I do not believe that once a Christian is born again (Romans 10:9-10) that they can be possessed by an evil spirit. I believe they can be tempted and influenced to commit sin, but I do not believe they can be possessed.
Do you know of any scripture that would indicate that I am wrong. Many scriptures come to mind that I believe support my thinking that a born again Christian cannot be possessed, for instance....we were bought with a price (Jesus Christ dies for us) and other scripture like 1 John 4:4 "...and have overcome THEM because greater is he that is IN YOU than he that is in the world."
I am interested in knowing of any scripture on either side of this topic.
Here is what Wierwille taught in the Advanced Class.
Page 19
A born-again believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or possess mind and/or body, but not spirit.
A daughter of Abraham (believer). Compare Luke 13:16; Romans 4:3,11,16; 9:6-8.
Illustration.
(a) Natural man of just body and soul would not murder.
(b) Spiritual man of body, soul and spirit would not murder.
Disclaimer: I personally believe this stuff is a load of horse crap but you wanted some scriptures so there ya go.
EDIT
FWIW---This verbiage is inconsistent with Wierwille's phrasing (he would never interchange the words "evil spirit" with "devil spirit" unless he was quoting someone.), leading me to believe he swiped this from one of the multitude of sources he plagiarized.
I am with you on this one waysider being possessed by an evil spirit or demon spirit is B.S to me. I was raised as a catholic. I was never taught this nonsence.
I am with you on this one waysider being possessed by an evil spirit or demon spirit is B.S to me. I was raised as a catholic. I was never taught this nonsence.
Well, here's the kicker for you.
In The Way, you might have been labeled as having a "Spirit of Slumber"--Romans 11:8 (can't see the truth of God's Word)-----from page 20/AC
So if I do not see it from their point of view then there is something wrong with me? Well whatever is left of the way they can have it! Well least I "outed "someone who deserved it.
Well John milton once said I quoting him "Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven". That is I rather rule here at the GSC with all you ex-wayers than to serve in the TWI's heaven. I am having a great time here!
I once saw no less than an ordained minister on TV raging and yelling and spewing spittle out of his mouth, ... and for a moment I coulda _swore_ I saw his head spin around! :blink:
Then I realized that he was talking about Obama. ... Hey! I'm just saying. ;)
I've bought a few books from E.W. Kenyon recently. As far I can pick up when your born again Satan can't touch you at all. He talks about the New Creation at the birth and talks in detail about the adversary is powerless over us. We have words(the Word of God a.k.a faith)to stop the Devil in his tracks. I'm like reading 3 books at once. The 4th one has to wait. So far a lot is in the blue book which was taken from E.W. Kenyon. Law of beliving, righteousness and so on. E.W. is more precise. The books I have are Jesus the Healer, The Two Kinds of Faith, Two Kinds of Righteosness and Advanced Bible Course. Granted B.G.Leonard taught his classes about the Devil. Havenn't taken his classes but before vp people were teaching about it.
Bottom line - one was afforded no "protection" or relief from "evil spirits" in TWI, which was nothing short of ironic since TWI was supposed to set one free from that sort of stuff. Having an independent thought that one was stupid enough to utter out loud was enough to be pronounced "possessed," particularly if one's place in the structure was close to the bottom.
The only people who struck me as being "possessed" were the people who blindly followed orders to their own detriment for fear of being labeled as possessed.
It has never been anything more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control.
I do not believe that once a Christian is born again (Romans 10:9-10) that they can be possessed by an evil spirit. I believe they can be tempted and influenced to commit sin, but I do not believe they can be possessed.
Do you know of any scripture that would indicate that I am wrong. Many scriptures come to mind that I believe support my thinking that a born again Christian cannot be possessed, for instance....we were bought with a price (Jesus Christ dies for us) and other scripture like 1 John 4:4 "...and have overcome THEM because greater is he that is IN YOU than he that is in the world."
I am interested in knowing of any scripture on either side of this topic.
Acts 5:16 Â There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
I'm thinking that these folks were probably believers.
Acts 8:7 Â For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were
lame, were healed.
I'm thinking that these folks were probably believers also.
Acts 19:12 Â So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
And these. But maybe not.
1 Corinthians 12:10 Â To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I think these operations are energized by God most efficaciously withing the body of those who already believe. Again, I suppose, theoretically, I could be wrong.
