Straw man argument....... I see no evidence of anyone silencing any voice, nor anyone declaring that they want to ,or even would like such a thing to happen ,
No one's done that on PAGE 1 OF THIS THREAD.
It's an old story at the GSC, and has repeated a lot-just not SPECIFICALLY in the last 24 hours.
In fact time and again I have seen people go out of their way to post over and over that certainly opinions are welcome, that is the purpose of a discussion fourm.
But opinions are just that ,they are not necessarily fact, or factual, when they are assumed to be so , due to likeability of the speaker, agreement with the mission, or agenda at hand and other reasons rather than the generally accepted methods we have in place for determining what is and what is not factual then I see some having a problem with declaration of truth without the supporting evidence of such.
I have a problem with all the times personal testimony and eyewitness testimony has been downgraded to
"opinion" by a handful of posters.
Here's an easy difference between the three:
"vpw told me he liked to [describes a criminal act] on three different occasions."
That's personal testimony.
"You made that up because you're bitter. He didn't say that to you."
That's opinion.
"I was there the day vpw stood there and yelled at her until she had a nervous breakdown. [Describes.]"
That's eyewitness testimony.
"People only speak up with these allegations now because they're eager to blame vpw for all their problems."
That's opinion.
All examples made up for this post, to prevent singling anyone out.
I understand it was best for those bringing suit--that is NOT my point--I stand firmly with the ones bringing suit and can't imagine the courage it took to do as they did. I am supportive of whatever was best for them and their families! . . . . . But TWI kinda bought their get out of jail free card with a settlement. The ugly truth was never exposed in court.
We will disagree on this First there could have been a day in court for everyone, no one seemed interested enough when he was alive. Second I don't agree that it was best to settle ,it shows to me the motive...... money, we saw how fast Waydale closed when the cash came out. I think there is a greater motive justice, they could have not been able to buy any get out of jail fee card had they not settled. Everyone has their reasons for doing what they do, and that is their deal their choice, so be it, but my opinion is that they did no one but themselves any favors by settling.
"No one seemed interested enough when he was alive."
That is supposition 1.
Why did none of the people who were legally ABLE to sue, sue?
WD has already decided all of them didn't "seem interested", they didn't CARE.
WD seems to not even acknowledge the concept
"the courage to do as they did" for those who DID bring a suit.
When individuals go up against big corporations, lawyers either tell them not to bother, or point
out they have little chance to win- corporations have batteries of lawyers to provide the
best "justice" that money can buy.
Any one person going up against twi on a cold, objective basis is at a strong tactical DISadvantage
based on the amount of resources a corporation (like twi) can bring to bear in a suit-
resources that can be used to befuddle, obscure, obfuscate, and misdirect from what can
even be an open-and-shut case. (Johnnie Cochran was hardly the first lawyer who made
a reputation for doing this sort of thing. I can trace it back to the Greek Empire, others may
be able to trace it further back.)
Add on the actual situations, and anyone seeking to come forward is at a stronger disadvantage.
People were conditioned to believe that to go against twi and against vpw is to go against the will
of God Almighty. (For some people, this has stuck for DECADES.)
Add to THAT the careful setting of place and time-selecting the people least likely to talk, sending
someone as an "exit counselor" to check if they were going to talk, and destroying the few that
WOULD talk by kicking them out, then savaging their reputation before they got home so no one
would believe them even IF they talked after having been victimized, confused, and made to feel
like they were less than dirt and failed God Almighty.
We have plenty of personal testimony and eyewitness accounts that agree, and form a rather
complete picture, starting with how victims were selected, down to what was done to silence them.
=========
Technically, yes, those who DID bring suit and settled out-of-court benefitted themselves and their
families, but didn't benefit the rest of us as much as they might if they had gone forth to a full trial.
I would not expect them to have done so, however. Lots of people settle out-of-court when the
other party is in the wrong. It spares themselves and their families months and years where their
lives revolve around a court case, where they will be unable to move past the case, and be put on
the witness stand while the other side attempts to paint them as liars, corrupt, and otherwise evil
day after day, all for seeking justice.
That's a noble goal, but an impractical one for someone who actually has to WORK for a living,
and who cares more about their family's well-being than the Platonic ideal of "Justice."
If you would consider all of those, and still be willing to sacrifice your family on the altar of ideals
(AFTER leaving twi-many of us did that once or more than once IN twi), then all I can say is,
I'm glad for your family that you haven't been given this "opportunity" to "demonstrate your
commitment to your ideals."
===========
As for those who didn't sue, yes, legally, many COULD have sued. To assume "disinterest" - or, to the
point, APATHY, as the reason they didn't sue, assumes a great deal.
Technically, T*m M1tch311 could have sued lcm for ruining his marriage and nailing his wife.
(I'm sure there's a number of crimes that can be charged for such things, including breaching of
fiduciary trust and so on.) Was T*m DISINTERESTED? Was he apathetic?
His immediate response, when he couldn't save his marriage from lcm, was to shout an outburst
about it, then to go blow his brains out with a handgun. That doesn't sound like a DISINTERESTED
or apathetic guy to me. It sounds like a guy who was carefully manipulated to the degree that he was
unable to see he had recourse to the courts-or was convinced it was against God's will to sue twi or
anyone in it- or was convinced he had no hope of winning, or of salvaging his life from that point.
I agree "everyone has their reasons" for what the did, and what they did not do,
and I'll go so far as to say that we agree that T*m chose poorly among his options.
However, that having been said, LACK OF INTEREST was hardly a consideration for him.
To claim he was the only one for whom that applied would be silly.
(I'm using him as my example because I knew him before lcm ruined his life and T*m
blew his brains out. Others speak of the victims THEY knew.)
It's an old story at the GSC, and has repeated a lot-just not SPECIFICALLY in the last 24 hours.
Perhaps you missed this one........
