" Without going into my "Way Memorabalia" file, the gist of the answer that was given to me was "tithing worked best in twi but worked elsewhere too";.... and I think that was the gist of CSBP. "
On the issue of whether tithing "works" when given outside TWI.... This is a real problem for TWI, VP and the "research" dept. They have two contradictory doctrines- one that the law of believing/ tithing works for saint and sinner alike, and two, that TWI is the sole representative on God on earth, the only place there is truth. They couldn't have both- one had to give in this battle of TWI titans.
I am sure it was only grudgingly that they would hesitantly say that perhaps the "Law" works outside of TWI
Did they ever state publically in a teaching on tithing that tithing/ ABS worked fine given places outside TWI? Was that idea ever promoted in The Way Mag or WAP? Never. Instead, "The Tithe Doth STill Provide" and the WAP appendix plainly state the opposite- TWI is the only place to give.
And it appears that everyone who was ever in TWI for any period of time got the message in one way or another that TWI was the only place to give, and those who gave elsewhere knew they were going against the MOG of this. The proof is in the pudding.
The wiser approach would be to admit that both doctrines are wrong and displease the Lord.
There are many places you can hear a "Health and wealth" gospel. Not just TWI. Did Jesus really call us ALL to prosperity? Isn't the abundant life really found in Him--who is life. Does that verse (John 10:10) really have to do with material abundance at all? Isn't our life an abundant one--when filled with Him who is the best possible thing to offer? We can be poor and still have an abundant life in Jesus.
How come the love of many in TWI with abundance was so cold and legalistic? So hard and often cruel in the name of God?
Doesn't it tell us to warn the rich--doesn't mention the poor? Was Paul not believing or tithing when he said--He was hungry-no where to live--ragged clothes--pleading for the poor SAINTS in Jerusalem?
Doesn't it say? Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
-Matthew 6:19-21
Yes, there are other teachers/ groups that teach the health and wealth "gospel" and believing = receiving, too. Like VPW, most of them trace their doctrine back to EW Kenyon (Kenyon was one of the guys VPW plagiarized from). On this issue, they do damage to the Kingdom of God just as TWI does, and shift people's focus from faith to money. But for every one rich guy like Benny Hinn, there are 100 poor guys who teach the same thing and give him money to make him wealthy at others' expense.
Thanks for mentioning Jesus' words, "where your treasure is, your heart will be also," meaning that we shouldn't desire or focus on material things which are part of this world that doesn't last. There are far more important things to focus on that do last and make a difference, like faith, hope and love, loving God with all our heart and loving our neighbor as ourself.
On the issue of whether tithing "works" when given outside TWI.... This is a real problem for TWI, VP and the "research" dept. They have two contradictory doctrines- one that the law of believing/ tithing works for saint and sinner alike, and two, that TWI is the sole representative on God on earth, the only place there is truth. They couldn't have both- one had to give in this battle of TWI titans.
I am sure it was only grudgingly that they would hesitantly say that perhaps the "Law" works outside of TWI
Did they ever state publically in a teaching on tithing that tithing/ ABS worked fine given places outside TWI? Was that idea ever promoted in The Way Mag or WAP? Never. Instead, "The Tithe Doth STill Provide" and the WAP appendix plainly state the opposite- TWI is the only place to give.
And it appears that everyone who was ever in TWI for any period of time got the message in one way or another that TWI was the only place to give, and those who gave elsewhere knew they were going against the MOG of this. The proof is in the pudding.
The wiser approach would be to admit that both doctrines are wrong and displease the Lord.
The statement of yours that I dispute is "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count"; not anything LCM said or wrote. Just because LCM wrote something does not mean VPW said or meant or believed that exact same thing and I believe that turnabout may border on intellectual dishonesty. I believe the wiser and more accurate approach would be to admit that the words of LCM are his words alone and not assume VPW said or taught the exact same thing that LCM said or taught.
"tithing worked best in twi but worked elsewhere too"
Wouldn't that seem to make God a "respecter of persons"?
