Interesting to see a professional stick his head in here and look around...I'm sure there are many folks here who can use your service...Have you met ****** yet?....
Interesting to see a professional stick his head in here and look around...I'm sure there are many folks here who can use your service...Have you met ****** yet?....
Please do not engage in insulting behavior, personal attacks, and inflammatory language. This includes:
calling fellow posters names
accusing them of "needing a therapist/shrink/meds"
Don't believe I read this in the rules on the front page either, (at least your last line).
David, it's the second bulleted item in the "Revised Rules" post in the Open forum. I, for one, am glad to see that as part of the rules. It's always bugged me when people make cracks about others' mental health.
David, it's the second bulleted item in the "Revised Rules" post in the Open forum. I, for one, am glad to see that as part of the rules. It's always bugged me when people make cracks about others' mental health.
Who said anything about another poster's mental health?
The state of one's mental health has nothing to do with whether or not you were or are in a cult.
John M Knapp certainly didn't imply or state mental health deficiencies in his first post:
Hi, everybody! :)
I am a licensed psychotherapist who has worked with over 2,000 current and former cult members since 1995. I've worked specifically with ex-TWI members. I joined GSC this July -- lurking and posting from time to time.
Starting Wednesday evening, October 1st I will be holding an online cult support group at public-talk.com. (I am in the US Eastern Time zone.) It will meet once a week.
I designed the group for people who left their group, but still face challenges functioning in life. Difficulties might include: career/education, relationships, finances, health, depression, grief, shame, re-establishing spirituality -- pretty much any challenge caused by your time in your cult. (You might be interested in reading a list of post-cult symptoms at http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cultsymptoms.html .)
Some benefits people report from cult support groups:
* Great chance to share experience in a safe, moderated space -- ask questions and get answers!
* Confidential, safe, and secure
* Support from people who experienced what you did -- and don't think you're crazy!
* Work with a therapist who understands -- I spent 20+ years in my own cult
* A place to share and learn solutions that have worked for others
* Inexpensive access to professional therapeutic help (as little as $10/session)
* For many people, group may be faster, more powerful than individual counseling -- and less scary!
* Downloaded transcripts let you re-read and consider insights at your own leisure
* Learn crucial info on cult recovery
The group is open to anyone who is recovering from cult abuse by any group. The group is limited to 10 members, first-come, first-served -- you might want to make your reservation soon.
To learn more -- or if you have any questions at all -- please write me at jmknapp53@gmail.com.
Look forward to recovering with you! :D
J.
About Me:
I am a 23+ year former member of Transcendental Meditation in recovery from cults for 13+ years.
I've been a cult activist since 1995 and have worked with over 2,000 current and former members of eastern meditation groups, new age groups, multi-level marketing groups, christian/bible-based groups, and many, many more. I have specifically worked with a number of former TWI members.
I became a mental health professional in 2005 as a licensed psychotherapist (LMSW). You can read more about my practice at http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/ .
These days almost 2/3 of my work is with bible-based groups. It just seems to be the need of the times.
When we start micromanaging thought - we start on a very slippery slope.
Or should the whole thread be removed because it's mere presence suggests that some here might want to participate?
I wish you the best, John…Years ago I was so ashamed of my former involvement with TWI. If I had come to your office, I probably would have sounded something like this – Uhm…okay…I have this friend who was in a really weird religious group….
Who said anything about another poster's mental health?
The state of one's mental health has nothing to do with whether or not you were or are in a cult.
John M Knapp certainly didn't imply or state mental health deficiencies in his first post:
Your right he did not and no one said he did, however another poster did name someone by name which I felt was unfair to that person according to the new rules which is why I posted the simple reminder for them. I'd guess one of the Mods removed the name because the poster did not self police his post. It is also a slippery slope when we start deciding and naming who does or does not need services.
Interesting to see a professional stick his head in here and look around...I'm sure there are many folks here who can use your service...Have you met ****** yet?....
Hmmm, who is ******? Is this an inside joke I need to learn? :)
It was a detrimental reference to another poster...whom I even know whom it referred too and why it was made!
Linda Z and WhiteDove and The Mods, Thank You for standing up and asking for fairness and detecting underlying digs and cuts!!!