QUOTE (rascal @ Sep 29 2008, 07:44 AM)
That is what Greasespot is here for, to tell the OTHER side of the story...OURS! The story that twi managed to keep silent through intimidation, manipulation, excomunication, lies, slandered reputations, and millions in legal fees.
Darned RIGHT many of us have an opinion on that, and gosh darn it, are free to express it, as distasteful as some may find it, as doggedly as a few have tried to once again silence the voices of those mistreated and abused.
I have a problem with all the times personal testimony and eyewitness testimony has been downgraded to
"opinion" by a handful of posters.
Actually testimony is generally used in connection to a law case. this is a discussion form as such people do not testify in that sense (although some do anyway) People offer opinions here they are not proven they are what they are ,so to speak Now interesting in testimony is the definition
Evidence in support of a fact or assertion; proof.
I seen none of those here, as I have often pointed out there is no facts presented, no evidence per say only the words of posters pro and con. Each could be right who decides without facts, evidence?
tes·ti·mo·ny (těs'tə-mō'nē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. tes·ti·mo·nies
A declaration by a witness under oath, as that given before a court or deliberative body.
All such declarations, spoken or written, offered in a legal case or deliberative hearing.
The stone tablets inscribed with the Law of Moses.
The ark containing these tablets.
Evidence in support of a fact or assertion; proof.
A public declaration regarding a religious experience.
Here's an easy difference between the three:
"vpw told me he liked to [describes a criminal act] on three different occasions."
That's personal testimony.
"You made that up because you're bitter. He didn't say that to you."
That's opinion.
"I was there the day vpw stood there and yelled at her until she had a nervous breakdown. [Describes.]"
That's eyewitness testimony.
"People only speak up with these allegations now because they're eager to blame vpw for all their problems."
That's opinion.
All examples made up for this post, to prevent singling anyone out.
Here is some more examples for you
VP is a (describes a criminal act] - accusation of guilt unproven by any fact or evidence thus opinion not testimony (also libel a crime in some states). testimony relates to the law and court with fact or evidence of which none is present.
In my opinion VP is a (describes a criminal act] - correctly stated opinion
Additional note person testimony is not proven testimony nor is it unproven either. It is words recorded and filtered through a process of law questioned, proven, matched with facts to see if it is in fact true or false. because one says so does not automatically make it true.
I've hardly been around for months and the first thing I see is the same old derailment routine from White Dove about all the crimes "allegedly" committed by twi leadership that no one bothered to take to court because they weren't "interested" at the time.
wtf. same old close-minded victim bashing.
it takes a lot more than interest to fight sick and twisted abusers. I bet that little girl who was abused was afraid for a long time... it wasn't lack of interest that made her keep it a secret for so long. I think it was the same for the women raped by vpw and lcm, and for the wives who were battered and emotionally controlled by their koolaid drinking husbands.
it's hard enough to walk out, much less take it to a court of law, when you'd been mentally attacked and controlled for years. religious rapists are like family rapists, they're close to their victims, making it easier to control them and make them ashamed and afraid to report the crime.
I've hardly been around for months and the first thing I see is the same old derailment routine from White Dove about all the crimes "allegedly" committed by twi leadership that no one bothered to take to court because they weren't "interested" at the time.
wtf. same old close-minded victim bashing.
it takes a lot more than interest to fight sick and twisted abusers. I bet that little girl who was abused was afraid for a long time... it wasn't lack of interest that made her keep it a secret for so long. I think it was the same for the women raped by vpw and lcm, and for the wives who were battered and emotionally controlled by their koolaid drinking husbands.
it's hard enough to walk out, much less take it to a court of law, when you'd been mentally attacked and controlled for years. religious rapists are like family rapists, they're close to their victims, making it easier to control them and make them ashamed and afraid to report the crime.
So its hard? Life is Hard AND????
And yet many seem to find a inner strength to do so, Don't they? I say good for them. It certainly must be possible The Allens seemed to find a way ,so did January and some others on the horizon maybe
Oh and by the way my response was to the same old tired close minded intimidation, manipulation, abuse and on and on rap.
it's hard enough to walk out, much less take it to a court of law, when you'd been mentally attacked and controlled for years. religious rapists are like family rapists, they're close to their victims, making it easier to control them and make them ashamed and afraid to report the crime.
I'll mention Kristen long enough to note that this is exactly the situation that she lives in her account of abuse. I get the feeling from her account that the fear and shame is not only from what others may think...or do, but of being forced to live the abuse all over again. Just by telling about it, let alone being forced to relive every little detail and having every possible little sin, real or not, magnified in court or elsewhere. But Kristen didn't write to pretend that she was the only victim of abuse who has had to go through what potato is describing. And of course what she lived is not limited by any means to TWI followers. I would like to hear WHY it is an easy thing to do from anyone who thinks it is. I would at least listen to such an explanation, but anyone who mocks the difficulty of walkign away has the sensitivity of rough sandpaper IMO.
Oh, and potato, when you posted some months or a year ago, I don't remember exactly when, I expressed some skepticism at some abuse you went through because you wouldn't reveal every little detail. For that I'm sorry.
And Ex cathedra, thanks for the little lesson on abuse in chat, it helps me understand this situation better as well.
it's hard enough to walk out, much less take it to a court of law, when you'd been mentally attacked and controlled for years. religious rapists are like family rapists, they're close to their victims, making it easier to control them and make them ashamed and afraid to report the crime.
