Re:"Words seem to fail me now to describe the anger I now feel at this false twisted doctrine that these folks hold by twisting the scriptures to their own purposes."
Hey man.. get a grip on your life, dude. Maybe go talk to a counselor. I used to be a Baptist, too, but I'm not obsessing over that fact in my past. Yeah. TWI was a bad experience for a lot of us.. and even worse for the ladies that got sexually abused but you sound like you've got some real anger management problems, IMO.
And Donny Fugit DID indeed pass away, several years ago now.
And, on an extended note, what do you expect from religion?
There's always somebody condemning somebody to hell, excommunicating, disemboweling, torturing, or otherwise making life miserable for those who don't agree with their particular brand of superstition. I'm sorry to say, I think it's just human nature.
To look to religion - or "spiritual matters" if you prefer - for some sort of comfort in life is bound to fail eventually, IMNSHO. Sooner or later reality becomes only too evident...
Jeff - as George has noted, Donnie F has died, several years ago. Before his time, I'd say, relatively young, in his 50's I believe. He's missed by many, and is remembered well by myself and many others, no doubt.
It's normative for the Way to take this perspective, defining "life" by a few limited factors - adherence to their own codes and regulations, beliefs and of course current involvement in their organization. Fall out of favor with them and you're "dead" by their standards. It's not surprising that some splinter groups would have similar attitudes, IMO, again as George stated, religion (by definition I think) doesn't exist in a vacuum.
That you, Donnie or anyone might be "dead" to such a group says a lot about the group, as clearly Donnie is but you aren't. So I think you have to consider the source, as it sounds like you have.
"Dead" can also be used as a euphimism for "defenseless". Look at the "greasespot by midnight" slogan. Used that way it's diminutive, reducing the value of someone to nil. Not much positive or uplifting about that.
A person's worth can be evaluated by many standards - the most basic and obvious one is simply being alive, a living breathing soul that expects to greet the new day with mind and body intact. That alone is a miracle worth celebrating. You - non repeatable and unique, the only one of you that has ever been or will ever be - how can anyone not see the miracle in that?
Low appreciation indicates lack of vision.
Glad to see you're present and accounted for. :)
Wanted to add a question - you've referred to a "splinter group" and it's leader. What group is this? I'm really curious.
I understand where you're coming from. Right now I'm dealing with my own anger issues over some crap that got dumped on me in a splinter group because leadership felt they should be controlling things. It's good that you can vent here instead of keeping it all bottled up inside. There are times when I want to express my anger with a left hook at certain people who I think need some sense knocked in their head. We're supposed to be Christians now, not acting like we're still cult members. Weirwille and TWI are dead, people should quit dragging the rotting corpse of their bad practices around.
Re:"Words seem to fail me now to describe the anger I now feel at this false twisted doctrine that these folks hold by twisting the scriptures to their own purposes."
Hey man.. get a grip on your life, dude. Maybe go talk to a counselor. I used to be a Baptist, too, but I'm not obsessing over that fact in my past. Yeah. TWI was a bad experience for a lot of us.. and even worse for the ladies that got sexually abused but you sound like you've got some real anger management problems, IMO.
Actually, I think I manage my anger issues o.k., but denying that I feel anger and stuffing those feelings would be worse IMO. Especially if sharing the feelings that I have can help others relate and possibly let others know that they aren't the only ones.
My splinter leader felt anger and was even cruel to animals, but presented himself in such a manner that he was thought of as a man's man within the group even though I made it clear that I wasn't impressed with my his story about kicking a puppy who piddled in his house across the room once. At another time, while leading a group of sheep he broke his staff over the head of an unruly animal, because it tried to walk ahead of him while he was attempting to lead them. Even my wife was caught up in admiration for this behavior. I was never out of control in sharing with my wife that I was angry with certain things they did, and I was portrayed as the one who was out of control with my anger.
As far as "getting a grip" goes, I'm in my 40's and I've been forced to pretty much start over from scratch. But I shared that with my very first post in the new members section last November. "Getting a grip" is still a work in progress for me.
Dear George Aar,
What do I expect from religion?
When I got involved with TWI in the eighties I expected to get involved with a ministry where the folks helped and loved one another, and kept biblical integrity. Even though many individuals I knew didn't let me down in this, IMO in TWI the creeps and the pervs ended up running the show and it pretty much went to hell-in-a-handbasket.
In spite of what I went through, I still have faith. I do respect you for saying many of the things that you say here at the Greasespot George. But we definitely have different world views.
