I think what I'm trying to get at is ... this couple have been 'submersed' in this doctrine for so long...they don't know who/what they are anymore. TWI morphed them into who they became and they obviously liked it in order for them to hang on as long as they did.
Yes, they will remove themselves from the problem... but the real problem actually lives within them...
I think that it depends on who/what you surround yourself with. If you hang around like minded people who support what you believe, you don`t see the need to change.
I don`t think that I would have ever changed if I had been any where near an off shoot. Most significant of all in my recovery were waydale and grease spot.
I wonder if leaving TWI will really change things for them?
Will they still walk down the street and believe God for it to not rain because they're shopping that day?
Will they still believe that they have been taught the greatest truths anyone has ever known since before the 1st century church?
Will they despise church goers and believe that those who do are sad sad sad pathetic peons being used by the seed boy himself ... the pope?
Will they believe that revelation is right there for them to listen to that still small voice in order to know where to find that bathroom in the dept store?
Inquiring minds want to know.....
What happens when things go bad? Someone is sick? Someones passes away? Job loss? Kid get's in trouble? Things don't run smoothly--marraige goes through a rough patch?
What happens when people in the real world--don't see the greatness of believing=recieving? Or, someone challenges them with reason and logic and they are completely unprepared to answer? Not everyone knows TWI's "Rightly divided gnostic gospel" or uses the bible as their authority to sin.
Will everyone outside the "Household" who disagrees with them be "possesed"? Devil Spirit influenced?
You can't live your life in a TWI vacuum, you just don't function well--at least not when confronted with the diverse society in which we find ourselves.
It was the 1980's when last they last probably lived in the "World". Big hair is gone--shoulder pads are "out" and the "Police" broke-up--Sting went solo!
For me, the transition into the world was a real challenge--- I think that is why many seek an offshoot. Maybe it is like a step-down program.
Can I just share a bit of what happened to me--it is how I look at the transition--as it is what I lived. I never planned it--it just unfolded this way. . . .
If they do seek a church for fellowship--that is a process. I went through many churches--never fitting in because I didn't adhere to the BASIC tenents of the Christian faith. I embarassed myself completely--challenging ministers--being argumentitive--wanting to show them the error of their beliefs.
Oddly enough--they didn't fall for it. After awhile, I gave up seeking church---I really didn't belong there--not being at odds with their faith.
I gave up on God for awhile.
I went to college. Amherst. Culture shock! It was the best thing I could have done. Met people I really liked--learned again, what it meant to accept someone without agreeing with their entire worldview. Changed my politics after seeing the same us vs them mentality.
Took a few classes at Smith College--Huge homosexual population--met people I had previously judged as evil--liked many of them and made FRIENDS!!
Mt. Holyoke College. Met older students like me--seeking to better their lives--made friends with WONDERFUL people of other faiths! Oh My!!
My kids helped as well, they had friends of other faiths-cultures-nationalities. I was confronted with diversity the more I put myself out there.
Learned a second language. ---really got into that--music, culture, lit. . . . that was fun. I had an illegal immigrant speaking partner from the Ivory Coast.
Went into her underground world where many hide from the government. What a network!!
Then I felt that old familar pull of God. Decided to really look at it ---instead of taking it on faith. I reasoned and weighed the
evidence for myself this time. Understood things I had just refused to see before. I started to fit in at church--sharing a common faith. Believing things for
myself--not afraid of "Devils" under every rock, I got to accept Christians--know them--LIKE them!! They are people with faults--just like me. :)
I stopped trying to keep myself from the world and all its influences--I learned to live in it peacefully while still adhering to my own world view.
So, all this didn't happen over night. I am still a Christian--just not a "Special Knowledge" elite super-hero with magic power, kind. I have a family--own a
home-- jobs----used to participate in local government.
It was not an easy process--each step stripped me of WAY think. I was not in nearly 30 years.
Hubby was in longer than me. . . . and his journey was a bit different. We had a young Christian friend--whom hubby knew well--He died a tragic death at 23 years old. That had a huge impact on evaluating things. This young man, Sean, was truly an awesome servant of God. We watched his family grieve with such grace--putting the gospel out there and still praising God--not confused by their lack of believing or where the hedge of protection went. No talk of blame--or leaving the household. They had faith and dignity.
You don't just walk out one day and say--all better. Look where we have all landed? Different lives--beliefs--ethics. . .
So, given my own experience--I think they will for awhile--walk around in a TWI fog. But, I hope for them--a few rough seas to strip them of it--and bring them back to a life with joy--happiness--and yes--sorrow and some pain. It is all part of the big picture--it is called living!!
I think alot depends on where their lives go after they leave. If they slide into a splinter group fellowship that is comfortable they might not feel a need to branch out to churches etc and not change much.
When we (in 20 years for me, longer for hubby) left, we had good relationships still with my family, though not with hubby's. So somewhere in the back of our minds through our TWI years we had knowledge that people outside TWI could be 'okay' even while giving the nod to TWI's isolation doctrine.
Hubby also retained a friendship from his youth outside TWI as did I. Those connections were so important when we initially left, since we were so isolated in the town we lived in--our every activity except work had been TWI, all our friends were TWI and the cut off of M&A was abrupt.
They gave us glimpses of what real people are like, people with friends and interests, hobbies, plans, goals, none of which involved saving for the next Adance Class special or the next branch meeting or cleaning the limb home.
I was in for 25 years. It is very difficult to recover from such interwoven entanglements of good and bad.
I came to GRSC the end of January 2007 and stayed until November
2007. I came back this last June or July.
The last 10 years after being marked and avoided because I would not give up my specially abled son to better
serve GOD, to attend all functions and classes and to go Corpse was when I discovered GRSC. I was shocked,
amazed and deeply hurt for myself and all the the victims of TWI to find out the hidden agendas that lied
unknown to me in the underbelly of TWI. Before I came here I had read information on a wide variety of off-
shoot sites and the POP.
I didn't know what to believe even though some of the pieces that puzzled me started to fit together.
I had done everything that I possibly could. I took all the classes, we went "wow" Josh even with a 2 minute
attention span sat through all the class and spoke in tongues as prescribed....on his own and does on his own
even now at times.