1 Timothy 4:1  ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
In order to depart from the faith, these "some" must first be of the faith, no? "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..." Again, I guess you would have to define "possession" in order to answer the question. No one is totally possessed. Whenever most people, in my experience, speak of possession - if they are speaking in practical terms , they are speaking of particular functions of the body or mind of an individual that are being controlled.
If one doesn't believe in possession at all, then there is no reason to ask the question, but if we accept that spirits can control particular functions of a person's body or mind, I see no reason biblically to assume that activity automatically ceases whenever one is born again.
I would think you need to know what 'possesed' means as well as 'christian'.
By experienceing these things and not some scripture or definition.
IMO, this is a valid statement. The truths of the bible are meant to be known experientially as well as understood with the apprehension of an individual. There is little foundation to build upon in this field in the mind of someone who has never experienced these realities in his/her own life or in the lives of others - whether the other is born again or not. It's like someone considering whether certain sophisticated electrical systems models might work in particular applications when the individual never made the intro class on basic theory their own.
Bottom line - one was afforded no "protection" or relief from "evil spirits" in TWI, which was nothing short of ironic since TWI was supposed to set one free from that sort of stuff. Having an independent thought that one was stupid enough to utter out loud was enough to be pronounced "possessed," particularly if one's place in the structure was close to the bottom.
The only people who struck me as being "possessed" were the people who blindly followed orders to their own detriment for fear of being labeled as possessed.
It has never been anything more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control.
Tzaia, you would have to have been involved every time and every place "It" was present to be in a position to say, "It has never been anything more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control." with credibility. I don't think anyone involved here would deny that "It" wasn't used for nothing "more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control" in TWI during certain periods in certain areas - sometimes more than others. But that doesn't mean it was always used that way.
Besides, the original question didn't limit the discussion to TWI.
Tzaia, you would have to have been involved every time and every place "It" was present to be in a position to say, "It has never been anything more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control." with credibility. I don't think anyone involved here would deny that "It" wasn't used for nothing "more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control" in TWI during certain periods in certain areas - sometimes more than others. But that doesn't mean it was always used that way.
Besides, the original question didn't limit the discussion to TWI.
revision: Frequently it was used as a control tactic or as an excuse for lack of control.
There was some understanding of the human mind during the time people were writing down the stories used to make a point about Jesus (more than I was aware of until recently), however when it came to things that had to do with religious stuff, the spirit world was invoked more often than not as a reason or explanation because reason was not factor in Christian religious beliefs until Luther.
In The Way, you might have been labeled as having a "Spirit of Slumber"--Romans 11:8 (can't see the truth of God's Word)-----from page 20/AC
Ironically, that verse says it is God who give this. . . . and it is not inconsistent with the Old Testament teaching of God judicially hardening Pharaohs heart.
Tom, :)
VP is a perfect example of someone who departed from the faith. He was in the church and he intellectually assented to the gospel. He, at one time even preached it BUT. . . . he was never of it.
Your body can be physically present, your lips can be moving, but your heart can be far from the Lord. You can even believe the gospel, quote it, memorize and teach it. . . . it is not about an assessment and agreement of the facts. . . . the facts or words do not save you. . . . it is faith or complete trust in Jesus as the only savior, yielding your life to His Lordship.
Jesus is Lord. . . . and Jesus is savior. . . every knee will bow to His Lordship. . . . not every knee will be saved.
Romans 10: 9&10 is only part of the gospel message to salvation.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us for if they had been of us they would have remained with us, but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Depart from the faithful, deny the faith, and then try to deceive others.
Look what Jesus said twice. . .
John 10:28 & 29 And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand.
The Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. . . who is God. . . . for a true Christian to be possessed or indwelt by an evil spirit. . . . the spirit would have to subordinate God almighty. No, true Christians cannot be possessed.
Now, if there is such a thing as a true believer in Christ. . . . it stands to reason there must be such a thing as a false believer. That is why scripture spends so much time warning and telling us about them.
We were false believers in TWI. . . . seduced away . . . . some of us never knowing sound doctrine to begin with. . . others talked right out of it.
Just to add:. . . . that belief we held in TWI of possession goes hand in hand with the incredibly low view of God we had. . . . we needed to fill our minds with knowledge of the "word" to protect ourselves. . . . when did we ever put our faith in the Lord to keep us?