Not only that, but since this discussion got spread out a little from its original post. I want to use that to point out a very important difference. It is well known that a child cannot legally give consent to sexual acts. but an adult can. Therefore, if an adult is charged with the rape of another adult, the prosecution has to prove not only that the act happened, but that the victim did not give consent. Think of yourself as a skillful attorney concerned only with getting the best results for your client, who (unless the client has to have a court-appointed attorney I guess) is paying you to do just that... i.e keep your client out of jail and keep him from being labeled as a sex offender. Doing anything you can to cast doubt that you client shoulders all the responsibility will mean exposing or even manufacturing (and magnifying) any shortcomings the victim might have. But more importantly, if the woman was not physically coerced into the act, you would surely seize on that. The prosecution would have to PROVE that there was coercion, and that becomes some task, even if some of us who were in TWI can understand. Who want to go through having their life torn apart and exposed to put the rapist in jail, much less if the chance of doing so are nil?
Oh, and potato, when you posted some months or a year ago, I don't remember exactly when, I expressed some skepticism at some abuse you went through because you wouldn't reveal every little detail. For that I'm sorry.
thank you for that.
Hey! Try to play nice with the other kids! This playground is big enough for all of us.
The bottom line is this is about fighting them, not fighting each other; so, kiss and hug or whatever it is you do and make up already.
Perfect example of how the system works. Each person has the right to pursue their claim in a real court, not the internet version. They can submit testimony for examination ,they can enter evidence, present real facts as opposed to one sided opinions, and then a jury can render a verdict. At which time one can declare guilt or innocence according to the law. Wow what a novel idea........
I gotta agree with WhiteDove on this one.
While the presumption of innocence is a building block of our legal system, it also carries over nicely when applied in personal life.
In my own experience, there have been many times where I thought wrongly that someone had done or said something I didn't like, only to find out otherwise.
Additionally, there have beentimes where things I have said or done have been misrepresented, and I was glad that someone was fair enough with me to give me a chance to present my side of things before taking a decision.
Often a case comes up involving something outrageous, such as child molestation, and reason gives way to an emotional reaction, and of course no one wants to be taken as being "soft" on child molesters, so in every case they hear of, they decide the accused is guilty right away.
This happened in the McMartin School case about 20 years ago, where children accused their teachers of all sorts of horrible crimes including sexual abuse. The community was ready to burn the teachers at the stake, and when it hit national news, so were millions of Americans.
It took a long time for the truth to come out, but all those who decided guilt merely upon hearing the accusations all got facefulls of egg when it came out the kids made it up.
The lives of those teachers were ruined and there were a number of people who never got the word when the truth came out and who still believe a false story of what took place.
Everyone should be given a chance to defend themselves, both in and out of court, before judgement is made.
It is distressing to see those who do not practice this principle, and who judge merely on the basis of an accusation.
Sometimes it takes decades before the truth comes out.
I would direct your attention to the The Innocence Project for hundreds of real life lessons to learn from.
According to their site, Marty Tankleff appeared on Oprah today. Tankleff was pressured by the po-lice into falsely confessing to a crime when he was 17 years old. He spent 17 years in prison before he was exonerated by DNA evidence.
There may come a time in our lives when we are falsely accused, and will be grateful to those who give us a chance to give our side of the story and who wait untill all the facts are in, rather than being carried away emotionally by the seriousness of the charge.
It is distressing to come across those who have seen many cases in their life, whether it is the McMartin School case, the ones given on The Innocence Project website, or examples from their own lives, but who never get around to learning the lesson of the presumption of innocence that each of those cases represent.
The Way International has accused many people while they hold on to their twisted idea of spiritual authority.
In the O.T scriptures it is the elders of Israel who were commanded to search out diligently the truth of accusations. My splinter experience along with the sharing of many people here at the Greasespot is that TWI destroyed many, many lives on the basis of false accusations alone. TWI leadership was responsible to carry out the LOVE that was behind these plainly stated OT commandments. Instead they appear; and quite convincingly IMO; as a bunch of copped out, puffed up, terds that have not, nor ever have yet faced the truth of the actions of Wierwille and his hand picked progeny.
TWI leadership and others think that the internet is an bad place to diligently seek out the truth of these things. I think that it is a good place!
Personally, I'd prefer face to face but with all the "How to make friends and influence (er, I mean manipulate) people" crapola masquerading as following Jesus Christ and TWI's army of lawyers always ready to intimidate TWI victims I am especially thankful for the Greasespot and any other places like it out there. period
So while I share in the sadness at the damage that false accusations can inflict on any person or organization, I also know first hand how puffed up and evil leadership can be the worst offenders in this category.
Dear Deciderator,
I find more than enough credibility here at the greasespot. there are many impartial sources that quote many of the things that TWI leadership has said and done, just look around some more is my advice to you. And I'm sure that many people that I've come to respect based on the content of their posts are more than capable of handling the issues at the Greasespot far, far better than those selfish liars that led TWI ever could.
And so I find the emotional sharings that accompany the realizations of these things to be just.
AS FOR LCM, GEER, ROSIE OR ANY OTHER LEADERSHIP THAT ARE ALIVE, LET THEM COME TO THE GREASESPOT AND DEFEND THEMSELVES. Chickensh!t bastards that I think they are I don't think that will happen, but I'm quite certain that Paw will not close that door Deciderator.
I value presumptive innocence, but TWI leadership has not valued it for a long, long time. Not unless they were trying to protect one of their own.
I've been thinking about a few thinks about this thread.
It's about someone who has been convicted of the crime and now must do the time. Who knows, maybe he will end up like the wrongdoer on the cross that was next to the Lord. That wise man knew that he was suffering justly for his crimes and that the Lord was innocent of wrongdoing. Then the Lord gave him that great promise. It has been one of my favorite records for a long time now.
As for those who have not yielded to the authorities for their crimes and think that the Lord will praise them, what fools they are!
With all ther stories about TWI leadership ruining lives by folks here at the Greasespot because of stupid, unfounded, and false accusation that I've heard I think that we would understand how ugly false accusations can be. It seems evident that anyone who thinks that they can tell us about false accusations is a little like trying to sing to the choir when they can't even carry a tune.
The Way International has accused many people while they hold on to their twisted idea of spiritual authority.