Thank you for filling me in about Donny Fugit too.
Dear Socks,
Thanks for the appreciation. :)
I just had to take my best shot at this TWI practice of diminishing the value of anyone who doesn't go with the flow. Considering someone to be dead IMO is carrying this idea to the extreme. Placing a once and for all excommunication if you will on an individual who leadership believes is beyond their control.
I believe that Christ himself will someday cause everyone to answer for their actions according to the scriptures. For those in leadership who unjustly ruined others lives and knew that what they were doing was unjust, I believe that they will pay a steep price.
I'll send you a Graesspot E-mail in answer to your last question Socks.
((((RAINBOWSGIRL))))
Dear TOMMYZ,
I know how you feel about dealing with non-sensical leadership. A long time ago I realized that if they wouldn't hear the scriptures that their was nothing that I could do. As a matter of fact, I'm certain that if I ever responded to the extreme and unhinged provocations that they threw in my face with any kind of outburst that it would have given them the excuse that they were looking for to justify their actions in people's eyes.
I realized that one of my splinter group leader's thugs was going for that once when he got in my face once, while in front of my wife, and told me to F___ recently deceased Grandmother at least ten or fifteen times in an angry outburst. Even as he was ranting at me I knew that if I made any type of physical reprisal that my marriage and my time in the group would be over and they would simply say that I was possessed and that I attacked a valuable leader within the group.
But in the course of my divorce it was one of the things that happened that made it very easy to convince the courts that it was a good thing to keep my son away from them. My ex gave me the "thousand daggers of death look" as she was driving by me after that session, let me tell you. But my boy can't be with them, so I won that much anyway.
I'm with you 100% TOMMYZ on wanting to do good now.
You sound very normal and intelligent to me. I'd like to kick that creep who kicked the dog across the room, too, if I did such things, but I don't, but still....what a jerk.
I keep meaning to ask, but would you mind revealing which splinter group you were with? In my opinion, they're all bad news. PM me if you wish, and if not, that's fine too.
And I'm with WB...I think the dog had the right idea.
I'm glad you're out and they can't get their hooks in your son.
I'm already out of time today, so this will be brief. THANK YOU BOTH!
I'm not going to reveal any names or places over the net in public because as twisted as my splinter leader is I've already seen how he can thrive on even false indications of his notoriety that he can use to further his control over that group. But without names there is a better chance of this actually doing somebody some good instead of him making it work in his favor.
Thank you both again. I'lll see if I can share more tomorrow.
Keeping on track with this thread I only have one way to approach this topic on my mind right now.
The whole spiritual death thing is only one tool in a faulty TWI arsenal that has served to attempt to silence opposition and bring the efforts of good people to nothing.
It stands to reason that in my case, since my splinter leader is both insane and hypocritical that it is impossible for him to apply scripture to both of us with anything approaching fairness. His actions are worse than mine, but in his own mind he's special and deserves all the glory as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. But I submit that in many instances his twisted behavior is worthy of the destruction that he visited on my life. I'll wait for the Lord to do it to him all by himself, without any destructive actions on my part to the best of my ability.
If I can help anyone in the mean time by sharing something then I am content. Revealing his name in public will only serve his ends by allowing him to get his pet toadies and thugs all worked up over the so-called persecution that they are facing. Heck, about two months after 9-11 he shared that we would be attacked by the locals or by government forces, and if we wanted to stand with him we had better be prepared to die! Because of his paranoid ravings people were even more behind him than without the prospect of persecution. I don't want to make it worse for folks who I still am very concerned about by allowing him to point out that I am PUBLICALLY impugning him.
Privately TONTO, I'll send you a Greasespot E-mail.
I've got my boy this weekend and his patience is running out. Bye for now folks, and God Bless.
Jeff, why are you still there?... in that splinter (ouch, thorn in the flesh) group? Free yourself, brother. Please pass go and move on. Even if you have to stay home and sup with yourself and the Lord. Oh, my gosh, He will bring, take, lead you or others to you for fellowship. Have you considered that this fellowship you are involved in is akin to evil. Heck, I went to a Wiccan meeting one time and it was so loving and caring that I would opt for that over your fellowship.
What would you lose if you left that splinter group? You gain what if stay there?
Thank you for the concern, you seem very kind to me.
As part of the judgment that my splinter group dished out at me they kicked me out already about 4 1/2 years ago. After many years of trying to help them keep away from the insanity that lives in the heart of the leader they moved my wife and child out of my house behind my back and kicked me out of the fellowship. Most of the time since I've been floundering on many levels, but my mostly lonely floundering time was still immensely better that the day after day mind games that they deliberately put me through over the course of a few years.