Those tactics remind me of TWI's tactics and methods...sadly a form of verbal abuse and victimization usually followed by a nice trip to isolation by Marking and avoiding; because they only wanted to be afforded the same opportunity to stand up for what they believe!!!!
I wish you the best, John…Years ago I was so ashamed of my former involvement with TWI. If I had come to your office, I probably would have sounded something like this – Uhm…okay…I have this friend who was in a really weird religious group….
Hi, T-Bone,
I can't tell you how many of my future clients start out with some variation of "I have this friend...." :)
I don't think of most of most of my clients as "mentally ill." I think they are having normal, natural, human responses to grief, betrayal, or reactions to the extraordinary stress we experienced in our cults.
Most people leaving a cult do NOT need professional help. They adjust to a comfortable, productive, happy life on their own or through support groups like this or self-help reading in books or on the web.
But a significant minority aren't able to make that transition smoothly and may have significant challenges functioning for months, years, even decades after. (You may be interested in a list of post-cult symptoms I've found my clients suffer from at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultsymptoms.html .)
I definitely do NOT hold to the belief that EVERYONE leaving a cult needs professional help. Quite the opposite! I've found that cult veterans exhibit extensive strengths that they take away from their cult experience: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultstrengths.html .
But I do make my services available for people who feel they have been working at recovery for some time, but continue to have challenges that they don't seem to be making progress on.
Thanks, T-Bone, for taking the time to reply -- and giving me a chance to talk a little more!
John,
You didn't miss a joke: there was an actual name there before, and one of the moderators removed it.
You related to another poster who used the same last name here?
You mean another "Knapp"? Not to my knowledge. Is he/she a good guy? I'd like to meet people here.
From what I see/read, you have a wonderful perspective of someone who has been through it, and now can see behind him with understanding. Add your professional training and you are armed and primed to help folks like us. Thank you for making yourself known here!
Don't mind the in-house bickering. It's just the way we get along. Although it does make me curious if folks from other cults have the same varying degrees of holding on to past beliefs that we have here... ?
I can't tell you how many of my future clients start out with some variation of "I have this friend...." :)
I don't think of most of most of my clients as "mentally ill." I think they are having normal, natural, human responses to grief, betrayal, or reactions to the extraordinary stress we experienced in our cults.
Most people leaving a cult do NOT need professional help. They adjust to a comfortable, productive, happy life on their own or through support groups like this or self-help reading in books or on the web.
But a significant minority aren't able to make that transition smoothly and may have significant challenges functioning for months, years, even decades after. (You may be interested in a list of post-cult symptoms I've found my clients suffer from at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultsymptoms.html .)
I definitely do NOT hold to the belief that EVERYONE leaving a cult needs professional help. Quite the opposite! I've found that cult veterans exhibit extensive strengths that they take away from their cult experience: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultstrengths.html .
But I do make my services available for people who feel they have been working at recovery for some time, but continue to have challenges that they don't seem to be making progress on.
Thanks, T-Bone, for taking the time to reply -- and giving me a chance to talk a little more!
You mean another "Knapp"? Not to my knowledge. Is he/she a good guy? I'd like to meet people here.
You've been posting some great stuff, John ! Keep it up, brother – I really liked that one link you gave listing the strengths of a cult veteran…I was trying to be funny in my I have a friend comment but there's a lot behind that post. It's been a long and complicated road to where I am today...
...unraveling my old mindset and dealing with depression [which I've had before going into TWI]…and besides the grace of God, I've had a whole lot of help from my wife Tonto, professional therapists and of course Grease Spot…all I've got to say is - where were you when I needed you in 1986 after I left TWI? Ok – just kiddin' – I'm glad you're here and it means a lot to me that you've had a cult experience – I'm sure that adds such depth, compassion & empathy to your service.
Oh yeah, excuse my manners - a hearty welcome to you, John ! I look forward to more of your input at Grease Spot.
Don't mind the in-house bickering. It's just the way we get along. Although it does make me curious if folks from other cults have the same varying degrees of holding on to past beliefs that we have here... ?
Hi, THW,
Thanks for the warm welcome (and also thanks to everyone else who has been encouraging)!
Re: the "bickering." Every cult and every individual is different. And I've found every self-help forum is different too.
For those that allow both current and former members to post, there's almost always elements of anger, hostility, and distrust. This makes sense: The two world views are so different there's bound to be friction. And nearly every group I've worked with has taught black/white beliefs, such as members are better than everyone else, and outsiders are sinners, unsaved, even evil.
With that as a starting point, it's pretty hard t have respectful conversations.
More generally, I find that many former members DO hold onto old beliefs, both consciously and unconsciously. I wrote an essay about Secondary Narcissism, discussing my own struggles with at least one old belief I've had: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/2ndnarcissism.html .
Naturally, these beliefs affect feelings and actions in the present.
...unraveling my old mindset and dealing with depression [which I've had before going into TWI]…and besides the grace of God, I've had a whole lot of help from my wife Tonto, professional therapists and of course Grease Spot…all I've got to say is - where were you when I needed you in 1986 after I left TWI? Ok – just kiddin' – I'm glad you're here and it means a lot to me that you've had a cult experience – I'm sure that adds such depth, compassion & empathy to your service.
Thanks for the kind words!
I make no secret that my departure from my cult, Transcendental Meditation after 23+ years, was quite messy. I worked with two quite well-known exit counselors, entered psychotherapy, and took prescribed medications for anxiety and depression for quite some time.
I guess my feeling is get all the help you can and grab it where you can find it.
I still struggle 13 years after leaving my cult with some issues. But I'm pleased to say that I have a happy, productive, and comfortable life. There is hope for everyone!
I think of cult recovery as being much like recovery from traumatic grief. When a parent or loved dies, we're a mess at first, we may grieve seriously for a year or two, but in time we learn to balance good memories with our grief and gradually return to normal functioning.
But such grief fundamentally changes us for the rest our lives. We're not the same person after that we were before. Our lives may actually become richer, more intense, more urgent because we recognize our mortality.
It's similar with cult recovery. We will never be the person we were before we entered the cult. We are changed. But we are very likely to become richer, more compassionate human beings.
Thanks for the explanations about what I thought was an "inside joke."
I understand the reason for the rule about not questioning the mental health of another poster.
MH jargon has become a new class of swear words, unfortunately. Saying someone has "issues," is "bipolar," could use some "help," etc. are extremely loaded in today's culture. We may not feel free to call someone an "a-hole" in polite company, but people feel free to say "you need to see a shrink."
It's sad. Because of the lingering taboo in our culture over mental health issues and therapy, language that is meant to help and heal has become a new category of hate speech.
I don't think of most of most of my clients as "mentally ill." I think they are having normal, natural, human responses to grief, betrayal, or reactions to the extraordinary stress we experienced in our cults.
Most people leaving a cult do NOT need professional help. They adjust to a comfortable, productive, happy life on their own or through support groups like this or self-help reading in books or on the web.
But a significant minority aren't able to make that transition smoothly and may have significant challenges functioning for months, years, even decades after. (You may be interested in a list of post-cult symptoms I've found my clients suffer from at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultsymptoms.html .)
I definitely do NOT hold to the belief that EVERYONE leaving a cult needs professional help. Quite the opposite! I've found that cult veterans exhibit extensive strengths that they take away from their cult experience: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultstrengths.html .
But I do make my services available for people who feel they have been working at recovery for some time, but continue to have challenges that they don't seem to be making progress on.
You say: "my cult" (speaking of TM) which is presumably a sort of shorthand.
I can't think of TWI as being "my cult" but rather, "the cult that I was in." To call it "my" cult implies more ownership and buying-in than I care to acknowledge or be associated with now. But maybe that's just me.
You say: "my cult" (speaking of TM) which is presumably a sort of shorthand.
I can't think of TWI as being "my cult" but rather, "the cult that I was in." To call it "my" cult implies more ownership and buying-in than I care to acknowledge or be associated with now. But maybe that's just me.
Have fun and enjoy life!
Hi, Twinky,
You make a good point. I need to think about it some more. My first thought is I need to own the experience. I was a TM teacher and lectured to some thousands of people and provided services of various kinds to thousands more. (It was a really big group back in the 70s.)