In the O.T scriptures it is the elders of Israel who were commanded to search out diligently the truth of accusations. My splinter experience along with the sharing of many people here at the Greasespot is that TWI destroyed many, many lives on the basis of false accusations alone. TWI leadership was responsible to carry out the LOVE that was behind these plainly stated OT commandments. Instead they appear; and quite convincingly IMO; as a bunch of copped out, puffed up, terds that have not, nor ever have yet faced the truth of the actions of Wierwille and his hand picked progeny.
Making it worse is those who object to these things have chosen to practice the very behavior the deplore in others.
TWI leadership and others think that the internet is an bad place to diligently seek out the truth of these things. I think that it is a good place!
Personally, I'd prefer face to face but with all the "How to make friends and influence (er, I mean manipulate) people" crapola masquerading as following Jesus Christ and TWI's army of lawyers always ready to intimidate TWI victims I am especially thankful for the Greasespot and any other places like it out there. period
Of course!
That way you can practice what you condemn, and get around the requirement to confront someone you have an issue with in person, privately.
The impulse to hold kangaroo courts when there is no authority to enforce the standards of fairness this country was built upon is a strong one, not easily resisted, especially with the emotional aspect of the charges exciting those with pitchforks, torches and cudgels.
So while I share in the sadness at the damage that false accusations can inflict on any person or organization, I also know first hand how puffed up and evil leadership can be the worst offenders in this category.
Dear Deciderator,
I find more than enough credibility here at the greasespot. there are many impartial sources that quote many of the things that TWI leadership has said and done, just look around some more is my advice to you. And I'm sure that many people that I've come to respect based on the content of their posts are more than capable of handling the issues at the Greasespot far, far better than those selfish liars that led TWI ever could.
I have indeed looked around.
This is not the first time I have seen people aroused to the end they abandon principles of justice.
I doubt any of them would want to have the same applied to them, to be tried, convicted, stalked and denounced without having a chance to defend themselves.
Yes, I have indeed looked around.
I have seen the appeals for Mr. Martindale and others to post here, and usually the invitation is from someone busy sharpening a great big carving knife and wiping the slobber of anticipation from the corner of their mouth with their sleeve.
The charges made are serious ones and I have not denied any of them nor have I said much, if anything in defense of those accused, other than to relay my own experience.
What I have done, is point out that proceedoing as a lynch mob is not the way to go.
Serious charges need to be dealt with seriously and dispassionately.
Serious, felonious crimes have been alleged, and the place to deal with them is the court system of the United States.
Anyone accused is entitled to be dealt with justly, and that means the opportunity to cross examine witnesses and evidence, the right to present their own evidence, to offer explanations or exculpatory evidence, to call their own witnesses, to have a presumption of innocence, and to have the right to appeal, just to name a few.
And so I find the emotional sharings that accompany the realizations of these things to be just.
AS FOR LCM, GEER, ROSIE OR ANY OTHER LEADERSHIP THAT ARE ALIVE, LET THEM COME TO THE GREASESPOT AND DEFEND THEMSELVES. Chickensh!t bastards that I think they are I don't think that will happen, but I'm quite certain that Paw will not close that door Deciderator.
Let's say they took you up on this one.
Given your outburst, above, do you think you could be considered to serve on a jury and to give a fai and just verdict, reaching a conclusion only after all the evidence was presented?
How would you like to have someone talking like that about you, before the trial, serving on a jury where you were charged with felony counts that could put you in jail for the rest of your life?
I value presumptive innocence, but TWI leadership has not valued it for a long, long time. Not unless they were trying to protect one of their own.
I can help you get past this one.
Just remember a lesson a lot of us received as children.
It's ok you didn't, but it's easy to remember and you'll find the following lesson will serve you well in the future:
JUST BECAUSE LITTLE JOHNNY DOWN THE STREET JUMPS OFF THE ROOF, IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO JUMP OFF THE ROOF, TOO!
In other words, using someone else's bad behavior to justify your mimicking that bad behavior is not the way to go...
I value presumptive innocence, but TWI leadership has not valued it for a long, long time. Not unless they were trying to protect one of their own.
And that is the very thing that makes our rights so valuable, there is no "but" in them, they are not earned or doled out based on if someone thinks another deserves them
OH REALLY?? You think the legal system is this country has ANYTHING to do with real justice? Yeah right.
The rich buy their justice and the poor go to jail. Even if you can manage an attorney--the DA can raise such a stink--you can't use the counsel you want.
If you HONESTLY think there is such a thing as justice in our system--you just might be deluded. It is hit or miss-just like this guy got his justice 50 perverts will get off.
I am so tired of hearing about a day in court--you know what a day in court means? All depends on who you are and what the system feels needs to be highlighted. It means NOTHING.
You want to do something good with your time. Find out about Minimum sentencing guidelines and lobby AGAINST THEM.
A day in court in this country has nothing to do with justice--you are better off on the internet--more truth is gleaned there--trust me our legal system BITES!
YES, INDEED IT DOES! Take for instance if a cop breaks the law by raping a woman, his fellow cops will cover up his dirty deed. Or the higher authorities will put out the word that nothing is to be done because they don't want the police force to look bad....especially in an election year.
When Twi leadership proclaimed sexual abuse victims to be "possessed" because they were starting to show signs of coming out from under their "spell" and then isolated them and destroyed their life they actually followed up their evil behavior with more. LIVES were destroyed by wicked, bloody hands.
When TWI victims despaired to the point of suicide TWI leadership had bloody hands.
When TWI leadership kicked men like Ralph Dubovsky out because he had the courage to say,"Dr. was wrong" to LCM leadership just continued their bloody rampage in peoples' lives.
When TWI leadership would rather see people suffer than change and supply then necessary remedies, they are at fault.