Also, it contradicts this passage from CSBP, page 3:
"God has no favorites. Prosperity is dependent upon certain definite laws which everyone may learn and apply."
As well as this one from page 20:
"This is God's basic law of prosperity for all people. This law stands firm in the face of all realization to the contrary and operates in all fields of endeavor."
Side note Re: Net or Gross
page 11
"When we allow anyone or anything, such as government, to take from our incomes before we have set aside at least one-tenth for the Lord's work, we are simply defeating ourselves and indicating by our actions that someone or something is ahead of God in our material life."
On the issue of whether tithing "works" when given outside TWI.... This is a real problem for TWI, VP and the "research" dept. They have two contradictory doctrines- one that the law of believing/ tithing works for saint and sinner alike, and two, that TWI is the sole representative on God on earth, the only place there is truth.
I believe another inaccurate statement is that twi taught they were the ONLY and SOLE place for truth. My recollection is they were claiming the BEST source, not the ONLY source. I believe CSBP supports that idea. Also, VPW said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", so logically there is lots of truth elsewhere since he got lots of his stuff from outside TWI. Never heard or saw in writing the claim that TWI is the ONLY place there is truth, I think that is someone's fantasy and wishful thinking and my wish is that folks would be more accurate when describing twi and Wierwille's beliefs.
It was no different under Wierwille. Everything was required to be given to him as well.
Remember when he took over the way east and west and threw out the guys that were responsible for the growth and movement?
It was all about the abs not going directly to hq. That was when and why the way tree system was started. He couldn`t stand that the money wasn`t coming to him.
Wouldn't that seem to make God a "respecter of persons"?
Also, it contradicts this passage from CSBP, page 3:
"God has no favorites. Prosperity is dependent upon certain definite laws which everyone may learn and apply."
As well as this one from page 20:
"This is God's basic law of prosperity for all people. This law stands firm in the face of all realization to the contrary and operates in all fields of endeavor."
No, what that proves is that VPW taught that God is a respector of conditions... all those who respect the conditions will get the results, it is not limited to "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." So, those statements in CSBP go toward proving my point and disprove Dr. Juedes' point.
Never heard or saw in writing the claim that TWI is the ONLY place there is truth, I think that is someone's fantasy and wishful thinking and my wish is that folks would be more accurate when describing twi and Wierwille's beliefs.
I did, I heard it many times. I`ll bet I am not the only one. It is neither fantasy nor wishful thinking. What I REALLY wish, is that twi had been as harmless or blameless as you would like everyone to believe.
Wierwille did indeed portray himself as the only one who could teach us the word like it hadn`t been known since the 21st century. Anything or anyone else were simply non believing believers.
No, what that proves is that VPW taught that God is a respector of conditions... all those who respect the conditions will get the results, it is not limited to "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." So, those statements in CSBP go toward proving my point and disprove Dr. Juedes' point.
So, then, what conditions existed in TWI that made it the BEST place to give a tithe?
So, are you saying that churches shouldn't help little old ladies who have been faithful for years with their heating oil bills or give Thanksgiving baskets to the poor?
TWI is setting on something well over $50 million... that's nothing compared to some other churches. And you don't think they could maybe help out others from time to time?
After all, I thought they were a nonprofit organization...
No that's not what I said, Nothing wrong with helping people, butfor someone to expect that all their obligations should be somehow covered by a church is silly. To look at a church asset and assume that you should be ,and everyone else should be provided with the same things is beyond logic.
LCM poked mean fun at charities and other churches. He called charities "designer causes" and said that it was "good" to give to them, and if you want to settle for "just good", go ahead, but that giving to twi was "best" and of course, we all wanted to do what was "best".
I had faithfully given to a charity that I believed in until twi convinced me it was better to give all I had to give to them and none to the United Way. Maybe I was weak for being able to be talked out of what I believed in, but they were bullies for talking me out of it just because supposedly "reverend" martindale said blah, blah, blah...
Did they ever state publically in a teaching on tithing that tithing/ ABS worked fine given places outside TWI?
