Ex-TWI: Do You "Space Out"?

[John M Knapp LMSW]

In my cult counseling practice, I'm often asked about "dissociation." Many people don't know what it is. Or if they experience it.

In our groups, we called it "spacing out," "blissing out," "being slain in the spirit," being a "space cadet," or many other names.

But what did we mean? And what's the big problem with it? A lot of people enjoy "blissing out."

Basically, dissociation is any gap in the major identity or cognitive functions: awareness, memory, conscious thought, certain language abilities, and of course identity itself.

We all dissociate sometimes. We daydream, get lost in thought, stare off into space, forget for a moment where we are, or lose track of our surroundings when deeply involved with a book.

But, in extreme cases, our main personality disappears during the gap -- and another alter may take over. This is full-blown Dissociative Identity Disorder, what used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder. This is rare.

The point is dissociation exists on a spectrum, from mild and pleasurable to severely disabling.

Dissociation is only a problem when it causes pain or difficulty functioning in daily life.

Some cultic studies scholars believe cultic organizations teach trance states, a form of dissociation, because they increase suggestibility -- with obvious benefits to groups that control and indoctrinate members. (Not all scholars agree with the link between trance and suggestibility. This article offers evidence against the suggestibility hypothesis.)

Purposefully teaching dissociation to increase suggestibility seems likely to me. Every cultic group I've worked with promoted dissociation through trance, meditation, Ericksonian or classic hypnosis, chanting, speaking in tongues, group criticism sessions, singing hymns for hours, observing lengthy religious rituals, protracted group workshops, lengthy baffling group instruction, interminable incomprehensible videos, yoga, or other methods.

This doesn't mean dissociative techniques can't be pleasurable -- or beneficial. But like so many good things in life, they may be perverted by leaders with dishonorable intentions. And like salt, a little adds flavor and is necessary for life. But a lot can kill you.

Dissociation is one of our primary defense mechanisms. Most readers have heard of the "fight or flight response": The body pumps out adrenaline when presented with danger. To this scholars add "freeze": Responding to a frightening stimulus with a "deer-in-the-headlights" response, in the hope the danger will go away by itself.

I'd add to the physical fight-flight-or-freeze triad two cognitive defenses: "appease" and "avoid." Most mammals exhibit an appease response: Think of a low-status dog presenting his belly to a threatening dominant pack leader. We humans may bow and scrape before a threatening boss, for instance.

"Avoiding" takes many forms: simply staying away from hostile places and people, to denial, to mentally checking out -- or dissociating -- when all other defense methods fail. Our minds protect us from overwhelming stress.

The classic example is the child who is raped. At the time, the child may lose consciousness or enter into a fantasy world. Later as an adult, the raped adult-child may dissociate -- or even develop alters -- to protect the mind against the extreme stress of the painful memory or self loathing. People with post-traumatic stress disorder tend to dissociate.

It's easy to understand how harsh criticism fits into this model. Being denounced in front of a group is excruciating. It makes sense the mind checks out.

But what about chanting or meditating?

It's possible trance is a response to the boredom of repeating a mantra or maintaining a blank mind. Or it may be trance is just an alternative way of invoking a natural response -- a kind of "back door," just as we can hike our adrenaline by visualizing a dangerous situation when none is present.

Eastern meditation cults, or any group practicing extensive chanting or meditation, seem to cause unusually high levels of dissociation for some people in my experience. (I find fewer problem reports from mindfulness meditation practitioners -- although I've worked with followers of Goenka who report dissociation.)

Mantra-based and similar meditations themselves are forms of learned, voluntary, and controlled dissociation.

For most people 20 or 30 minute meditations are not only not dangerous, they appear to be beneficial -- and enjoyable. Meditation is one of Nature's miracles, I believe.

But some people report meditation practice can lead to involuntary, uncontrolled "spacing out" in daily life. Some groups have members meditating for 4 or 8 hours a day. (Transcendental Meditation is one of these.) It appears the mind overlearns meditative states, and they may occur spontaneously and without conscious control in daily life. For some of my clients, this causes difficulty leading a normal family or professional life.