IF TWI LEADERSHIP AND YOU TWO THINK THAT THE GREASESPOT IS TOO ROUGH FOR THESE FOLKS THAT YOU TWO FIGHT FOR, JUST WAIT UNTIL THE LORD SEES THEM UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL LIKE; THEY HAVE BLOODY HANDS. In contrast, the apostle Paul did not.
THEY CAN PAY THE PIPER NOW, OR THEY CAN PAY LATER, it's their choice.
Still, you two have some ability with words, IMO it's just your perspective and the substance of your points that seem lacking.
(added in editing)
Hi Bride, non of this post is directed at you FYI.
Hey Greasespotters! (supply your own sarcasm as you read))
Let's all just ignore the ones who were actually called possessed, Twi leadership did it to isolate them and they are/were the "spiritual authority." After all, their experiences were mere allegations, and the counter point that in reality exersized control and authority over them, well it's all over now..... they should just shut up and get over it.
Nevermind that this thread is about a man that was ACTUALLY CONVICTED of child abuse, and that he had a history of such things in TWI fellowships. I think that if I read TWI leadership right, from their perspective it only proves that he must not have been SPIRITUAL enough in his abuse, after all, HE GOT CAUGHT!
Never mind that in order for TWI leadership to continue to be successful in NOT HAVING TO ANSWER TO THE AUTHORITIES they've employed a slew of lawyers and used every resource at their disposal. They've had yes-men for decades who were in varying degrees either corrupted or cowed into helping them pull it off.
Personally, if I heard of ANYONE WHO WAS SORRY FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND NOT ONLY OWNED UP TO THEM I'd give them every possible benefit of the doubt. For instance, I've heard reports that the ex- Mrs. John Lynn has been sorry and tried to help former victims. IMO she must be quite a woman for facing these things like that.
But for you guys who try to hide TWI actions behind innapropriately applied legal principles OUTSIDE OF THE COURT ROOM, I do not feel the same way about you as I do people like the heroic ex-Mrs. John Lynn.
You see, I'm as certain as I can be in my opinions based on numerous testimonials and my own recolection. And UNLIKE TWI LEADERSHIP, I have no direct authority over anybody to destroy them like leadership has done to many, many people. Me and the Greasespotters bear no resemblence to these bastards at all. And to you few that are comparing our actions to their's, TTTHHHPPP!!!
Perfect example of how the system works. Each person has the right to pursue their claim in a real court, not the internet version. They can submit testimony for examination ,they can enter evidence, present real facts as opposed to one sided opinions, and then a jury can render a verdict. At which time one can declare guilt or innocence according to the law. Wow what a novel idea........
And on the Internet, people can tell their stories and be judged by the merit of the story as opposed to the court system which is expensive.
If the abuser in the story feels slandered, then they can go to the court system for remedy, and enter discovery evidence, and present facts, and a judge or jury can render a verdict. At which time they could declare not guilt or innocence as those are criminal law terms not civil, but the successful outcome of a civil verdict and state the damages.
And on the Internet, people can tell their stories and be judged by the merit of the story as opposed to the court system which is expensive.
If the abuser in the story feels slandered, then they can go to the court system for remedy, and enter discovery evidence, and present facts, and a judge or jury can render a verdict. At which time they could declare not guilt or innocence as those are criminal law terms not civil, but the successful outcome of a civil verdict and state the damages.
Isn't it great how that works?
yes, it's fabulous that they have the legal right to take their "alleged" accusers to court! what a novel idea. wonder why they don't? they have the money to buy legal representation, unlike the people who they used and hurt.
we know who paid the legal costs for LCM's crimes. I didn't have money to bring a suit before the statute of limitations ran out on me, and with no recordkeeping and closed doors, all witnesses in my case would have committed perjury lest the ministry be blamed.
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No one's done that on PAGE 1 OF THIS THREAD.
It's an old story at the GSC, and has repeated a lot-just not SPECIFICALLY in the last 24 hours.
I have a problem with all the times personal testimony and eyewitness testimony has been downgraded to
"opinion" by a handful of posters.
Here's an easy difference between the three:
"vpw told me he liked to [describes a criminal act] on three different occasions."
That's personal testimony.
"You made that up because you're bitter. He didn't say that to you."
That's opinion.
"I was there the day vpw stood there and yelled at her until she had a nervous breakdown. [Describes.]"
That's eyewitness testimony.
"People only speak up with these allegations now because they're eager to blame vpw for all their problems."
That's opinion.
All examples made up for this post, to prevent singling anyone out.
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WordWolf
"No one seemed interested enough when he was alive."
That is supposition 1.
Why did none of the people who were legally ABLE to sue, sue?
WD has already decided all of them didn't "seem interested", they didn't CARE.
WD seems to not even acknowledge the concept
"the courage to do as they did" for those who DID bring a suit.
When individuals go up against big corporations, lawyers either tell them not to bother, or point
out they have little chance to win- corporations have batteries of lawyers to provide the
best "justice" that money can buy.
Any one person going up against twi on a cold, objective basis is at a strong tactical DISadvantage
based on the amount of resources a corporation (like twi) can bring to bear in a suit-
resources that can be used to befuddle, obscure, obfuscate, and misdirect from what can
even be an open-and-shut case. (Johnnie Cochran was hardly the first lawyer who made
a reputation for doing this sort of thing. I can trace it back to the Greek Empire, others may
be able to trace it further back.)
Add on the actual situations, and anyone seeking to come forward is at a stronger disadvantage.
People were conditioned to believe that to go against twi and against vpw is to go against the will
of God Almighty. (For some people, this has stuck for DECADES.)
Add to THAT the careful setting of place and time-selecting the people least likely to talk, sending
someone as an "exit counselor" to check if they were going to talk, and destroying the few that
WOULD talk by kicking them out, then savaging their reputation before they got home so no one
would believe them even IF they talked after having been victimized, confused, and made to feel
like they were less than dirt and failed God Almighty.