The Way did, many times, johnj. This may have been already noted but yes, it was stated, "taught" that way. I can't speak for what was presented after I left, in '89 so it may have changed drastically after that.
The idea of it "working" - that tithing and sharing "abundantly" over the 10% tithe was key to a person's well being and success - was taught as a result of doing it.
There's actually two basic concepts that the earlier CSBP presented - tithing and "giving".
Tithing as an Old Testament practice to honor God from a person's "first fruits" by offering 10 % of it to honor God, and giving as taught by Jesus Christ, "as you give so shall you receive".
Tithing then being a formal practice or ritual performed as a basic recognition of God's blessings and providence. Giving as a practice of sharing with others in any form.
The Way's interpretation of tithing was very rudimentary but at one time at least it was a matter of personal choice, meaning that no one "had" to or was denied access to the normal activities of the Way like fellowships and informal activities. Classes of cours cost money, the teaching ministry had a price tag to it.
VPW always made fun of other organizations and only begrudgingly respected those who prospered like the Mormons, crediting it to the regular practice of tithing and sharing to their church. It wasn's rocket science or advanced spirituality (although that was promoted), it was really just recognizing the results of a group of people who all grouped together in common support of their church.
(I remember at one time a year where the fellowship I held turned out to be "#2" in "abundant sharing" collected, out of an Area where there were about 20 fellowships active. The #1 fellowship that tab'd in for that same year was composed of people who owned businesses and had fairly successful professional careers. This was reported to me at the start of the following year, as a kind of "way to go!" piece of information.
At the same time it was very telling - our fellowship was small, 8 regular attendees throughout the year and there wasn't large, regular amounts of money collected, by any means. What this told me, and I talked to the Area Coordinator about it - was that it was clear that everyone didn't give regularly to the Way. Not that that was a bad thing - it was simply a fact by all appearances. The only thing our fellowship did was give consistently, but we in fact didn't "tithe" out of strict obligation. There was a period where myself and another couple didn't for a month or two because at the time both of our families were doing well to pay the bills. So we were very flexible with it, while still trying to do what we thought to be "the right thing".
Fast forward about 3 years and the Limb Coordinator reported that that state had hit the "million dollar" mark for the previous year. I don't, didn't have access to the records but I knew the growth for those previous few years throughout the state had been consistent and steady. My guesstimate at the time was that the increase in numbers, coupled with some level of consistency on the part of a certain percentage of the active members accounted for the increases reported. But I seriously doubt it was due in that state to everyone tithing and giving to the Way because I knew people in our own Area who simply didn't at all.
I only mention all of this because I "think" that later, after so many people left the Way in the late 80's, the Trustees, LCM specifically, must have seen the income to the Way go way way down, and very quickly. It appears he realized that the large numbers would no longer produce a segment of regular, consistent tithers to the Way and those who remained weren't enough to make do. So he hammered down on the rule of practice for tithing and made it compulsory for "standing believers" in the "household". Basically in his mind, no "freeloaders". Add to that the debacle of putting all Way Corps on salary, and it's no wonder Howard Allen was reported as saying they nearly ran out of money at one point. (the reported cause he stepped down from Trustee level position and "retired")
I believe another inaccurate statement is that twi taught they were the ONLY and SOLE place for truth. My recollection is they were claiming the BEST source, not the ONLY source.
TWI celebrates as its anniversary the day VPW says
"That's when He (Father) spoke to me audibly... He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century" (The Way Living in Love p. 178)
Wierwille clearly is saying that no one since the 12 apostles knew the Word as VP did, and no one else was taught directly from God as VP was, nor heard God's audible voice as VP heard it..
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
When VP had a big meeting. A "Love offering" was taken. Did he ever come to your area and speak?? Well, do you know where that money from the offering went?
It didn't go to feed the local WOWs. It went into big brown paper grocery bags and right on the motor coach.
It left the area WITH VP--collecting as he went along. BIG BROWN GROCERY BAGS FULL OF MONEY!! Directly to the MOG. Yes Oakspear it went to the big guy himself. Bet he rolled around in it laughing his head off.