We did everything that we could possibly do and were still becoming more and more the reject ables. Too needy
and too unavailable to service the cause. Same standard that the world holds was being applied under a
different guise that I knew was wrong. Just because we were members of TWI did not necessarily mean that all
our former fears and prejudices could not rear their ugly heads at our own wills
These were many of the people that I had believed prayed for Josh when He was born and 4 month's later had
kidney surgery . The doctor said in the middle of the surgery that he had removed the damaged kidney, but
thought it was impossible to repair and to attach the other one.
I prayed that GOD would fix it because I knew our whole branch was praying for Josh and they knew how to
believe so I asked GOD to save him. I told that brilliant, brilliant surgeon to go back in and do whatever he
could and should do and that GOD would do the rest. He looked at me like I had blown His mind and somewhat
compassionately too. After 4 months waiting for Josh to breathe on his own. I knew GOD would not let Him die.
Many of You may not understand this, but in a great many ways my experiences with and in TWI were really
unique. I understand that all of our experiences in anything are uniquely our own in understanding and
perspective. Each of our views of TWI are so intertwined with the people we spend those years with.
The differences that were mainly unique to me were that I was in TWI near the beginning when perhaps
VPW's intents and actions were not fully skewed and far less known at my level or in my area.
When I was witnessed too by D@l0res Dere$ha, Micheal Dur*nce, and Ted J%ck$on, I was a Flower
Child/Cocktail Waitress running a popcorn wagon for a friend in my open evenings. It was in a 60's type drug
using, free love style neighborhood The people were kinda gaudy running around with glittered sheets on,
smelling of incense, patchily and weed a searching culture...an extended remnant of the die-hard Hippie culture
of the 60's.
They D.D, M.D. and T.J. were so loving and kind to me. They would visit there and walk me home and carry
my small TV up 6 to 8 flights of stairs for me many a night. They knew that I didn't feel entirely safe there and
did not subscribe to the drugs and free love part of that culture and society.
They had invited me to their Fellowship and meetings and I went to some. I was kind of scared of them too as
all my life I had seen GOD's hand present over and over rescuing and protecting me; so I only wanted to know
the truth about him. I was afraid of them because they seemed so interested in me. I wasn't used to that.
Several times I asked them point blank what they wanted and why the came??? I never really gave them my
full attention; I was always daydreaming or lost in my own thoughts categorizing, analyzing and sorting life's
anomalies. Of course, I really didn't know the norms from the anomalies either...but I thought extensively on it
all! A lot of the rest of the time I was lost in music and my friends; until the following event!
One day T.J. had asked me to come to a picnic or something of that sort. I said that I would come and He had
arranged to pick me up. He came as he had said he would. He climbed all those stairs and knocked on my
door. Me, :( I pretended I wasn't home. I was scared to go and equally ashamed that I was hiding from such
truly genuinely loving and kind people who in fact were also seeking to know GOD and His word truly with
innocence and purity.
T.J went all the way back to the event several miles away. To my amazement He tried again about an hour
later. He came back all that way for me. He had gone so many extra miles both literally and figuratively, it
spoke volumes to my heart.
I was so taken by His love, His honesty and His integrity concerning GOD and His Word that I was convinced to
fellowship with them. That was my entrance into TWI.
Shortly after I took the class and I went to my first ROA's. It was still in Lima.
We went in J#rry #lg#r's (I think that was His name anyway) car an old beater. No real preparations, just real
heart and desire to be there! We collectively had no money for gas, no tents or camping gear and very little
money to eat on. How did we get there??? I have no other explanation but that GOD somehow decided to
rescue us and get us there! We never broke down or ran out of gas and when we arrived immediately we were
invited in and given places to stay throughout the entire ROA's It was as advertised like heaven on earth. All I
met the were generously loving, GOD hungry people.
Now to answer Your questions as best that I can Ala:
My question is...
I wonder if leaving TWI will really change things for them?
[b]Somethings will change! The more I sort out , grow and learn. Somethings don't need to change, not ever thing was wrong. Their agenda was wrong and the twisting of the Word was wrong and their despicable abuses were indeed wrong. The genuine love and heart of the many seeking God's true Word and heart was not wrong[/b]
Will they still walk down the street and believe God for it to not rain because they're shopping that day?
No not in this manner; but I will always believe in prayer and signs wonders and miracles; and that they are still available to us all, as GOD is!
Will they still believe that they have been taught the greatest truths anyone has ever known since before the 1st century church?
Somewhat, possibly because the things that were godly from GOD's word do not change; and they were not all on their doctrinal agendas or all being twisted
Will they despise church goers and believe that those who do are sad sad sad pathetic peons being used by the seed boy himself ... the pope?
NO, It was the genuine People's hearts and love that drew me nearer to GOD. Some people in TWI never believed that or a lot of their other doctrines..We knew we weren't allowed to
question them. Being part of something does not always mean that You willingly accept all of it
Will they believe that revelation is right there for them to listen to that still small voice in order to know where to find that bathroom in the dept store?
No, I think many of us want only to hear the genuine still small voice of GOD as it is intended by GOD and His Word to be
All those years that we were encased and intertwinedtogether with genuinely good and godly people and some very bad and devious people, a great many varied lessens were learned. It is a big thing to sort out and untangle from it all.
I will keep the good memories and heal from the old disfunctional ones, along with my old disfunctions one that
I brought with me into TWI. I will use more wisdom; I don't know whether or not I would
have sought out GOD without them; the people I willalways love from TWI. GOD's foreknowledge of my life tells me He was there and that He knew I
I think there's always hope in de-Waying the mind, if one is aware of the problem. I've heard it said To articulate the problem means it's halfway solved. And something I picked up from an old Christian Counseling seminar Investigate, Isolate, Eliminate,which sorta goes along the lines of the first quip.
Considering my own experience of unraveling 12 years of an entangling TWI-mindset - this whole de-Waying process can get very complicated and tedious on some issues. And some of it isn't so easy to identify - cuz going into TWI, I brought in whatever personal dysfunctionality with me - which compounds the problem. I wanna tell ya, the cognitive distortions of the TWI-mindset and depression are not a good mix! :(
On the topic of de-Waying - I often think about the point of self-examination Jesus made in Matthew 7. I can't help anyone else deal with the little splinter of a fault in their perception if I don't first address the huge plank of a fault in mine. Jesus didn't say it couldn't be done - He said it should be done first, before attempting to help another. And that's gonna take honesty & humility.