We have plenty of personal testimony and eyewitness accounts that agree, and form a rather
complete picture, starting with how victims were selected, down to what was done to silence them.
=========
Technically, yes, those who DID bring suit and settled out-of-court benefitted themselves and their
families, but didn't benefit the rest of us as much as they might if they had gone forth to a full trial.
I would not expect them to have done so, however. Lots of people settle out-of-court when the
other party is in the wrong. It spares themselves and their families months and years where their
lives revolve around a court case, where they will be unable to move past the case, and be put on
the witness stand while the other side attempts to paint them as liars, corrupt, and otherwise evil
day after day, all for seeking justice.
That's a noble goal, but an impractical one for someone who actually has to WORK for a living,
and who cares more about their family's well-being than the Platonic ideal of "Justice."
If you would consider all of those, and still be willing to sacrifice your family on the altar of ideals
(AFTER leaving twi-many of us did that once or more than once IN twi), then all I can say is,
I'm glad for your family that you haven't been given this "opportunity" to "demonstrate your
commitment to your ideals."
===========
As for those who didn't sue, yes, legally, many COULD have sued. To assume "disinterest" - or, to the
point, APATHY, as the reason they didn't sue, assumes a great deal.
Technically, T*m M1tch311 could have sued lcm for ruining his marriage and nailing his wife.
(I'm sure there's a number of crimes that can be charged for such things, including breaching of
fiduciary trust and so on.) Was T*m DISINTERESTED? Was he apathetic?
His immediate response, when he couldn't save his marriage from lcm, was to shout an outburst
about it, then to go blow his brains out with a handgun. That doesn't sound like a DISINTERESTED
or apathetic guy to me. It sounds like a guy who was carefully manipulated to the degree that he was
unable to see he had recourse to the courts-or was convinced it was against God's will to sue twi or
anyone in it- or was convinced he had no hope of winning, or of salvaging his life from that point.
I agree "everyone has their reasons" for what the did, and what they did not do,
and I'll go so far as to say that we agree that T*m chose poorly among his options.
However, that having been said, LACK OF INTEREST was hardly a consideration for him.
To claim he was the only one for whom that applied would be silly.
(I'm using him as my example because I knew him before lcm ruined his life and T*m
blew his brains out. Others speak of the victims THEY knew.)
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WhiteDove
Here is some more examples for you
VP is a (describes a criminal act] - accusation of guilt unproven by any fact or evidence thus opinion not testimony (also libel a crime in some states). testimony relates to the law and court with fact or evidence of which none is present.
In my opinion VP is a (describes a criminal act] - correctly stated opinion
Additional note person testimony is not proven testimony nor is it unproven either. It is words recorded and filtered through a process of law questioned, proven, matched with facts to see if it is in fact true or false. because one says so does not automatically make it true.
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bowtwi
Thank you, WordWolf.
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doojable
So.. back to the topic...
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Belle
I had forgotten that TWI was incorporated in AZ, too. Goey had posted financial information a while back that showed that, I believe.
I wonder if TWI knew about it and covered for this guy like they did so many others.
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potato
for the love of pete!
I've hardly been around for months and the first thing I see is the same old derailment routine from White Dove about all the crimes "allegedly" committed by twi leadership that no one bothered to take to court because they weren't "interested" at the time.
wtf. same old close-minded victim bashing.
it takes a lot more than interest to fight sick and twisted abusers. I bet that little girl who was abused was afraid for a long time... it wasn't lack of interest that made her keep it a secret for so long. I think it was the same for the women raped by vpw and lcm, and for the wives who were battered and emotionally controlled by their koolaid drinking husbands.
it's hard enough to walk out, much less take it to a court of law, when you'd been mentally attacked and controlled for years. religious rapists are like family rapists, they're close to their victims, making it easier to control them and make them ashamed and afraid to report the crime.
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WhiteDove
So its hard? Life is Hard AND????
And yet many seem to find a inner strength to do so, Don't they? I say good for them. It certainly must be possible The Allens seemed to find a way ,so did January and some others on the horizon maybe
Oh and by the way my response was to the same old tired close minded intimidation, manipulation, abuse and on and on rap.
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Belle
nevermind
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rascal
Thanks Wolf.
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Lifted Up
I'll mention Kristen long enough to note that this is exactly the situation that she lives in her account of abuse. I get the feeling from her account that the fear and shame is not only from what others may think...or do, but of being forced to live the abuse all over again. Just by telling about it, let alone being forced to relive every little detail and having every possible little sin, real or not, magnified in court or elsewhere. But Kristen didn't write to pretend that she was the only victim of abuse who has had to go through what potato is describing. And of course what she lived is not limited by any means to TWI followers. I would like to hear WHY it is an easy thing to do from anyone who thinks it is. I would at least listen to such an explanation, but anyone who mocks the difficulty of walkign away has the sensitivity of rough sandpaper IMO.
Oh, and potato, when you posted some months or a year ago, I don't remember exactly when, I expressed some skepticism at some abuse you went through because you wouldn't reveal every little detail. For that I'm sorry.
And Ex cathedra, thanks for the little lesson on abuse in chat, it helps me understand this situation better as well.
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ihrleben
LOL.... Bless you Ham!
__________________________________________________________________________
FOR THE CRANKY PEOPLE IN THE THREAD
Hey! Try to play nice with the other kids! This playground is big enough for all of us.
The bottom line is this is about fighting them, not fighting each other; so, kiss and hug or whatever it is you do and make up already.