This is grossly improper, and illegal from the standpoint of the IRS. No one except VP knew how much money was in the bag, nor how it was spent, nor was it likely accounted for in TWI financial records, nor was it likely reported to the IRS as personal income when VP used it for himself. This is an open door for VP to use the money for himself instead of the ministry.
Let me contrast how our church handles funds: First, 99% of our offering are by check, not cash and are recorded by name of giver. This way givers can confirm that their offerings were in fact deposited by the church, not used by an individual.
Second, at least two people count every offering, and those who count and deposit the offerings sign the deposit form so we know who counted it. Those who take in funds are different people than those who spend the funds. This eliminates the possiblity that someone will collect and use funds without anyone else being aware of what came in and how it was used.
Third, those who spend funds don't have a pile of cash and use it as they wish without accountability. Expenditures have to be generally pre-aproved by appearing in the budget for the year. Before a check is written for an expenditure, or before a purchse is reimbursed, receipts have to be produced that show how the money was spent and how it was used for the church, not for an individual.
Fourth, all checks have 2 signatures so no one can spend money without the approval and knowledge of a second person who is not related..
Weirwille broke all these rules and would have been prohibited from handling money in our church. It is also likely he would have been confronted for using money for personal purposes and for not reporting income/benefits to the IRS as income. He may even have been prosecuted for defrauding the church.
I suspect that VPW saw nothing wrong with using offerings for personal purposes, because he figured that he "was" the way ministry, niot that he worked for it. A probable megalomaniac.
This is grossly improper, and illegal from the standpoint of the IRS. No one except VP knew how much money was in the bag, nor how it was spent, nor was it likely accounted for in TWI financial records, nor was it likely reported to the IRS as personal income when VP used it for himself. This is an open door for VP to use the money for himself instead of the ministry.
Hi Pastor,
Let me be clear here. I don't know what was done with the money once it was on the motor coach. I do know that we carried it out there and it was alot of money. We put it in the bags we were given and out it went. I only saw this twice. It left with VP. I assume it was SOP. It may have benn different other times, but I doubt it.
Grossly improper? Remember who we are speaking of here. Many grossly improper things went on in that motor coach. I think we call them felonies.
A man who so cruelly handles young women is not likely to have suddenly grown a conscience where the IRS is concerned. "In their greed they will exploit you".
In our church an outside firm handles the money--recording names--keeping records--making deposits. Our Pastor is so careful with it as well.
Trust me, we asked.
Oh and I know of at least one limb who held some serious money in gold and silver dollars. At one time it was under the limb leaders bed. I am not kidding. Oh and the gold. . . it was in a currency that I am pretty sure was illegal to have in the US.
When VP had a big meeting. A "Love offering" was taken. Did he ever come to your area and speak??
Well, do you know where that money from the offering went?
It didn't go to feed the local WOWs. It went into big brown paper grocery bags and right on the motor coach.
It left the area WITH VP--collecting as he went along. BIG BROWN GROCERY BAGS FULL OF MONEY!! Directly to the MOG.
A little tempting to carry onto the MOTOR COACH--when you drive an unsafe uninsured bucket of bolts--are broke--behind on the power bill--and sick of tuna and mac and cheese.
Yes Oakspear it went to the big guy himself. Bet he rolled around in it laughing his head off.
WHERE DO PEOPLE THINK IT WENT??? Sheeeesh--
Speaking of big meetings..........how about the Rock of Ages?
For several years, I helped usher at the Big Top.....the Main Tent. When the abundant sharing was received, we were instructed to walk briskly over to the OSC where twi's security was guarding this "procession of money" every step of the way. As we reached the OSC, the maintenance area where the fire truck was usually parked, we formed in five or six lines. While holding our horns of plenty.....we patiently waited to dump its contents, THE MONEY, into a large barrel (simply a trash barrel). Each line had its own barrel.
With thousands upon thousands in attendance at the roa......IT REALLY WAS AMAZING TO SEE ALL THAT CASH IN SIX BARRELS. Then, after leaving our empty horn of plenty on a table.....we were instructed to immediately return to our seat. So.......whatever happened with all this cash after that, I do not know. But given all that Waydale and GS has reported throughout these years......I would venture to say that the seedy-side of twi only reported a portion of this this cash in its reports. Contrasted with churches where checks are given......in those "barrels of cash" I didn't see one check. Not one!
Do the math........just say twelve thousand adults at the Rock and each throws in a couple of $20 bills. It does add up rather quickly........doesn't it?
TWI celebrates as its anniversary the day VPW says
"That's when He (Father) spoke to me audibly... He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century" (The Way Living in Love p. 178)
Wierwille clearly is saying that no one since the 12 apostles knew the Word as VP did, and no one else was taught directly from God as VP was, nor heard God's audible voice as VP heard it..
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Speaking of big meetings..........how about the Rock of Ages?
For several years, I helped usher at the Big Top.....the Main Tent. When the abundant sharing was received, we were instructed to walk briskly over to the OSC where twi's security was guarding this "procession of money" every step of the way. As we reached the OSC, the maintenance area where the fire truck was usually parked, we formed in five or six lines. While holding our horns of plenty.....we patiently waited to dump its contents, THE MONEY, into a large barrel (simply a trash barrel). Each line had its own barrel.
With thousands upon thousands in attendance at the roa......IT REALLY WAS AMAZING TO SEE ALL THAT CASH IN SIX BARRELS. Then, after leaving our empty horn of plenty on a table.....we were instructed to immediately return to our seat. So.......whatever happened with all this cash after that, I do not know. But given all that Waydale and GS has reported throughout these years......I would venture to say that the seedy-side of twi only reported a portion of this this cash in its reports. Contrasted with churches where checks are given......in those "barrels of cash" I didn't see one check. Not one!
Do the math........just say twelve thousand adults at the Rock and each throws in a couple of $20 bills. It does add up rather quickly........doesn't it?
It was all probably carted off by goons packing heat..
TWI celebrates as its anniversary the day VPW says
"That's when He (Father) spoke to me audibly... He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century" (The Way Living in Love p. 178)
Wierwille clearly is saying that no one since the 12 apostles knew the Word as VP did, and no one else was taught directly from God as VP was, nor heard God's audible voice as VP heard it..
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
Taken alone, that statement of VP may cause some to assume that ONLY Wierwille has taught the truth (even though VP didn't say he was the ONLY one to hear from God); but there is other evidence such as his statement "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", evidence of Bullinger & Kenyon books sold in the bookstore for all to read, evidence of his verbal and written statements about learning from men of God scattered across the continent, i.e, evidence of where stuff originated which makes the allegation that TWI was the ONLY source for truth weak and mistaken. I believe repeating this error displeases the Lord.
The Way International is listed in he Dun and Bradstreet records has been for years , when I worked in the banking industry I used to check the books now and then. I'm sure it is all on disk or online now. If anyone has access to the info the finances can be checked easily.
Here is their listing online and some ideas on things that they track and are accountable for. Someone in a bank could probably access this stuff for free. It used to be in the books and once you bought the yearly book that was it . Of course the books were expensive.
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johnj
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johnj
Yes, there are other teachers/ groups that teach the health and wealth "gospel" and believing = receiving, too. Like VPW, most of them trace their doctrine back to EW Kenyon (Kenyon was one of the guys VPW plagiarized from). On this issue, they do damage to the Kingdom of God just as TWI does, and shift people's focus from faith to money. But for every one rich guy like Benny Hinn, there are 100 poor guys who teach the same thing and give him money to make him wealthy at others' expense.
Thanks for mentioning Jesus' words, "where your treasure is, your heart will be also," meaning that we shouldn't desire or focus on material things which are part of this world that doesn't last. There are far more important things to focus on that do last and make a difference, like faith, hope and love, loving God with all our heart and loving our neighbor as ourself.