A side point: Trance and meditation appear to become addictive for some people. (You may be interested in this article on trance addiction.)

Whatever mechanism allows meditation to induce dissociation, for a significant minority of meditate excessively, it becomes involuntary and dysfunctional.

Many long-term meditating clients initially deny dissociating in daily life.

But after reviewing the symptoms, some tell me they've dissociated for years.

Are you dissociating? Is it a challenge in your life?

Below is a list of possible symptoms. Nobody experiences all of them. Even experiencing a few -- if they interfere with your life &mdash is a matter for concern.

I've also linked to an online test that may indicate if you are experiencing dissociation. Please feel free to report your own experiences of dissociating in the comments below -- maintaining your anonymity if you choose.

Depersonalization: Symptoms of Losing Identity (Gaps)

• You sometimes stare off into space, not thinking and unaware of passing time
  
• You sometimes feel like a "witness" to what is happening to your body
  
• When driving, you sometimes realize you don't remember all or part of the trip
  
• Listening to someone talk, you sometimes realize you did not hear what was just said
  
• You sometimes talk aloud to yourself when you are alone
  
• You sometimes find yourself somewhere, with no idea how you got there
  
• You have no memory of some important life events, for example wedding, graduation
  
• You sometimes feel your body does not belong to you
  
• You sometimes remember a past event so vividly you feel you are reliving it
  
• You sometimes aren't sure whether things you remember really did happen or a dream
  
• Sometimes you can't remember if you did something or just thought about doing it
  
• You sometimes find a familiar place strange and unfamiliar
  
• Watching TV or reading, you sometimes become so absorbed you're unaware of the room around you
  
• You sometimes get so involved in a fantasy or daydream it feels as if it is really happening (may be understood as a "vision")
  
• You act so differently from situation to situation you like two different people
  
• You find yourself dressed in clothes you don't remember putting on
  
• You sometimes find new things among your belongings you do not remember buying
  
• Sometimes people approach you whom you don't know. They may call you by another name or insist you've met them before
  
• You notice or are told you sometimes do not recognize friends or family members
  
• You sometimes are accused of lying when you do not think you are
  
• You sometimes look in a mirror and do not recognize yourself
  
• You sometimes find you are able to do things with amazing ease and spontaneity that usually are difficult for you (sports, work, social situations, etc.)
  
• You sometimes find evidence you've done something you don't remember doing
  
• You sometimes find writings, drawings, or notes you have done but don't remember doing
  
• You sometimes hear voices that tell you what to do or comment on what you're doing
  

Derealization: Symptoms of Losing Connection to Reality

• You sometimes feel like you are falling into a void
  
• You sometimes feel like you are "outside your body" -- alongside, above or behind
  
• You sometimes feel like you are floating
  
• You sometimes feel kuje you and your surroundings do not seem real
  
• You sometimes see stationary objects appear to move
  
• Sometimes people and objects appear far away or unclear
  
• You sometimes see surroundings through a diffused light, fog or mist (or "fiery" light)
  
• Sometimes your whole body enveloped in light
  
• You sometimes feel your body is expanded -- feels huge/larger than normal
  
• You sometimes feel your body has shrunk to minute proportions/smaller than normal
  
• You sometimes feel your body is being pressed to the ground
  
• You sometimes are unusually sensitive to light and sound
  
• You sometimes have tunnel vision
  
• You sometimes find you can ignore pain
  

You'll find a valid, reliable online questionnaire for dissociation here. If you found yourself saying "yes" to several of the symptoms of dissociation above, I recommend you check it out.

You may be able to do some self-help with techniques I mention here.

But if you continue to experience discomfort or difficulty functioning due to dissociation symptoms, I suggest you speak about it with a mental health professional -- if only to ease your mind.

John M. Knapp, LMSW

Therapist. Cult counselor. Coach

KnappFamilyCounseling.com

[Seth R.]

Huh, what? Were you saying something. O.K. just kidding.

You offered a lot here to read and think about thank you. I'm going to read it a couple more times.

