On the way topic,this subject came up.incoruptble seed,seems some are saying
you can lose your salvation.I personaly do not believe this,what are others take on this?
I know twi used this as a magical shield to do any dam2 thing they wanted to do.
No--I do not think that one who is saved can lose their salvation. If it were up to me or any of us---yes we could lose our salvation. I am beyond thankful that God's sovereign will is not undone by man.
The God who would allow this is unrecognizable to me.
If we could lose it--none would be saved. God is able to keep us in the faith.
It all comes down to who you think Jesus is.
BTW--NOT an accepted orthodox theology. There ARE warning passages to the visible church.
To say one can lose one's salvation assumes that one has salvation in the first place. The whole argument depends on your definition of what salvation is. In TWI we were taught that once you were "saved" it didn't matter what you did, you were still saved. This idea led to rampant sin, because we were taught that the new birth is a permanent seed you could not lose. This was all based on a misunderstanding of I Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." But this verse tells us that it is the seed that is incorruptible, not the person who receives it.
Our understanding of the New Birth should be understood in light of Jesus' words. I wrote about it in detail in an article about the New Birth on my website, but here is an excerpt:
Too often the words of Jesus are interpreted in light of the later New Testament writers instead of the other way around. It is important that we understand the words of Peter, James, John and Paul in light of the Master. It is his words which are the standard for interpretation of the rest of the New Testament. Jesus Christ’s words, "You must be born again" are well known, but his other references to the new birth are often forgotten. He said the new birth was so vitally important that one could not see the Kingdom of God without it (John 3:1). But of the four Gospels, John’s is the only one that uses the phrase "born again." How could something so important not be mentioned in the other Gospels? The fact is, Jesus did speak of it, but he used other terms.
Jesus identified the new birth as being essential for entering the Kingdom of God in John 3. In the key parable of the sower and the seed, Jesus likewise states that salvation is dependent on receiving the word.
Mark 4:
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
Luke 8:
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Mark and Luke point out that if one does not receive the seed, which is the Word, they don’t get "converted" or "saved." Matthew even more specifically defines what the seed is.
Matthew 13:
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
The seed that the sower sows is the Word of God, which is the Word of the Kingdom. The devil steals that word away from those who do not receive it, like the seed by the wayside. Others receive the word and retain it for a short time, but fall away when tribulation or persecution arises, like the seed on stony ground with no roots. Some others receive the word but are distracted by cares and riches of this world, like the seed on the thorny ground. The last category is those who receive the seed on good ground and bear fruit. This parable is considered by Jesus to be the foundation of all the other parables ("Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?" - Mark 4:13). It presents the foundational truth of how to be saved, or have eternal life, which begins with the intelligent reception of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. The references to being born of seed in the epistles are to be understood in this light. The seed is the Gospel of the Kingdom, and believing that Gospel is the key to eternal life and the new birth.
Since the seed which we receive is the Word which is incorruptible, the question arises, can one lose this seed? We were taught that it was like the seed of our earthly father, in that even if I was not in fellowship with him, his seed was still in me, and I was still his son. However, the Bible does not teach this. There are a number of verses which refer to the conditional nature of this new birth (I Corinthians 10:1-12; 15:1-2; II Timothy 2:12-13; II Peter 1:10; Hebrews 3:12-14; 6:11). We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. But we must continue in that faith until the end. If we do not continue in the faith, the Word which is working in us will not remain in our hearts. This becomes easier to understand when you realize that the seed is the Word and not a "new birth seed" that is in you unconditionally, regardless of what you do afterward. I wrote about this in more detail in an article about Once Saved Always Saved on my website.
You say "by one parable the seed is the word." TWI said by one verse the seed is incorruptible. I don't think that's the way to understand the Bible either.
The New Birth is based on "seed" in other scriptures too. John refers to being "begotten by the Father" in his epistles, and states that God's seed is in a person in I John 3:9. But what is that seed? The previously mentioned I Peter 1:23 says that we are born again "by the Word of God" and James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth..."
Also, while it may be only "one parable," Jesus said it was the most important one, and that if we didn't understand it we wouldn't understand any of the others. And he likens the planting of the Word to sowing seed and uses other agricultural analogies to describe both the growth in an individual and the growth of the Church. And if the parable of the sower's seed isn't talking about new birth, then Jesus never mentions the concept anywhere in the synoptic gospels. You have to connect the sower's seed with his mention of being born again in John. There are many aspects to this, more than just the one parable. (Have you read the article I linked to?)
But the biggest problem is that other than I Peter 1:23, TWI never cited any Scripture to prove that you could not lose your salvation. They just appealed to the "logic" that if I always have my earthly father's seed in me, how could God not do as good a job? But that logic is not in the Bible. Following are a couple of excerpts from what I wrote on my site:
I Corinthians 10:1-14 tells about how the children of Israel turned to idolatry so soon after being delivered out of Egypt. Just as they could turn away, we are warned of the same possibility. The whole purpose for Paul bringing up their example is given in verses 11 & 12, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore [for this reason] let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
Chapter 15 of I Corinthians also uses conditional language in verses 1 & 2. "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved [literally "you are being saved"], if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." In one sense we are already saved, because of Christ’s completed work. But in another sense we are "being saved" - an ongoing process. It will be completed when Christ returns and we are granted immortality. But it is not unconditional; it says "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you..." The NASB words it, "...if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." There is nothing in the Bible that says that one could never reject salvation once it has been given. We must continue to hold fast to our faith.
