Becoming de-wayed is a process for sure. When I first departed from fellowships, I found myself alone and quiet on the sofa just shaking. I had become so accustomed to the constant intrusions and interruptions of daily life in the way that I had difficulty adjusting to being by myself !
So that couple who recently left will encounter awkward moments of quiet and alone-ness for awhile, but they will discover its WONDERFUL benefits !
And making mistakes ? In the Way, these were not allowed or you were put on exhibit ! But outside the Way, stuff happens and I don't always have an explanation. And sometimes---sometimes, mind you---- ( okay, often ) I make mistakes.
However I am a responsible adult so I seek to rectify, repair, and minimize the extent of my screw-ups. I answer for them, but only to the proper authorities now and a God full of grace, mercy and forgiveness is at the top of that list !
That new couple out on their own will have to learn to live with making a few mistakes and realize that nobody else is keeping score.
I'm thrilled they have the opportunity to live a more abundant life now....it's not too late !
And making mistakes ? In the Way, these were not allowed or you were put on exhibit ! But outside the Way, stuff happens and I don't always have an explanation. And sometimes---sometimes, mind you---- ( okay, often ) I make mistakes.
However I am a responsible adult so I seek to rectify, repair, and minimize the extent of my screw-ups. I answer for them, but only to the proper authorities now and a God full of grace, mercy and forgiveness is at the top of that list !
That new couple out on their own will have to learn to live with making a few mistakes and realize that nobody else is keeping score.
I'm thrilled they have the opportunity to live a more abundant life now....it's not too late !
I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong. :D
Seriously, though, I know what you mean. I went through a period where I felt like I couldn't do anything right. I'm only starting to get over that.
The essence of Waybrain is not so much the doctrine as the absolute control over what we thought. We were not allowed to consider any teaching/doctrine other than what TWI gave us and our critical thinking abilities were crushed.
Coupled with that, we were taught that we were better than other people (and specifically, better than other Christians), and others were to be treated with suspicion.
I think (yes, I think nowadays) that if we can get rid of that superiority idea that we are the only ones God will speak to, but instead learn to respect other people (especially other Christians); and if we can examine such doctrines or beliefs as we still subscribe to, in light of what we learn from others (especially other Christians), we can with honesty consider ourselves "de-Wayed."
WD, nobody is asking you to abandon all your beliefs as taught by TWI. Some of them are required for any Christian (a belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus, for example, which appears in PFAL but doesn't receive much publicity later).
It's a matter of examining one's beliefs carefully and honestly, and adjusting where necessary. And also of continually adjusting, where necessary, as we learn and understand more and we are reminded of other scriptures which throw a different light on a belief. It is essential to understand the difference between what God instructs, and man's instructions. In other words, thinking about and not just absorbing what has been taught.
So yes, with an open heart to God, it is possible to be "de-Wayed" - though as a specific time of our lives, it will always be part of our history.
My story is a bit different than most. I grew up in the Way believing their teachings without questions. Into adult life I carried many of those beliefs with me without even realizing it. It influenced my life in ways that I can't remember in at this point.
When my family walked away from the Way I was afraid to attend any church out of fear that another man would be made out to be God. Thankfully, I knew at least that much, that no man is God. What God did for me after losing the Way changed my life forever. He said, audibly, it's not about religion, it's about faith.... Do you have faith in me? I answered yes. At that point God began the fundamental changes in my life, and started to weed out incorrect Way teachings.
The one thing I keep with me from those times is the ability to pray, and it was prayer that set allowed God to work in my life. So, no matter what happens it's key to keep praying because God will weed out the tumbleweeds.
I recently attended a Twig meeting, and for those of you who were wondering, not much has changed. The "man of god" gives his interpretations of Scriptures while utilizing various sources and no one thinks to question cause he sounds like the authority--Crawled under my skin like a Guinea worm.... :blink:
I can't begin to tell you how scared I was to walk into that meeting. I was literally shaking from all the emotion/memories and afraid of being discovered for the interloper I was. :ph34r: I can't begin to tell you how hard it is to play stupid and ignorant of all things Way when you're not. Of course, I couldn't keep my mouth shut on the Biblical stuff, so, I challenged some of what this guy was teaching. We had one young fella in there who didn't have my Biblical or Way background, and it took a force of nature to keep me from ripping him out of there.
By the end of the meeting they asked me what I do, needless to say, I didn't tell them. The one comment that was made was I know my Scripture. Oops! Should kept my big mouth shut.
It's a matter of examining one's beliefs carefully and honestly, and adjusting where necessary. And also of continually adjusting, where necessary, as we learn and understand more and we are reminded of other scriptures which throw a different light on a belief. It is essential to understand the difference between what God instructs, and man's instructions. In other words, thinking about and not just absorbing what has been taught.