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oldiesman
The statement of yours that I dispute is "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count"; not anything LCM said or wrote. Just because LCM wrote something does not mean VPW said or meant or believed that exact same thing and I believe that turnabout may border on intellectual dishonesty. I believe the wiser and more accurate approach would be to admit that the words of LCM are his words alone and not assume VPW said or taught the exact same thing that LCM said or taught.
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waysider
Wouldn't that seem to make God a "respecter of persons"?
Also, it contradicts this passage from CSBP, page 3:
"God has no favorites. Prosperity is dependent upon certain definite laws which everyone may learn and apply."
As well as this one from page 20:
"This is God's basic law of prosperity for all people. This law stands firm in the face of all realization to the contrary and operates in all fields of endeavor."
Side note Re: Net or Gross
page 11
"When we allow anyone or anything, such as government, to take from our incomes before we have set aside at least one-tenth for the Lord's work, we are simply defeating ourselves and indicating by our actions that someone or something is ahead of God in our material life."
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oldiesman
I believe another inaccurate statement is that twi taught they were the ONLY and SOLE place for truth. My recollection is they were claiming the BEST source, not the ONLY source. I believe CSBP supports that idea. Also, VPW said "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", so logically there is lots of truth elsewhere since he got lots of his stuff from outside TWI. Never heard or saw in writing the claim that TWI is the ONLY place there is truth, I think that is someone's fantasy and wishful thinking and my wish is that folks would be more accurate when describing twi and Wierwille's beliefs.
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rascal
It was no different under Wierwille. Everything was required to be given to him as well.
Remember when he took over the way east and west and threw out the guys that were responsible for the growth and movement?
It was all about the abs not going directly to hq. That was when and why the way tree system was started. He couldn`t stand that the money wasn`t coming to him.
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oldiesman
No, what that proves is that VPW taught that God is a respector of conditions... all those who respect the conditions will get the results, it is not limited to "VPW conveniently determined that the giving had to be to him in order to count." So, those statements in CSBP go toward proving my point and disprove Dr. Juedes' point.
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rascal
I did, I heard it many times. I`ll bet I am not the only one. It is neither fantasy nor wishful thinking. What I REALLY wish, is that twi had been as harmless or blameless as you would like everyone to believe.
Wierwille did indeed portray himself as the only one who could teach us the word like it hadn`t been known since the 21st century. Anything or anyone else were simply non believing believers.
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waysider
So, then, what conditions existed in TWI that made it the BEST place to give a tithe?
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oldiesman
Don't know as the answer is subjective according to each person's beliefs and feelings; but that's beside the point I was making.
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waysider
What is the point you were making?
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WhiteDove
No that's not what I said, Nothing wrong with helping people, butfor someone to expect that all their obligations should be somehow covered by a church is silly. To look at a church asset and assume that you should be ,and everyone else should be provided with the same things is beyond logic.
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waysider
I don't recall anyone ever voicing that expectation.
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bowtwi
LCM poked mean fun at charities and other churches. He called charities "designer causes" and said that it was "good" to give to them, and if you want to settle for "just good", go ahead, but that giving to twi was "best" and of course, we all wanted to do what was "best".
I had faithfully given to a charity that I believed in until twi convinced me it was better to give all I had to give to them and none to the United Way. Maybe I was weak for being able to be talked out of what I believed in, but they were bullies for talking me out of it just because supposedly "reverend" martindale said blah, blah, blah...
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socks
The Way did, many times, johnj. This may have been already noted but yes, it was stated, "taught" that way. I can't speak for what was presented after I left, in '89 so it may have changed drastically after that.
The idea of it "working" - that tithing and sharing "abundantly" over the 10% tithe was key to a person's well being and success - was taught as a result of doing it.
There's actually two basic concepts that the earlier CSBP presented - tithing and "giving".
Tithing as an Old Testament practice to honor God from a person's "first fruits" by offering 10 % of it to honor God, and giving as taught by Jesus Christ, "as you give so shall you receive".
Tithing then being a formal practice or ritual performed as a basic recognition of God's blessings and providence. Giving as a practice of sharing with others in any form.
The Way's interpretation of tithing was very rudimentary but at one time at least it was a matter of personal choice, meaning that no one "had" to or was denied access to the normal activities of the Way like fellowships and informal activities. Classes of cours cost money, the teaching ministry had a price tag to it.
VPW always made fun of other organizations and only begrudgingly respected those who prospered like the Mormons, crediting it to the regular practice of tithing and sharing to their church. It wasn's rocket science or advanced spirituality (although that was promoted), it was really just recognizing the results of a group of people who all grouped together in common support of their church.
(I remember at one time a year where the fellowship I held turned out to be "#2" in "abundant sharing" collected, out of an Area where there were about 20 fellowships active. The #1 fellowship that tab'd in for that same year was composed of people who owned businesses and had fairly successful professional careers. This was reported to me at the start of the following year, as a kind of "way to go!" piece of information.
At the same time it was very telling - our fellowship was small, 8 regular attendees throughout the year and there wasn't large, regular amounts of money collected, by any means. What this told me, and I talked to the Area Coordinator about it - was that it was clear that everyone didn't give regularly to the Way. Not that that was a bad thing - it was simply a fact by all appearances. The only thing our fellowship did was give consistently, but we in fact didn't "tithe" out of strict obligation. There was a period where myself and another couple didn't for a month or two because at the time both of our families were doing well to pay the bills. So we were very flexible with it, while still trying to do what we thought to be "the right thing".
Fast forward about 3 years and the Limb Coordinator reported that that state had hit the "million dollar" mark for the previous year. I don't, didn't have access to the records but I knew the growth for those previous few years throughout the state had been consistent and steady. My guesstimate at the time was that the increase in numbers, coupled with some level of consistency on the part of a certain percentage of the active members accounted for the increases reported. But I seriously doubt it was due in that state to everyone tithing and giving to the Way because I knew people in our own Area who simply didn't at all.
I only mention all of this because I "think" that later, after so many people left the Way in the late 80's, the Trustees, LCM specifically, must have seen the income to the Way go way way down, and very quickly. It appears he realized that the large numbers would no longer produce a segment of regular, consistent tithers to the Way and those who remained weren't enough to make do. So he hammered down on the rule of practice for tithing and made it compulsory for "standing believers" in the "household". Basically in his mind, no "freeloaders". Add to that the debacle of putting all Way Corps on salary, and it's no wonder Howard Allen was reported as saying they nearly ran out of money at one point. (the reported cause he stepped down from Trustee level position and "retired")
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johnj
TWI celebrates as its anniversary the day VPW says
"That's when He (Father) spoke to me audibly... He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century" (The Way Living in Love p. 178)
Wierwille clearly is saying that no one since the 12 apostles knew the Word as VP did, and no one else was taught directly from God as VP was, nor heard God's audible voice as VP heard it..
VP was the only one in 2,000 years who knew all the truth. The only one.
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johnj
This is grossly improper, and illegal from the standpoint of the IRS. No one except VP knew how much money was in the bag, nor how it was spent, nor was it likely accounted for in TWI financial records, nor was it likely reported to the IRS as personal income when VP used it for himself. This is an open door for VP to use the money for himself instead of the ministry.
Let me contrast how our church handles funds: First, 99% of our offering are by check, not cash and are recorded by name of giver. This way givers can confirm that their offerings were in fact deposited by the church, not used by an individual.
Second, at least two people count every offering, and those who count and deposit the offerings sign the deposit form so we know who counted it. Those who take in funds are different people than those who spend the funds. This eliminates the possiblity that someone will collect and use funds without anyone else being aware of what came in and how it was used.
Third, those who spend funds don't have a pile of cash and use it as they wish without accountability. Expenditures have to be generally pre-aproved by appearing in the budget for the year. Before a check is written for an expenditure, or before a purchse is reimbursed, receipts have to be produced that show how the money was spent and how it was used for the church, not for an individual.