A quick search of "possessed" and "spirits" through blueletterbible.com doesn't make the point unequivocally one way or the other in my estimation. Some of the people who had spirits cast out could have been Christians, but it doesn't say unambiguously one way or the other. So we are left logical thought processes to figure it out.
One thing that I am struck with is that the process of getting possessed doesn't seem to be clearly spelled out. We are just presented with these examples of people who are possessed (or "demonized" if you will) or who "have spirits". Again, we are left to our own logical thought processes to figure out how it happens. Within TWI it was supposed to happen due to uncontrolled thoughts and ungodly habit patterns. What does "mainstream" Christianity teach about it?
A quick search of "possessed" and "spirits" through blueletterbible.com doesn't make the point unequivocally one way or the other in my estimation. Some of the people who had spirits cast out could have been Christians, but it doesn't say unambiguously one way or the other. So we are left logical thought processes to figure it out.
One thing that I am struck with is that the process of getting possessed doesn't seem to be clearly spelled out. We are just presented with these examples of people who are possessed (or "demonized" if you will) or who "have spirits". Again, we are left to our own logical thought processes to figure out how it happens. Within TWI it was supposed to happen due to uncontrolled thoughts and ungodly habit patterns. What does "mainstream" Christianity teach about it?
I think it is exactly what you say. . . . ambiguous. If one holds a high view of God(like me). . . has a high Christology. . . than they do not believe Christians can become possessed. . . but, there are pentecostals and Charismatics. . . . who would try to cast out a demon from Jesus Himself.
VP extrapolated our theology from the Word of Faith movement. . . . charismatic.
Funny . . . . . or not. . . . the religious leaders of Jesus' day. . . . accused Him of having a devil. . . . or doing miracles by the power of the devil.
I think it is exactly what you say. . . . ambiguous. If one holds a high view of God(like me). . . has a high Christology. . . than they do not believe Christians can become possessed. . . but, there are pentecostals and Charismatics. . . . who would try to cast out a demon from Jesus Himself.
VP extrapolated our theology from the Word of Faith movement. . . . charismatic.
Funny . . . . . or not. . . . the religious leaders of Jesus' day. . . . accused Him of having a devil. . . . or doing miracles by the power of the devil.
Another thing to consider is what constitutes a "true" Christian. (I think cman asked this very question early on)And once we have this definition, is there a difference in vulnerability between "true" Christians and in-name-only Christians.
I think, my own personal opinion aside, that biblically speaking, there is such a thing as possession. The point that it makes little sense for an evil spirit to have dominance over God dwelling within a person is a good one and seems to fit within the overall biblical framework, however, that same position seems to suggest that holy spirit is a magical amulet against anything bad happening to that person. Bad things do happen to good people.
Back we come to the question of what are what are the prerequisites for possession? And what are the biblical justifications (not just "logical" reasoning) for supposing that Christians are immune?
Another thing to consider is what constitutes a "true" Christian. (I think cman asked this very question early on)And once we have this definition, is there a difference in vulnerability between "true" Christians and in-name-only Christians.
I think, my own personal opinion aside, that biblically speaking, there is such a thing as possession. The point that it makes little sense for an evil spirit to have dominance over God dwelling within a person is a good one and seems to fit within the overall biblical framework, however, that same position seems to suggest that holy spirit is a magical amulet against anything bad happening to that person. Bad things do happen to good people.
Back we come to the question of what are what are the prerequisites for possession? And what are the biblical justifications (not just "logical" reasoning) for supposing that Christians are immune?
I am chuckling . . . not at you, :) but at a point you bring up that is so relevant . . . . the Holy Spirit. . .He is not a magic amulet . . . He is God. The Holy God you read about in scripture. Rumrunner has a great descriptive term for God. . . maybe not one I would think of. . . but apt. . . . the most powerful *expletive* in the universe. . . except, He is even outside the ever expanding universe as well.
So, it is not really about bad things happening to US . . . . they do. . . and I believe in a sovereign God, the one scripture reveals. . . but, it is about His holiness. Things are seldom about US in the grand scheme of things. . . they are about God.
If you have given your heart and soul over to God. . . . He has come to dwell within you. . . will He share a dwelling with evil? No. Possession indicates control. . . if you look at the gospel accounts or some really bad televangelists.
Influence is a different matter isn't it?. . . . We can be influenced, sin, and grieve the Holy Spirit.
Biblical justifications?. . . . I am afraid they might build a *logical* biblical picture for why a Christian cannot be possessed.
An aside: Whether people used reason for explaining their faith. . . when. . . . doesn't change it is a reasonable faith!! It still paints a reasonable picture. Dial it all back to life's most basic questions. . . you get a reasonable answer for the *whys*. The God and plan revealed in scripture.
This website is a collection of bible answers by some well respected Apologetics Ministers. . . . it usually gives the accepted *Mainstream* answer. . . .
"The Bible does not explicitly state whether a Christian can be possessed by a demon. However, since a Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19), it would seem unlikely that the Holy Spirit would allow a demon to possess the same person He is indwelling. This is sometimes a controversial issue; however, we strongly hold to the belief that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon. We believe there is a distinct difference between being possessed by a demon and being oppressed or influenced by a demon. Demon possession involves a demon having direct control over the thoughts and/or actions of a person (Luke 4:33-35; 8:27-33; Matthew 17:14-18). Demon oppression or influence involves a demon or demons attacking a person spiritually and/or encouraging him/her into sinful behavior (1 Peter 5:8-9; James 4:7). Notice that in all the New Testament passages dealing with spiritual warfare, we are never told to cast a demon out of a believer (Ephesians 6:10-18). Believers are told to resist the devil (1 Peter 5:8-9; James 4:7), not to cast him out.
It is unthinkable that God would allow one of His children, whom He purchased with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:18-19) and made into a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), to be possessed and controlled by a demon. Yes, as believers, we wage war with Satan and his demons, but not from within ourselves. The apostle John declares, "You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world" (1 John 4:4). Who is the One in us? The Holy Spirit. Who is the one in the world? Satan and his demons. Therefore, the believer has overcome the world of demons, and the case for demon possession of a believer cannot be made scripturally."
Recommended Posts
year2027
\Ood
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
i love
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
I would think you need to know what 'possesed' means as well as 'christian'.
By experienceing these things and not some scripture or definition.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God
Beloved cman and Paradiseden
God L
thanh
Roy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
I wonder which I am
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Here is what Wierwille taught in the Advanced Class.
Page 19
A born-again believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or possess mind and/or body, but not spirit.
A daughter of Abraham (believer). Compare Luke 13:16; Romans 4:3,11,16; 9:6-8.
Illustration.
(a) Natural man of just body and soul would not murder.
(b) Spiritual man of body, soul and spirit would not murder.
© Thus, one in whom a spirit of murder dwells is the only one who would murder.
Disclaimer: I personally believe this stuff is a load of horse crap but you wanted some scriptures so there ya go.
EDIT
FWIW---This verbiage is inconsistent with Wierwille's phrasing (he would never interchange the words "evil spirit" with "devil spirit" unless he was quoting someone.), leading me to believe he swiped this from one of the multitude of sources he plagiarized.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
nyunknown
I am with you on this one waysider being possessed by an evil spirit or demon spirit is B.S to me. I was raised as a catholic. I was never taught this nonsence.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Well, here's the kicker for you.
In The Way, you might have been labeled as having a "Spirit of Slumber"--Romans 11:8 (can't see the truth of God's Word)-----from page 20/AC
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nyunknown
So if I do not see it from their point of view then there is something wrong with me? Well whatever is left of the way they can have it! Well least I "outed "someone who deserved it.
Edited by nyunknownLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
BINGO!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nyunknown
Well John milton once said I quoting him "Better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven". That is I rather rule here at the GSC with all you ex-wayers than to serve in the TWI's heaven. I am having a great time here!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
I once saw no less than an ordained minister on TV raging and yelling and spewing spittle out of his mouth,
... and for a moment I coulda _swore_ I saw his head spin around! :blink:
Then I realized that he was talking about Obama. ... Hey! I'm just saying. ;)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Was Lady Macbeth an AC grad?
Out, damned spot! out, I say!
(probably an "unclean" spirit)
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Master Jedi Jack Sparrow
I've bought a few books from E.W. Kenyon recently. As far I can pick up when your born again Satan can't touch you at all. He talks about the New Creation at the birth and talks in detail about the adversary is powerless over us. We have words(the Word of God a.k.a faith)to stop the Devil in his tracks. I'm like reading 3 books at once. The 4th one has to wait. So far a lot is in the blue book which was taken from E.W. Kenyon. Law of beliving, righteousness and so on. E.W. is more precise. The books I have are Jesus the Healer, The Two Kinds of Faith, Two Kinds of Righteosness and Advanced Bible Course. Granted B.G.Leonard taught his classes about the Devil. Havenn't taken his classes but before vp people were teaching about it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Bottom line - one was afforded no "protection" or relief from "evil spirits" in TWI, which was nothing short of ironic since TWI was supposed to set one free from that sort of stuff. Having an independent thought that one was stupid enough to utter out loud was enough to be pronounced "possessed," particularly if one's place in the structure was close to the bottom.
The only people who struck me as being "possessed" were the people who blindly followed orders to their own detriment for fear of being labeled as possessed.
It has never been anything more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Acts 5:16 Â There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
I'm thinking that these folks were probably believers.
Acts 8:7 Â For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were
lame, were healed.
I'm thinking that these folks were probably believers also.
Acts 19:12 Â So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
And these. But maybe not.
1 Corinthians 12:10 Â To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I think these operations are energized by God most efficaciously withing the body of those who already believe. Again, I suppose, theoretically, I could be wrong.
1 Timothy 4:1  ¶Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
In order to depart from the faith, these "some" must first be of the faith, no? "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..." Again, I guess you would have to define "possession" in order to answer the question. No one is totally possessed. Whenever most people, in my experience, speak of possession - if they are speaking in practical terms , they are speaking of particular functions of the body or mind of an individual that are being controlled.
If one doesn't believe in possession at all, then there is no reason to ask the question, but if we accept that spirits can control particular functions of a person's body or mind, I see no reason biblically to assume that activity automatically ceases whenever one is born again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
IMO, this is a valid statement. The truths of the bible are meant to be known experientially as well as understood with the apprehension of an individual. There is little foundation to build upon in this field in the mind of someone who has never experienced these realities in his/her own life or in the lives of others - whether the other is born again or not. It's like someone considering whether certain sophisticated electrical systems models might work in particular applications when the individual never made the intro class on basic theory their own.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Tzaia, you would have to have been involved every time and every place "It" was present to be in a position to say, "It has never been anything more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control." with credibility. I don't think anyone involved here would deny that "It" wasn't used for nothing "more than a control tactic, or an excuse for lack of control" in TWI during certain periods in certain areas - sometimes more than others. But that doesn't mean it was always used that way.
Besides, the original question didn't limit the discussion to TWI.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
revision: Frequently it was used as a control tactic or as an excuse for lack of control.
There was some understanding of the human mind during the time people were writing down the stories used to make a point about Jesus (more than I was aware of until recently), however when it came to things that had to do with religious stuff, the spirit world was invoked more often than not as a reason or explanation because reason was not factor in Christian religious beliefs until Luther.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Ironically, that verse says it is God who give this. . . . and it is not inconsistent with the Old Testament teaching of God judicially hardening Pharaohs heart.
Tom, :)
VP is a perfect example of someone who departed from the faith. He was in the church and he intellectually assented to the gospel. He, at one time even preached it BUT. . . . he was never of it.
Your body can be physically present, your lips can be moving, but your heart can be far from the Lord. You can even believe the gospel, quote it, memorize and teach it. . . . it is not about an assessment and agreement of the facts. . . . the facts or words do not save you. . . . it is faith or complete trust in Jesus as the only savior, yielding your life to His Lordship.
Jesus is Lord. . . . and Jesus is savior. . . every knee will bow to His Lordship. . . . not every knee will be saved.
Romans 10: 9&10 is only part of the gospel message to salvation.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us for if they had been of us they would have remained with us, but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
Depart from the faithful, deny the faith, and then try to deceive others.
Look what Jesus said twice. . .
John 10:28 & 29 And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand.
The Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. . . who is God. . . . for a true Christian to be possessed or indwelt by an evil spirit. . . . the spirit would have to subordinate God almighty. No, true Christians cannot be possessed.
Now, if there is such a thing as a true believer in Christ. . . . it stands to reason there must be such a thing as a false believer. That is why scripture spends so much time warning and telling us about them.
We were false believers in TWI. . . . seduced away . . . . some of us never knowing sound doctrine to begin with. . . others talked right out of it.
Just to add:. . . . that belief we held in TWI of possession goes hand in hand with the incredibly low view of God we had. . . . we needed to fill our minds with knowledge of the "word" to protect ourselves. . . . when did we ever put our faith in the Lord to keep us?