I agree Twinky where I suppose we disagree is that I don't believe that I was ever taught not to think, or not to examine things and make adjustments where necessary. Undoubtedly mistakes were made along the way, I can afford them the same space to make mistakes as I have for myself.
Many people think they are attracted to something because of the qualities of the something: I'm in love with my wife because she's the perfect one for me OR I follow the way because it's the calling of god.
I believe we are attracted to things because of the connection between who we are, what we like, want, need on the one hand, and the thing on the other hand. Some people just love cabbage. Others can't be in the same room with it. The cabbage is no different.
I think the "big" attractions - our loves, our callings etc function in a similar way - a combination of what's driving us and what they offer.
So in answer to the question about de-waying, it depends on them, what in them was attracted to the way and how ready they are to deal with that. If they don't change that, and just get out of the way, they'll have the same longing, desire etc and be attracted by something else that meets that need. It may look similar (like a spin off) or it may look very different, but the interaction of them and the thing will probably have similar emotional tones to it.
If they do change who they are and what's driving them, then they can adapt much quicker and more completely. And they'll be attracted to other things, people etc. Hopefully more healthy ones.
So in answer to the question about de-waying, it depends on them, what in them was attracted to the way and how ready they are to deal with that. If they don't change that, and just get out of the way, they'll have the same longing, desire etc and be attracted by something else that meets that need. It may look similar (like a spin off) or it may look very different, but the interaction of them and the thing will probably have similar emotional tones to it.
Great post. I just started referring to myself as a born again atheist, because I realized that I'm now as fervently devoted to that as I ever was for the Way.
I agree Twinky where I suppose we disagree is that I don't believe that I was ever taught not to think, or not to examine things and make adjustments where necessary. Undoubtedly mistakes were made along the way, I can afford them the same space to make mistakes as I have for myself.
Actually TWI was touted as an organization where you don't check your brain at the door, which was a big deal for me. That was rhetoric - nothing more. When I questioned the tithe on the basis of it not being mentioned in "our" administration, I was shut down. There was no room for discussion on that and many other issues, including the discussion about what was allowable behavior to "bring someone to the Word". When I point blank asked for a discussion on those issues I was told I was not "spiritual enough" to have those discussions as I had not been in the corp. So, when I asked for the chapter and verse that defended that thinking, I was reprimanded for being disrespectful.
The only "adjustments" that were acceptable were those that brought personal views in line with TWI views. If your thinking differed from that thinking, it was best if you kept that to yourself.
It's one thing to make mistakes. Mistakes are good for learning. That only happens when mistakes are acknowledged. We aren't seeing a wide-spread acknowledgment of mistakes except in the context of attempts to repackage the whole thing with fresh paper without the more obvious mistakes like abuse and adultery. The basic premise is alive and well - This is the greatest thing since the first century church" - the claim by TWI and every splinter.
You do seem to have a natural proclivity towards the mindset, so there might have never been the need to interfere much with your thinking.
Actually TWI was touted as an organization where you don't check your brain at the door, which was a big deal for me. That was rhetoric - nothing more....
You've got that right! Interesting how that worked. Typically before someone took the class, their questions and challenges were often rebuffed by grads with side-stepping tactics like You just need to take the PFAL Class. All your questions will be answered.
And after someone took the class, their questions and challenges were often ignored by really "sharp" leadership [aka, salesmen] with side-stepping tactics like, You just need to sit through PFAL again…or, You should spend more time working the collaterals…and if they were really good salesmen they'd get the newbie all excited about working toward taking the Advanced Class - where all your questions will be answered. ...sounds like a broken record.
They were usually highly skilled in various innocent-sounding mind-numbing techniques. Oh, they often led folks to believe one didn't have to check their brain at the door – but bottom line was they had all kinds of subtle tricks for keeping a follower's brain in check.
i've gotten as far as your hearts, and i want you to know how much i appreciate you
and my dear al a. i hope they do okay. that's a long time to think one way
i never went near an offshoot and in fact i moved away from all wayfers and came back to my mommy and sibs
the hardest thing for me recently is that i totally totally trusted some friends, and they hurt me badly. I had this skewed idea that it wouldn't happen to me in my new world
...they had all kinds of subtle tricks for keeping a follower's brain in check.
T-Bone...nobody in the world could call "mark and avoid" subtle. Not even TWI with their amazing ability for double speak!
Love your posts, T-Bone, and often read the books you suggest. Am working through one of the Linda Elder books on critical thinking right now. One day I might get to be as sharp as I was (or clearly wasn't (!) ) when I took PFAL and had all those niggling questions and concerns.