Paul uses similar language in other passages as well. I Thessalonians 3:8 says, "For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord," implying that he will be unhappy if they do not stand fast. II Timothy 2:12-13 says, "if we suffer ["endure," according to most other English versions], we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
Peter also speaks of the possibility of falling. "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (II Peter 1:10). If we are exhorted to give diligence to make it sure, so that we don’t fall, then it must be possible for our calling and election to be unsure. God is sure, of course, but if we turn away from Him by our free will, He doesn’t force us. Hebrews 6:11 says, "And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end." The fact that the writer desires this shows that it is possible not to show the same diligence, and therefore not remain faithful till the end.
Keeping the faith is not salvation by works, though. It is always by grace through faith. However, we must be diligent to maintain that faith in the face of the adversities around us which are constantly tempting us to forsake our faith. The Christian life is like a race ("Let us run with patience the race that is set before us" - Hebrews 12:1; "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" - Romans 13:11). We must continue and not faint, looking unto the goal. It is not how we begin the race, but how we end it that counts.
People who believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved" take offence at the notion that a Christian could "lose their salvation." However, the Bible doesn’t refer to losing one’s salvation, because although we are being saved through the Gospel now, the ultimate end of salvation is described as something that will come with the return of Christ.
Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Philippians 2:
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
I Thessalonians 5:
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
II Timothy 2:
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Hebrews 1:
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Hebrews 9:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
I Peter 1:
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I Peter 1:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Revelation 12:
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
So when someone turns away, he is not said to "lose" his salvation, since salvation is not something that he has yet. When we believe the Gospel, we receive the Word in our hearts, and the spirit begins a regenerating process. This process will result in eternal life in the Age to Come. We have the incorruptible seed, which is the Word (I Peter 1:23), but it doesn’t say that WE are incorruptible.
I Peter 1:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
We hold that Word, the Gospel, in our hearts, and it is the seed (as Jesus spoke of in the parable of the sower) which grows and bears fruit in us. Ultimately we will be given eternal life at the resurrection, but until then, there is no unconditional guarantee that a person will enter the Kingdom just because he had one moment of faith. He must continue in that faith, and hold it steadfast till the end.
In the same chapter in which John spoke of the "antichrists" who "went out from us, but were not of us" he gave the exhortation, "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life" (I John 2:24-25). Again, we see the condition, if the Gospel remains in you, you shall continue, and the promise (which we have not yet received) is eternal life.
Hebrews 3:12-14 again warns of departing from God, not just having never really been His to begin with.
Hebrews 3:
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
This is an important warning that we should express to our brethren so they don’t get deceived, or become complacent and think that steadfast faith until the end is not required as long as they believed once.
TWI was into CHEAP GRACE, which allowed rampant sin indeed. I personally do not believe that one can lose the salvation of the spirit. I say this because I am a trichotomist. I do believe that one can lose ONE'S SOUL. The Lord Jesus definitely stated that this was a possibility. He didn't use the word SPIRIT. I think that sometimes when people wonder if they can lose their salvation, they confuse spirit and soul and think that the two are the one and the same. I do not personally believe this to be true. There are three different Greek words for spirit, soul and body. If the Lord had wanted to mean the same meaning for all three, He would have to use only one word and not three. I think perhaps the loss of rewards not salvation is what people are thinking about, but they list is as salvation. We will stand and be judged before the Lord Jesus Christ for all the works that were done in our bodies and the words that we spoke.
TWI was into CHEAP GRACE, which allowed rampant sin indeed. I personally do not believe that one can lose the salvation of the spirit. I say this because I am a trichotomist. I do believe that one can lose ONE'S SOUL. The Lord Jesus definitely stated that this was a possibility. He didn't use the word SPIRIT. I think that sometimes when people wonder if they can lose their salvation, they confuse spirit and soul and think that the two are the one and the same. I do not personally believe this to be true. There are three different Greek words for spirit, soul and body. If the Lord had wanted to mean the same meaning for all three, He would have to use only one word and not three.
This is another of those TWI doctrines that we accepted without checking out, because we didn't know any better. It is ironic that TWI, who was so big on figures of speech, couldn't see the use of different words for the same thing in some cases, or one word having more than one meaning in other cases.
That whole doctrine about man losing his spirit when he sinned, and being only two parts until he gets born again, is not accurate, if you study out the meanings of these words. Man does not "have" a soul, so much as man "is" a soul. Gen. 2:7 tells us that God breathed into man the breath (or 'spirit') of life, and man became a living soul. The primary usage of "soul" is "a living creature." In a secondary sense, man is sometimes said to "have soul" in the sense of having life, but it is not in the sense of the soul being a separate part of man.
