Had an interesting conversation with a friend the other night about the Leadership Tapes and Galatians tapes.
I was fairly "new in the Word" (oh, gag) when I heard the tapes but was wondering if anyone here could outline what was on the tapes. I also wonder if any transcripts or copies were ever made of the tapes?
Just curious...
I wish I still had my notes.
In a nutshell it was LCM talking about Chris Geer and how TWI decided to break from him, and all the associated BS. It was basically LCM's spin on POP and the years from 86 to 89, it was in these tapes where the term "Fog Years" was coined to describe those years.
In those tapes LCM talks about the Greek word Terasso (spell?) that Lynn one of the Athletes spirit dancers showed him.
He talked about how he wrote a letter of resignation and how he decided to stay. blah blah blah. Spin spin spin.
Somewhere in my vast array of notes from many things, Way and non-Way, are many pages of notes from hearing those tapes. What I remember from them is that LCM outlined all the different devil spirits he thought Chris Geer had.
What kind of class was this anyway? It certainly wasn't a class that had any longevity in mind. Imagine sitting in this class another 20 years from now and hearing about how some spat between two wannabe MOGs...
It sounds like it was a commercial for LCM.
Please tell me that after sitting through this class there was another mass exodus...
What kind of class was this anyway? It certainly wasn't a class that had any longevity in mind. Imagine sitting in this class another 20 years from now and hearing about how some spat between two wannabe MOGs...
It sounds like it was a commercial for LCM.
Please tell me that after sitting through this class there was another mass exodus...
It wasn't a class it was a couple of Corps nights that the trustees released to a very restricted audience, Standing WC, Twig coordinators, Advanced class grads. The Leadership Tapes were a requirement for me to attend the Advanced Class Special in '92.
Seth - not to contradict you, but that's not entirely true (no disrespect intended, k?) Maybe you weren't aware of this but the tapes were also made available (gag again) to people who had left.
You read that right: People who had left TWI during the "fog" to join CG were invited to listen to the tapes.
Now, I think it was just the Galatians 2 tapes that they were blessed with (gag again).
After the tapes were over, they were asked to choose who they stood with.
By the way - this was how I met my first husband. He was one of the ones who had left TWI and yet came to the Limb Home in AL to hear the tapes. He got up to leave after the first ten minutes of the tapes and that's when the LC talked him down. In retrospect, I watched two men make bad decisions that day. (I was limb staff.)
I'm just wondering if there's copies of these things out there or transcripts - anyone know?? I remember more than just CG's name being mentioned too - there was a laundry list of "copouts" named, wasn't there?
I don't remember names other than Geer, Townsend and Caballero (the latter two having been on the BOT for a while) being mentioned, but it's been almost 18 years since I've heard them. Martindale made this all about one man: Geer.
I had been away from active participation for several years when Wierwille died, the PoP hit the fan etc. When I came back the only side of the story that I heard was the official Martindale side. I did not know about the "loyalty" letter, the letter from the Lynns, Dubofsky and the others whose names I can't recall, Finnegan & the whole state of New York and all the others.
Seth - not to contradict you, but that's not entirely true (no disrespect intended, k?) Maybe you weren't aware of this but the tapes were also made available (gag again) to people who had left.
You read that right: People who had left TWI during the "fog" to join CG were invited to listen to the tapes.
Now, I think it was just the Galatians 2 tapes that they were blessed with (gag again).
After the tapes were over, they were asked to choose who they stood with.
By the way - this was how I met my first husband. He was one of the ones who had left TWI and yet came to the Limb Home in AL to hear the tapes. He got up to leave after the first ten minutes of the tapes and that's when the LC talked him down. In retrospect, I watched two men make bad decisions that day. (I was limb staff.)
I'm just wondering if there's copies of these things out there or transcripts - anyone know?? I remember more than just CG's name being mentioned too - there was a laundry list of "copouts" named, wasn't there?
Chas is correct I had such an invitation, I did not care for the conditions though , it was a one on one presentation in a 10x10 room at Emporia you and the Limb Leader, you were to be met on arrival whisked away to the room where you sat through the tapes, upon completion you , you made your choice and were escorted off campus with no contact. After watching probably one of the most vocal critiques of Martindale in the area attend and come back a "New Believer" with a 180 opinion change after the brainwashing session I decided the interest was not worth the price.
Chas is correct I had such an invitation, I did not care for the conditions though , it was a one on one presentation in a 10x10 room at Emporia you and the Limb Leader, you were to be met on arrival whisked away to the room where you sat through the tapes, upon completion you , you made your choice and were escorted off campus with no contact. After watching probably one of the most vocal critiques of Martindale in the area attend and come back a "New Believer" with a 180 opinion change after the brainwashing session I decided the interest was not worth the price.
I recall several folks who were attending fellowships that not affiliated with TWI attending some of these sessions. I don't recall if any rejoined the fold.
Do you believe that this person was literally brainwashed? Were you concerned that you might be brainwashed into changing your opinion against your will?
I recall several folks who were attending fellowships that not affiliated with TWI attending some of these sessions. I don't recall if any rejoined the fold.
Do you believe that this person was literally brainwashed? Were you concerned that you might be brainwashed into changing your opinion against your will?
This person was a very vocal concerning the state of affairs in the way, Before he left he stated his mission was to counter the claims presented. He came back a different person. Yes I do believe he was brainwashed or spiritually influenced. And yes I decided that it was not worth the price to satisfy my curiosity.
So TWI was capable of and practiced brainwashing. In your opinion.
I suppose one could call it that. I'd specify in certain situations as well, If one complied. And I don't believe that they were the force behind it, so I'll refrain from giving the credit to them.
Please don't turn this thread into a pi$$ing contest between the two of you about whether or not TWI used brain washing tactics or if LCM wore boxers or briefs.
I'm close to doing to the two of you what my dad did when my brothers would fight: Take your shoes off and take it OUTSIDE. I don't care if it's -10F or that there's 6' of snow on the ground.
Please stay on topic - the subject is Leadership Tapes/Galatians Tapes.
I am talking about the Leadership Tapes. WD brought up a point about them that I find interesting: that they were used as a brainwashing tool for those who were against Martindale. I'm interested in his opinion on this.
I am talking about the Leadership Tapes. WD brought up a point about them that I find interesting: that they were used as a brainwashing tool for those who were against Martindale. I'm interested in his opinion on this.
It doesn't come across that way, especially the way the two of you are going back and forth about things.
If you wish to pursue the subject of brainwashing please start a new thread or even PM him about it....
If you wish to share what you know about what's on those tapes, which is the subject of this thread, then post on.
I recall several folks who were attending fellowships that not affiliated with TWI attending some of these sessions. I don't recall if any rejoined the fold.
Do you believe that this person was literally brainwashed? Were you concerned that you might be brainwashed into changing your opinion against your will?
This person was a very vocal concerning the state of affairs in the way, Before he left he stated his mission was to counter the claims presented. He came back a different person. Yes I do believe he was brainwashed or spiritually influenced. And yes I decided that it was not worth the price to satisfy my curiosity.
When I sat through these tapes I was on the fence. I had been inactive in TWI fellowships for several years and came back to TWI just before these tapes became available (although I understand that Way Corps had heard them earlier). When I was done with these tapes I was firmly in the Martindale camp, so maybe there is something to it being brainwashing.
I do not take that as a contradiction or disrespect, it's just more information. Usually "the present truth" is just the spin on the past truth. So what I was told I completely accept as being wrong information, after all it is TWI we are talking about.
Thanks for the update,
Seth
Seth - not to contradict you, but that's not entirely true (no disrespect intended, k?) Maybe you weren't aware of this but the tapes were also made available (gag again) to people who had left.
You read that right: People who had left TWI during the "fog" to join CG were invited to listen to the tapes.
Now, I think it was just the Galatians 2 tapes that they were blessed with (gag again).
After the tapes were over, they were asked to choose who they stood with.
The interesting thing about how the tapes were presented...
The Limbs all through the US were very splintered at the time. I happened to be in an area that had weathered the "fog" well because the LC's were pretty solid and really didn't sway or buy-in to some of stuff coming out of HQ. I think they were wise to take a "wait and see" approach with things but other areas weren't as fortunate (if you can call it that.)
I don't see how the Trunk of the USA was organized well enough anymore to pull off the objective of making sure that everyone heard the tapes....
Also, I believe that some tapes were for certain "levels" of believers and some were for others. I think someone mentioned that WC were privy to the first set of tapes but that "Joe Believer" was allowed to hear the other set of tapes. The incident I referred to in my first post was when "Joe Believer" was allowed to hear them. Additionally, there was a running of them to the people who had left and another running of the tapes to those who had stayed. Not sure the logic that TWI used in separating those two groups (Did I just use the word "logic" in the same sentence as TWI?)
I'm curious, and others may be too, as to what was on those tapes - all of them...
Is this the class where LCM describes a young lady who was talking to CG and then saw him shape-shift into VPW? That was soo creepy.