Tzaia: "like mindedness" is one of those concepts that was abused. We are to put on the mind of Jesus Christ - not the mind of the "man of God", "President", twig leader or whoever else fancies being in authority.
Also, we are to be "imitators" (followers) of our leadership as our leadership is itself imitators of Christ (1 Cor 11:1). TWI demanded followship of the rank and file but forgot about or ignored their followship of Christ.
i've gotten as far as your hearts, and i want you to know how much i appreciate you
and my dear al a. i hope they do okay. that's a long time to think one way
i never went near an offshoot and in fact i moved away from all wayfers and came back to my mommy and sibs
the hardest thing for me recently is that i totally totally trusted some friends, and they hurt me badly. I had this skewed idea that it wouldn't happen to me in my new world
lol
Dear Sweet((((Excie)))),
I am so sorry that You were hurt again!!! You most certainly don't deserve to be hurt. You have been hurt far
more than most people that I have ever known and still taken it all with great grace and dignity. You never lash
out at them in kind! it is tragically sad for them to act in a hurtful manner toward You.
Friends are supposed to see Your heart, have your back, run to rescue You, guard Your love and heart, and
reputation from harm...You know exemplify Christ's Love!!!
Excie so many of us here truly love and respect You; Always know that You are never at a total loss of friends
and family.
I know it hurts when some long standing friends wound You callously and unexpectedly. It makes
You wonder if they ever truly were Your friends and what they ever based it on. I hope it is a misunderstanding
though and You all will be able to work it out and to build better and stronger bonds.
Last but never least; NEVER forget GOD's love and protection for Your gentle Heart will always be with
You.!!!
Thank You for withstanding all the pains and suffering slung at You....and being here to Love
Guide and Help others so bravely and selflessly for all these years in Your own beautiful way!!!
You are a gentle , sweet soul with amazing wit and charm!!!
i've gotten as far as your hearts, and i want you to know how much i appreciate you
and my dear al a. i hope they do okay. that's a long time to think one way
i never went near an offshoot and in fact i moved away from all wayfers and came back to my mommy and sibs
the hardest thing for me recently is that i totally totally trusted some friends, and they hurt me badly. I had this skewed idea that it wouldn't happen to me in my new world
lol
Hi Excie.
I think your heart far surpasses mine. I am sorry too that people you trusted hurt you. I wish I had half your grace and goodness.
Actually TWI was touted as an organization where you don't check your brain at the door, which was a big deal for me. That was rhetoric - nothing more. When I questioned the tithe on the basis of it not being mentioned in "our" administration, I was shut down. There was no room for discussion on that and many other issues, including the discussion about what was allowable behavior to "bring someone to the Word". When I point blank asked for a discussion on those issues I was told I was not "spiritual enough" to have those discussions as I had not been in the corp. So, when I asked for the chapter and verse that defended that thinking, I was reprimanded for being disrespectful.
The only "adjustments" that were acceptable were those that brought personal views in line with TWI views. If your thinking differed from that thinking, it was best if you kept that to yourself.
It's one thing to make mistakes. Mistakes are good for learning. That only happens when mistakes are acknowledged. We aren't seeing a wide-spread acknowledgment of mistakes except in the context of attempts to repackage the whole thing with fresh paper without the more obvious mistakes like abuse and adultery. The basic premise is alive and well - This is the greatest thing since the first century church" - the claim by TWI and every splinter.
You do seem to have a natural proclivity towards the mindset, so there might have never been the need to interfere much with your thinking.
Well there you go the fact that you asked questions is proof that you were free to think, and did. Good for you! Now I never said that they would agree with you or that there would be no resistance. Eventually if you keep asking questions they run out of answers.
So, when I asked for the chapter and verse that defended that thinking, I was reprimanded for being disrespectful.
The next question in your example would have been, In the renewed mind class we were taught to be on guard with chapter and verse are you suggesting that what was taught was in error? Is it your position that documenting chapter and verse is disrespectful in some way? If so could you clarify your position from the scriptures, because as I see it they seem to imply that we are to do that very thing.
this particular "situation" will not get healed or better, i don't think
people can do things to really hurt you, and i'm not sure..... i don't know what they're thinking, but it's okay. i learned a great lesson and i'm glad about that.
i think possibly it comes down to their insecurities and that some people feel better about themselves after they've put you down
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one T
Becoming de-wayed is a process for sure. When I first departed from fellowships, I found myself alone and quiet on the sofa just shaking. I had become so accustomed to the constant intrusions and interruptions of daily life in the way that I had difficulty adjusting to being by myself !