Who are they really underneath the "bless yous" and the "I'm JUST believing for (whatever)", and the "I JUST know that God can do (whatever)"?
I think it'll take them some time to decompress, but how long is entirely dependant on who they really are, why they got involved in a flakey, deceptive, $hitty little cult to begin with, and what realization finally got them to leave.
For me, it doesn't seem like it really took all that long. But then, I was never the "sold out dulous", "The Way Corps or DEATH" kinda Wayfer. I always felt uncomfortable doing the Wayfer rituals ("manifestations", leading songs, stringing chairs, and - above all - WITNESSING), so leaving was actually quite a relief for me. That being said, I carried a lot of baggage till I stumbled upon WayDale. Then the catharsis of multiple postings everyday for a few months really did me a world of good.
And now, I really don't feel anything about WayWorld. I mean, I still deeply regret ever getting involved with the stupid "MLM for Jesus", just for the utterly wasted years that I'll never get back. But as far as residual WayBrain, I think I pretty well licked that many years ago. There's just none of that groupthink left in me. In fact, I have trouble even remembering what the "company line" was on so many subjects now. Of course, the possibility does exist that that's a symptom of another ill - AGING, but let's not go there, 'kay?
Thank you all who've taken the time to respond....
I've read all the posts and find them all very informative and very perceptive.
There are a few wonderful quotes I'd love to bring up:
Rascallion,
I don`t think that I would have ever changed if I had been any where near an off shoot. Most significant of all in my recovery were waydale and grease spot.
Amen sista'
I said many times that learning what I learnt here on GS put those mysterious floating puzzle pieces together and created the real picture of what TWI's agenda was all about. For years I suspected it...but had no real evidence except of course, for the damage to my soul and to others'.
Polar Boy,
It took a long time to get "way brained" it's gonna take some time to change.
I so agree with you. Those who think they can walk away and think it's 'all gone' are in a heap of trouble in my opinion. they are certainly not being honest with themselves. It's almost like they think they put a certain shirt on and the next day, put on a different shirt and that that somehow changes the person wearing the shirt. It just doesn't work like that.
Geisha,
It was the 1980's when last they last probably lived in the "World". Big hair is gone--shoulder pads are "out" and the "Police" broke-up--Sting went solo!
:lol: Thanks for the chuckle.
In your post I felt you explained many many different avenues to recovery;
You went to church and did what you did and realized it was the wrong approach.
You went back to school to better yourself.
You engaged yourself with situations and people you would have in the past ruled out completely.
You returned to church and realized that Christians are people too.
You and your husband observed the loss of a young man and the way the family dealt with their loss. The way you described this and compared it to how it would have been handled within those retched walls of Zion in TWI was incredibly revealing.
All in all... having done and experienced so many avenues, I believe, helped you to become a more rounded individual who is able to be open to all persons and like you said:
I stopped trying to keep myself from the world and all its influences--I learned to live in it peacefully while still adhering to my own world view.
Thank you for taking the time to write all this. It was wonderful and I so appreciate it.
Bramble,
If they slide into a splinter group fellowship that is comfortable they might not feel a need to branch out to churches etc and not change much.
I believe that makes all the difference!....
Years ago, I remember reading about a wonderful drug-rehab program developed by a social worker in Calgary Alberta. The details are sketchy, but I'll do my best to tell you what I remember.
It had enormous success and had won awards in its field. It was a very different approach compared to most drug re-hab programs in that the first thing was that the rehab centre was located in one of suburbs of Calgary and not in the downtown core of the city where most of the drug addicts lived. The philosophy behind this was to get them out of their 'comfort' zone. Away from the addicts, street kids, drug pushers...their temptations.
Another aspect of the program was... if they came to the centre, they would be given 25$ for having solely come out, but they had to promise to come back the next week and at that time would be given 15$ each visit. Now the social worker said they knew that for many ... the first time they'd come would be solely to get the money in order to pay for their habit. The next time...maybe it would be as well...but each time they would come they'd be out of their environmental comfort zone and spending less and less time with their 'cronies'. At the end the 'user' would start to see another life outside of their street life. They'd see that there was 'life' outside the downtown sleazy area. More and more the addict would spend longer and longer time at the center rather than rushing back to their life on the street. The program was and I hope is still one of the most successful programs of its sort.
So I do agree that slipping into another VP associated offshoot cult is about the worse thing you could do for yourself.
Rainbow Girl,
Thanks for telling your story. It is genuinely a sad sad story when situations like yours and your son would arise in TWI and TWI would want to shun them..treat you like outcasts. There is absolutely NO excuse for this NONE. It is evil, pure evil. It is human nature at its worse.
T-bone,
I loved your quote from Matthew 7
Matthew 7. I can't help anyone else deal with the little splinter of a fault in their perception if I don't first address the huge plank of a fault in mine. Jesus didn't say it couldn't be done - He said it should be done first, before attempting to help another. And that's gonna take honesty & humility.
Honesty and humility.... huge key to all of this unraveling and discovering. The journey can't happen without this.
Frank,
Ahhhh MUSIC... my true escape... my solice. Yes... music therapy was a very large part of me re-discovering who I was/am.
Curmudgeon man,
Who are they really underneath the "bless yous" and the "I'm JUST believing for (whatever)", and the "I JUST know that God can do (whatever)"?
I think it'll take them some time to decompress, but how long is entirely dependant on who they really are, why they got involved in a flakey, deceptive, ....ty little cult to begin with, and what realization finally got them to leave.
thanks... I don't think I can add anything to this... this is the bottom line!
Having known this couple all the time I was in TWI ... I think this is the part that frightens me. Frightens because the 'people' I knew them as, were not necessarily 'NICE GUYS' ... they towed that company line...they lived/breathed that company line. They were the doulosos... they were willing and did all in the name of TWI to the detriment of most they came in contact with. They were determined to move ahead with the 'things of God' ... they wanted to LEAD LEAD LEAD and move up that ladder.
So I suppose I must be honest and say... I REALLY don't know these people and who they were before TWI got their clutches on them ... but rather what they became.
Hmmmmmm???? Had never thought of it that way.... Thanks.
I spent 13 years in twi. 1975 to 1987...was a WOW and in the corps...The last year I was involved, was a year of enlightenment and change...an evolution of thought. I began to realize that twi doctrine was wrong in many places and I began to hear stories of sexual escapades of top leaders...
...after the famous clergy meeting I knew it was time to leave twi. I knew that I was right and they were wrong...walked away and never looked back...twi doctrine seemed to drop off very quickly for me...my perspective now is quite different.
I started in TWI as a teen and got out when I was about 31 years old. It did take me quite a while for certain things that I thought I truly believed in to as George says, decompress. I went to therapy and got a therapist who used to be a catholic nun and seem to totally understand the bondage, thoughts that I had. She also told me that Greasespot was a good place to come for healing.
The great part is that I've remarried to someone that wasn't in TWI and I'm not any better than he is....
1) they believed what was taught -- but didn't like the way that the Way was being run in the sense of personalities and leadership behaviors
or
2) they left because their brains could no longer ignore the contradiction between what they saw and heard and what they read in scripture with what he Way told them they saw heard and read.
If it's 1 they haven't shed Way brain at all just looking for an improved version
If 2 then the likelyhood is that they will be more open to serious change in thoughts, actions, and social groups.
1) they believed what was taught -- but didn't like the way that the Way was being run in the sense of personalities and leadership behaviors
or
2) they left because their brains could no longer ignore the contradiction between what they saw and heard and what they read in scripture with what he Way told them they saw heard and read.
If it's 1 they haven't shed Way brain at all just looking for an improved version
If 2 then the likelyhood is that they will be more open to serious change in thoughts, actions, and social groups.
just my thoughts
I was a 1 - 2 combo.
I think I was lazy and prideful when I first heard about the bs at the clergy meeting. Then again, the information about the clergy meeting came filtered through the only clergy I knew personally at the time - and he apparently had a five-year plan of his own. I didn't dig any further.
So when the news about the clergy meeting hit our little branch, I decided to stay and try to help change things from within. Bad mistake. VERY bad mistake! I wish I had had the sense then to see through the bs and take a walk. I had done it before. Perhaps the difference for me was that I was newly married, and it seemed that without the ministry to justify and give structure and meaning to everything, the marriage seemed in danger of failure.
The loyalty letter came and I left - no questions asked.
Unfortunately I ended up helping to form a very small and insignificant offshoot after the loyalty letter. The aforementioned mini-MOG used the offshoot to garner money and "babes." (I found this out right before I was booted out.) When it all became more than evident that he was a scumbag - I had already gone through and seen the doctrinal error that I had helped to spread.
Don't get me wrong. Some of it was dealing with the hand I was dealt. I was naive.
I wasn't at all fully convinced that leaving was the only logical choice. It had become apparent that the mook-MOG was trying to "work smarter and not harder" while sucking in as much "abs" as he could get. There was a small group of us that once again wanted to instigate change from within. We wanted to out the dishonesty and force change. I was prideful enough to think that my staying would some how help and protect some of the people he was using.
Yea.. right... that went over real well. It was like trying to take a bone from a junkyard dog.
So in retrospect... my leaving was a long series of mis-steps and hesitations. "One step forward and two steps back" about best describes it, I guess.
I don't regret leaving. I do regret that I wasn't smarter about it all.
I guess now I should answer the question that is the title of the thread. :)
Will I ever be "de-Wayed"?
I hate what I see I was. I believe anyone can change if they put the effort forth; though I'm happy to say the "believe God for a parking spot" moments are long gone.
Not putting people in a box...
Not thinking that my way of seeing the world is the only right way...
Being able to admit I don't know... and possibly can't know or never will...
1) they believed what was taught -- but didn't like the way that the Way was being run in the sense of personalities and leadership behaviors
or
2) they left because their brains could no longer ignore the contradiction between what they saw and heard and what they read in scripture with what he Way told them they saw heard and read.
If it's 1 they haven't shed Way brain at all just looking for an improved version
If 2 then the likelyhood is that they will be more open to serious change in thoughts, actions, and social groups.
just my thoughts
Templelady,
I believe you have certainly hit the nail on the proverbial head here.
But, as far as these two individuals are concerned, I am not quite sure what their 'leaving' agenda might be. Like what Doojable wrote about, I could see these two starting their own thing up. But not sure.
Doojable,
A beautiful honest post. Thank you for taking the time and sharing all of this with us.
It is not easy to be honest and say that we were prideful or thinking that WE thought we could change things or that we remained for reasons like you mentioned about your marriage.
I know for myself and my husband, we didn't leave but rather, we got the boot in 1994. Devastation, unanswered questions and complete turmoil was what we lived for several years before I found GS and realized that the leaders that be at the time of our 'booting' were nothing but maniacal a$$holes.
To become "de-Wayed", one has to first realize they were "Wayed". The environment you choose when you leave will have a huge effect on your realization of the need for "de-Waying".
I tried offshoots when I first left because I wanted something familiar and comfortable. Once I realized they were not what I wanted, I hung out by myself for a few months. Then I decided to go to church. I went through many things in my mind. The trinity thing was really hard for me to see past.
Then I went to an all-women small group with the church. Seeing people living life and being real about their convictions instead of quoting PFAL or something else really made an impression on me. We would read book and discuss them with HONESTY. We didn't always agree, and I found that is perfectly OK.
I've become even more tolerant of other beliefs since my church experience. I don't cringe when someone says they worship a goddess. I don't cringe when someone says they are liberal. I can hear other things without thinking that I have THE answer, and I don't even have an urge to tell them "the truth".
I am OK not knowing all the answers and never knowing all the answers too.
1) they believed what was taught -- but didn't like the way that the Way was being run in the sense of personalities and leadership behaviors
or
2) they left because their brains could no longer ignore the contradiction between what they saw and heard and what they read in scripture with what he Way told them they saw heard and read.