As far as Eastern meditation goes, Zen, Tibetan, etc... a true and ethical guide will emphasize that the purpose is to train the mind to be mindful. To fully experience every thought, every emotion, every sensation and still stay seated focusing on the breath. Spacing out and escaping ones own thoughts and the pain of life in not genuine meditation, that's this fast food junk food rock star guru half-a$zed meditation nonsense.

I find myself spacing out less, since being treated for bipolar and talking to a therapist.

Seth

[John M Knapp LMSW]

As far as Eastern meditation goes, Zen, Tibetan, etc... a true and ethical guide will emphasize that the purpose is to train the mind to be mindful. To fully experience every thought, every emotion, every sensation and still stay seated focusing on the breath. Spacing out and escaping ones own thoughts and the pain of life in not genuine meditation, that's this fast food junk food rock star guru half-a$zed meditation nonsense.

Hi, Seth,

That is the stated goal of most, but not all, Buddhist meditation (specifically mindfulness, insight, and vipassana).

The stated goal of most mantra-based meditations -- generally, Hindu-based -- is to experience "pure awareness" or "cosmic consciousness." This is discussed in some Indian texts as a "gap" between thoughts or states of consciousness. Literally, this gap meets the descriptions of dissociation, or so many scholars believe.

Some clients report that TWI videotapes and classes caused them to dissociate.

Also, criticism can cause dissociation in other ways. Controlling group norms, judgment, gossip, and so forth can cause overwhelming stress -- again leading to dissociation. In fact, many cult members so internalize criticism/perfectionism that their own personal judgment is so unbearable, they avoid it through dissociation.

Thanks for writing! I agree with you that the Buddhist meditations don't seem to cause dissociation. (Although I have worked with clients who experienced strong dissociation attending Goenka's meditation courses.)

Glad to hear you have found things that work for you!

J.

Edited September 26, 2008 by John M Knapp LMSW

[excathedra]

Too long a post lol

I do know that having been sexually abused as a child, when i got with wierwille, the man of god, on his motorcoach (what I like to call the bus), i'm not sure what happened. It was either spacing out because of what I had been drinking with him prior to going to the back of the bus (where his bed was), or it was spacing out due to the past. That's all I can add at the moment.

oh ps. i never found speaking in tongues put me in a space cadet place

[ChasUFarley]

This is hitting home a little too well... :unsure:

How can you be certain it's related to the cult and not to something else in a person's life?

Just wondering...

[Ham]

Sometimes your whole body enveloped in light

It wasn't my body, it was my mind. And it felt like my individuality was being burned off.. but it wasn't exactly unpleasant. If I could find a drug to duplicate it, I'd make a fortune on it..

only happened once.. long after I'd abandoned speaking in tongues, renewing of the mind and such..

Accompanied with this:

there was the logical part of me that just looked on, and was trying to figure out which neurotransmitters were involved.

I still functioned quite well.. went to work, still went to classes.. the only difference anyone may have noticed was a smile on my face.

Is this what you are talking about?

Edited September 26, 2008 by Ham

[John M Knapp LMSW]

This is hitting home a little too well... :unsure:

How can you be certain it's related to the cult and not to something else in a person's life?

Just wondering...

Hi, ChasuFarley,

I can't be sure. Cause and effect have not been "proven." But I've dealt with over 2000 current and former cult members. When the same symptoms come up over and over, it's reasonable to hypothesize there's a connection.

Can you say more about how it hits home?

J.

It wasn't my body, it was my mind. And it felt like my individuality was being burned off.. but it wasn't exactly unpleasant. If I could find a drug to duplicate it, I'd make a fortune on it..

only happened once.. long after I'd abandoned speaking in tongues, renewing of the mind and such..

Accompanied with this:

there was the logical part of me that just looked on, and was trying to figure out which neurotransmitters were involved.

I still functioned quite well.. went to work, still went to classes.. the only difference anyone may have noticed was a smile on my face.

Is this what you are talking about?

Hi, Ham,

This certainly sounds like classic dissociation. But since it didn't cause problems for you, I wouldn't say that you have anything to be concerned about.