So that couple who recently left will encounter awkward moments of quiet and alone-ness for awhile, but they will discover its WONDERFUL benefits !
And making mistakes ? In the Way, these were not allowed or you were put on exhibit ! But outside the Way, stuff happens and I don't always have an explanation. And sometimes---sometimes, mind you---- ( okay, often ) I make mistakes.
However I am a responsible adult so I seek to rectify, repair, and minimize the extent of my screw-ups. I answer for them, but only to the proper authorities now and a God full of grace, mercy and forgiveness is at the top of that list !
That new couple out on their own will have to learn to live with making a few mistakes and realize that nobody else is keeping score.
I'm thrilled they have the opportunity to live a more abundant life now....it's not too late !
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WhiteDove
Geeeze I hope not .....I don't have another 35 years to relearn it all over again.
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Mark Clarke
I thought I made a mistake once, but I was wrong. :D
Seriously, though, I know what you mean. I went through a period where I felt like I couldn't do anything right. I'm only starting to get over that.
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Twinky
The essence of Waybrain is not so much the doctrine as the absolute control over what we thought. We were not allowed to consider any teaching/doctrine other than what TWI gave us and our critical thinking abilities were crushed.
Coupled with that, we were taught that we were better than other people (and specifically, better than other Christians), and others were to be treated with suspicion.
I think (yes, I think nowadays) that if we can get rid of that superiority idea that we are the only ones God will speak to, but instead learn to respect other people (especially other Christians); and if we can examine such doctrines or beliefs as we still subscribe to, in light of what we learn from others (especially other Christians), we can with honesty consider ourselves "de-Wayed."
WD, nobody is asking you to abandon all your beliefs as taught by TWI. Some of them are required for any Christian (a belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus, for example, which appears in PFAL but doesn't receive much publicity later).
It's a matter of examining one's beliefs carefully and honestly, and adjusting where necessary. And also of continually adjusting, where necessary, as we learn and understand more and we are reminded of other scriptures which throw a different light on a belief. It is essential to understand the difference between what God instructs, and man's instructions. In other words, thinking about and not just absorbing what has been taught.
So yes, with an open heart to God, it is possible to be "de-Wayed" - though as a specific time of our lives, it will always be part of our history.
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ihrleben
My story is a bit different than most. I grew up in the Way believing their teachings without questions. Into adult life I carried many of those beliefs with me without even realizing it. It influenced my life in ways that I can't remember in at this point.
When my family walked away from the Way I was afraid to attend any church out of fear that another man would be made out to be God. Thankfully, I knew at least that much, that no man is God. What God did for me after losing the Way changed my life forever. He said, audibly, it's not about religion, it's about faith.... Do you have faith in me? I answered yes. At that point God began the fundamental changes in my life, and started to weed out incorrect Way teachings.
The one thing I keep with me from those times is the ability to pray, and it was prayer that set allowed God to work in my life. So, no matter what happens it's key to keep praying because God will weed out the tumbleweeds.
I recently attended a Twig meeting, and for those of you who were wondering, not much has changed. The "man of god" gives his interpretations of Scriptures while utilizing various sources and no one thinks to question cause he sounds like the authority--Crawled under my skin like a Guinea worm.... :blink:
I can't begin to tell you how scared I was to walk into that meeting. I was literally shaking from all the emotion/memories and afraid of being discovered for the interloper I was. :ph34r: I can't begin to tell you how hard it is to play stupid and ignorant of all things Way when you're not. Of course, I couldn't keep my mouth shut on the Biblical stuff, so, I challenged some of what this guy was teaching. We had one young fella in there who didn't have my Biblical or Way background, and it took a force of nature to keep me from ripping him out of there.
By the end of the meeting they asked me what I do, needless to say, I didn't tell them. The one comment that was made was I know my Scripture. Oops! Should kept my big mouth shut.
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WhiteDove
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My3Cents
Many people think they are attracted to something because of the qualities of the something: I'm in love with my wife because she's the perfect one for me OR I follow the way because it's the calling of god.
I believe we are attracted to things because of the connection between who we are, what we like, want, need on the one hand, and the thing on the other hand. Some people just love cabbage. Others can't be in the same room with it. The cabbage is no different.
I think the "big" attractions - our loves, our callings etc function in a similar way - a combination of what's driving us and what they offer.
So in answer to the question about de-waying, it depends on them, what in them was attracted to the way and how ready they are to deal with that. If they don't change that, and just get out of the way, they'll have the same longing, desire etc and be attracted by something else that meets that need. It may look similar (like a spin off) or it may look very different, but the interaction of them and the thing will probably have similar emotional tones to it.
If they do change who they are and what's driving them, then they can adapt much quicker and more completely. And they'll be attracted to other things, people etc. Hopefully more healthy ones.
- Just my 2 cents and one for inflation.
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Nato
Great post. I just started referring to myself as a born again atheist, because I realized that I'm now as fervently devoted to that as I ever was for the Way.
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Tzaia
Actually TWI was touted as an organization where you don't check your brain at the door, which was a big deal for me. That was rhetoric - nothing more. When I questioned the tithe on the basis of it not being mentioned in "our" administration, I was shut down. There was no room for discussion on that and many other issues, including the discussion about what was allowable behavior to "bring someone to the Word". When I point blank asked for a discussion on those issues I was told I was not "spiritual enough" to have those discussions as I had not been in the corp. So, when I asked for the chapter and verse that defended that thinking, I was reprimanded for being disrespectful.
The only "adjustments" that were acceptable were those that brought personal views in line with TWI views. If your thinking differed from that thinking, it was best if you kept that to yourself.
It's one thing to make mistakes. Mistakes are good for learning. That only happens when mistakes are acknowledged. We aren't seeing a wide-spread acknowledgment of mistakes except in the context of attempts to repackage the whole thing with fresh paper without the more obvious mistakes like abuse and adultery. The basic premise is alive and well - This is the greatest thing since the first century church" - the claim by TWI and every splinter.
You do seem to have a natural proclivity towards the mindset, so there might have never been the need to interfere much with your thinking.
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T-Bone
You've got that right! Interesting how that worked. Typically before someone took the class, their questions and challenges were often rebuffed by grads with side-stepping tactics like You just need to take the PFAL Class. All your questions will be answered.
And after someone took the class, their questions and challenges were often ignored by really "sharp" leadership [aka, salesmen] with side-stepping tactics like, You just need to sit through PFAL again…or, You should spend more time working the collaterals…and if they were really good salesmen they'd get the newbie all excited about working toward taking the Advanced Class - where all your questions will be answered. ...sounds like a broken record.
They were usually highly skilled in various innocent-sounding mind-numbing techniques. Oh, they often led folks to believe one didn't have to check their brain at the door – but bottom line was they had all kinds of subtle tricks for keeping a follower's brain in check.
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excathedra
oh, thank you geisha
and thank you so much rainbow
i've gotten as far as your hearts, and i want you to know how much i appreciate you
and my dear al a. i hope they do okay. that's a long time to think one way
i never went near an offshoot and in fact i moved away from all wayfers and came back to my mommy and sibs
the hardest thing for me recently is that i totally totally trusted some friends, and they hurt me badly. I had this skewed idea that it wouldn't happen to me in my new world
lol
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Twinky
T-Bone...nobody in the world could call "mark and avoid" subtle.
Not even TWI with their amazing ability for double speak!
Love your posts, T-Bone, and often read the books you suggest. Am working through one of the Linda Elder books on critical thinking right now. One day I might get to be as sharp as I was (or clearly wasn't (!) ) when I took PFAL and had all those niggling questions and concerns.
Tzaia: "like mindedness" is one of those concepts that was abused. We are to put on the mind of Jesus Christ - not the mind of the "man of God", "President", twig leader or whoever else fancies being in authority.
Also, we are to be "imitators" (followers) of our leadership as our leadership is itself imitators of Christ (1 Cor 11:1). TWI demanded followship of the rank and file but forgot about or ignored their followship of Christ.
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RainbowsGirl
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geisha779
Hi Excie.
I think your heart far surpasses mine. I am sorry too that people you trusted hurt you. I wish I had half your grace and goodness.
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WhiteDove
Well there you go the fact that you asked questions is proof that you were free to think, and did. Good for you! Now I never said that they would agree with you or that there would be no resistance. Eventually if you keep asking questions they run out of answers.
So, when I asked for the chapter and verse that defended that thinking, I was reprimanded for being disrespectful.
The next question in your example would have been, In the renewed mind class we were taught to be on guard with chapter and verse are you suggesting that what was taught was in error? Is it your position that documenting chapter and verse is disrespectful in some way? If so could you clarify your position from the scriptures, because as I see it they seem to imply that we are to do that very thing.
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excathedra
oh, thank you rainbow and geish
this particular "situation" will not get healed or better, i don't think
people can do things to really hurt you, and i'm not sure..... i don't know what they're thinking, but it's okay. i learned a great lesson and i'm glad about that.
i think possibly it comes down to their insecurities and that some people feel better about themselves after they've put you down
but my mistake was total trust
but enough of that lol
thank you very much
back to our regularly scheduled program
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