If it's 1 they haven't shed Way brain at all just looking for an improved version
If 2 then the likelyhood is that they will be more open to serious change in thoughts, actions, and social groups.
just my thoughts
For me there is a third option. After the big split in '89, I was involved in a couple of splinter groups because I thought I was in category 1. But little by little I came to realize that the doctrine itself was at fault. It wasn't that there was a contradiction between their doctrine and their practice as in category 2. They taught that it doesn't matter what you do after you confess Rom 10:9, you're still saved. This led to wide-spread sin with a "Biblical" excuse. And there were other doctrines as well, that I gradually found were not Biblical, through a process of study and examination. I was gradually weaned from Way thinking, but still catch myself thinking some of the old cliches. It's an ongoing process, but not impossible.
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Ham
I dunno Ala.. well, for me.. I had to do "something" to burn my bridges to the old doctrine.. I won't say what it was here though..
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A la prochaine
Ham,
I agree...every journey is an individual one.
I think what I'm trying to get at is ... this couple have been 'submersed' in this doctrine for so long...they don't know who/what they are anymore. TWI morphed them into who they became and they obviously liked it in order for them to hang on as long as they did.
Yes, they will remove themselves from the problem... but the real problem actually lives within them...
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waysider
"Sowwy. I was dewayed."
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Mark Clarke
Be vewy, vewy quiet! I'm twacking bwanch weaders!
hahahahahahahah!
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rascal
Ala, some people never get past the way thinking.
I think that it depends on who/what you surround yourself with. If you hang around like minded people who support what you believe, you don`t see the need to change.
I don`t think that I would have ever changed if I had been any where near an off shoot. Most significant of all in my recovery were waydale and grease spot.
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polar bear
I agwee with you wittle Wascal-
Much depends on who you hang with.
Ya have to get out make new friends and start livin'.
Greasespot has helped me too.
It took a long time to get "way brained" it's gonna take some time to change.
But is it worth it?
Hell yeah.
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geisha779
What happens when things go bad? Someone is sick? Someones passes away? Job loss? Kid get's in trouble? Things don't run smoothly--marraige goes through a rough patch?
What happens when people in the real world--don't see the greatness of believing=recieving? Or, someone challenges them with reason and logic and they are completely unprepared to answer? Not everyone knows TWI's "Rightly divided gnostic gospel" or uses the bible as their authority to sin.
Will everyone outside the "Household" who disagrees with them be "possesed"? Devil Spirit influenced?
You can't live your life in a TWI vacuum, you just don't function well--at least not when confronted with the diverse society in which we find ourselves.
It was the 1980's when last they last probably lived in the "World". Big hair is gone--shoulder pads are "out" and the "Police" broke-up--Sting went solo!
For me, the transition into the world was a real challenge--- I think that is why many seek an offshoot. Maybe it is like a step-down program.
Can I just share a bit of what happened to me--it is how I look at the transition--as it is what I lived. I never planned it--it just unfolded this way. . . .
If they do seek a church for fellowship--that is a process. I went through many churches--never fitting in because I didn't adhere to the BASIC tenents of the Christian faith. I embarassed myself completely--challenging ministers--being argumentitive--wanting to show them the error of their beliefs.
Oddly enough--they didn't fall for it. After awhile, I gave up seeking church---I really didn't belong there--not being at odds with their faith.
I gave up on God for awhile.
I went to college. Amherst. Culture shock! It was the best thing I could have done. Met people I really liked--learned again, what it meant to accept someone without agreeing with their entire worldview. Changed my politics after seeing the same us vs them mentality.
Took a few classes at Smith College--Huge homosexual population--met people I had previously judged as evil--liked many of them and made FRIENDS!!
Mt. Holyoke College. Met older students like me--seeking to better their lives--made friends with WONDERFUL people of other faiths! Oh My!!
My kids helped as well, they had friends of other faiths-cultures-nationalities. I was confronted with diversity the more I put myself out there.
Learned a second language. ---really got into that--music, culture, lit. . . . that was fun. I had an illegal immigrant speaking partner from the Ivory Coast.
Went into her underground world where many hide from the government. What a network!!
Then I felt that old familar pull of God. Decided to really look at it ---instead of taking it on faith. I reasoned and weighed the
evidence for myself this time. Understood things I had just refused to see before. I started to fit in at church--sharing a common faith. Believing things for
myself--not afraid of "Devils" under every rock, I got to accept Christians--know them--LIKE them!! They are people with faults--just like me. :)
I stopped trying to keep myself from the world and all its influences--I learned to live in it peacefully while still adhering to my own world view.
So, all this didn't happen over night. I am still a Christian--just not a "Special Knowledge" elite super-hero with magic power, kind. I have a family--own a
home-- jobs----used to participate in local government.
It was not an easy process--each step stripped me of WAY think. I was not in nearly 30 years.
Hubby was in longer than me. . . . and his journey was a bit different. We had a young Christian friend--whom hubby knew well--He died a tragic death at 23 years old. That had a huge impact on evaluating things. This young man, Sean, was truly an awesome servant of God. We watched his family grieve with such grace--putting the gospel out there and still praising God--not confused by their lack of believing or where the hedge of protection went. No talk of blame--or leaving the household. They had faith and dignity.
You don't just walk out one day and say--all better. Look where we have all landed? Different lives--beliefs--ethics. . .
So, given my own experience--I think they will for awhile--walk around in a TWI fog. But, I hope for them--a few rough seas to strip them of it--and bring them back to a life with joy--happiness--and yes--sorrow and some pain. It is all part of the big picture--it is called living!!
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cheranne
Yes, there is hope but it's that root canal that is painful! Once you uproot the way tree(in your life)it gets
better and better each day,you see clearer and life is good!
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Bramble
I think alot depends on where their lives go after they leave. If they slide into a splinter group fellowship that is comfortable they might not feel a need to branch out to churches etc and not change much.
When we (in 20 years for me, longer for hubby) left, we had good relationships still with my family, though not with hubby's. So somewhere in the back of our minds through our TWI years we had knowledge that people outside TWI could be 'okay' even while giving the nod to TWI's isolation doctrine.
Hubby also retained a friendship from his youth outside TWI as did I. Those connections were so important when we initially left, since we were so isolated in the town we lived in--our every activity except work had been TWI, all our friends were TWI and the cut off of M&A was abrupt.
