And don't forget the Spiritual 40 Club. Mrs. Wierwille writes in her book Born Again To ServeThe Spiritual 40 club was made up of people interested in inviting speakers whom Dr. Wierwille believed had a message that was vital and from whom we could learn more about God and His Word. Sounds like he believed that others had truth to offer as well.
It would be interesting to see just how many non-TWI "guest speakers" actually spoke to TWI audiences over the years.
(Excluding political pitchmen, gun safety instructors, etc.)
The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor, not when he was fronting TWI.
Good point, Oakspear.....hadn't really thought of it like that.
So....once veepee stole B.G. Leonard's class in '53 and started digging into Bullinger's work (when dr. higgins sat in 'The Gifts of the Spirit' class and noted bullinger research books)....wierwille was OFF TO THE RACES FRONTING HIS 'NEWFOUND' INSIDE TRACK TO GOD.
Heck, wierwille was noted as having 'twi-board meetings' while he was still an E&R church pastor....like he couldn't wait to strike out on his own.
So, then, it was in the pre-gas pump era, before he cornered the market on "truth".
In later years Wierwille said the gas pump incident took place in 1942. The Spiritual 40 Club took place somewhere between then and when he left his denomination.
I don't think that Wierwille never acknowledged that he could learn from others. I think it's clear that he did seek out others' teachings in his early days. However, there came a point when that stopped. Was it when he left the church? When he filmed PFAL? When the money started rolling in? I don't know, but most of us were told that we were involved in a TWI where "the Word was taught like it hadn't been since the First Century".
I believe another inaccurate statement is that twi taught they were the ONLY and SOLE place for truth. My recollection is they were claiming the BEST source, not the ONLY source. I believe CSBP supports that idea. Also, VPW said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", so logically there is lots of truth elsewhere since he got lots of his stuff from outside TWI. Never heard or saw in writing the claim that TWI is the ONLY place there is truth, I think that is someone's fantasy and wishful thinking and my wish is that folks would be more accurate when describing twi and Wierwille's beliefs.
Oldies, it appears to me that you are splitting hairs.
I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth.
I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination.
Intentional or not this is a strawman argument and a logical fallacy.
I don't think that Wierwille never acknowledged that he could learn from others. I think it's clear that he did seek out others' teachings in his early days. However, there came a point when that stopped. Was it when he left the church? When he filmed PFAL? When the money started rolling in? I don't know, but most of us were told that we were involved in a TWI where "the Word was taught like it hadn't been since the First Century".
But still that does not translate into VP telling us "I am the ONLY source for truth" as Dr. Juedes seems to be repeating. He did not. It is not logical considering all of the facts that prove otherwise. BEST yes, ONLY no.
But still that does not translate into VP telling us "I am the ONLY source for truth" as Dr. Juedes seems to be repeating. He did not. It is not logical considering all of the facts that prove otherwise. BEST yes, ONLY no.
You're right, the staement that you quoted does not, but this one does:
"I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth.
I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. "
I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth.
I disagree that it is correct to claim that VPW claimed he had the whole truth. Thats ridiculous. How could anyone in their right mind claim that they have the WHOLE truth?
I believe that VPW claimed and promoted that he believed he had the MOST truth out of any religious group out there and I believe the use of words like ONLY truth and WHOLE truth to describe what I believe was portrayed as THE MOST truth are erroneous fallicies.
I tend to disagree with you OM- because no matter what was said officially, there were many more things whispered and taught even by der victoid himself that seemed to say that vp was right- until he decided he wasn't right - and he never said he wasn't right.
I recall in Adv CL '79 vp saying talking about Bullinger and saying something to the effect of,
"I know he was a Trinitarian - but I just know he wasn't one by the end of his life. He couldn't have been! With what he knew... I just know..."
Vp wasn't claiming revelation, but he was claiming that surely someone like Bulinger, that he had put forth as an authority (and had plagiarized freely,) must have come to the same conclusion he did regarding the Trinity.