And the word for "spirit" is not limited to "the spirit of God," but is used to refer to the "breath of life" that makes man alive, as well. But it isn't the "real me" as TWI used to teach. (See this article for more detail.) To "lose your soul," as Jesus put it, meant to lose your whole being, not just lose one part of you. And the holy spirit is God's spirit, not "my spirit" (see this article for more detail). So there is a real danger of losing your soul, i.e., your whole self.
I think perhaps the loss of rewards not salvation is what people are thinking about, but they list is as salvation. We will stand and be judged before the Lord Jesus Christ for all the works that were done in our bodies and the words that we spoke.
This is another misunderstanding. The whole thing about losing only rewards but not losing your life is based on a misinterpretation of I Cor. 3:9-15. In that chapter, Paul is talking about planting the Word and building on the foundation of the Gospel that others may have started. If a man’s work (of planting the Gospel) is destroyed, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved. It is talking about the work of building a Church body. It’s not talking about the works a person does in his life after he is saved, and whether or not they affect his salvation. TWI took this out of context.
As I pointed out in my previous posts, "salvation" is not something we fully have yet, so the Bible does say anything about "losing your salvation." But it does speak of turning back from God and not continuing in the faith. But it was the Way's idea of "cheap grace," as you so aptly called it, that said we would still be "saved" no matter what we did later, as long as we had a moment of faith at one time.
You guys probably could talk rings around me,Grace,twi,should we continue in sin that grace may abound?
that was thier motto,If that is cheap grace.For the rest of us,we did our utmost to keep the scriptures,
I certainly did not live the lifestyle of twi top leadership,had I known,I would have left.
I am glad for your ideas,dont think i agree with them,Have read enough of bullinger,to agree with him.
Alot of people read this information,let them decide,to me religion is like a poptart,if you do not like
one flavor,go try another.
I have been jaundiced by twi,that I will never be a part of a church or organization.Iwill be the first to tell you to fly a kite,if you do not like it.At least I know where you are coming from,I reserve my comments on whether I think you are right.God will judge all of us,still working on where jesus fits in,I know he is my
brother,you know,heirs of god,joint hiers with jesus.Peace all
Still think I got eternal life,That is the only thing that has kept me going all these years,Remember,
Jesus in the desert?Devil tried to get him to consider his birthright,calling,He does it to us every single day.
Just for clarity, I didn't say we are "not saved" - I said that it is not complete yet. I Peter 1:3-9 refers to the past reality of Christ’s resurrection, the hope reserved in heaven of a future inheritance, and the present state of being kept by God’s power through faith, unto the future salvation. There are past, present, and future aspects of our salvation. In I Corinthians 1:18 and II Corinthians 2:15, where it says we "are saved" it is actually a participal in Greek and better translated, we "are being saved," as it is rendered in more modern versions.
When we believe the Gospel, we receive the Word in our hearts, and the spirit begins a regenerating process. This process, when complete, will result in eternal life in the Age to Come. We have the incorruptible seed, which is the Word (I Peter 1:23), but it doesn’t say that WE are incorruptible. Like in the parable of the good seed, we could get distracted by cares or pleasures, or choked by pressures. We could even be deceived by false teachers. We must make sure that the seed grows and bears fruit. It is an ongoing process, and we are told that some will depart from the faith. When someone does turn away, he is not said to "lose" his salvation, since salvation is not something that he fully has yet. This is why we are exhorted to continue in faith until the end.
If you believe it is a permanent seed that you can't ever lose, then what do you make of the conditional "if" statements and warnings to keep the faith in the following verses?
I Cor. 10:
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
I Cor. 15:
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
I Tim. 4:
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
II Tim. 2:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Hebrews 3:
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 6:
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
II Peter 1:
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
I John 2:
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
This is an important warning that we should express to our brethren so they don’t get deceived, or become complacent and think that steadfast faith until the end is not required as long as they believed once. We are saved by grace through faith, but not a one-time moment of faith. We must continue in the faith until the end when our salvation will be complete.
We could get into a whole discussion about Dispensationalism, but that would be getting way off topic. Besides, I think it's already been done here in other threads. If anyone is interested, here is what I wrote about it on my web site:
Mark,You do seem to have an agenda,I asked I know,That is what greasespot is about,discussing stuff you never could around twi.For that I am grateful.Peace
know ye not that you were bought with a price for you are not your own-The price paid to a Holy God was the shed blood of His own Son. Knowing that you are not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood as of a lamb unblemished and spotless the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory so that your faith and hope are in God.
Awesome video, Geisha. Thanks! Were those scenes from The Passion of the Christ?
It's because God and His Son did so much for us that when someone turns away and no longer believes it, what more can God do?
Frank,
My only agenda is to get people to stop and think and look at the Bible, and not just blindly accept what they were taught. To assume that one could believe once, and later turn away and no longer believe, and have that be OK, to me cheapens the work that Jesus did. And more importantly, it contradicts those Scriptures that I listed in my previous post.
On the way topic,this subject came up.incoruptble seed,seems some are saying
you can lose your salvation.I personaly do not believe this,what are others take on this?