Nearly everybody dissociates to some degree at times. It's only a matter of concern if it causes problems functioning or discomfort.

Thanks for writing! It takes courage to share unusual experiences.

J.

[waysider]

John

From the descriptions, it all sounded very foreign to me.

Then I read the symptoms.

Yikes!!! I answered positive to 64% of the symptoms. (of the depersonalization)

A big one for me is having an inordinate response to abusive authority figures.

It's like somebody flips a switch and I'm off and running.

I watch myself "from the outside" and it's like watching someone else responding.

It's kinda like what the WWII Vets I've known describe as "shell shock".

I'm getting much better at recognizing it and stopping it.

As to the trance thing:

You must first understand that what TWI did with speaking in tongues (SIT) may be different from some other groups. TWI taught that you should SIT silently to yourself. (NEVER out loud unless it was part of a ritual called a "Believers' Meeting".) Furthermore, they coupled it with the pseudo-law of believing. You were supposed to SIT while drawing a mental picture of what you desired or wished to pray for. (Perfect Prayer) We were told to do it much, much, much. So, if you found yourself stuck in a grocery store line or freeway grid-lock, you were supposed to picture various people and things while you SIT. We did this every chance we got. There is a list of 12 benefits that this supposedly facilitates. I won't bore you with the list but one of the significant "benefits" is that is supposed to be a direct communication between you and God. No small change to someone who is seeking to understand spiritual matters.

That's my 2 cents for now

[dmiller]

In my cult counseling practice, I'm often asked about "dissociation." Many people don't know what it is. Or if they experience it.

In our groups, we called it "spacing out," "blissing out," "being slain in the spirit," being a "space cadet," or many other names.

But what did we mean? And what's the big problem with it? A lot of people enjoy "blissing out."

What happened to the *Speaking in Tongues* part of this quote?? It disappeared. Gone. Poof.

SIT doesn't lead to that at all (IMO), but it was part of the original post.

John --- twi taught dissociation, promoted it, sold it, and encouraged frequent participation in it.

It was bundled up (quite completely) in a class called PFAL. 12 sessions. 3 weeks long. 4 nights per week.

Be there, or be square. Renew your mind to *the word*. Brainwashing with screaming bubbles.

The more often you attended, the further ingrained you got.

And after that *class*, there were other classes to keep the mind numbed and *blissing out* for the Lord.

Once I left the org, I experienced NONE of the symptoms you mentioned.

While *in* ---- I experienced dissociation all the time. Not so these days, nor since I got *out*. :)

[Goey]

I disassociatie quite a bit lately. But prefer to call it an afternoon nap.

On a serious note .........

"Cause and effect have not been "proven." But I've dealt with over 2000 current and former cult members. When the same symptoms come up over and over, it's reasonable to hypothesize there's a connection."

How can you hypothesize such a connection unless the 2000 current and former cult members are compared to 2000 non cult members?

My guess is that if you compared the 2000 culties in counseling, with for example, 2000 movie actors in counseling, or even any 2000 persons that are in counseling of some kind ..... that the incident of debilitatiing dissassociation might be similar in all groups.

But ....... if you took all those from each group that experience dibilitatating disassociation and found a higher incident of cult participation in those folks than in the ones who did not experience debilitatiing disassociation , THEN ...... it might be reasonable to hypothesize a connection.

But maybe the connection could simply be that they are all just in counseling ......

But hey, what do I know ?

Edited September 26, 2008 by Goey

[John M Knapp LMSW]

As to the trance thing:

You must first understand that what TWI did with speaking in tongues (SIT) may be different from some other groups. TWI taught that you should SIT silently to yourself. (NEVER out loud unless it was part of a ritual called a "Believers' Meeting".) Furthermore, they coupled it with the pseudo-law of believing. You were supposed to SIT while drawing a mental picture of what you desired or wished to pray for. (Perfect Prayer) We were told to do it much, much, much. So, if you found yourself stuck in a grocery store line or freeway grid-lock, you were supposed to picture various people and things while you SIT. We did this every chance we got. There is a list of 12 benefits that this supposedly facilitates. I won't bore you with the list but one of the significant "benefits" is that is supposed to be a direct communication between you and God. No small change to someone who is seeking to understand spiritual matters.