Mrs. Wierwille writes in her book Born Again To ServeThe Spiritual 40 club was made up of people interested in inviting speakers whom Dr. Wierwille believed had a message that was vital
and "for the sake of accuracy" let's not forget he didn't REALLY have a doctorate. A sham piece of paper that might find a better use in an outhouse than hanging in more esthetic surroundings.
Whether he ever used the actual words ONLY or BEST is really a moot point.
He promoted TWI and what he, VP, personally had to offer as a product that was unparalleled.
But, for the sake of bringing the topic back into the discussion, tithing is, in fact, not a requirement of The Church, now or in the NT. Making a statement like "Don't pray for prosperity if you don't tithe"---VPW, demonstrates either an ignorance of the history and meaning of the tithe or a blatant disregard for accuracy.
I think it also demonstrates the unparalled greed of the one who made that statement. How many garbage bags full of money does one need to wallow in before one is satisfied?
I disagree that it is correct to claim that VPW claimed he had the whole truth. Thats ridiculous. How could anyone in their right mind claim that they have the WHOLE truth?
I believe that VPW claimed and promoted that he believed he had the MOST truth out of any religious group out there and I believe the use of words like ONLY truth and WHOLE truth to describe what I believe was portrayed as THE MOST truth are erroneous fallicies.
MOST yes. ONLY and WHOLE no.
Holy crap...let me sharpen my razor so I can get these hairs split a little better.
the MOST truth = no one had any more of the truth than he did.
Here's how I'm using the terms "whole truth" and "whole package of truth":
I agree that it would be "ridiculous" to say that anyone could claim to have the WHOLE truth if "whole truth" was defined as, say, everything that God knew, or some other equally unattainable (by man) standard. Do you really think that that's what I'm saying? Wierwille promoted his teachings as having been taught to him by God as it hadn't been taught since the First Century, and that no one else was "accurate" on every one of his major points. Wierwille was very clear that getting your doctrine from other denominations would guarantee that you would be taught error in one or more categories.
The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor, not when he was fronting TWI.
Oak
The claim was
TWI celebrates as its anniversary the day VPW says
"That's when He (Father) spoke to me audibly... He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century" (The Way Living in Love p. 178)
Wierwille clearly is saying that no one since the 12 apostles knew the Word as VP did, and no one else was taught directly from God as VP was, nor heard God's audible voice as VP heard it..
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
The event mentioned as you noted was in 1942. Who VP worked for is not in dispute, and not part of the claim the time frame is as the quote specifies. From 1942 on.
The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor starting in January of 1952 Starr Daily was the first speaker. It's debatable as to his affiliation with the church at this point as they were already publishing Way magazines around this time. And even Starr's presentation was not held at the E & R church but at a Methodist church that VP borrowed for the occasion. Technically you are correct as VP did not resign until 1957 from the E & R church.
I don't know by what name if any they referred to it when speakers came in to teach later on but the process continued into the 60s and 70s I have a tape (actually now a CD) of Bishop Pillai teaching The Renewed Mind at The Way International in 1969 as well as some others in the 70s . Regardless of the church affiliation or name of the program the claim made was that after the quote in 1942 VP was the only one who knew all the truth Who he did or did not work for is not the claim made and as such is a distraction or straw man argument.
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Had that been the true then he would have had no reason to have others come to teach, since he already "knew all the truth" He would have simply taught it himself, yet Mrs. Wierwille clearly records that VP believed these speakers had a vital message and we could learn from them .That does not sound like someone who thought that they had all the truth from 1942 on as it was now ten years later and he was still learning. John's statement is incorrect and it's not the first one. In and of itself it is not a big deal we all misspeak, the problem and I personally believe it shows motive, is that these errors are never corrected. Normally when one misspeaks they just correct the error , and yet it appears that John does not seem to care to do so. Personally I think that shows his bias toward the truth, say whatever and if it is not true then just make it up as you go along. The record is clear that for some 30 years, after the point where John maintains that VP claimed he knew all the truth his actions did not coincide with John's claim VP clearly was learning more truth by inviting speakers to teach at whatever location.
The record is clear that for some 30 years, after the point where John maintains that VP claimed he knew all the truth his actions did not coincide with John's claim VP clearly was learning more truth by inviting speakers to teach at whatever location.
Can you name, let's say, 10 or 15?
I mean, we're talking 30 years here!
Ought to be an easy list to compile, no?
I can tell you exactly how many guest speakers addressed Fellow Laborers (a two year, in residence program at a "whatever location") regarding Biblical matters during my time there. ------------Zero.
I can tell you exactly how many guest speakers addressed Fellow Laborers (a two year, in residence program at a "whatever location") regarding Biblical matters during my time there. ------------Zero.
And? The number of people is not in question? Nor is who? Those are straw man arguments that have zero to do with the claim made which is the issue being addressed as true or false. how many guest speakers addressed Fellow Laborers was never any part of the claim. Neither was the price of eggs in China.....No one ever spoke in my area as a guest either not the point. The claim is specific after the 1942 quote VP clearly said
that he was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Wierwille clearly is saying that no one since the 12 apostles knew the Word as VP did, and no one else was taught directly from God as VP was, nor heard God's audible voice as VP heard it..
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
If he learned one thing, from one speaker then he did not know all the truth..... I don't believe that VP ever indicated that he did. As such the claim is false.
The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor starting in January of 1952 Starr Daily was the first speaker. It's debatable as to his affiliation with the church at this point as they were already publishing Way magazines around this time. And even Starr's presentation was not held at the E & R church but at a Methodist church that VP borrowed for the occasion. Technically you are correct as VP did not resign until 1957 from the E & R church.
What's "debatable" about his affiliation with the E&R Church from 1952-1957..???
Guess I need to dig out Mrs. Wierwille's book again from the attic..........but I distinctly remember her stating that when vpw, don and mrs. arrived home from B.G. Leonard's class in 1953, veepee went to work in signing up friends and neighbors and this first "pfal class" was run at the E&R Church.
Plus, the correspondence during the "India trip" was TO the E&R congregants.
Hmm...I feel kind of silly mentioning this, but as a kind of checkpoint - the "gas pump" story goes that God "told" VPW that "He" would teach him the "Word" as it hadn't been known for x000 number of years, if "he" VPW, would "teach" it.
To say he knew, or had or whatever "all the truth", I think in this de-bait consider this - that it was a continuous process in being delivered. Again, it's kind of silly to me to be trying to determine whether he knew all, said he knew all, or only knew some and when he knew some - sorry, it just seems a pointless topic. What's most important I think is that VPW felt if anyone would or could know anything of "the truth", it was him, because he contended that he was completing his part of the bargain so to speak, so it was "logical" to suggest that God would do likewise. From a gas pump standpoint. People came, people went, usually p.o.'d but they made whatever contribution he felt they did to the cause.
PFAL the Film was a checkpoint of sorts, in that it milestoned the "teaching" up to that point and put into place what he always called and referred to as the basics of the "accuracy" of the "Word". He never changed or adjusted any of the session topics or points of PFAL over the years. In 1977, after that effort to film his live presentation at Ball State University he said he just didn't feel it could be redone satisfactorily. Clearly, this presented some problems he chose to ignore, but that's the way that went.
My p'ernt is this - PFAL was the sum and substance of "all the truth" that he suggested anyone needed to know. That it wasn't "all the truth" on all topics, subjects and questions is obvious I think, but I'm sure that he felt it was the basic material to work from that would consistently and reliably direct any future efforts to continue down the road to "all the truth". He also said in many informal settings, and some formal ones like the SNS's that he didn't feel he or anyone would ever capture it "all" but, keep workin' kids, etc. etc.etc.
On the Princeton thing - I think that's an argument others take him to task over, but I never heard him imply that PTS was "Princeton University". Others often make immediate note that "it's not THE Princeton, that's a lie", but I don't think a lie is told until someone tells it and I don't think he ever passed it off as such.