Fourth, all checks have 2 signatures so no one can spend money without the approval and knowledge of a second person who is not related..
Weirwille broke all these rules and would have been prohibited from handling money in our church. It is also likely he would have been confronted for using money for personal purposes and for not reporting income/benefits to the IRS as income. He may even have been prosecuted for defrauding the church.
I suspect that VPW saw nothing wrong with using offerings for personal purposes, because he figured that he "was" the way ministry, niot that he worked for it. A probable megalomaniac.
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geisha779
This is grossly improper, and illegal from the standpoint of the IRS. No one except VP knew how much money was in the bag, nor how it was spent, nor was it likely accounted for in TWI financial records, nor was it likely reported to the IRS as personal income when VP used it for himself. This is an open door for VP to use the money for himself instead of the ministry.
Hi Pastor,
Let me be clear here. I don't know what was done with the money once it was on the motor coach. I do know that we carried it out there and it was alot of money. We put it in the bags we were given and out it went. I only saw this twice. It left with VP. I assume it was SOP. It may have benn different other times, but I doubt it.
Grossly improper? Remember who we are speaking of here. Many grossly improper things went on in that motor coach. I think we call them felonies.
A man who so cruelly handles young women is not likely to have suddenly grown a conscience where the IRS is concerned. "In their greed they will exploit you".
In our church an outside firm handles the money--recording names--keeping records--making deposits. Our Pastor is so careful with it as well.
Trust me, we asked.
Oh and I know of at least one limb who held some serious money in gold and silver dollars. At one time it was under the limb leaders bed. I am not kidding. Oh and the gold. . . it was in a currency that I am pretty sure was illegal to have in the US.
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skyrider
Speaking of big meetings..........how about the Rock of Ages?
For several years, I helped usher at the Big Top.....the Main Tent. When the abundant sharing was received, we were instructed to walk briskly over to the OSC where twi's security was guarding this "procession of money" every step of the way. As we reached the OSC, the maintenance area where the fire truck was usually parked, we formed in five or six lines. While holding our horns of plenty.....we patiently waited to dump its contents, THE MONEY, into a large barrel (simply a trash barrel). Each line had its own barrel.
With thousands upon thousands in attendance at the roa......IT REALLY WAS AMAZING TO SEE ALL THAT CASH IN SIX BARRELS. Then, after leaving our empty horn of plenty on a table.....we were instructed to immediately return to our seat. So.......whatever happened with all this cash after that, I do not know. But given all that Waydale and GS has reported throughout these years......I would venture to say that the seedy-side of twi only reported a portion of this this cash in its reports. Contrasted with churches where checks are given......in those "barrels of cash" I didn't see one check. Not one!
Do the math........just say twelve thousand adults at the Rock and each throws in a couple of $20 bills. It does add up rather quickly........doesn't it?
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Ham
I never really looked at it like that..
kinda gives one a sick feeling, no?
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Ham
It was all probably carted off by goons packing heat..
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oldiesman
Thank you socks for confirming what I said and explaining it thoroughly.
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oldiesman
Taken alone, that statement of VP may cause some to assume that ONLY Wierwille has taught the truth (even though VP didn't say he was the ONLY one to hear from God); but there is other evidence such as his statement "lots of the stuff I teach is not original", evidence of Bullinger & Kenyon books sold in the bookstore for all to read, evidence of his verbal and written statements about learning from men of God scattered across the continent, i.e, evidence of where stuff originated which makes the allegation that TWI was the ONLY source for truth weak and mistaken. I believe repeating this error displeases the Lord.
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WhiteDove
The Way International is listed in he Dun and Bradstreet records has been for years , when I worked in the banking industry I used to check the books now and then. I'm sure it is all on disk or online now. If anyone has access to the info the finances can be checked easily.
Here is their listing online and some ideas on things that they track and are accountable for. Someone in a bank could probably access this stuff for free. It used to be in the books and once you bought the yearly book that was it . Of course the books were expensive.
D & B
The Credit union is listed seperatly as well.
Way Credit Union
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