Personally, I think this discussion of guest speakers is pointless. Just another rabbit hole to run down...but since the dogs are loose anyway...
Once the speakers had spoken and recorded, their services were no longer required. Their words were safely tucked away in the "vault of truth" (ummm errrrr BRC) and now were part of all that vp had known and put together.
For the record, I don't recall him saying outright that he had cornered the market on truth - per say...
What I heard was, "We don't know all the truth, but we know Him who is Truth." (Yea right... <_< )
But if you were in any meeting where that was said, the feeling of "... and we're better than anyone at knowing Him," was almost palpable.
Perhaps his loyalty was debatable, his committment, but not his affiliation.
John has explained what he is referring to when he says that Wierwille claimed to be the only source for truth. None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory.
By the 70's, when most of us got involved. TWI was, according to Wierwille, the only show in town.
My p'ernt is this - PFAL was the sum and substance of "all the truth" that he suggested anyone needed to know. That it wasn't "all the truth" on all topics, subjects and questions is obvious I think, but I'm sure that he felt it was the basic material to work from that would consistently and reliably direct any future efforts to continue down the road to "all the truth". He also said in many informal settings, and some formal ones like the SNS's that he didn't feel he or anyone would ever capture it "all" but, keep workin' kids, etc. etc.etc.
IMHO it's missing the point to leap up, point a finger at John (or anyone esle) and shout "Aha! You said he had all the truth, he only said that he had most truth. C'mon...Wierwille wasn't exactly referring us to other churches in our areas armed with PFAL now was he?
IMHO it's missing the point to leap up, point a finger at John (or anyone esle) and shout "Aha! You said he had all the truth, he only said that he had most truth. C'mon...Wierwille wasn't exactly referring us to other churches in our areas armed with PFAL now was he?
Of course not.
You hopefully understand that wasn't my p'ernt. VPW clearly wanted everyone to join the Way Ministry, and claimed to have the tightest grip on "truth" that was available. I know it's important to some of the people here to get the who/what/where/when/what time nailed down. Have fun.
You hopefully understand that wasn't my p'ernt. VPW clearly wanted everyone to join the Way Ministry, and claimed to have the tightest grip on "truth" that was available.
Precisely. If god had taught VPW the word like it hadn't been taught since the first century then it follows that he had the tightest grip on the truth. Word over the world was his program to make sure that everyone joined TWI and ended up under his, and his henchmen's, tight grip of control.
On the Princeton thing - I think that's an argument others take him to task over, but I never heard him imply that PTS was "Princeton University". Others often make immediate note that "it's not THE Princeton, that's a lie", but I don't think a lie is told until someone tells it and I don't think he ever passed it off as such.
Perhaps his loyalty was debatable, his committment, but not his affiliation.
John has explained what he is referring to when he says that Wierwille claimed to be the only source for truth. None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory.
By the 70's, when most of us got involved. TWI was, according to Wierwille, the only show in town.
Ok, VP was a pastor for the E & R church whose loyalty and or commitment to the church was questionable. and was at the same time developing another ministry that he later resigned from his pastor position to undertake.
John has explained what he is referring to when he says that Wierwille claimed to be the only source for truth. None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory
Wierwille clearly is saying that no one since the 12 apostles knew the Word as VP did, and no one else was taught directly from God as VP was, nor heard God's audible voice as VP heard it..
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Above is what John said "the only one" John was not there ,however Mrs. Wierwille was, there is no mixed message in what she wrote. John may wish to think None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory ,because it agrees with his mission. But the one who was there an eyewitness no less tells us
Mrs. Wierwille writes in her book Born Again To ServeThe Spiritual 40 club was made up of people interested in inviting speakers whom Dr. Wierwille believed had a message that was vital and from whom we could learn more about God and His Word.
Such as Bishop K.C. Pillai who taught on the renewed mind
By the way I just pulled the tape and here is the introduction from that tape.....