Aside from being considered spiritually dead I've faced many obstacles while I was there. There were accusations that I was never even confronted with, but every time they seemed about ready to come to the surface I shoved them back down their throats, so-to-speak. I've been called virtually every bad biblical name that I can think of too.
My first post in the "new members" section I shared that I was looking for a new start. It didn't take very long for me to perceive things going on at the Greasespot that seemed very similar to the beat down I faced while a member of this certain splinter group.
All-in-all, I think my time at the Greasespot has been well spent. I feel that I have a much better handle on what went wrong, and why it went wrong than ever before. And I feel much better about dealing with daily life now that several things about TWI and my splinter group seem to be resolved. But once again, who knows where tomorrow may lead?
It's a real "turn the cheek" opportunity. It's very good that your son is banned from seeing this group and learning such dreadful behavior. You have a great opportunity to show him what being a man is and exercising self-control.
He he, I got myself M&A'd by a wannabe splinter group. It was too funny. I couldn't believe how pathetic the leader was. He had a crony there as a witness while he showed off being the big man. Ha ha, everyone else is laughing at him too, now. And nobody but him marks or avoids me.
This one and the one that went gunning for you are no better than schoolyard bullies. But far more pathetic.
Actually, what I've done here at the Greasespot concerning this guy, how I've shared and sought to help folks by sharing without giving him the lever of being to say that I'm publically outing him has helped me to chuckle about it to myself at least, more than once.
I think that if I had the chance I might laugh in their face, but they've hurt many people too! There could be tears too, depending who I'm facing.
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Sudo
JeffSjo,
Re:"Words seem to fail me now to describe the anger I now feel at this false twisted doctrine that these folks hold by twisting the scriptures to their own purposes."
Hey man.. get a grip on your life, dude. Maybe go talk to a counselor. I used to be a Baptist, too, but I'm not obsessing over that fact in my past. Yeah. TWI was a bad experience for a lot of us.. and even worse for the ladies that got sexually abused but you sound like you've got some real anger management problems, IMO.
sudo
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George Aar
And Donny Fugit DID indeed pass away, several years ago now.
And, on an extended note, what do you expect from religion?
There's always somebody condemning somebody to hell, excommunicating, disemboweling, torturing, or otherwise making life miserable for those who don't agree with their particular brand of superstition. I'm sorry to say, I think it's just human nature.
To look to religion - or "spiritual matters" if you prefer - for some sort of comfort in life is bound to fail eventually, IMNSHO. Sooner or later reality becomes only too evident...
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socks
Jeff - as George has noted, Donnie F has died, several years ago. Before his time, I'd say, relatively young, in his 50's I believe. He's missed by many, and is remembered well by myself and many others, no doubt.
It's normative for the Way to take this perspective, defining "life" by a few limited factors - adherence to their own codes and regulations, beliefs and of course current involvement in their organization. Fall out of favor with them and you're "dead" by their standards. It's not surprising that some splinter groups would have similar attitudes, IMO, again as George stated, religion (by definition I think) doesn't exist in a vacuum.
That you, Donnie or anyone might be "dead" to such a group says a lot about the group, as clearly Donnie is but you aren't. So I think you have to consider the source, as it sounds like you have.
"Dead" can also be used as a euphimism for "defenseless". Look at the "greasespot by midnight" slogan. Used that way it's diminutive, reducing the value of someone to nil. Not much positive or uplifting about that.
A person's worth can be evaluated by many standards - the most basic and obvious one is simply being alive, a living breathing soul that expects to greet the new day with mind and body intact. That alone is a miracle worth celebrating. You - non repeatable and unique, the only one of you that has ever been or will ever be - how can anyone not see the miracle in that?
Low appreciation indicates lack of vision.
Glad to see you're present and accounted for. :)
Wanted to add a question - you've referred to a "splinter group" and it's leader. What group is this? I'm really curious.
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RainbowsGirl
((((Jeff)))))
Impugning and maligning Your good name and setting you up to further their gain of power, and control of
the splinter group members is purely evil. Disguised by teaching and condoning to all, that isolation and
banishment are acceptable methods; instead of a very cruel and ruthless forms of torture and punishment that
they in fact are.
They worse than figurative killed You; They promote evil as a resourceful means to obtain a goal; making
it appear normal, just and acceptable; further blinding and entrapping their members. To a great degree, I feel
that they the members should be able to see through at least some of these types of tactics, but GOD only
knows the whys and the why nots!!! I truly don't mean this as a judgement on them. I am hoping that they
wake up soon!!!
I am sorry for the losses You have suffered Jeff so bravely and glad that You are here to help and to heal!!! I
will be praying for You and the other members of this group and all cults!!!
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TOMMYZ
Jeff,
I understand where you're coming from. Right now I'm dealing with my own anger issues over some crap that got dumped on me in a splinter group because leadership felt they should be controlling things. It's good that you can vent here instead of keeping it all bottled up inside. There are times when I want to express my anger with a left hook at certain people who I think need some sense knocked in their head. We're supposed to be Christians now, not acting like we're still cult members. Weirwille and TWI are dead, people should quit dragging the rotting corpse of their bad practices around.
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excathedra
i say let jeff be and let him talk if he wants to
no one's experience or grip is the same, dude
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excathedra
i just want to say i hear you jeff and tommy
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JeffSjo
Dear Sudo,
Actually, I think I manage my anger issues o.k., but denying that I feel anger and stuffing those feelings would be worse IMO. Especially if sharing the feelings that I have can help others relate and possibly let others know that they aren't the only ones.
My splinter leader felt anger and was even cruel to animals, but presented himself in such a manner that he was thought of as a man's man within the group even though I made it clear that I wasn't impressed with my his story about kicking a puppy who piddled in his house across the room once. At another time, while leading a group of sheep he broke his staff over the head of an unruly animal, because it tried to walk ahead of him while he was attempting to lead them. Even my wife was caught up in admiration for this behavior. I was never out of control in sharing with my wife that I was angry with certain things they did, and I was portrayed as the one who was out of control with my anger.
As far as "getting a grip" goes, I'm in my 40's and I've been forced to pretty much start over from scratch. But I shared that with my very first post in the new members section last November. "Getting a grip" is still a work in progress for me.
Dear George Aar,
What do I expect from religion?
When I got involved with TWI in the eighties I expected to get involved with a ministry where the folks helped and loved one another, and kept biblical integrity. Even though many individuals I knew didn't let me down in this, IMO in TWI the creeps and the pervs ended up running the show and it pretty much went to hell-in-a-handbasket.
In spite of what I went through, I still have faith. I do respect you for saying many of the things that you say here at the Greasespot George. But we definitely have different world views.
Thank you for filling me in about Donny Fugit too.
Dear Socks,
Thanks for the appreciation. :)
I just had to take my best shot at this TWI practice of diminishing the value of anyone who doesn't go with the flow. Considering someone to be dead IMO is carrying this idea to the extreme. Placing a once and for all excommunication if you will on an individual who leadership believes is beyond their control.
I believe that Christ himself will someday cause everyone to answer for their actions according to the scriptures. For those in leadership who unjustly ruined others lives and knew that what they were doing was unjust, I believe that they will pay a steep price.
I'll send you a Graesspot E-mail in answer to your last question Socks.
((((RAINBOWSGIRL))))
Dear TOMMYZ,
I know how you feel about dealing with non-sensical leadership. A long time ago I realized that if they wouldn't hear the scriptures that their was nothing that I could do. As a matter of fact, I'm certain that if I ever responded to the extreme and unhinged provocations that they threw in my face with any kind of outburst that it would have given them the excuse that they were looking for to justify their actions in people's eyes.
I realized that one of my splinter group leader's thugs was going for that once when he got in my face once, while in front of my wife, and told me to F___ recently deceased Grandmother at least ten or fifteen times in an angry outburst. Even as he was ranting at me I knew that if I made any type of physical reprisal that my marriage and my time in the group would be over and they would simply say that I was possessed and that I attacked a valuable leader within the group.
But in the course of my divorce it was one of the things that happened that made it very easy to convince the courts that it was a good thing to keep my son away from them. My ex gave me the "thousand daggers of death look" as she was driving by me after that session, let me tell you. But my boy can't be with them, so I won that much anyway.
I'm with you 100% TOMMYZ on wanting to do good now.
((((Excathedra))))
(edited for spelling)
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waterbuffalo
You sound very normal and intelligent to me. I'd like to kick that creep who kicked the dog across the room, too, if I did such things, but I don't, but still....what a jerk.
The dog seems to have had it right.
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tonto
Hi Jeff,
I keep meaning to ask, but would you mind revealing which splinter group you were with? In my opinion, they're all bad news. PM me if you wish, and if not, that's fine too.
And I'm with WB...I think the dog had the right idea.