They gave us glimpses of what real people are like, people with friends and interests, hobbies, plans, goals, none of which involved saving for the next Adance Class special or the next branch meeting or cleaning the limb home.
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RainbowsGirl
I was in for 25 years. It is very difficult to recover from such interwoven entanglements of good and bad.
I came to GRSC the end of January 2007 and stayed until November
2007. I came back this last June or July.
The last 10 years after being marked and avoided because I would not give up my specially abled son to better
serve GOD, to attend all functions and classes and to go Corpse was when I discovered GRSC. I was shocked,
amazed and deeply hurt for myself and all the the victims of TWI to find out the hidden agendas that lied
unknown to me in the underbelly of TWI. Before I came here I had read information on a wide variety of off-
shoot sites and the POP.
I didn't know what to believe even though some of the pieces that puzzled me started to fit together.
I had done everything that I possibly could. I took all the classes, we went "wow" Josh even with a 2 minute
attention span sat through all the class and spoke in tongues as prescribed....on his own and does on his own
even now at times.
We did everything that we could possibly do and were still becoming more and more the reject ables. Too needy
and too unavailable to service the cause. Same standard that the world holds was being applied under a
different guise that I knew was wrong. Just because we were members of TWI did not necessarily mean that all
our former fears and prejudices could not rear their ugly heads at our own wills
These were many of the people that I had believed prayed for Josh when He was born and 4 month's later had
kidney surgery . The doctor said in the middle of the surgery that he had removed the damaged kidney, but
thought it was impossible to repair and to attach the other one.
I prayed that GOD would fix it because I knew our whole branch was praying for Josh and they knew how to
believe so I asked GOD to save him. I told that brilliant, brilliant surgeon to go back in and do whatever he
could and should do and that GOD would do the rest. He looked at me like I had blown His mind and somewhat
compassionately too. After 4 months waiting for Josh to breathe on his own. I knew GOD would not let Him die.
Many of You may not understand this, but in a great many ways my experiences with and in TWI were really
unique. I understand that all of our experiences in anything are uniquely our own in understanding and
perspective. Each of our views of TWI are so intertwined with the people we spend those years with.
The differences that were mainly unique to me were that I was in TWI near the beginning when perhaps
VPW's intents and actions were not fully skewed and far less known at my level or in my area.
When I was witnessed too by D@l0res Dere$ha, Micheal Dur*nce, and Ted J%ck$on, I was a Flower
Child/Cocktail Waitress running a popcorn wagon for a friend in my open evenings. It was in a 60's type drug
using, free love style neighborhood The people were kinda gaudy running around with glittered sheets on,
smelling of incense, patchily and weed a searching culture...an extended remnant of the die-hard Hippie culture
of the 60's.
They D.D, M.D. and T.J. were so loving and kind to me. They would visit there and walk me home and carry
my small TV up 6 to 8 flights of stairs for me many a night. They knew that I didn't feel entirely safe there and
did not subscribe to the drugs and free love part of that culture and society.
They had invited me to their Fellowship and meetings and I went to some. I was kind of scared of them too as
all my life I had seen GOD's hand present over and over rescuing and protecting me; so I only wanted to know
the truth about him. I was afraid of them because they seemed so interested in me. I wasn't used to that.
Several times I asked them point blank what they wanted and why the came??? I never really gave them my
full attention; I was always daydreaming or lost in my own thoughts categorizing, analyzing and sorting life's
anomalies. Of course, I really didn't know the norms from the anomalies either...but I thought extensively on it
all! A lot of the rest of the time I was lost in music and my friends; until the following event!
One day T.J. had asked me to come to a picnic or something of that sort. I said that I would come and He had
arranged to pick me up. He came as he had said he would. He climbed all those stairs and knocked on my
door. Me, :( I pretended I wasn't home. I was scared to go and equally ashamed that I was hiding from such
truly genuinely loving and kind people who in fact were also seeking to know GOD and His word truly with
innocence and purity.
T.J went all the way back to the event several miles away. To my amazement He tried again about an hour
later. He came back all that way for me. He had gone so many extra miles both literally and figuratively, it
spoke volumes to my heart.
I was so taken by His love, His honesty and His integrity concerning GOD and His Word that I was convinced to
fellowship with them. That was my entrance into TWI.
Shortly after I took the class and I went to my first ROA's. It was still in Lima.
We went in J#rry #lg#r's (I think that was His name anyway) car an old beater. No real preparations, just real
heart and desire to be there! We collectively had no money for gas, no tents or camping gear and very little
money to eat on. How did we get there??? I have no other explanation but that GOD somehow decided to
rescue us and get us there! We never broke down or ran out of gas and when we arrived immediately we were
invited in and given places to stay throughout the entire ROA's It was as advertised like heaven on earth. All I
met the were generously loving, GOD hungry people.
Now to answer Your questions as best that I can Ala:
My question is...
I wonder if leaving TWI will really change things for them?
[b]Somethings will change! The more I sort out , grow and learn. Somethings don't need to change, not ever thing was wrong. Their agenda was wrong and the twisting of the Word was wrong and their despicable abuses were indeed wrong. The genuine love and heart of the many seeking God's true Word and heart was not wrong[/b]
Will they still walk down the street and believe God for it to not rain because they're shopping that day?
No not in this manner; but I will always believe in prayer and signs wonders and miracles; and that they are still available to us all, as GOD is!
Will they still believe that they have been taught the greatest truths anyone has ever known since before the 1st century church?
Somewhat, possibly because the things that were godly from GOD's word do not change; and they were not all on their doctrinal agendas or all being twisted
Will they despise church goers and believe that those who do are sad sad sad pathetic peons being used by the seed boy himself ... the pope?
NO, It was the genuine People's hearts and love that drew me nearer to GOD. Some people in TWI never believed that or a lot of their other doctrines..We knew we weren't allowed to
question them. Being part of something does not always mean that You willingly accept all of it
Will they believe that revelation is right there for them to listen to that still small voice in order to know where to find that bathroom in the dept store?
No, I think many of us want only to hear the genuine still small voice of GOD as it is intended by GOD and His Word to be
All those years that we were encased and intertwinedtogether with genuinely good and godly people and some very bad and devious people, a great many varied lessens were learned. It is a big thing to sort out and untangle from it all.