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Lifted Up
Not only that, but since this discussion got spread out a little from its original post. I want to use that to point out a very important difference. It is well known that a child cannot legally give consent to sexual acts. but an adult can. Therefore, if an adult is charged with the rape of another adult, the prosecution has to prove not only that the act happened, but that the victim did not give consent. Think of yourself as a skillful attorney concerned only with getting the best results for your client, who (unless the client has to have a court-appointed attorney I guess) is paying you to do just that... i.e keep your client out of jail and keep him from being labeled as a sex offender. Doing anything you can to cast doubt that you client shoulders all the responsibility will mean exposing or even manufacturing (and magnifying) any shortcomings the victim might have. But more importantly, if the woman was not physically coerced into the act, you would surely seize on that. The prosecution would have to PROVE that there was coercion, and that becomes some task, even if some of us who were in TWI can understand. Who want to go through having their life torn apart and exposed to put the rapist in jail, much less if the chance of doing so are nil?
Hard? I can't imagine how hard it is.
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potato
thank you for that.
I don't play well with bullies
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Deciderator
I gotta agree with WhiteDove on this one.
While the presumption of innocence is a building block of our legal system, it also carries over nicely when applied in personal life.
In my own experience, there have been many times where I thought wrongly that someone had done or said something I didn't like, only to find out otherwise.
Additionally, there have beentimes where things I have said or done have been misrepresented, and I was glad that someone was fair enough with me to give me a chance to present my side of things before taking a decision.
Often a case comes up involving something outrageous, such as child molestation, and reason gives way to an emotional reaction, and of course no one wants to be taken as being "soft" on child molesters, so in every case they hear of, they decide the accused is guilty right away.
This happened in the McMartin School case about 20 years ago, where children accused their teachers of all sorts of horrible crimes including sexual abuse. The community was ready to burn the teachers at the stake, and when it hit national news, so were millions of Americans.
It took a long time for the truth to come out, but all those who decided guilt merely upon hearing the accusations all got facefulls of egg when it came out the kids made it up.
The lives of those teachers were ruined and there were a number of people who never got the word when the truth came out and who still believe a false story of what took place.
Everyone should be given a chance to defend themselves, both in and out of court, before judgement is made.
It is distressing to see those who do not practice this principle, and who judge merely on the basis of an accusation.
Sometimes it takes decades before the truth comes out.
I would direct your attention to the The Innocence Project for hundreds of real life lessons to learn from.
According to their site, Marty Tankleff appeared on Oprah today. Tankleff was pressured by the po-lice into falsely confessing to a crime when he was 17 years old. He spent 17 years in prison before he was exonerated by DNA evidence.
There may come a time in our lives when we are falsely accused, and will be grateful to those who give us a chance to give our side of the story and who wait untill all the facts are in, rather than being carried away emotionally by the seriousness of the charge.
It is distressing to come across those who have seen many cases in their life, whether it is the McMartin School case, the ones given on The Innocence Project website, or examples from their own lives, but who never get around to learning the lesson of the presumption of innocence that each of those cases represent.
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JeffSjo
The Way International has accused many people while they hold on to their twisted idea of spiritual authority.
In the O.T scriptures it is the elders of Israel who were commanded to search out diligently the truth of accusations. My splinter experience along with the sharing of many people here at the Greasespot is that TWI destroyed many, many lives on the basis of false accusations alone. TWI leadership was responsible to carry out the LOVE that was behind these plainly stated OT commandments. Instead they appear; and quite convincingly IMO; as a bunch of copped out, puffed up, terds that have not, nor ever have yet faced the truth of the actions of Wierwille and his hand picked progeny.
TWI leadership and others think that the internet is an bad place to diligently seek out the truth of these things. I think that it is a good place!
Personally, I'd prefer face to face but with all the "How to make friends and influence (er, I mean manipulate) people" crapola masquerading as following Jesus Christ and TWI's army of lawyers always ready to intimidate TWI victims I am especially thankful for the Greasespot and any other places like it out there. period
So while I share in the sadness at the damage that false accusations can inflict on any person or organization, I also know first hand how puffed up and evil leadership can be the worst offenders in this category.
Dear Deciderator,
I find more than enough credibility here at the greasespot. there are many impartial sources that quote many of the things that TWI leadership has said and done, just look around some more is my advice to you. And I'm sure that many people that I've come to respect based on the content of their posts are more than capable of handling the issues at the Greasespot far, far better than those selfish liars that led TWI ever could.
And so I find the emotional sharings that accompany the realizations of these things to be just.
AS FOR LCM, GEER, ROSIE OR ANY OTHER LEADERSHIP THAT ARE ALIVE, LET THEM COME TO THE GREASESPOT AND DEFEND THEMSELVES. Chickensh!t bastards that I think they are I don't think that will happen, but I'm quite certain that Paw will not close that door Deciderator.
I value presumptive innocence, but TWI leadership has not valued it for a long, long time. Not unless they were trying to protect one of their own.
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JeffSjo
I've been thinking about a few thinks about this thread.
It's about someone who has been convicted of the crime and now must do the time. Who knows, maybe he will end up like the wrongdoer on the cross that was next to the Lord. That wise man knew that he was suffering justly for his crimes and that the Lord was innocent of wrongdoing. Then the Lord gave him that great promise. It has been one of my favorite records for a long time now.
As for those who have not yielded to the authorities for their crimes and think that the Lord will praise them, what fools they are!
With all ther stories about TWI leadership ruining lives by folks here at the Greasespot because of stupid, unfounded, and false accusation that I've heard I think that we would understand how ugly false accusations can be. It seems evident that anyone who thinks that they can tell us about false accusations is a little like trying to sing to the choir when they can't even carry a tune.
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Deciderator
Making it worse is those who object to these things have chosen to practice the very behavior the deplore in others.
Of course!
That way you can practice what you condemn, and get around the requirement to confront someone you have an issue with in person, privately.
The impulse to hold kangaroo courts when there is no authority to enforce the standards of fairness this country was built upon is a strong one, not easily resisted, especially with the emotional aspect of the charges exciting those with pitchforks, torches and cudgels.
I have indeed looked around.
This is not the first time I have seen people aroused to the end they abandon principles of justice.