I'm glad you're out and they can't get their hooks in your son.
All the best to you,
tonto
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JeffSjo
Dear Waterbuffalo and Tonto,
I'm already out of time today, so this will be brief. THANK YOU BOTH!
I'm not going to reveal any names or places over the net in public because as twisted as my splinter leader is I've already seen how he can thrive on even false indications of his notoriety that he can use to further his control over that group. But without names there is a better chance of this actually doing somebody some good instead of him making it work in his favor.
Thank you both again. I'lll see if I can share more tomorrow.
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JeffSjo
Keeping on track with this thread I only have one way to approach this topic on my mind right now.
The whole spiritual death thing is only one tool in a faulty TWI arsenal that has served to attempt to silence opposition and bring the efforts of good people to nothing.
It stands to reason that in my case, since my splinter leader is both insane and hypocritical that it is impossible for him to apply scripture to both of us with anything approaching fairness. His actions are worse than mine, but in his own mind he's special and deserves all the glory as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. But I submit that in many instances his twisted behavior is worthy of the destruction that he visited on my life. I'll wait for the Lord to do it to him all by himself, without any destructive actions on my part to the best of my ability.
If I can help anyone in the mean time by sharing something then I am content. Revealing his name in public will only serve his ends by allowing him to get his pet toadies and thugs all worked up over the so-called persecution that they are facing. Heck, about two months after 9-11 he shared that we would be attacked by the locals or by government forces, and if we wanted to stand with him we had better be prepared to die! Because of his paranoid ravings people were even more behind him than without the prospect of persecution. I don't want to make it worse for folks who I still am very concerned about by allowing him to point out that I am PUBLICALLY impugning him.
Privately TONTO, I'll send you a Greasespot E-mail.
I've got my boy this weekend and his patience is running out. Bye for now folks, and God Bless.
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kimberly
Jeff, why are you still there?... in that splinter (ouch, thorn in the flesh) group? Free yourself, brother. Please pass go and move on. Even if you have to stay home and sup with yourself and the Lord. Oh, my gosh, He will bring, take, lead you or others to you for fellowship. Have you considered that this fellowship you are involved in is akin to evil. Heck, I went to a Wiccan meeting one time and it was so loving and caring that I would opt for that over your fellowship.
What would you lose if you left that splinter group? You gain what if stay there?
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JeffSjo
(((KIMBERLY))),
Thank you for the concern, you seem very kind to me.
As part of the judgment that my splinter group dished out at me they kicked me out already about 4 1/2 years ago. After many years of trying to help them keep away from the insanity that lives in the heart of the leader they moved my wife and child out of my house behind my back and kicked me out of the fellowship. Most of the time since I've been floundering on many levels, but my mostly lonely floundering time was still immensely better that the day after day mind games that they deliberately put me through over the course of a few years.
Aside from being considered spiritually dead I've faced many obstacles while I was there. There were accusations that I was never even confronted with, but every time they seemed about ready to come to the surface I shoved them back down their throats, so-to-speak. I've been called virtually every bad biblical name that I can think of too.
My first post in the "new members" section I shared that I was looking for a new start. It didn't take very long for me to perceive things going on at the Greasespot that seemed very similar to the beat down I faced while a member of this certain splinter group.
All-in-all, I think my time at the Greasespot has been well spent. I feel that I have a much better handle on what went wrong, and why it went wrong than ever before. And I feel much better about dealing with daily life now that several things about TWI and my splinter group seem to be resolved. But once again, who knows where tomorrow may lead?
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Twinky
Laugh in their faces, Jeff.
It's a real "turn the cheek" opportunity. It's very good that your son is banned from seeing this group and learning such dreadful behavior. You have a great opportunity to show him what being a man is and exercising self-control.
He he, I got myself M&A'd by a wannabe splinter group. It was too funny. I couldn't believe how pathetic the leader was. He had a crony there as a witness while he showed off being the big man. Ha ha, everyone else is laughing at him too, now. And nobody but him marks or avoids me.
This one and the one that went gunning for you are no better than schoolyard bullies. But far more pathetic.
Live life to the full! Here, have a drink on me -
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JeffSjo
Thank you Twinky!
Actually, what I've done here at the Greasespot concerning this guy, how I've shared and sought to help folks by sharing without giving him the lever of being to say that I'm publically outing him has helped me to chuckle about it to myself at least, more than once.
I think that if I had the chance I might laugh in their face, but they've hurt many people too! There could be tears too, depending who I'm facing.
Bye for now.
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