I know twi used this as a magical shield to do any dam2 thing they wanted to do.
I don't know that twi used this "as a magical shield to do any dam2 thing they wanted.." because they also taught about loss of rewards as a tangible loss for eternity as a consequence of living in very specific sin as warned in the scriptures.
I agree with you that one cannot lose their salvation. It is quite simple. Being born again means being born "from above". That life born from above is eternal life, it cannot die. The new man is eternal.
Awesome video, Geisha. Thanks! Were those scenes from The Passion of the Christ?
It's because God and His Son did so much for us that when someone turns away and no longer believes it, what more can God do?
Frank,
My only agenda is to get people to stop and think and look at the Bible, and not just blindly accept what they were taught. To assume that one could believe once, and later turn away and no longer believe, and have that be OK, to me cheapens the work that Jesus did. And more importantly, it contradicts those Scriptures that I listed in my previous post.
Hi Mark,
Yes the scences were from "The Passion". I am so glad you enjoyed it--because I posted it just for you. Your question begs answers that run so deeply as to be virtually impossible to address here on a forum. One of the reasons I won't engage you is because I can see how very sold-out and deeply immersed you are in your new faith.
Having been in a cult and ridden that high of special knowledge--I know from experience--you think I blindly accept what I was taught. You appear to feel you now have a 'right' understanding. Your posts often use the word "Misunderstanding" when you set forth your interpretation of scripture. You used "blindly accept" in the above quote. It is a neon sign to me Mark.
What if you are seeing through an aberrant lens?
Were I to tell you that your blindness of those very scriptures you quote comes from your 'misunderstanding' of who Jesus is--. Would you for a second seriously consider my words? If I told you that they are actually speaking of you--would you hear me? Or would you pity me as misguided and try to explain to me how to see the Hebraic understanding?
I know that you believe you have found the truth. You came from one cult that denied that Jesus--So did Anthony Buzzard. You found another cult where you are comfortable--as it holds the same doctrine. It is just dressed differently. More scholary.
Your new faith finds itself on many lists that include the Church of God--and The Way International--that is why I call it a cult. But, when I was in TWI--lists written by Christian watchmen--didn't matter--they were wrong. In reality--they were right.
The few things I can do for you are pray and direct you to some sound Christian teachers. Since you seem impressed with the scholarly aspect of teaching--I would direct you to Ravi Zacharias--who teaches at Oxford. R.C.Sprouls is another scholarly man you could listen to. In fact Mark, you may even be able to contact these men and meet them--sit down with them and speak to them. They were never in a cult--and they never denied Jesus.
When you ask "What more can God do?" It screams to me--he doesn't know Him--How can He not know that God is able, how can he not know who the ones who turn away really are?
Mark, you need to ask yourself--who did you initially confess as Lord--the Jesus of scripture--or the Jesus preached by those looking in from outside Christianity?
The warnings are real--look at them again--what faith do we continue in--what gospel did we first heed.
This post is offered in love--not anger and with no malice.
I don't know that twi used this "as a magical shield to do any dam2 thing they wanted.." because they also taught about loss of rewards as a tangible loss for eternity as a consequence of living in very specific sin as warned in the scriptures.
I agree with you that one cannot lose their salvation. It is quite simple. Being born again means being born "from above". That life born from above is eternal life, it cannot die. The new man is eternal.
I recommend doing a study of the word "eternal." The Greek word aionion means "belonging to the age to come."
I don't see how my different view of who Jesus is affects the point we're discussing. Even if Jesus were God, there are still those verses that warn us to continue in the faith, and the clear statement that some will depart. Note it doesn't say they didn't really believe, or believed the wrong thing. It says they would "depart from the faith" because they get seduced. This is what Jesus spoke of in the parable of the sower and the seed as well.
When I said "what more can God do?" I was referring to the fact that God has done everything for us in His Son, but sadly, there are some people who simply reject His offer. The Bible tells us this. And it tells us there will be some who accept it at first but get tricked into turning away and rejecting it. I don't see any Biblical basis for thinking that some people will be saved just because they had a "moment of faith" once but turned away and rejected Christ afterward. If that were the case, then why the warnings in those verses? How do you understand those warnings?
There are three different Greek words for spirit, soul and body. If the Lord had wanted to mean the same meaning for all three, He would have to use only one word and not three.
God can't use synonyms? Who says that God "would have" done what you say?
Not saying these three words, or even soul and spirit are synonymous, but it seems to me terms like "the spirit of man" refers to what we usually refer to as soul.
Not arguing the doctrinal point so much as the logic behind your example.
I am beat--long day--crabby clients! So, if you will be patient, I will answer you in more depth when I have more than a sleepy moment. Now, why would it matter who Jesus is concerning the warnings. Well, think about it. When you confess Jesus as Lord--do you not agree that it must be the Jesus of the bible? The one who died and was risen? Does it matter if you confess the Jesus of Islam? They hold Him in pretty high regard. Will he do--He has prophet status?
Do the scriptures not warn us that other Jesus' are preached? Do they? That is a warning Mark.
Now, if you have put your faith in a false Jesus--say the Jesus of Islam--who is a special man. And another has put their faith in the Jesus of the bible--who is the Son of God, whose faith will endure? Whose is real? Whom will Jesus keep from falling? The one whose faith is in another Jesus?
There are many Jesus' preached--Islam--mormons-JW's-TWI-Moonies-they are NOT the Jesus of scripture.
Mark, I have said this on here until I think people are ready to pelt me with rotten tomatoes--BUT, for you I will take the hit and say it again. Who are YOU confessing as LORD in your life? Because it matters--when you go out from us--you were never really of us.
Another Jesus + Another Spirit = Another Gospel.
What about saving faith? Repentence? What if someone--with words confesses Jesus as Lord--yet does not repent and bears no true fruit? Is that person saved?
Why do we stand on the outskirts looking into Christianity? Why did we in TWI? Why is ABC having a difficult time with accreditation? Why does Buzzard's attendence at a simple Christian conference lead to such problems? Because Christians are wrong? Misguided? Confused? Unenlightened?
Do I or traditional Christianity--have the wrong gospel when we call Jesus God and understand the work on the cross in that light? Are we all idolators?
Or do we see something--in the Lord--that you deny? That is the question--right gospel--faith in the Jesus of scriptures--enduring faith. Persevering faith in our Lord. Not in our own ability--
Examine ourselves YES!
Do we seek out that which is familar--and is comfortable--makes sense to our minds? Or do we humble ourselves before Him and ask--who He is?
I told you--I don't have ex-cult leaders teaching me the bible. I don't allow men who deny Him as God to influence my faith--because I have an intimite relationship with Jesus Christ--He is my father-My keeper--I know His voice--I know who He is. I love Him and He is my Lord--He reveals to me always--who He is--what He is doing in my life and that I belong to Him. He comes for me when I wander--He woos me--He holds me--and He will sustain me.
I agree it makes a difference who one is confessing when they confess Jesus as Lord. And I know that we disagree on who Jesus is. But the point of this particular thread is not whether someone is really saved in the first place based on their belief about the Trinity. The point that this thread is discussing is this: Assume a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. In your view that means accepting him as God the Son, which we'll just say for the sake of argument. If that person then later decides he does not believe in Jesus and rejects God, do you think he still will be saved? This question can be considered whether you're a Trinitarian, Unitarian, or Binitarian. Regardless of what your faith is, it's still a matter of asking, "is a MOMENT of faith sufficient, even if you later reject that faith?" There are even Trinitarians who do not believe in "once saved always saved," BTW.
Pleasant dreams. I hope you have a better day tomorrow!
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geisha779
No--I do not think that one who is saved can lose their salvation. If it were up to me or any of us---yes we could lose our salvation. I am beyond thankful that God's sovereign will is not undone by man.
The God who would allow this is unrecognizable to me.
If we could lose it--none would be saved. God is able to keep us in the faith.
It all comes down to who you think Jesus is.
BTW--NOT an accepted orthodox theology. There ARE warning passages to the visible church.
My faith is in Christ-not in me.
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Mark Clarke
To say one can lose one's salvation assumes that one has salvation in the first place. The whole argument depends on your definition of what salvation is. In TWI we were taught that once you were "saved" it didn't matter what you did, you were still saved. This idea led to rampant sin, because we were taught that the new birth is a permanent seed you could not lose. This was all based on a misunderstanding of I Peter 1:23, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." But this verse tells us that it is the seed that is incorruptible, not the person who receives it.
Our understanding of the New Birth should be understood in light of Jesus' words. I wrote about it in detail in an article about the New Birth on my website, but here is an excerpt:
Since the seed which we receive is the Word which is incorruptible, the question arises, can one lose this seed? We were taught that it was like the seed of our earthly father, in that even if I was not in fellowship with him, his seed was still in me, and I was still his son. However, the Bible does not teach this. There are a number of verses which refer to the conditional nature of this new birth (I Corinthians 10:1-12; 15:1-2; II Timothy 2:12-13; II Peter 1:10; Hebrews 3:12-14; 6:11). We are saved by grace through faith and not by works. But we must continue in that faith until the end. If we do not continue in the faith, the Word which is working in us will not remain in our hearts. This becomes easier to understand when you realize that the seed is the Word and not a "new birth seed" that is in you unconditionally, regardless of what you do afterward. I wrote about this in more detail in an article about Once Saved Always Saved on my website.
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cman
By one parable seed is the word of God.
That can't be the standard on which to base the bible.
Or being born again, etc.
The Word will accomplish it's goals.
Ever wonder if it' just one person Jesus is speaking of?
In response to the original post.
One can loose sight of salvation.
Why is salvation usually thought of as future?
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cman
If the Word is incorruptible then no matter what happens according to that parable, this would still be true, I would think.
We all have our rocky and thorny places as well as the good ground.
Such are some of the things to see in ourselves.
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Mark Clarke
cman,
You say "by one parable the seed is the word." TWI said by one verse the seed is incorruptible. I don't think that's the way to understand the Bible either.