We were in the process of moving to NC and I had to stay behind to sell the house. When I arrived on a weekend in NC to spend the weekend with Mr. Garden, I was hustled off to listen to the tapes. B*** Gre**e was running the show.
I don't remember anything other than what Oakspear listed, and not as well as he, at that. I do remember a question and answer session, and that some guy asked about "all the women who were sexually abused by VPW and what was the ministry going to do to help them?" BG just went off on him, said he had had extensive interviews with so-and-so (and either he or the guy asking the question named a name) and this woman was possessed with a fantasy spirit and some other blather. I just sat stunned. I wish I had jumped in, but I didn't.
I was just a little TC from SC and didn't know squat about what had been going on for many years after that.
Is this the class where LCM describes a young lady who was talking to CG and then saw him shape-shift into VPW? That was soo creepy.
WG.......yes, in these tapes LCM describes how Howard & Don's long-time secretary, Co0kie L0vested, saw CGeer's face morph into victor paul wierwille. LCM goes on to describe that this familiar spirit in Geer was "seeing what it could get away with" in Co0kie's presence.
Martindale sure had a way of describing how them devil spirits worked. He seemed to have "up close and personal" experience with the dark side of things.
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Seth R.
I wish I still had my notes.
In a nutshell it was LCM talking about Chris Geer and how TWI decided to break from him, and all the associated BS. It was basically LCM's spin on POP and the years from 86 to 89, it was in these tapes where the term "Fog Years" was coined to describe those years.
In those tapes LCM talks about the Greek word Terasso (spell?) that Lynn one of the Athletes spirit dancers showed him.
He talked about how he wrote a letter of resignation and how he decided to stay. blah blah blah. Spin spin spin.
Seth
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Oakspear
τάράσσω (tarassō) was translated "trouble" in the KJV
Strong's Definition is:
1. to agitate, trouble (a thing, by the movement of its parts to and fro)
2. to cause one inward commotion, take away his calmness of mind, disturb his equanimity
3. to disquiet, make restless
4. to stir up
5. to trouble
6 1. to strike one's spirit with fear and dread
7. to render anxious or distressed
8. to perplex the mind of one by suggesting scruples or doubts
the second set of tapes was about the "miserable comforters" of Job and became in an expanded form the Defeating the Adversary class
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DogLover
Somewhere in my vast array of notes from many things, Way and non-Way, are many pages of notes from hearing those tapes. What I remember from them is that LCM outlined all the different devil spirits he thought Chris Geer had.
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doojable
I just have to comment here...
What kind of class was this anyway? It certainly wasn't a class that had any longevity in mind. Imagine sitting in this class another 20 years from now and hearing about how some spat between two wannabe MOGs...
It sounds like it was a commercial for LCM.
Please tell me that after sitting through this class there was another mass exodus...
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Seth R.
It wasn't a class it was a couple of Corps nights that the trustees released to a very restricted audience, Standing WC, Twig coordinators, Advanced class grads. The Leadership Tapes were a requirement for me to attend the Advanced Class Special in '92.
Seth
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doojable
UGH! That's even sicker.
But it makes sense in a twi way... make sure everyone is in lockstep.
Still - to devote corps nights to that kind of dribble and then have the audacity to use any thing even closely related to the Bible in the title...
As the stomach turns...
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Jim
LOL, thanks.
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ChasUFarley
Seth - not to contradict you, but that's not entirely true (no disrespect intended, k?) Maybe you weren't aware of this but the tapes were also made available (gag again) to people who had left.
You read that right: People who had left TWI during the "fog" to join CG were invited to listen to the tapes.
Now, I think it was just the Galatians 2 tapes that they were blessed with (gag again).
After the tapes were over, they were asked to choose who they stood with.
By the way - this was how I met my first husband. He was one of the ones who had left TWI and yet came to the Limb Home in AL to hear the tapes. He got up to leave after the first ten minutes of the tapes and that's when the LC talked him down. In retrospect, I watched two men make bad decisions that day. (I was limb staff.)
I'm just wondering if there's copies of these things out there or transcripts - anyone know?? I remember more than just CG's name being mentioned too - there was a laundry list of "copouts" named, wasn't there?
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Oakspear
I don't remember names other than Geer, Townsend and Caballero (the latter two having been on the BOT for a while) being mentioned, but it's been almost 18 years since I've heard them. Martindale made this all about one man: Geer.
I had been away from active participation for several years when Wierwille died, the PoP hit the fan etc. When I came back the only side of the story that I heard was the official Martindale side. I did not know about the "loyalty" letter, the letter from the Lynns, Dubofsky and the others whose names I can't recall, Finnegan & the whole state of New York and all the others.