That's my 2 cents for now

Hi, Waysider,

Thanks for sharing your experience -- and the information.

The SIT technique certainly sounds like it would induce trance/dissociation. This doesn't mean it was not a true spiritual practice or experience. But it may have taught the mind to dissociate -- leading to involuntary dissociation eventually.

Did you find this?

What did you feel like when SIT? Did it feel like an altered state of consciousness? Any physical symptoms?

Thanks again!

J.

What happened to the *Speaking in Tongues* part of this quote?? It disappeared. Gone. Poof.

SIT doesn't lead to that at all (IMO), but it was part of the original post.

John --- twi taught dissociation, promoted it, sold it, and encouraged frequent participation in it.

It was bundled up (quite completely) in a class called PFAL. 12 sessions. 3 weeks long. 4 nights per week.

Be there, or be square. Renew your mind to *the word*. Brainwashing with screaming bubbles.

The more often you attended, the further ingrained you got.

And after that *class*, there were other classes to keep the mind numbed and *blissing out* for the Lord.

Once I left the org, I experienced NONE of the symptoms you mentioned.

While *in* ---- I experienced dissociation all the time. Not so these days, nor since I got *out*. :)

Hi, dmiller,

I don't know what happened to the SIT part. Curious.

Not everybody dissociates. Not everybody continues dissociating after stopping the practices. I'm glad to hear it didn't stick with you!

J.

[John M Knapp LMSW]

I got this note via PM. The author graciously gave me permission to post it anonymously to further discussiong.

I'm writing this in response about your thread about disassociation. I have a question for you but I'm too embarrassed to ask it on the forum but it's in light of your thread.

I left TWI about XXX years ago and since leaving have had terrible problems with memory loss. The toughest thing for me is remembering people's faces. I can't seem to recognize faces anymore.... I'll have conversations with folks from day to day but when I encounter them in the grocery store or on the soccer field or even the next Monday or whatever, I don't recognize them.

I've learned how to compensate for this by identifying people by the vehicle they drive or the jacket they wear or the pocketbook they carry. But faces are always a blank to me to the point where I have issues with recognizing [family member] faces.... Once I hear their voice ... then I remember them but otherwise... I'm a horribly blank page.

Is this problem I've described a residual effect that TWI had on me? I feel very impaired by this problem and I'm glad you posted about it.

Thanks for writing! I have a similar problem. I, at least, do attribute it to my time in my cult.

I can't know for certain that your problem stems to TWI, but I'm certainly suspicious.

Problems with memory are very, very common among former cult members.

Do you have any other problems with memory? Can't remember important events in your life? Periods of time, particularly during your TWI time, that are blanks? People remind you of things you did that you can't remember?

These problems can get better with time and work. Part of the solution is doing what you are doing right now, come up with techniques that help you work-around the problem ("accommodation," "compensation").

Thanks for sharing such private information -- giving me permission to post it.

J.

[waysider]

What did you feel like when SIT? Did it feel like an altered state of consciousness? Any physical symptoms?

I wouldn't say you necessarily feel anything. I mean, you can do it while you drive a car or cook breakfast or whatever. We were supposed to draw mental pictures of what we wanted or needed (must have them parallel, dontcha know?) and concentrate on the picture while we SIT. The thing is, while you are doing that, your brain shuts down part of its ability to ponder critical thought. I have cited some scientific studies that show that to be true in previous posts but don't have reference to them at the moment. I think it maybe differs from meditation in that sense. But, having never "meditated" I couldn't say for sure.

One thing that just occurred to me is that it could possibly facilitate false perception.

For example, we were supposed to pray (SIT) for leaders, especially VPW. While you are doing this, you maintain a positive image of that person even if you might know something about them that is less than desirable.

It may explain, at least to some extent, why some people had a tendency to put him (VPW) "on a pedestal".

That's how they pictured him as they spoke in tongues through the day.