The New Birth is based on "seed" in other scriptures too. John refers to being "begotten by the Father" in his epistles, and states that God's seed is in a person in I John 3:9. But what is that seed? The previously mentioned I Peter 1:23 says that we are born again "by the Word of God" and James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth..."
Also, while it may be only "one parable," Jesus said it was the most important one, and that if we didn't understand it we wouldn't understand any of the others. And he likens the planting of the Word to sowing seed and uses other agricultural analogies to describe both the growth in an individual and the growth of the Church. And if the parable of the sower's seed isn't talking about new birth, then Jesus never mentions the concept anywhere in the synoptic gospels. You have to connect the sower's seed with his mention of being born again in John. There are many aspects to this, more than just the one parable. (Have you read the article I linked to?)
But the biggest problem is that other than I Peter 1:23, TWI never cited any Scripture to prove that you could not lose your salvation. They just appealed to the "logic" that if I always have my earthly father's seed in me, how could God not do as good a job? But that logic is not in the Bible. Following are a couple of excerpts from what I wrote on my site:
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cman
Yes the word of truth heard and also seen will sprout.
Where do we here it from?
Grow, strengthen, diversify, and no doubt produce the word of truth.
Every seed after it's kind.
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brideofjc
TWI was into CHEAP GRACE, which allowed rampant sin indeed. I personally do not believe that one can lose the salvation of the spirit. I say this because I am a trichotomist. I do believe that one can lose ONE'S SOUL. The Lord Jesus definitely stated that this was a possibility. He didn't use the word SPIRIT. I think that sometimes when people wonder if they can lose their salvation, they confuse spirit and soul and think that the two are the one and the same. I do not personally believe this to be true. There are three different Greek words for spirit, soul and body. If the Lord had wanted to mean the same meaning for all three, He would have to use only one word and not three. I think perhaps the loss of rewards not salvation is what people are thinking about, but they list is as salvation. We will stand and be judged before the Lord Jesus Christ for all the works that were done in our bodies and the words that we spoke.
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Mark Clarke
This is another of those TWI doctrines that we accepted without checking out, because we didn't know any better. It is ironic that TWI, who was so big on figures of speech, couldn't see the use of different words for the same thing in some cases, or one word having more than one meaning in other cases.
That whole doctrine about man losing his spirit when he sinned, and being only two parts until he gets born again, is not accurate, if you study out the meanings of these words. Man does not "have" a soul, so much as man "is" a soul. Gen. 2:7 tells us that God breathed into man the breath (or 'spirit') of life, and man became a living soul. The primary usage of "soul" is "a living creature." In a secondary sense, man is sometimes said to "have soul" in the sense of having life, but it is not in the sense of the soul being a separate part of man.
And the word for "spirit" is not limited to "the spirit of God," but is used to refer to the "breath of life" that makes man alive, as well. But it isn't the "real me" as TWI used to teach. (See this article for more detail.) To "lose your soul," as Jesus put it, meant to lose your whole being, not just lose one part of you. And the holy spirit is God's spirit, not "my spirit" (see this article for more detail). So there is a real danger of losing your soul, i.e., your whole self.
This is another misunderstanding. The whole thing about losing only rewards but not losing your life is based on a misinterpretation of I Cor. 3:9-15. In that chapter, Paul is talking about planting the Word and building on the foundation of the Gospel that others may have started. If a man’s work (of planting the Gospel) is destroyed, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved. It is talking about the work of building a Church body. It’s not talking about the works a person does in his life after he is saved, and whether or not they affect his salvation. TWI took this out of context.
As I pointed out in my previous posts, "salvation" is not something we fully have yet, so the Bible does say anything about "losing your salvation." But it does speak of turning back from God and not continuing in the faith. But it was the Way's idea of "cheap grace," as you so aptly called it, that said we would still be "saved" no matter what we did later, as long as we had a moment of faith at one time.
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cman
Failure to understand what the word 'destroy' means as well as hell, death, and die.
Jesus said of himself that he would be destroyed but raised.
All things work together for a mutual purpose.
Of which we all are a part of and share in.
To loose something does not mean it's gone forever.
But will return as promised.
To loose one's soul, means annihilation, as in gone forever for some.
There is nothing that will annihilate what God has already done.
One may 'loose' their soul as in lost.
But think of how many places 'found' is used as well.
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frank123lol
You guys probably could talk rings around me,Grace,twi,should we continue in sin that grace may abound?
that was thier motto,If that is cheap grace.For the rest of us,we did our utmost to keep the scriptures,
I certainly did not live the lifestyle of twi top leadership,had I known,I would have left.
I am glad for your ideas,dont think i agree with them,Have read enough of bullinger,to agree with him.
Alot of people read this information,let them decide,to me religion is like a poptart,if you do not like
one flavor,go try another.
I have been jaundiced by twi,that I will never be a part of a church or organization.Iwill be the first to tell you to fly a kite,if you do not like it.At least I know where you are coming from,I reserve my comments on whether I think you are right.God will judge all of us,still working on where jesus fits in,I know he is my
brother,you know,heirs of god,joint hiers with jesus.Peace all
Still think I got eternal life,That is the only thing that has kept me going all these years,Remember,
Jesus in the desert?Devil tried to get him to consider his birthright,calling,He does it to us every single day.