Now, hopefully that's adds sufficient illumination and information that a Love Offering of substantial amount will be seen as the only appropriate response. Please address all Pay Pals and/or checks to "socksneedsmymoneymorethanmetocontinuehisimportantwork@aint_I_blessed.com. You'll also be added to our regular mailing list to receive the highly read "Updates and News You Never Knew Till Now", which will include an end of the year independent audit of all moneys, gifts, offerings, merchandise and stuff received for the previous year. You'll be thrilled to see how much love has been shared, I know I have been, but please don't let someone else do your loving for you, there's always room for more. Trust me.
And? The number of people is not in question? Nor is who? Those are straw man arguments that have zero to do with the claim made which is the issue being addressed as true or false. how many guest speakers addressed Fellow Laborers was never any part of the claim. Neither was the price of eggs in China.....No one ever spoke in my area as a guest either not the point. The claim is specific after the 1942 quote VP clearly said
that he was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
If he learned one thing, from one speaker then he did not know all the truth..... I don't believe that VP ever indicated that he did. As such the claim is false.
That is a blatant attempt to distract attention from this:
The record is clear that for some 30 years, after the point where John maintains that VP claimed he knew all the truth his actions did not coincide with John's claim VP clearly was learning more truth by inviting speakers to teach at whatever location.
You made this statement:
No one ever spoke in my area as a guest either not the point.
It really is an important part of the point.
Fellow Laborers was not just some dot on the map.
It was supposedly a strategic component of the leadership development process, not just a remote group of "Joe Believers".
Not only did we never have any guest speakers come in to expand our understanding of the "Truth" (your word), VPW himself never once spoke or even paid a visit to our program, despite your assertion that he would invite speakers to teach at "whatever location".
Why do you suppose that is?
Maybe it was because he had already closed the sale with us.
He had a guarantee that we were already financially committed to supporting his efforts.
That is a blatant attempt to distract attention from this:
The record is clear that for some 30 years, after the point where John maintains that VP claimed he knew all the truth his actions did not coincide with John's claim VP clearly was learning more truth by inviting speakers to teach at whatever location..
This debate about whether VPW inviting a few speakers to Ohio in the 1950s shows he didn't think he had the whole truth from 1942 is based on at least one big and false assumption.
Just because VPW said in the 1960s that God spoke to him audibly in 1942 and told VPW God would "teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century" doesn't mean it happened then or ever.
VPW was playing V. P. Barnum to big-eyed Elena Whiteside as he drove around Ohio showing off. If you have the book, read that section- it's obvious he's nothing but a used car salesman (in the worst sense of the word). He said many things in that conversation designed to inflate himself and impress her (and her readers) which were patently false.
For example, he said he took ALL the courses Moody Bible Institute had to offer (Moody records NONE). VP said he hauled ALL his books to the dump in about 1950 so he could study the Bible by itself without others' commentary, but we know for a fact he plagiarized several books after that date (Up to at least two years before he died). Notice all the "ALL"s, a dead giveaway they are yarns. More examples are in my book "From Vesper Chimes to TWI." Dressing up a pig in a tuxedo. VP lied through his teeth to promote himself and get converts and money from them.
So what of audible voices in 1942? It's another in a string of lies to Elena (and us her readers) that week. Can anyone show where he told this story in this way anywhere near 1942? (Some of his stories he told in different ways, seemingly inflating them as time went on. For example, the version in the 1967 25th anniversary booklet didn't sound near as fantasmic as the yarn to Elena and there's a distinct loss of humility between the 1954 and 1957 editions of RTHST.) No use talking about speakers in 1950s when 1942 was a fairy tale told decades after VP said it happened. "The record" says he told the big yarn in 1972, not 1942.
What's "debatable" about his affiliation with the E&R Church from 1952-1957..???
Guess I need to dig out Mrs. Wierwille's book again from the attic..........but I distinctly remember her stating that when vpw, don and mrs. arrived home from B.G. Leonard's class in 1953, veepee went to work in signing up friends and neighbors and this first "pfal class" was run at the E&R Church.