I will keep the good memories and heal from the old disfunctional ones, along with my old disfunctions one that
I brought with me into TWI. I will use more wisdom; I don't know whether or not I would
have sought out GOD without them; the people I willalways love from TWI. GOD's foreknowledge of my life tells me He was there and that He knew I
would survive it, glean from it and move on!
Inquiring minds want to know.....
edited to correct grammar and add
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T-Bone
I think there's always hope in de-Waying the mind, if one is aware of the problem. I've heard it said To articulate the problem means it's halfway solved. And something I picked up from an old Christian Counseling seminar Investigate, Isolate, Eliminate, which sorta goes along the lines of the first quip.
Considering my own experience of unraveling 12 years of an entangling TWI-mindset - this whole de-Waying process can get very complicated and tedious on some issues. And some of it isn't so easy to identify - cuz going into TWI, I brought in whatever personal dysfunctionality with me - which compounds the problem. I wanna tell ya, the cognitive distortions of the TWI-mindset and depression are not a good mix! :(
On the topic of de-Waying - I often think about the point of self-examination Jesus made in Matthew 7. I can't help anyone else deal with the little splinter of a fault in their perception if I don't first address the huge plank of a fault in mine. Jesus didn't say it couldn't be done - He said it should be done first, before attempting to help another. And that's gonna take honesty & humility.
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frank123lol
I would say,I always had my music to go to,someway to escape "wayworld for a while,That and work,having friends.
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George Aar
I think for them, it all depends on them.
Who are they really underneath the "bless yous" and the "I'm JUST believing for (whatever)", and the "I JUST know that God can do (whatever)"?
I think it'll take them some time to decompress, but how long is entirely dependant on who they really are, why they got involved in a flakey, deceptive, $hitty little cult to begin with, and what realization finally got them to leave.
For me, it doesn't seem like it really took all that long. But then, I was never the "sold out dulous", "The Way Corps or DEATH" kinda Wayfer. I always felt uncomfortable doing the Wayfer rituals ("manifestations", leading songs, stringing chairs, and - above all - WITNESSING), so leaving was actually quite a relief for me. That being said, I carried a lot of baggage till I stumbled upon WayDale. Then the catharsis of multiple postings everyday for a few months really did me a world of good.
And now, I really don't feel anything about WayWorld. I mean, I still deeply regret ever getting involved with the stupid "MLM for Jesus", just for the utterly wasted years that I'll never get back. But as far as residual WayBrain, I think I pretty well licked that many years ago. There's just none of that groupthink left in me. In fact, I have trouble even remembering what the "company line" was on so many subjects now. Of course, the possibility does exist that that's a symptom of another ill - AGING, but let's not go there, 'kay?
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Tzaia
I've been "de-Wayed" long enough to see my part in getting "Wayed."
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A la prochaine
Hello everyone,
Thank you all who've taken the time to respond....
I've read all the posts and find them all very informative and very perceptive.
There are a few wonderful quotes I'd love to bring up:
Rascallion,
Amen sista'
I said many times that learning what I learnt here on GS put those mysterious floating puzzle pieces together and created the real picture of what TWI's agenda was all about. For years I suspected it...but had no real evidence except of course, for the damage to my soul and to others'.
Polar Boy,
I so agree with you. Those who think they can walk away and think it's 'all gone' are in a heap of trouble in my opinion. they are certainly not being honest with themselves. It's almost like they think they put a certain shirt on and the next day, put on a different shirt and that that somehow changes the person wearing the shirt. It just doesn't work like that.
Geisha,
:lol: Thanks for the chuckle.In your post I felt you explained many many different avenues to recovery;
You went to church and did what you did and realized it was the wrong approach.
You went back to school to better yourself.
You engaged yourself with situations and people you would have in the past ruled out completely.
You returned to church and realized that Christians are people too.
You and your husband observed the loss of a young man and the way the family dealt with their loss. The way you described this and compared it to how it would have been handled within those retched walls of Zion in TWI was incredibly revealing.
All in all... having done and experienced so many avenues, I believe, helped you to become a more rounded individual who is able to be open to all persons and like you said:
Thank you for taking the time to write all this. It was wonderful and I so appreciate it.
Bramble,
I believe that makes all the difference!....
Years ago, I remember reading about a wonderful drug-rehab program developed by a social worker in Calgary Alberta. The details are sketchy, but I'll do my best to tell you what I remember.
It had enormous success and had won awards in its field. It was a very different approach compared to most drug re-hab programs in that the first thing was that the rehab centre was located in one of suburbs of Calgary and not in the downtown core of the city where most of the drug addicts lived. The philosophy behind this was to get them out of their 'comfort' zone. Away from the addicts, street kids, drug pushers...their temptations.
Another aspect of the program was... if they came to the centre, they would be given 25$ for having solely come out, but they had to promise to come back the next week and at that time would be given 15$ each visit. Now the social worker said they knew that for many ... the first time they'd come would be solely to get the money in order to pay for their habit. The next time...maybe it would be as well...but each time they would come they'd be out of their environmental comfort zone and spending less and less time with their 'cronies'. At the end the 'user' would start to see another life outside of their street life. They'd see that there was 'life' outside the downtown sleazy area. More and more the addict would spend longer and longer time at the center rather than rushing back to their life on the street. The program was and I hope is still one of the most successful programs of its sort.
So I do agree that slipping into another VP associated offshoot cult is about the worse thing you could do for yourself.
Rainbow Girl,
Thanks for telling your story. It is genuinely a sad sad story when situations like yours and your son would arise in TWI and TWI would want to shun them..treat you like outcasts. There is absolutely NO excuse for this NONE. It is evil, pure evil. It is human nature at its worse.
T-bone,
I loved your quote from Matthew 7
Honesty and humility.... huge key to all of this unraveling and discovering. The journey can't happen without this.
Frank,
Ahhhh MUSIC... my true escape... my solice. Yes... music therapy was a very large part of me re-discovering who I was/am.
Curmudgeon man,
thanks... I don't think I can add anything to this... this is the bottom line!