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cman
well said frank,
the bluff don't work on me anymore
nor do i think we were ever not 'saved'
any of us
it's just a process to see it
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Mark Clarke
Just for clarity, I didn't say we are "not saved" - I said that it is not complete yet. I Peter 1:3-9 refers to the past reality of Christ’s resurrection, the hope reserved in heaven of a future inheritance, and the present state of being kept by God’s power through faith, unto the future salvation. There are past, present, and future aspects of our salvation. In I Corinthians 1:18 and II Corinthians 2:15, where it says we "are saved" it is actually a participal in Greek and better translated, we "are being saved," as it is rendered in more modern versions.
When we believe the Gospel, we receive the Word in our hearts, and the spirit begins a regenerating process. This process, when complete, will result in eternal life in the Age to Come. We have the incorruptible seed, which is the Word (I Peter 1:23), but it doesn’t say that WE are incorruptible. Like in the parable of the good seed, we could get distracted by cares or pleasures, or choked by pressures. We could even be deceived by false teachers. We must make sure that the seed grows and bears fruit. It is an ongoing process, and we are told that some will depart from the faith. When someone does turn away, he is not said to "lose" his salvation, since salvation is not something that he fully has yet. This is why we are exhorted to continue in faith until the end.
If you believe it is a permanent seed that you can't ever lose, then what do you make of the conditional "if" statements and warnings to keep the faith in the following verses?
This is an important warning that we should express to our brethren so they don’t get deceived, or become complacent and think that steadfast faith until the end is not required as long as they believed once. We are saved by grace through faith, but not a one-time moment of faith. We must continue in the faith until the end when our salvation will be complete.
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frank123lol
i talked with a friend(non twi,ever),He is a baptist,Suprise,suprise,we both are still in dispensation
thinking,he said the bible is adressed to different groups.Salvation is not a progressive event.
Point is we all think different,have different interpations of the bible,Whatever,I enjoy our discussions.Peace.
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Mark Clarke
We could get into a whole discussion about Dispensationalism, but that would be getting way off topic. Besides, I think it's already been done here in other threads. If anyone is interested, here is what I wrote about it on my web site:
Dispensationalism
One Gospel
Hebrew Origins of the Bible
Is the Kingdom of God Only For Israel?
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frank123lol
Mark,You do seem to have an agenda,I asked I know,That is what greasespot is about,discussing stuff you never could around twi.For that I am grateful.Peace
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geisha779
know ye not that you were bought with a price for you are not your own-The price paid to a Holy God was the shed blood of His own Son. Knowing that you are not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood as of a lamb unblemished and spotless the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory so that your faith and hope are in God.
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Mark Clarke
Awesome video, Geisha. Thanks! Were those scenes from The Passion of the Christ?
It's because God and His Son did so much for us that when someone turns away and no longer believes it, what more can God do?
Frank,
My only agenda is to get people to stop and think and look at the Bible, and not just blindly accept what they were taught. To assume that one could believe once, and later turn away and no longer believe, and have that be OK, to me cheapens the work that Jesus did. And more importantly, it contradicts those Scriptures that I listed in my previous post.
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oldiesman
I don't know that twi used this "as a magical shield to do any dam2 thing they wanted.." because they also taught about loss of rewards as a tangible loss for eternity as a consequence of living in very specific sin as warned in the scriptures.
I agree with you that one cannot lose their salvation. It is quite simple. Being born again means being born "from above". That life born from above is eternal life, it cannot die. The new man is eternal.
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geisha779
Hi Mark,
Yes the scences were from "The Passion". I am so glad you enjoyed it--because I posted it just for you. Your question begs answers that run so deeply as to be virtually impossible to address here on a forum. One of the reasons I won't engage you is because I can see how very sold-out and deeply immersed you are in your new faith.
Having been in a cult and ridden that high of special knowledge--I know from experience--you think I blindly accept what I was taught. You appear to feel you now have a 'right' understanding. Your posts often use the word "Misunderstanding" when you set forth your interpretation of scripture. You used "blindly accept" in the above quote. It is a neon sign to me Mark.
What if you are seeing through an aberrant lens?
Were I to tell you that your blindness of those very scriptures you quote comes from your 'misunderstanding' of who Jesus is--. Would you for a second seriously consider my words? If I told you that they are actually speaking of you--would you hear me? Or would you pity me as misguided and try to explain to me how to see the Hebraic understanding?
I know that you believe you have found the truth. You came from one cult that denied that Jesus--So did Anthony Buzzard. You found another cult where you are comfortable--as it holds the same doctrine. It is just dressed differently. More scholary.
Your new faith finds itself on many lists that include the Church of God--and The Way International--that is why I call it a cult. But, when I was in TWI--lists written by Christian watchmen--didn't matter--they were wrong. In reality--they were right.