I doubt any of them would want to have the same applied to them, to be tried, convicted, stalked and denounced without having a chance to defend themselves.
Yes, I have indeed looked around.
I have seen the appeals for Mr. Martindale and others to post here, and usually the invitation is from someone busy sharpening a great big carving knife and wiping the slobber of anticipation from the corner of their mouth with their sleeve.
The charges made are serious ones and I have not denied any of them nor have I said much, if anything in defense of those accused, other than to relay my own experience.
What I have done, is point out that proceedoing as a lynch mob is not the way to go.
Serious charges need to be dealt with seriously and dispassionately.
Serious, felonious crimes have been alleged, and the place to deal with them is the court system of the United States.
Anyone accused is entitled to be dealt with justly, and that means the opportunity to cross examine witnesses and evidence, the right to present their own evidence, to offer explanations or exculpatory evidence, to call their own witnesses, to have a presumption of innocence, and to have the right to appeal, just to name a few.
Let's say they took you up on this one.
Given your outburst, above, do you think you could be considered to serve on a jury and to give a fai and just verdict, reaching a conclusion only after all the evidence was presented?
How would you like to have someone talking like that about you, before the trial, serving on a jury where you were charged with felony counts that could put you in jail for the rest of your life?
I can help you get past this one.
Just remember a lesson a lot of us received as children.
It's ok you didn't, but it's easy to remember and you'll find the following lesson will serve you well in the future:
JUST BECAUSE LITTLE JOHNNY DOWN THE STREET JUMPS OFF THE ROOF, IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO JUMP OFF THE ROOF, TOO!
In other words, using someone else's bad behavior to justify your mimicking that bad behavior is not the way to go...
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WhiteDove
And that is the very thing that makes our rights so valuable, there is no "but" in them, they are not earned or doled out based on if someone thinks another deserves them
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brideofjc
YES, INDEED IT DOES! Take for instance if a cop breaks the law by raping a woman, his fellow cops will cover up his dirty deed. Or the higher authorities will put out the word that nothing is to be done because they don't want the police force to look bad....especially in an election year.
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JeffSjo
When Twi leadership proclaimed sexual abuse victims to be "possessed" because they were starting to show signs of coming out from under their "spell" and then isolated them and destroyed their life they actually followed up their evil behavior with more. LIVES were destroyed by wicked, bloody hands.
When TWI victims despaired to the point of suicide TWI leadership had bloody hands.
When TWI leadership kicked men like Ralph Dubovsky out because he had the courage to say,"Dr. was wrong" to LCM leadership just continued their bloody rampage in peoples' lives.
When TWI leadership would rather see people suffer than change and supply then necessary remedies, they are at fault.
IF TWI LEADERSHIP AND YOU TWO THINK THAT THE GREASESPOT IS TOO ROUGH FOR THESE FOLKS THAT YOU TWO FIGHT FOR, JUST WAIT UNTIL THE LORD SEES THEM UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL LIKE; THEY HAVE BLOODY HANDS. In contrast, the apostle Paul did not.
THEY CAN PAY THE PIPER NOW, OR THEY CAN PAY LATER, it's their choice.
Still, you two have some ability with words, IMO it's just your perspective and the substance of your points that seem lacking.
(added in editing)
Hi Bride, non of this post is directed at you FYI.
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JeffSjo
Hey Greasespotters! (supply your own sarcasm as you read))
Let's all just ignore the ones who were actually called possessed, Twi leadership did it to isolate them and they are/were the "spiritual authority." After all, their experiences were mere allegations, and the counter point that in reality exersized control and authority over them, well it's all over now..... they should just shut up and get over it.
Nevermind that this thread is about a man that was ACTUALLY CONVICTED of child abuse, and that he had a history of such things in TWI fellowships. I think that if I read TWI leadership right, from their perspective it only proves that he must not have been SPIRITUAL enough in his abuse, after all, HE GOT CAUGHT!
Never mind that in order for TWI leadership to continue to be successful in NOT HAVING TO ANSWER TO THE AUTHORITIES they've employed a slew of lawyers and used every resource at their disposal. They've had yes-men for decades who were in varying degrees either corrupted or cowed into helping them pull it off.
Personally, if I heard of ANYONE WHO WAS SORRY FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND NOT ONLY OWNED UP TO THEM I'd give them every possible benefit of the doubt. For instance, I've heard reports that the ex- Mrs. John Lynn has been sorry and tried to help former victims. IMO she must be quite a woman for facing these things like that.
But for you guys who try to hide TWI actions behind innapropriately applied legal principles OUTSIDE OF THE COURT ROOM, I do not feel the same way about you as I do people like the heroic ex-Mrs. John Lynn.
You see, I'm as certain as I can be in my opinions based on numerous testimonials and my own recolection. And UNLIKE TWI LEADERSHIP, I have no direct authority over anybody to destroy them like leadership has done to many, many people. Me and the Greasespotters bear no resemblence to these bastards at all. And to you few that are comparing our actions to their's, TTTHHHPPP!!!
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chockfull
And on the Internet, people can tell their stories and be judged by the merit of the story as opposed to the court system which is expensive.
If the abuser in the story feels slandered, then they can go to the court system for remedy, and enter discovery evidence, and present facts, and a judge or jury can render a verdict. At which time they could declare not guilt or innocence as those are criminal law terms not civil, but the successful outcome of a civil verdict and state the damages.
Isn't it great how that works?
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potato
yes, it's fabulous that they have the legal right to take their "alleged" accusers to court! what a novel idea. wonder why they don't? they have the money to buy legal representation, unlike the people who they used and hurt.
we know who paid the legal costs for LCM's crimes. I didn't have money to bring a suit before the statute of limitations ran out on me, and with no recordkeeping and closed doors, all witnesses in my case would have committed perjury lest the ministry be blamed.
facts of life.
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