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
A quick search of "possessed" and "spirits" through blueletterbible.com doesn't make the point unequivocally one way or the other in my estimation. Some of the people who had spirits cast out could have been Christians, but it doesn't say unambiguously one way or the other. So we are left logical thought processes to figure it out.
One thing that I am struck with is that the process of getting possessed doesn't seem to be clearly spelled out. We are just presented with these examples of people who are possessed (or "demonized" if you will) or who "have spirits". Again, we are left to our own logical thought processes to figure out how it happens. Within TWI it was supposed to happen due to uncontrolled thoughts and ungodly habit patterns. What does "mainstream" Christianity teach about it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I think it is exactly what you say. . . . ambiguous. If one holds a high view of God(like me). . . has a high Christology. . . than they do not believe Christians can become possessed. . . but, there are pentecostals and Charismatics. . . . who would try to cast out a demon from Jesus Himself.
VP extrapolated our theology from the Word of Faith movement. . . . charismatic.
Funny . . . . . or not. . . . the religious leaders of Jesus' day. . . . accused Him of having a devil. . . . or doing miracles by the power of the devil.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I think, my own personal opinion aside, that biblically speaking, there is such a thing as possession. The point that it makes little sense for an evil spirit to have dominance over God dwelling within a person is a good one and seems to fit within the overall biblical framework, however, that same position seems to suggest that holy spirit is a magical amulet against anything bad happening to that person. Bad things do happen to good people.
Back we come to the question of what are what are the prerequisites for possession? And what are the biblical justifications (not just "logical" reasoning) for supposing that Christians are immune?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I am chuckling . . . not at you, :) but at a point you bring up that is so relevant . . . . the Holy Spirit. . .He is not a magic amulet . . . He is God. The Holy God you read about in scripture. Rumrunner has a great descriptive term for God. . . maybe not one I would think of. . . but apt. . . . the most powerful *expletive* in the universe. . . except, He is even outside the ever expanding universe as well.
So, it is not really about bad things happening to US . . . . they do. . . and I believe in a sovereign God, the one scripture reveals. . . but, it is about His holiness. Things are seldom about US in the grand scheme of things. . . they are about God.
If you have given your heart and soul over to God. . . . He has come to dwell within you. . . will He share a dwelling with evil? No. Possession indicates control. . . if you look at the gospel accounts or some really bad televangelists.
Influence is a different matter isn't it?. . . . We can be influenced, sin, and grieve the Holy Spirit.
Biblical justifications?. . . . I am afraid they might build a *logical* biblical picture for why a Christian cannot be possessed.
An aside: Whether people used reason for explaining their faith. . . when. . . . doesn't change it is a reasonable faith!! It still paints a reasonable picture. Dial it all back to life's most basic questions. . . you get a reasonable answer for the *whys*. The God and plan revealed in scripture.
This website is a collection of bible answers by some well respected Apologetics Ministers. . . . it usually gives the accepted *Mainstream* answer. . . .
http://www.gotquesti...-possessed.html
"The Bible does not explicitly state whether a Christian can be possessed by a demon. However, since a Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19), it would seem unlikely that the Holy Spirit would allow a demon to possess the same person He is indwelling. This is sometimes a controversial issue; however, we strongly hold to the belief that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon. We believe there is a distinct difference between being possessed by a demon and being oppressed or influenced by a demon. Demon possession involves a demon having direct control over the thoughts and/or actions of a person (Luke 4:33-35; 8:27-33; Matthew 17:14-18). Demon oppression or influence involves a demon or demons attacking a person spiritually and/or encouraging him/her into sinful behavior (1 Peter 5:8-9; James 4:7). Notice that in all the New Testament passages dealing with spiritual warfare, we are never told to cast a demon out of a believer (Ephesians 6:10-18). Believers are told to resist the devil (1 Peter 5:8-9; James 4:7), not to cast him out.
It is unthinkable that God would allow one of His children, whom He purchased with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:18-19) and made into a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17), to be possessed and controlled by a demon. Yes, as believers, we wage war with Satan and his demons, but not from within ourselves. The apostle John declares, "You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world" (1 John 4:4). Who is the One in us? The Holy Spirit. Who is the one in the world? Satan and his demons. Therefore, the believer has overcome the world of demons, and the case for demon possession of a believer cannot be made scripturally."
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.