The few things I can do for you are pray and direct you to some sound Christian teachers. Since you seem impressed with the scholarly aspect of teaching--I would direct you to Ravi Zacharias--who teaches at Oxford. R.C.Sprouls is another scholarly man you could listen to. In fact Mark, you may even be able to contact these men and meet them--sit down with them and speak to them. They were never in a cult--and they never denied Jesus.
When you ask "What more can God do?" It screams to me--he doesn't know Him--How can He not know that God is able, how can he not know who the ones who turn away really are?
Mark, you need to ask yourself--who did you initially confess as Lord--the Jesus of scripture--or the Jesus preached by those looking in from outside Christianity?
The warnings are real--look at them again--what faith do we continue in--what gospel did we first heed.
This post is offered in love--not anger and with no malice.
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Mark Clarke
I recommend doing a study of the word "eternal." The Greek word aionion means "belonging to the age to come."
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Mark Clarke
Geisha,
I don't see how my different view of who Jesus is affects the point we're discussing. Even if Jesus were God, there are still those verses that warn us to continue in the faith, and the clear statement that some will depart. Note it doesn't say they didn't really believe, or believed the wrong thing. It says they would "depart from the faith" because they get seduced. This is what Jesus spoke of in the parable of the sower and the seed as well.
When I said "what more can God do?" I was referring to the fact that God has done everything for us in His Son, but sadly, there are some people who simply reject His offer. The Bible tells us this. And it tells us there will be some who accept it at first but get tricked into turning away and rejecting it. I don't see any Biblical basis for thinking that some people will be saved just because they had a "moment of faith" once but turned away and rejected Christ afterward. If that were the case, then why the warnings in those verses? How do you understand those warnings?
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Oakspear
Not saying these three words, or even soul and spirit are synonymous, but it seems to me terms like "the spirit of man" refers to what we usually refer to as soul.
Not arguing the doctrinal point so much as the logic behind your example.
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geisha779
Hey Mark,
I am beat--long day--crabby clients! So, if you will be patient, I will answer you in more depth when I have more than a sleepy moment. Now, why would it matter who Jesus is concerning the warnings. Well, think about it. When you confess Jesus as Lord--do you not agree that it must be the Jesus of the bible? The one who died and was risen? Does it matter if you confess the Jesus of Islam? They hold Him in pretty high regard. Will he do--He has prophet status?
Do the scriptures not warn us that other Jesus' are preached? Do they? That is a warning Mark.
Now, if you have put your faith in a false Jesus--say the Jesus of Islam--who is a special man. And another has put their faith in the Jesus of the bible--who is the Son of God, whose faith will endure? Whose is real? Whom will Jesus keep from falling? The one whose faith is in another Jesus?
There are many Jesus' preached--Islam--mormons-JW's-TWI-Moonies-they are NOT the Jesus of scripture.
Mark, I have said this on here until I think people are ready to pelt me with rotten tomatoes--BUT, for you I will take the hit and say it again. Who are YOU confessing as LORD in your life? Because it matters--when you go out from us--you were never really of us.
Another Jesus + Another Spirit = Another Gospel.
What about saving faith? Repentence? What if someone--with words confesses Jesus as Lord--yet does not repent and bears no true fruit? Is that person saved?
Why do we stand on the outskirts looking into Christianity? Why did we in TWI? Why is ABC having a difficult time with accreditation? Why does Buzzard's attendence at a simple Christian conference lead to such problems? Because Christians are wrong? Misguided? Confused? Unenlightened?
Do I or traditional Christianity--have the wrong gospel when we call Jesus God and understand the work on the cross in that light? Are we all idolators?
Or do we see something--in the Lord--that you deny? That is the question--right gospel--faith in the Jesus of scriptures--enduring faith. Persevering faith in our Lord. Not in our own ability--
Examine ourselves YES!
Do we seek out that which is familar--and is comfortable--makes sense to our minds? Or do we humble ourselves before Him and ask--who He is?
I told you--I don't have ex-cult leaders teaching me the bible. I don't allow men who deny Him as God to influence my faith--because I have an intimite relationship with Jesus Christ--He is my father-My keeper--I know His voice--I know who He is. I love Him and He is my Lord--He reveals to me always--who He is--what He is doing in my life and that I belong to Him. He comes for me when I wander--He woos me--He holds me--and He will sustain me.
I trust Him.
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Mark Clarke
Geisha,
I agree it makes a difference who one is confessing when they confess Jesus as Lord. And I know that we disagree on who Jesus is. But the point of this particular thread is not whether someone is really saved in the first place based on their belief about the Trinity. The point that this thread is discussing is this: Assume a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. In your view that means accepting him as God the Son, which we'll just say for the sake of argument. If that person then later decides he does not believe in Jesus and rejects God, do you think he still will be saved? This question can be considered whether you're a Trinitarian, Unitarian, or Binitarian. Regardless of what your faith is, it's still a matter of asking, "is a MOMENT of faith sufficient, even if you later reject that faith?" There are even Trinitarians who do not believe in "once saved always saved," BTW.
Pleasant dreams. I hope you have a better day tomorrow!
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