I invited again this year to present to us, the one and only man I know in the United States or in the world who has such a vast knowledge of the Orientalisms the Customs Mannerisms of the Word of God . A man with whom I have spent hours and hours ,weeks and weeks. One whom has in past years helped me very much in understanding the Orientalisms the Customs, Mannerisms. And that is our good friend Bishop K.C.Pillai
Recorded 6/15/69
Apparently VP thought that he helped him to learn , Gee I wonder why that was ,when he was according to John the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one. One would think that the bishop would be sitting at VP's feet learning the truth from him.
But it appears that VP invited him back not once, but again to share more truth. Sounds like a man that did not think he was the only one to have all the truth. But of course don't let the facts get in the way of the mission. Don't believe someone who was there to collaborate the facts , nope just believe a Jonny come lately with a agenda, surely he knows the all truth.
Yep some 27 years after the famous quote it sure looks like VP is still inviting people to teach truth what a strange thing for someone who knows it all to do..........
Bishop Pillai on "Orientalisms" and "The Renewed Mind???
Doesn't sound like a very extensive list to me.
Maybe Pillai should have enlightened him on the real history and meaning of tithing, eh?
There is more, But by the way what proof have you offered for your position I think I missed it..... we have audio from the man himself, a written record from his wife two different events. Yeah its pretty easy to send someone searching for sound samples and quotes so you can dismiss them with .....WHAT Is there no more? At least some of us have something..... anything...... to back up our claims. So where is it Waysider ? lets see what you have. Because I proved my point with factual record. Two is quite enough to disprove Johns theory. besides I would not want to further embarrass you when you have nothing but smart remarks to offer in return. You got nothing..... But I'm sure some of your pals will be along to try and bail you out shortly.
Tithing(quite a different thing than free-will giving) is simply not a requirement of the NT church or the church today.
Yet, Wierwille, who promoted himself as being a World Class authority on the Bible, failed to acknowledge that and, instead, insisted it was an absolute debt that was necessary to pay in order to expect any kind of blessing from God. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
List 100 speakers if you think it makes your point.
It won't change the fact that Wierwille distorted the true meaning of the tithe in a way that would work to his material benefit.
I was just feeling silly, Oaks. How often is that gonna happen?
The VPster - hopefully he was nicer to these "guest speakers" in the earlier years than he was later on.
After PFAL was off and running there were scant few "guests". And anyone he did have in, he'd have some opportunity to rip 'em a new one over something. Some aspect of what they did that wasn't "right on" with the Word and that re established himself as the Truth Compass or something.
It's just the way he was, an aspect of his personality IMO more than anything else - he wouldn't be challenged and really took exception to anyone that would seem to usurp his position of leadership. When Wayfers would ooh and aah too much over something. You could set your clock by it - within 24 hours - they'd be all screwed up, possessed, and workin' for the devil. I got used to it and just kept my own counsel on it.
K.C. Pillai and a few others were exceptions. VPW definitely had a warm spot for K.C. Few others. By the sounds of it they hit it off and K.C. had the right mix of personality and value that VPW didn't burn that bridge. But anyone who was in the Way through the 60's and 70's knows he could cut his nose off to spite his leg - he simply didn't play well with others.
Tithing(quite a different thing than free-will giving) is simply not a requirement of the NT church or the church today.
Yet, Wierwille, who promoted himself as being a World Class authority on the Bible, failed to acknowledge that and, instead, insisted it was an absolute debt that was necessary to pay in order to expect any kind of blessing from God. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
List 100 speakers if you think it makes your point.
It won't change the fact that Wierwille distorted the true meaning of the tithe in a way that would work to his material benefit.
We don't disagree on the subject of the tithe. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
We do however disagree on the subject of John's claim which is what I gave documentation on. But then you probably knew that from the posts . I never indicated that they supported the tithe ,or had anything to do with the subject of the tithe for that matter. I was clear in what I was speaking to and it was John's claim only. Offering another subject that someone was wrong on does not however make your case for supporting another statement like for instance the one John offered. Clearly it is two different subjects. Because VP may have been wrong on the tithe does not mean that John is right in his claim VP is the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Speaking of wrong ,I guess we can add John to the list. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
If you care to offfer some documentation on why you believe that claim I'm listening.....
We don't disagree on the subject of the tithe. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
We do however disagree on the subject of John's claim which is what I gave documentation on. But then you probably knew that from the posts . I never indicated that they supported the tithe ,or had anything to do with the subject of the tithe for that matter. I was clear in what I was speaking to and it was John's claim only. Offering another subject that someone was wrong on does not however make your case for supporting another statement like for instance the one John offered. Clearly it is two different subjects. Because VP may have been wrong on the tithe does not mean that John is right in his claim VP is the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Speaking of wrong ,I guess we can add John to the list. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
If you care to offfer some documentation on why you believe that claim I'm listening.....[/color]
The subject of this thread is Tithing & the new Way of Abundance Class.
If you want to start a separate thread to discuss the other matters, you are welcome to do so.(IMO)
Most churches believe tithing is a requirement of the body. Most churches believe that blessings are tied to tithing. VPW did not have the lock on that. Where he went over the top is the insistence that 10% was the bare minimum. My main beef with tithing to TWI was the lack of accountability and oversight and the notion that the organization was above the need to be accountable. When I saw how top leaders lived in comparison to the believers and the need for people to give thousands for the building of the auditorium on top of tithes, I could only come to the conclusion that TWI was not a good steward of the monies received, and gave accordingly.
Most churches believe tithing is a requirement of the body. Most churches believe that blessings are tied to tithing. VPW did not have the lock on that.
I certainly agree with you on that point.
However, that line of thinking (the tithe being required) is simply not accurate in a Biblical sense.
Wierwille held himself out to be a world class authority on Biblical accuracy.
(" If it's not right, I'll tell you"---VPW)
Either he wasn't the the authority he thought he was or he used common misunderstanding of the subject to satisfy his own agenda. Neither option sheds a favorable light on his work.
However, that line of thinking (the tithe being required) is simply not accurate in a Biblical sense.
Wierwille held himself out to be a world class authority on Biblical accuracy.
(" If it's not right, I'll tell you"---VPW)
Either he wasn't the the authority he thought he was or he used common misunderstanding of the subject to satisfy his own agenda. Neither option sheds a favorable light on his work.
Exactly right. It was on this issue that I started taking issue with his authority and his knowledge of the Bible. It was incredibly self serving.
What I don't get is how all the "workman of the Word" did not see that. There were a few occasions where we were talked to about our level of giving and I point blank said we would be happy to do it as soon as someone finds the chapter and verse in this administration that states the necessity. Until they could do that, we would stick to sharing our abundance - not sharing our need in hopes of receiving abundance.
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Personally, I think this discussion of guest speakers is pointless. Just another rabbit hole to run down...but since the dogs are loose anyway...
Once the speakers had spoken and recorded, their services were no longer required. Their words were safely tucked away in the "vault of truth" (ummm errrrr BRC) and now were part of all that vp had known and put together.
For the record, I don't recall him saying outright that he had cornered the market on truth - per say...
What I heard was, "We don't know all the truth, but we know Him who is Truth." (Yea right... <_< )
But if you were in any meeting where that was said, the feeling of "... and we're better than anyone at knowing Him," was almost palpable.
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Oakspear
WD:
Perhaps his loyalty was debatable, his committment, but not his affiliation.
John has explained what he is referring to when he says that Wierwille claimed to be the only source for truth. None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory.
By the 70's, when most of us got involved. TWI was, according to Wierwille, the only show in town.