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WhiteDove
Chas is correct I had such an invitation, I did not care for the conditions though , it was a one on one presentation in a 10x10 room at Emporia you and the Limb Leader, you were to be met on arrival whisked away to the room where you sat through the tapes, upon completion you , you made your choice and were escorted off campus with no contact. After watching probably one of the most vocal critiques of Martindale in the area attend and come back a "New Believer" with a 180 opinion change after the brainwashing session I decided the interest was not worth the price.
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Oakspear
Do you believe that this person was literally brainwashed? Were you concerned that you might be brainwashed into changing your opinion against your will?
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WhiteDove
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Oakspear
So TWI was capable of and practiced brainwashing. In your opinion.
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WhiteDove
I suppose one could call it that. I'd specify in certain situations as well, If one complied. And I don't believe that they were the force behind it, so I'll refrain from giving the credit to them.
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Oakspear
Who do you think was the force behind it?
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ChasUFarley
Please don't turn this thread into a pi$$ing contest between the two of you about whether or not TWI used brain washing tactics or if LCM wore boxers or briefs.
I'm close to doing to the two of you what my dad did when my brothers would fight: Take your shoes off and take it OUTSIDE. I don't care if it's -10F or that there's 6' of snow on the ground.
Please stay on topic - the subject is Leadership Tapes/Galatians Tapes.
THANK YOU! :)
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Oakspear
I am talking about the Leadership Tapes. WD brought up a point about them that I find interesting: that they were used as a brainwashing tool for those who were against Martindale. I'm interested in his opinion on this.
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ChasUFarley
It doesn't come across that way, especially the way the two of you are going back and forth about things.
If you wish to pursue the subject of brainwashing please start a new thread or even PM him about it....
If you wish to share what you know about what's on those tapes, which is the subject of this thread, then post on.
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Oakspear
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Seth R.
I do not take that as a contradiction or disrespect, it's just more information. Usually "the present truth" is just the spin on the past truth. So what I was told I completely accept as being wrong information, after all it is TWI we are talking about.
Thanks for the update,
Seth
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ChasUFarley
The interesting thing about how the tapes were presented...
The Limbs all through the US were very splintered at the time. I happened to be in an area that had weathered the "fog" well because the LC's were pretty solid and really didn't sway or buy-in to some of stuff coming out of HQ. I think they were wise to take a "wait and see" approach with things but other areas weren't as fortunate (if you can call it that.)
I don't see how the Trunk of the USA was organized well enough anymore to pull off the objective of making sure that everyone heard the tapes....
Also, I believe that some tapes were for certain "levels" of believers and some were for others. I think someone mentioned that WC were privy to the first set of tapes but that "Joe Believer" was allowed to hear the other set of tapes. The incident I referred to in my first post was when "Joe Believer" was allowed to hear them. Additionally, there was a running of them to the people who had left and another running of the tapes to those who had stayed. Not sure the logic that TWI used in separating those two groups (Did I just use the word "logic" in the same sentence as TWI?)
I'm curious, and others may be too, as to what was on those tapes - all of them...
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Oakspear
I heard both sets of tapes and was never Way Corps. It's times like these when I wished I'd have kept my notes.
The main subjects that I recall where:
There's probably more, but that's what I can dredge out of my memory
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Watered Garden
Is this the class where LCM describes a young lady who was talking to CG and then saw him shape-shift into VPW? That was soo creepy.
We were in the process of moving to NC and I had to stay behind to sell the house. When I arrived on a weekend in NC to spend the weekend with Mr. Garden, I was hustled off to listen to the tapes. B*** Gre**e was running the show.
I don't remember anything other than what Oakspear listed, and not as well as he, at that. I do remember a question and answer session, and that some guy asked about "all the women who were sexually abused by VPW and what was the ministry going to do to help them?" BG just went off on him, said he had had extensive interviews with so-and-so (and either he or the guy asking the question named a name) and this woman was possessed with a fantasy spirit and some other blather. I just sat stunned. I wish I had jumped in, but I didn't.
I was just a little TC from SC and didn't know squat about what had been going on for many years after that.
WG
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skyrider
WG.......yes, in these tapes LCM describes how Howard & Don's long-time secretary, Co0kie L0vested, saw CGeer's face morph into victor paul wierwille. LCM goes on to describe that this familiar spirit in Geer was "seeing what it could get away with" in Co0kie's presence.
Martindale sure had a way of describing how them devil spirits worked. He seemed to have "up close and personal" experience with the dark side of things.
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