Part of why I chose my profession is that I have a need to make some amends. I talked people into buying "courses" and other products. And I told lies that I was conscious were lies -- even if I thought at the time I was acting for a "greater good."
So in some sense, I think I may have "bought-in" more than you describe. Calling it "my cult" may be justified. Let me think about your point some more....
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excathedra
oh thank you johnknapp! it's nice to see you here again!!!!
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cheranne
well..thats a nice idea.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Thanks, ex and cheranne, for the encouragement!
Let me know if I can answer any questions or concerns.
J.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hi John...welcome to the greasespot cafe...
Interesting to see a professional stick his head in here and look around...I'm sure there are many folks here who can use your service...Have you met ****** yet?....
Edited by modbakerremoved personal attack
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WhiteDove
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dmiller
Somehow --- I don't think ******* would be interested. :)
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dmiller
Don't believe I read this in the rules on the front page either, (at least your last line).
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Linda Z
David, it's the second bulleted item in the "Revised Rules" post in the Open forum. I, for one, am glad to see that as part of the rules. It's always bugged me when people make cracks about others' mental health.
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doojable
Who said anything about another poster's mental health?
The state of one's mental health has nothing to do with whether or not you were or are in a cult.
John M Knapp certainly didn't imply or state mental health deficiencies in his first post:
When we start micromanaging thought - we start on a very slippery slope.
Or should the whole thread be removed because it's mere presence suggests that some here might want to participate?
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T-Bone
I wish you the best, John…Years ago I was so ashamed of my former involvement with TWI. If I had come to your office, I probably would have sounded something like this – Uhm…okay…I have this friend who was in a really weird religious group….
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WhiteDove
Your right he did not and no one said he did, however another poster did name someone by name which I felt was unfair to that person according to the new rules which is why I posted the simple reminder for them. I'd guess one of the Mods removed the name because the poster did not self police his post. It is also a slippery slope when we start deciding and naming who does or does not need services.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hmmm, who is ******? Is this an inside joke I need to learn? :)
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Raf
John,
You didn't miss a joke: there was an actual name there before, and one of the moderators removed it.
You related to another poster who used the same last name here?
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RainbowsGirl
It was a detrimental reference to another poster...whom I even know whom it referred too and why it was made!
Linda Z and WhiteDove and The Mods, Thank You for standing up and asking for fairness and detecting underlying digs and cuts!!!
Those tactics remind me of TWI's tactics and methods...sadly a form of verbal abuse and victimization usually followed by a nice trip to isolation by Marking and avoiding; because they only wanted to be afforded the same opportunity to stand up for what they believe!!!!
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, T-Bone,
I can't tell you how many of my future clients start out with some variation of "I have this friend...." :)
I don't think of most of most of my clients as "mentally ill." I think they are having normal, natural, human responses to grief, betrayal, or reactions to the extraordinary stress we experienced in our cults.
Most people leaving a cult do NOT need professional help. They adjust to a comfortable, productive, happy life on their own or through support groups like this or self-help reading in books or on the web.
But a significant minority aren't able to make that transition smoothly and may have significant challenges functioning for months, years, even decades after. (You may be interested in a list of post-cult symptoms I've found my clients suffer from at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultsymptoms.html .)
I definitely do NOT hold to the belief that EVERYONE leaving a cult needs professional help. Quite the opposite! I've found that cult veterans exhibit extensive strengths that they take away from their cult experience: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultstrengths.html .
But I do make my services available for people who feel they have been working at recovery for some time, but continue to have challenges that they don't seem to be making progress on.
Thanks, T-Bone, for taking the time to reply -- and giving me a chance to talk a little more!
You mean another "Knapp"? Not to my knowledge. Is he/she a good guy? I'd like to meet people here.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Oh yeah, the new rules!...I suppose I better go read them...
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TheHighWay
John,
Welcome to the 'spot!! And thank you being here.
From what I see/read, you have a wonderful perspective of someone who has been through it, and now can see behind him with understanding. Add your professional training and you are armed and primed to help folks like us. Thank you for making yourself known here!
Don't mind the in-house bickering. It's just the way we get along. Although it does make me curious if folks from other cults have the same varying degrees of holding on to past beliefs that we have here... ?
PS -- loved the cult-escapees' strengths list.
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T-Bone
You've been posting some great stuff, John ! Keep it up, brother – I really liked that one link you gave listing the strengths of a cult veteran…I was trying to be funny in my I have a friend comment but there's a lot behind that post. It's been a long and complicated road to where I am today...
...unraveling my old mindset and dealing with depression [which I've had before going into TWI]…and besides the grace of God, I've had a whole lot of help from my wife Tonto, professional therapists and of course Grease Spot…all I've got to say is - where were you when I needed you in 1986 after I left TWI?
Ok – just kiddin' – I'm glad you're here and it means a lot to me that you've had a cult experience – I'm sure that adds such depth, compassion & empathy to your service.
Oh yeah, excuse my manners - a hearty welcome to you, John ! I look forward to more of your input at Grease Spot.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, THW,
Thanks for the warm welcome (and also thanks to everyone else who has been encouraging)!
Re: the "bickering." Every cult and every individual is different. And I've found every self-help forum is different too.
For those that allow both current and former members to post, there's almost always elements of anger, hostility, and distrust. This makes sense: The two world views are so different there's bound to be friction. And nearly every group I've worked with has taught black/white beliefs, such as members are better than everyone else, and outsiders are sinners, unsaved, even evil.
With that as a starting point, it's pretty hard t have respectful conversations.
More generally, I find that many former members DO hold onto old beliefs, both consciously and unconsciously. I wrote an essay about Secondary Narcissism, discussing my own struggles with at least one old belief I've had: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/2ndnarcissism.html .
Naturally, these beliefs affect feelings and actions in the present.
Did that answer your question?
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John M Knapp LMSW
Thanks for the kind words!
I make no secret that my departure from my cult, Transcendental Meditation after 23+ years, was quite messy. I worked with two quite well-known exit counselors, entered psychotherapy, and took prescribed medications for anxiety and depression for quite some time.
I guess my feeling is get all the help you can and grab it where you can find it.
I still struggle 13 years after leaving my cult with some issues. But I'm pleased to say that I have a happy, productive, and comfortable life. There is hope for everyone!
I think of cult recovery as being much like recovery from traumatic grief. When a parent or loved dies, we're a mess at first, we may grieve seriously for a year or two, but in time we learn to balance good memories with our grief and gradually return to normal functioning.
But such grief fundamentally changes us for the rest our lives. We're not the same person after that we were before. Our lives may actually become richer, more intense, more urgent because we recognize our mortality.
It's similar with cult recovery. We will never be the person we were before we entered the cult. We are changed. But we are very likely to become richer, more compassionate human beings.
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John M Knapp LMSW
Thanks for the explanations about what I thought was an "inside joke."
I understand the reason for the rule about not questioning the mental health of another poster.
MH jargon has become a new class of swear words, unfortunately. Saying someone has "issues," is "bipolar," could use some "help," etc. are extremely loaded in today's culture. We may not feel free to call someone an "a-hole" in polite company, but people feel free to say "you need to see a shrink."
It's sad. Because of the lingering taboo in our culture over mental health issues and therapy, language that is meant to help and heal has become a new category of hate speech.
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doojable
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Twinky
Hi John, nice to see you back here again.
You say: "my cult" (speaking of TM) which is presumably a sort of shorthand.
I can't think of TWI as being "my cult" but rather, "the cult that I was in." To call it "my" cult implies more ownership and buying-in than I care to acknowledge or be associated with now. But maybe that's just me.
Have fun and enjoy life!
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John M Knapp LMSW
Hi, Twinky,
You make a good point. I need to think about it some more. My first thought is I need to own the experience. I was a TM teacher and lectured to some thousands of people and provided services of various kinds to thousands more. (It was a really big group back in the 70s.)
Part of why I chose my profession is that I have a need to make some amends. I talked people into buying "courses" and other products. And I told lies that I was conscious were lies -- even if I thought at the time I was acting for a "greater good."
So in some sense, I think I may have "bought-in" more than you describe. Calling it "my cult" may be justified. Let me think about your point some more....
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