Plus, the correspondence during the "India trip" was TO the E&R congregants.
What's "debatable" about that...WD?
<_<
As I noted until 1957 Aug 7th VP was a paster for the E & R church
However the India trip was sonsored by the All India Federation of Churches not the E & R Church. If you look in your book pg 173 you will see that in a Way newsletter dated March 1956 he spoke of the trip.
also pg 215 his resignation letter reads
Because I believe God would have me devote more and more time to this non-sectarian,inter denominational work of The Way Inc. International to writing and teaching , and thus I would have to be gone from the local congregation for weeks and even months at a time, therefore....I tender my resignation
It is pretty clear that he was a paster on one hand for the E & R church but was was also doing his own thing on the side. They were having board meetings, and publishing way newsletters. I'd say that is part of his debatable affiliation. It sounds like his time was split between the two, and clearly by his letter they were aware of the other side work. He also booked his first speaker of the spiritual 40 club not at his church but a methodist one that he borrowed for the occasion.
That is a blatant attempt to distract attention from this:
The record is clear that for some 30 years, after the point where John maintains that VP claimed he knew all the truth his actions did not coincide with John's claim VP clearly was learning more truth by inviting speakers to teach at whatever location.
You made this statement:
No one ever spoke in my area as a guest either not the point.
It really is an important part of the point.
Fellow Laborers was not just some dot on the map.
It was supposedly a strategic component of the leadership development process, not just a remote group of "Joe Believers".
Not only did we never have any guest speakers come in to expand our understanding of the "Truth" (your word), VPW himself never once spoke or even paid a visit to our program, despite your assertion that he would invite speakers to teach at "whatever location".
Why do you suppose that is?
Maybe it was because he had already closed the sale with us.
He had a guarantee that we were already financially committed to supporting his efforts.
Or maybe it is because speakers were invited to The Way Hdqts because of the audience size ,recording capacity, meeting space and other things that you small program did not offer. The fellow laborers in Kansas was not all that huge either.
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waysider
It would be interesting to see just how many non-TWI "guest speakers" actually spoke to TWI audiences over the years.
(Excluding political pitchmen, gun safety instructors, etc.)
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Oakspear
The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor, not when he was fronting TWI.
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waysider
So, then, it was in the pre-gas pump era, before he cornered the market on "truth".
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skyrider
Good point, Oakspear.....hadn't really thought of it like that.
So....once veepee stole B.G. Leonard's class in '53 and started digging into Bullinger's work (when dr. higgins sat in 'The Gifts of the Spirit' class and noted bullinger research books)....wierwille was OFF TO THE RACES FRONTING HIS 'NEWFOUND' INSIDE TRACK TO GOD.
Heck, wierwille was noted as having 'twi-board meetings' while he was still an E&R church pastor....like he couldn't wait to strike out on his own.
<_<
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
I don't think that Wierwille never acknowledged that he could learn from others. I think it's clear that he did seek out others' teachings in his early days. However, there came a point when that stopped. Was it when he left the church? When he filmed PFAL? When the money started rolling in? I don't know, but most of us were told that we were involved in a TWI where "the Word was taught like it hadn't been since the First Century".
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Oakspear
I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth.
I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination.
Intentional or not this is a strawman argument and a logical fallacy.
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oldiesman
But still that does not translate into VP telling us "I am the ONLY source for truth" as Dr. Juedes seems to be repeating. He did not. It is not logical considering all of the facts that prove otherwise. BEST yes, ONLY no.
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Oakspear
"I too recall being told that some truth could be had outside of TWI. Every once in a while we would be made aware of a group that taught "correctly" on tithing for example, but (sigh) they were "inaccurate" on the Trinity, or some other thing. This was usually illustrative of TWI's claim that they had the whole package of truth.