Having known this couple all the time I was in TWI ... I think this is the part that frightens me. Frightens because the 'people' I knew them as, were not necessarily 'NICE GUYS' ... they towed that company line...they lived/breathed that company line. They were the doulosos... they were willing and did all in the name of TWI to the detriment of most they came in contact with. They were determined to move ahead with the 'things of God' ... they wanted to LEAD LEAD LEAD and move up that ladder.
So I suppose I must be honest and say... I REALLY don't know these people and who they were before TWI got their clutches on them ... but rather what they became.
Hmmmmmm???? Had never thought of it that way.... Thanks.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I spent 13 years in twi. 1975 to 1987...was a WOW and in the corps...The last year I was involved, was a year of enlightenment and change...an evolution of thought. I began to realize that twi doctrine was wrong in many places and I began to hear stories of sexual escapades of top leaders...
...after the famous clergy meeting I knew it was time to leave twi. I knew that I was right and they were wrong...walked away and never looked back...twi doctrine seemed to drop off very quickly for me...my perspective now is quite different.
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vickles
I started in TWI as a teen and got out when I was about 31 years old. It did take me quite a while for certain things that I thought I truly believed in to as George says, decompress. I went to therapy and got a therapist who used to be a catholic nun and seem to totally understand the bondage, thoughts that I had. She also told me that Greasespot was a good place to come for healing.
The great part is that I've remarried to someone that wasn't in TWI and I'm not any better than he is....
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templelady
I think that the big question is
did they leave because
1) they believed what was taught -- but didn't like the way that the Way was being run in the sense of personalities and leadership behaviors
or
2) they left because their brains could no longer ignore the contradiction between what they saw and heard and what they read in scripture with what he Way told them they saw heard and read.
If it's 1 they haven't shed Way brain at all just looking for an improved version
If 2 then the likelyhood is that they will be more open to serious change in thoughts, actions, and social groups.
just my thoughts
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outintexas
That was funny!
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doojable
I was a 1 - 2 combo.
I think I was lazy and prideful when I first heard about the bs at the clergy meeting. Then again, the information about the clergy meeting came filtered through the only clergy I knew personally at the time - and he apparently had a five-year plan of his own. I didn't dig any further.
So when the news about the clergy meeting hit our little branch, I decided to stay and try to help change things from within. Bad mistake. VERY bad mistake! I wish I had had the sense then to see through the bs and take a walk. I had done it before. Perhaps the difference for me was that I was newly married, and it seemed that without the ministry to justify and give structure and meaning to everything, the marriage seemed in danger of failure.
The loyalty letter came and I left - no questions asked.
Unfortunately I ended up helping to form a very small and insignificant offshoot after the loyalty letter. The aforementioned mini-MOG used the offshoot to garner money and "babes." (I found this out right before I was booted out.) When it all became more than evident that he was a scumbag - I had already gone through and seen the doctrinal error that I had helped to spread.
Don't get me wrong. Some of it was dealing with the hand I was dealt. I was naive.
I wasn't at all fully convinced that leaving was the only logical choice. It had become apparent that the mook-MOG was trying to "work smarter and not harder" while sucking in as much "abs" as he could get. There was a small group of us that once again wanted to instigate change from within. We wanted to out the dishonesty and force change. I was prideful enough to think that my staying would some how help and protect some of the people he was using.
Yea.. right... that went over real well. It was like trying to take a bone from a junkyard dog.
So in retrospect... my leaving was a long series of mis-steps and hesitations. "One step forward and two steps back" about best describes it, I guess.
I don't regret leaving. I do regret that I wasn't smarter about it all.
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doojable
I guess now I should answer the question that is the title of the thread. :)
Will I ever be "de-Wayed"?
I hate what I see I was. I believe anyone can change if they put the effort forth; though I'm happy to say the "believe God for a parking spot" moments are long gone.
Not putting people in a box...
Not thinking that my way of seeing the world is the only right way...
Being able to admit I don't know... and possibly can't know or never will...
These are bigger issues to me now.
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A la prochaine
Templelady,
I believe you have certainly hit the nail on the proverbial head here.
But, as far as these two individuals are concerned, I am not quite sure what their 'leaving' agenda might be. Like what Doojable wrote about, I could see these two starting their own thing up. But not sure.
Doojable,
A beautiful honest post. Thank you for taking the time and sharing all of this with us.
It is not easy to be honest and say that we were prideful or thinking that WE thought we could change things or that we remained for reasons like you mentioned about your marriage.
I know for myself and my husband, we didn't leave but rather, we got the boot in 1994. Devastation, unanswered questions and complete turmoil was what we lived for several years before I found GS and realized that the leaders that be at the time of our 'booting' were nothing but maniacal a$$holes.
Keep those posts coming...
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Nottawayfer
To become "de-Wayed", one has to first realize they were "Wayed". The environment you choose when you leave will have a huge effect on your realization of the need for "de-Waying".
I tried offshoots when I first left because I wanted something familiar and comfortable. Once I realized they were not what I wanted, I hung out by myself for a few months. Then I decided to go to church. I went through many things in my mind. The trinity thing was really hard for me to see past.
Then I went to an all-women small group with the church. Seeing people living life and being real about their convictions instead of quoting PFAL or something else really made an impression on me. We would read book and discuss them with HONESTY. We didn't always agree, and I found that is perfectly OK.
I've become even more tolerant of other beliefs since my church experience. I don't cringe when someone says they worship a goddess. I don't cringe when someone says they are liberal. I can hear other things without thinking that I have THE answer, and I don't even have an urge to tell them "the truth".
I am OK not knowing all the answers and never knowing all the answers too.
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Mark Clarke
For me there is a third option. After the big split in '89, I was involved in a couple of splinter groups because I thought I was in category 1. But little by little I came to realize that the doctrine itself was at fault. It wasn't that there was a contradiction between their doctrine and their practice as in category 2. They taught that it doesn't matter what you do after you confess Rom 10:9, you're still saved. This led to wide-spread sin with a "Biblical" excuse. And there were other doctrines as well, that I gradually found were not Biblical, through a process of study and examination. I was gradually weaned from Way thinking, but still catch myself thinking some of the old cliches. It's an ongoing process, but not impossible.
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