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Oakspear
Socks' point bears repeating IMHO:
IMHO it's missing the point to leap up, point a finger at John (or anyone esle) and shout "Aha! You said he had all the truth, he only said that he had most truth. C'mon...Wierwille wasn't exactly referring us to other churches in our areas armed with PFAL now was he?Link to comment
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WordWolf
The Way Magazine/ September-October 1986
"The Joy Of Serving" Victor Paul Wierwille May 12, 1985
"I think that what has made The Way Ministry so wonderful all
over the world, generally speaking, is that we have a lot of the
love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation among our people
and that we are serving our people. So every Twig coordinator,
Twig Area or Country coordinator, anybody that blesses people,
even if you are not a Twig coordinator, you ought to master this
so that you can help somebody in the shop or factory; or wherever
you are, so that you have got answers for them. Outside of this
ministry I've seen very few answers. If we knew where there were
more, we'd go get them! That's right."
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frank123lol
Even inside this ministry,there were very few answers,more like browbeating,conform,conform.
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socks
IMHO it's missing the point to leap up, point a finger at John (or anyone esle) and shout "Aha! You said he had all the truth, he only said that he had most truth. C'mon...Wierwille wasn't exactly referring us to other churches in our areas armed with PFAL now was he?
Of course not.
You hopefully understand that wasn't my p'ernt. VPW clearly wanted everyone to join the Way Ministry, and claimed to have the tightest grip on "truth" that was available. I know it's important to some of the people here to get the who/what/where/when/what time nailed down. Have fun.
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RumRunner
Precisely. If god had taught VPW the word like it hadn't been taught since the first century then it follows that he had the tightest grip on the truth. Word over the world was his program to make sure that everyone joined TWI and ended up under his, and his henchmen's, tight grip of control.
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excathedra
scanning... scanning..... glossing.....
do you know if he ever denied it publicly ?
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WhiteDove
Ok, VP was a pastor for the E & R church whose loyalty and or commitment to the church was questionable. and was at the same time developing another ministry that he later resigned from his pastor position to undertake.
Above is what John said "the only one" John was not there ,however Mrs. Wierwille was, there is no mixed message in what she wrote. John may wish to think None of us really know what he was claiming in 1942, because his records are contradictory ,because it agrees with his mission. But the one who was there an eyewitness no less tells us
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waysider
Are there any SNS tapes that feature these speakers?
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WhiteDove
Yes There are.......
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waysider
Such as---?
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WhiteDove
Such as Bishop K.C. Pillai who taught on the renewed mind
By the way I just pulled the tape and here is the introduction from that tape.....
I invited again this year to present to us, the one and only man I know in the United States or in the world who has such a vast knowledge of the Orientalisms the Customs Mannerisms of the Word of God . A man with whom I have spent hours and hours ,weeks and weeks. One whom has in past years helped me very much in understanding the Orientalisms the Customs, Mannerisms. And that is our good friend Bishop K.C.Pillai
Recorded 6/15/69
Apparently VP thought that he helped him to learn , Gee I wonder why that was ,when he was according to John the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one. One would think that the bishop would be sitting at VP's feet learning the truth from him.
Scratch.. scratch ..scratch... :blink: :blink: :blink:
But it appears that VP invited him back not once, but again to share more truth. Sounds like a man that did not think he was the only one to have all the truth. But of course don't let the facts get in the way of the mission. Don't believe someone who was there to collaborate the facts , nope just believe a Jonny come lately with a agenda, surely he knows the all truth.
Yep some 27 years after the famous quote it sure looks like VP is still inviting people to teach truth what a strange thing for someone who knows it all to do..........
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waysider
That's it???
Bishop Pillai on "Orientalisms" and "The Renewed Mind???
Doesn't sound like a very extensive list to me.
Maybe Pillai should have enlightened him on the real history and meaning of tithing, eh?
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WhiteDove
There is more, But by the way what proof have you offered for your position I think I missed it..... we have audio from the man himself, a written record from his wife two different events. Yeah its pretty easy to send someone searching for sound samples and quotes so you can dismiss them with .....WHAT Is there no more? At least some of us have something..... anything...... to back up our claims. So where is it Waysider ? lets see what you have. Because I proved my point with factual record. Two is quite enough to disprove Johns theory. besides I would not want to further embarrass you when you have nothing but smart remarks to offer in return. You got nothing..... But I'm sure some of your pals will be along to try and bail you out shortly.
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WhiteDove
Enie minie minie mo
Lets see what J.E Stiles has to say.
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Oakspear
Do you have a ministry that I can send some money to?
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waysider
Smart remarks?
Is that what you think this is about?
Tithing(quite a different thing than free-will giving) is simply not a requirement of the NT church or the church today.
Yet, Wierwille, who promoted himself as being a World Class authority on the Bible, failed to acknowledge that and, instead, insisted it was an absolute debt that was necessary to pay in order to expect any kind of blessing from God. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
List 100 speakers if you think it makes your point.
It won't change the fact that Wierwille distorted the true meaning of the tithe in a way that would work to his material benefit.
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socks
I was just feeling silly, Oaks. How often is that gonna happen?
The VPster - hopefully he was nicer to these "guest speakers" in the earlier years than he was later on.
After PFAL was off and running there were scant few "guests". And anyone he did have in, he'd have some opportunity to rip 'em a new one over something. Some aspect of what they did that wasn't "right on" with the Word and that re established himself as the Truth Compass or something.
It's just the way he was, an aspect of his personality IMO more than anything else - he wouldn't be challenged and really took exception to anyone that would seem to usurp his position of leadership. When Wayfers would ooh and aah too much over something. You could set your clock by it - within 24 hours - they'd be all screwed up, possessed, and workin' for the devil. I got used to it and just kept my own counsel on it.
K.C. Pillai and a few others were exceptions. VPW definitely had a warm spot for K.C. Few others. By the sounds of it they hit it off and K.C. had the right mix of personality and value that VPW didn't burn that bridge. But anyone who was in the Way through the 60's and 70's knows he could cut his nose off to spite his leg - he simply didn't play well with others.
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WhiteDove
We do however disagree on the subject of John's claim which is what I gave documentation on. But then you probably knew that from the posts . I never indicated that they supported the tithe ,or had anything to do with the subject of the tithe for that matter. I was clear in what I was speaking to and it was John's claim only. Offering another subject that someone was wrong on does not however make your case for supporting another statement like for instance the one John offered. Clearly it is two different subjects. Because VP may have been wrong on the tithe does not mean that John is right in his claim VP is the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Speaking of wrong ,I guess we can add John to the list. He was wrong. Plain and simple.
If you care to offfer some documentation on why you believe that claim I'm listening.....
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waysider
The subject of this thread is Tithing & the new Way of Abundance Class.
If you want to start a separate thread to discuss the other matters, you are welcome to do so.(IMO)
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Tzaia
Most churches believe tithing is a requirement of the body. Most churches believe that blessings are tied to tithing. VPW did not have the lock on that. Where he went over the top is the insistence that 10% was the bare minimum. My main beef with tithing to TWI was the lack of accountability and oversight and the notion that the organization was above the need to be accountable. When I saw how top leaders lived in comparison to the believers and the need for people to give thousands for the building of the auditorium on top of tithes, I could only come to the conclusion that TWI was not a good steward of the monies received, and gave accordingly.
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waysider
I certainly agree with you on that point.
However, that line of thinking (the tithe being required) is simply not accurate in a Biblical sense.
Wierwille held himself out to be a world class authority on Biblical accuracy.
(" If it's not right, I'll tell you"---VPW)
Either he wasn't the the authority he thought he was or he used common misunderstanding of the subject to satisfy his own agenda. Neither option sheds a favorable light on his work.
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Tzaia
Exactly right. It was on this issue that I started taking issue with his authority and his knowledge of the Bible. It was incredibly self serving.
What I don't get is how all the "workman of the Word" did not see that. There were a few occasions where we were talked to about our level of giving and I point blank said we would be happy to do it as soon as someone finds the chapter and verse in this administration that states the necessity. Until they could do that, we would stick to sharing our abundance - not sharing our need in hopes of receiving abundance.
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