I think it would be correct to say that Wierwille and the TWI heirarchy claimed that TWI was the ONLY and SOLE place to get the whole truth. I would venture to say that those who are saying that TWI claimed to be the only and sole palce to get truth actually mean that. How could they not? Not even John Juedes is claiming that TWI's position was that NO truth of any kind could be found in other denomination. "
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oldiesman
I disagree that it is correct to claim that VPW claimed he had the whole truth. Thats ridiculous. How could anyone in their right mind claim that they have the WHOLE truth?
I believe that VPW claimed and promoted that he believed he had the MOST truth out of any religious group out there and I believe the use of words like ONLY truth and WHOLE truth to describe what I believe was portrayed as THE MOST truth are erroneous fallicies.
MOST yes. ONLY and WHOLE no.
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doojable
I tend to disagree with you OM- because no matter what was said officially, there were many more things whispered and taught even by der victoid himself that seemed to say that vp was right- until he decided he wasn't right - and he never said he wasn't right.
I recall in Adv CL '79 vp saying talking about Bullinger and saying something to the effect of,
"I know he was a Trinitarian - but I just know he wasn't one by the end of his life. He couldn't have been! With what he knew... I just know..."
Vp wasn't claiming revelation, but he was claiming that surely someone like Bulinger, that he had put forth as an authority (and had plagiarized freely,) must have come to the same conclusion he did regarding the Trinity.
And think about it...
Isn't "Best" - "Better than the rest"?
Which would be code for "Only."
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Ham
and "for the sake of accuracy" let's not forget he didn't REALLY have a doctorate. A sham piece of paper that might find a better use in an outhouse than hanging in more esthetic surroundings.
but a "Dotorate", no.
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waysider
Whether he ever used the actual words ONLY or BEST is really a moot point.
He promoted TWI and what he, VP, personally had to offer as a product that was unparalleled.
But, for the sake of bringing the topic back into the discussion, tithing is, in fact, not a requirement of The Church, now or in the NT. Making a statement like "Don't pray for prosperity if you don't tithe"---VPW, demonstrates either an ignorance of the history and meaning of the tithe or a blatant disregard for accuracy.
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Ham
I think it also demonstrates the unparalled greed of the one who made that statement. How many garbage bags full of money does one need to wallow in before one is satisfied?
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Oakspear
the MOST truth = no one had any more of the truth than he did.
Here's how I'm using the terms "whole truth" and "whole package of truth":
I agree that it would be "ridiculous" to say that anyone could claim to have the WHOLE truth if "whole truth" was defined as, say, everything that God knew, or some other equally unattainable (by man) standard. Do you really think that that's what I'm saying? Wierwille promoted his teachings as having been taught to him by God as it hadn't been taught since the First Century, and that no one else was "accurate" on every one of his major points. Wierwille was very clear that getting your doctrine from other denominations would guarantee that you would be taught error in one or more categories.
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WhiteDove
Oak
The claim was
The event mentioned as you noted was in 1942. Who VP worked for is not in dispute, and not part of the claim the time frame is as the quote specifies. From 1942 on.
The "Spiritual 40 Club" operated during Wierwille's days as an E&R Church pastor starting in January of 1952 Starr Daily was the first speaker. It's debatable as to his affiliation with the church at this point as they were already publishing Way magazines around this time. And even Starr's presentation was not held at the E & R church but at a Methodist church that VP borrowed for the occasion. Technically you are correct as VP did not resign until 1957 from the E & R church.
I don't know by what name if any they referred to it when speakers came in to teach later on but the process continued into the 60s and 70s I have a tape (actually now a CD) of Bishop Pillai teaching The Renewed Mind at The Way International in 1969 as well as some others in the 70s . Regardless of the church affiliation or name of the program the claim made was that after the quote in 1942 VP was the only one who knew all the truth Who he did or did not work for is not the claim made and as such is a distraction or straw man argument.
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Had that been the true then he would have had no reason to have others come to teach, since he already "knew all the truth" He would have simply taught it himself, yet Mrs. Wierwille clearly records that VP believed these speakers had a vital message and we could learn from them .That does not sound like someone who thought that they had all the truth from 1942 on as it was now ten years later and he was still learning. John's statement is incorrect and it's not the first one. In and of itself it is not a big deal we all misspeak, the problem and I personally believe it shows motive, is that these errors are never corrected. Normally when one misspeaks they just correct the error , and yet it appears that John does not seem to care to do so. Personally I think that shows his bias toward the truth, say whatever and if it is not true then just make it up as you go along. The record is clear that for some 30 years, after the point where John maintains that VP claimed he knew all the truth his actions did not coincide with John's claim VP clearly was learning more truth by inviting speakers to teach at whatever location.
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waysider
Can you name, let's say, 10 or 15?
I mean, we're talking 30 years here!
Ought to be an easy list to compile, no?
I can tell you exactly how many guest speakers addressed Fellow Laborers (a two year, in residence program at a "whatever location") regarding Biblical matters during my time there. ------------Zero.
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WhiteDove
And? The number of people is not in question? Nor is who? Those are straw man arguments that have zero to do with the claim made which is the issue being addressed as true or false. how many guest speakers addressed Fellow Laborers was never any part of the claim. Neither was the price of eggs in China.....No one ever spoke in my area as a guest either not the point. The claim is specific after the 1942 quote VP clearly said
that he was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
If he learned one thing, from one speaker then he did not know all the truth..... I don't believe that VP ever indicated that he did. As such the claim is false.
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skyrider
What's "debatable" about his affiliation with the E&R Church from 1952-1957..???
Guess I need to dig out Mrs. Wierwille's book again from the attic..........but I distinctly remember her stating that when vpw, don and mrs. arrived home from B.G. Leonard's class in 1953, veepee went to work in signing up friends and neighbors and this first "pfal class" was run at the E&R Church.
Plus, the correspondence during the "India trip" was TO the E&R congregants.
What's "debatable" about that...WD?
<_<
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socks
Hmm...I feel kind of silly mentioning this, but as a kind of checkpoint - the "gas pump" story goes that God "told" VPW that "He" would teach him the "Word" as it hadn't been known for x000 number of years, if "he" VPW, would "teach" it.
To say he knew, or had or whatever "all the truth", I think in this de-bait consider this - that it was a continuous process in being delivered. Again, it's kind of silly to me to be trying to determine whether he knew all, said he knew all, or only knew some and when he knew some - sorry, it just seems a pointless topic. What's most important I think is that VPW felt if anyone would or could know anything of "the truth", it was him, because he contended that he was completing his part of the bargain so to speak, so it was "logical" to suggest that God would do likewise. From a gas pump standpoint. People came, people went, usually p.o.'d but they made whatever contribution he felt they did to the cause.
PFAL the Film was a checkpoint of sorts, in that it milestoned the "teaching" up to that point and put into place what he always called and referred to as the basics of the "accuracy" of the "Word". He never changed or adjusted any of the session topics or points of PFAL over the years. In 1977, after that effort to film his live presentation at Ball State University he said he just didn't feel it could be redone satisfactorily. Clearly, this presented some problems he chose to ignore, but that's the way that went.
My p'ernt is this - PFAL was the sum and substance of "all the truth" that he suggested anyone needed to know. That it wasn't "all the truth" on all topics, subjects and questions is obvious I think, but I'm sure that he felt it was the basic material to work from that would consistently and reliably direct any future efforts to continue down the road to "all the truth". He also said in many informal settings, and some formal ones like the SNS's that he didn't feel he or anyone would ever capture it "all" but, keep workin' kids, etc. etc.etc.
On the Princeton thing - I think that's an argument others take him to task over, but I never heard him imply that PTS was "Princeton University". Others often make immediate note that "it's not THE Princeton, that's a lie", but I don't think a lie is told until someone tells it and I don't think he ever passed it off as such.
Now, hopefully that's adds sufficient illumination and information that a Love Offering of substantial amount will be seen as the only appropriate response. Please address all Pay Pals and/or checks to "socksneedsmymoneymorethanmetocontinuehisimportantwork@aint_I_blessed.com.