All in all, I would have to say I never felt like I was in some kind of trance while I SIT.

In fact, one time I had a job that involved me working all by myself the entire day. (a physical type of job)

I would picture people and things and situations as I SANG in tongues to the melodies of popular songs. No one was there to hear me so why not, I thought. At the same time, I was actively doing my job. I don't know if that makes sense. Maybe its kinda like "whistle while you work".

The only time I might have felt lost in thought was when I would sit quietly, close my eyes and do my "lift list". That's a list of people and things and situations you are supposed to pray for. VPW was always supposed to be at the top of the list.

[frank123lol]

Twi,Liked to practice isolation from the "world"meaning everything not under thier total control.How they operated it,was use the scriptures to give it the"final authority"Cant argue with the"word.

example a place in the old testament said "the foot returning to its own lusts"Outside the "household" you would have no protection,and be"prey" to the "adversary"(devil).

Speaking in tounges,you spoke "directly" to god,thge wonderful works of god,Not everyone could speak in tounges,herafter s.i.t.wayspeak as we call it here,You had to be instructed on how to receive.Hence the classes.

sit,I think was the main "kicker"on thier control,one,it was to yourself,though collectively as a group we all did it.

The only time it was allowed outloud, was in a "believers meeting" out loud sit with interpation,a message from or for god directly to the people present,only for them,though it was always generic,bland the same,supposedly,some

had the ability to "set you on fire",though,In all my years I never heard it.

Spacing out,takes many faces,After all the crap I said,Being directly involved with as many people as I can be

has been "my way out".Frienships with the"outside" were dicouraged,I know of one individual,who once told me,

he literaly had no friends outsie twi.

[Seth R.]

John, thanks again for this thread. Something I try to keep in mind as I go through life is that what I at times experience to extremes other people may also experience but not to the degree I do. There is a wonderful realization that can only be realized through experience and that is that all of the basic things that make a cult a cult exist in all cults, so now to me TWI is no different then JW, LDS, Scientology (well maybe that's a stretch :o ) or any of the others. I only felt this after a 45 minute group session at a cult awareness conference.

For me the AFF conference I attended produced a violent emotional reaction, which helped me rearrange things in my mind. I came out the other side of it stronger, with a greater desire to fight to get my life back, and my true identity, not the cult persona.

The question of how do I know if the disassociation came from the cult experience or a traumatic upbringing? What occurs to me is I seek safety when threatened, but what is familiar is seen as safe. So if I run from one situation to another without a pause to think through all the factors and consult with sound minds about why I'm running and where I really want to go , I may just wind up in the same situation, but a different venue. This is why I'm concerned for people just jumping right back into a splinter group or a church, or even getting heavily involved here, and never reevaluating their lives.

I hope I made sense, if not please ask me to explain what I mean,

Seth

[John M Knapp LMSW]

I hope I made sense, if not please ask me to explain what I mean,

Seth

Seth,

You made wonderful sense -- at least to me!

J.

[Tzaia]

You sometimes talk aloud to yourself when you are alone

Wow, I thought that was only a problem when you started hearing responses. <_<

I'm bipolar with a raging, mean manic side that rears its head when I'm stressed. I use self-talk as a means of dealing with the impulsiveness that accompanies the manic side. I don't find myself disassociating in that situation. I see it more as a self-soothing thing as talking it through tends to calm me down.

[excathedra]

seth, i understand you

and you to tz

--

i did want to clarify something that happened to me when i was describing my experience above

i had an out of body experience as in floating watching the situation

uh oh

[Seth R.]

About this "You sometimes talk aloud to yourself when you are alone"

It's getting better but I still do it, and I hate it.

(this is something I haven't shared with many people)

Shortly after I left TWI I was hired to work for a Software Company, I had a really bad time I would sit in my cubicle repeating over and over outloud to myself. "I am Seth Rosen, I'm Seth Rosen..." It was torture I couldn't stop I'd say "I'm stupid" I'd utter curses and just mutter, I was really a mess.

I even want to forget those things now, but it seems I need to face how sick I was and try to understand and heal.