You'll also be added to our regular mailing list to receive the highly read "Updates and News You Never Knew Till Now", which will include an end of the year independent audit of all moneys, gifts, offerings, merchandise and stuff received for the previous year. You'll be thrilled to see how much love has been shared, I know I have been, but please don't let someone else do your loving for you, there's always room for more. Trust me.
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waysider
That is a blatant attempt to distract attention from this:
The record is clear that for some 30 years, after the point where John maintains that VP claimed he knew all the truth his actions did not coincide with John's claim VP clearly was learning more truth by inviting speakers to teach at whatever location.
You made this statement:
No one ever spoke in my area as a guest either not the point.
It really is an important part of the point.
Fellow Laborers was not just some dot on the map.
It was supposedly a strategic component of the leadership development process, not just a remote group of "Joe Believers".
Not only did we never have any guest speakers come in to expand our understanding of the "Truth" (your word), VPW himself never once spoke or even paid a visit to our program, despite your assertion that he would invite speakers to teach at "whatever location".
Why do you suppose that is?
Maybe it was because he had already closed the sale with us.
He had a guarantee that we were already financially committed to supporting his efforts.
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johnj
This debate about whether VPW inviting a few speakers to Ohio in the 1950s shows he didn't think he had the whole truth from 1942 is based on at least one big and false assumption.
Just because VPW said in the 1960s that God spoke to him audibly in 1942 and told VPW God would "teach him the Word as it had not been known since the first century" doesn't mean it happened then or ever.
VPW was playing V. P. Barnum to big-eyed Elena Whiteside as he drove around Ohio showing off. If you have the book, read that section- it's obvious he's nothing but a used car salesman (in the worst sense of the word). He said many things in that conversation designed to inflate himself and impress her (and her readers) which were patently false.
For example, he said he took ALL the courses Moody Bible Institute had to offer (Moody records NONE). VP said he hauled ALL his books to the dump in about 1950 so he could study the Bible by itself without others' commentary, but we know for a fact he plagiarized several books after that date (Up to at least two years before he died). Notice all the "ALL"s, a dead giveaway they are yarns. More examples are in my book "From Vesper Chimes to TWI." Dressing up a pig in a tuxedo. VP lied through his teeth to promote himself and get converts and money from them.
So what of audible voices in 1942? It's another in a string of lies to Elena (and us her readers) that week. Can anyone show where he told this story in this way anywhere near 1942? (Some of his stories he told in different ways, seemingly inflating them as time went on. For example, the version in the 1967 25th anniversary booklet didn't sound near as fantasmic as the yarn to Elena and there's a distinct loss of humility between the 1954 and 1957 editions of RTHST.) No use talking about speakers in 1950s when 1942 was a fairy tale told decades after VP said it happened. "The record" says he told the big yarn in 1972, not 1942.
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WhiteDove
As I noted until 1957 Aug 7th VP was a paster for the E & R church
However the India trip was sonsored by the All India Federation of Churches not the E & R Church. If you look in your book pg 173 you will see that in a Way newsletter dated March 1956 he spoke of the trip.
also pg 215 his resignation letter reads
Because I believe God would have me devote more and more time to this non-sectarian,inter denominational work of The Way Inc. International to writing and teaching , and thus I would have to be gone from the local congregation for weeks and even months at a time, therefore....I tender my resignation
It is pretty clear that he was a paster on one hand for the E & R church but was was also doing his own thing on the side. They were having board meetings, and publishing way newsletters. I'd say that is part of his debatable affiliation. It sounds like his time was split between the two, and clearly by his letter they were aware of the other side work. He also booked his first speaker of the spiritual 40 club not at his church but a methodist one that he borrowed for the occasion.
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WhiteDove
Or maybe it is because speakers were invited to The Way Hdqts because of the audience size ,recording capacity, meeting space and other things that you small program did not offer. The fellow laborers in Kansas was not all that huge either.
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