Seth

[John M Knapp LMSW]

Seth and excath,

You are so generous in sharing your experiences here. You may help others who are reading here.

But please remember, these "symptoms" are only problems if they cause pain or dysfunction in your life.

Everyone dissociates sometimes. Only you can say whether it is a problem for you.

Some people leaving cults have internalized perfectionism or the belief that "there's something wrong with me." They may find minor things that are off and think of them as huge problems. This may be due to the exaggerated perfectionism or blaming the victim that took place in the cult.

I'm not saying that this is happening to ANYONE here. If you tell me you are in pain, I take you at face value. You are the expert about your experience.

But I also hope that my list of symptoms aren't a cause for worry or pain in its own right.

Does that make sense?

J.

[Seth R.]

Seth and excath,

You are so generous in sharing your experiences here. You may help others who are reading here.

But please remember, these "symptoms" are only problems if they cause pain or dysfunction in your life.

Everyone dissociates sometimes. Only you can say whether it is a problem for you.

Some people leaving cults have internalized perfectionism or the belief that "there's something wrong with me." They may find minor things that are off and think of them as huge problems. This may be due to the exaggerated perfectionism or blaming the victim that took place in the cult.

I'm not saying that this is happening to ANYONE here. If you tell me you are in pain, I take you at face value. You are the expert about your experience.

But I also hope that my list of symptoms aren't a cause for worry or pain in its own right.

Does that make sense?

J.

Yes I understand, it makes sense. Something I noticed in the real world is that anyone can have any of these symptoms but not be involved with an abusive group. So comes the question, does the cult induce these, or attract people with these. From my experience I would have to say about 50/50, certainly as outreach and witnesses we wanted to get and help anyone, some of the folks I worked with during my WOW year needed psych meds more then Jesus.

Which brings me to my next topic/question. Have you worked with people who on reflecting realize they weren't searching for anything until they were told that something was missing? As I look back the need to search was manufactured for me, and the illusion of needing to find God and get saved were made worse by everyone opposing my desire to find what I didn't know I needed until I was told I did.

The problem of cults specifically and religion in general is they make up a product or a story about the product I call that the Big Story, and then in order to sell the Big Story they need to convince you that you are a character in that story, that you need the product. If I don't accept the story, they tell me another story for free, it's a short story but it's about what happens to those who don't buy the Big Story it's a commercial. I mean it's like laundry soap commercials, I use whatever I buy on sale that doesn't make me itch, but if I watch a laundry soap commercial I might find out that my clothes are 10% dingier then clothes washed with XYZ brand. So now I have a need I didn't know I had, now I need to find this XYZ brand because I don't want to go to laundry hell.

I suspect people are more likely to research different laundry soaps more then they research the religion they are involved with or are about to get involved with and do the comparison. Hardly anyone I know has taken time to actually do some comparative religion and see how similar they all are, most only know what their Pastor or Priest tell them. Most people raised in religion are taught to believe in God, Jesus and Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Faerie one by one they stop believing in them except for God and Jesus. My question is why? How is the story of Jesus any more valid then Santa Clause? I have yet to have anyone answer sanely and authoritatively certainly they have no references outside of the scripture. Why?

Sorry for the slight derail.

Seth

[excathedra]

In response to the opening post, I think many of the symptoms listed are symptoms of abuse

abuse wherever you may have found it

[John M Knapp LMSW]

In response to the opening post, I think many of the symptoms listed are symptoms of abuse

abuse wherever you may have found it

Hi, excath,

This is quite true. There are a variety of things people do in response to strong or severe stress. Dissociation is one of them. It's not unique to cult veterans. But it appears that former cult members dissociate not only more than the general population, they dissociate more than clinical populations as well. (Clinical populations are people in treatment.)

But your point is well taken. Many people dissociate, not just cult veterans.

J.

[frank123lol]

But your point is well taken. Many people dissociate, not just cult veterans.

I like that "cult veterans".Wonder if you can be honorably dischargedfrom one?

[Mike]

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Could you repeat the question??? :unsure: