Plethora? Really?? exactly how many do you think that is? My point exactly second hand from a good source (Isn't it always) who probably heard it from another good source who was a cousin of someone that knew someone that heard it .
One point you may have missed is that there are people here who heard it firsthand, themselves, directly from Wierwille.
That is not secondhand hearsay, it's personal testimony. Unlike an urban legend, it can be traced directly to it's point of origin.
Wierwille said it. That's a fact. Whether you choose to believe it or not means very little to me.
Plethora? Really?? exactly how many do you think that is? My point exactly second hand from a good source (Isn't it always) who probably heard it from another good source who was a cousin of someone that knew someone that heard it .
Well it would if I were to do such a thing but there is that slight problem with your theory. You see I never said that, you seem to have decided what I believe all by your lonesome. My standard applies to fallible humans not God or his scripture there is a big difference He does not lie. You also seem to have forgot that these everyday men you speak of wrote as they were moved by the holy spirit something I doubt can be said for posts here, including my own. Oh and third You believe it because it says so. Really??? You know this how??? no I believe it because it has been tried and found documentable, and every day it becomes more so in science archaeology and various other fields. And then there is that unmistakable proof that gobbledygook thing
Really White Dove,
Archaeology PROVES the bible is GOD BREATHED?? Really? Wow--HOW? How is it documentable? I bet Lindyhopper could throw you a curve on THAT one. You MIGHT end up saying you believe it on faith and because it SAYS so. Betcha!
As for where I heard that from--it was not actually someone even you would refute. But, I don't care enough about your rant to embarass the person. She is a lovely woman with a very nice husband--and they were GOOD to me.
You have circular reasoning when it suits you--and when it doesn't well, you pick.
I know the definition of hypocritical White dove.
Do you?
Just because you say it is so--doesn't make it anymore than your opinion. Hardly a factual post from my vantage point, of course, I am using your standard.
Thanks for your honesty in posting....... and I do agree on the accounts in Acts one does take that on faith or not depending on ones beliefs. personally I do accept it as truth because I believe the Bible is true, is Gods Word, and that God is not a man that He should lie.
Former MOG's words are not God breathed while they may be men like those in the Bible their opinions which change day to day, and in no way compare to to scripture in which Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit. . . . . .
My standard applies to fallible humans not God or his scripture there is a big difference He does not lie. You also seem to have forgot that these everyday men you speak of wrote as they were moved by the holy spirit something I doubt can be said for posts here, including my own. Oh and third You believe it because it says so. Really??? You know this how??? no I believe it because it has been tried and found documentable, and every day it becomes more so in science archaeology and various other fields.
He doesn't lie--and you know this how? Because the bible says so and you believe it why? Because you say--it has been tried and found documentable yada yada yada. . . .
Sounds like what I said--only this time I used YOUR words
Still your opinion--unless you got some FACTS to back it up. Just because you say it is true--doesn't make it so.
People are fickle--you could change your mind tommorow.
Thanks for your honesty in posting....... and I do agree on the accounts in Acts one does take that on faith or not depending on ones beliefs. personally I do accept it as truth because I believe the Bible is true, is Gods Word, and that God is not a man that He should lie.
Former MOG's words are not God breathed while they may be men like those in the Bible their opinions which change day to day, and in no way compare to to scripture in which Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit. . . . . .
My standard applies to fallible humans not God or his scripture there is a big difference He does not lie. You also seem to have forgot that these everyday men you speak of wrote as they were moved by the holy spirit something I doubt can be said for posts here, including my own. Oh and third You believe it because it says so. Really??? You know this how??? no I believe it because it has been tried and found documentable, and every day it becomes more so in science archaeology and various other fields.
He doesn't lie--and you know this how? Because the bible says so and you believe it why? Because you say--it has been tried and found documentable yada yada yada. . . .
Sounds like what I said--only this time I used YOUR words
Still your opinion--unless you got some FACTS to back it up. Just because you say it is true--doesn't make it so.
People are fickle--you could change your mind tommorow.
I am done now.
It sounds like nothing you said! I think you have gone in too many circles. There is a clear difference between humans speaking their opinion and humans speaking as moved by the holy spirit and that would be the differnce in the applied standards.
It sounds like nothing you said! I think you have gone in too many circles. There is a clear difference between humans speaking their opinion and humans speaking as moved by the holy spirit and that would be the differnce in the applied standards.
Okey doke--if you say so. That is circular reasoning BTW.
Listen Whitedove--I gotta tell you--I don't have anything against you--I bet you can be a pretty nice guy IRL.
But, I am often confused by your response to those victims of abuse who bravely come forward here? Even if you don't believe all of them--couldn't some of them be telling the truth? Do they all have ulterior motives?
Even if you don't give them the benefit of the doubt--don't they deserve compassion and respect? As people made in God's image--don't you long to reach out and comfort them? It would be an appropriate Godly response .
I also want to tell you with the sincerest of heart--that SIT thing--it is not proof of salvation. It is not--people here have renounced Christ--I bet they can still do it. I know you won't believe me--I am sure of it--but I hope someday you see all of TWI for what it was. That is my fervent hope for you.
Geisha signing off--I have made my point ad nauseum--even to me! LOL
Even if you don't give them the benefit of the doubt--don't they deserve compassion and respect? As people made in God's image--don't you long to reach out and comfort them? It would be an appropriate Godly response .
I look at this a little different way. If I am not convinced someone is telling the truth about abuse, it means I don't know either way. And that is why I have generally kept any doubts to myself; there have been a few exceptions, but mostly I keep them in private messages. Why? Because even if I don't know for sure, I don't want to risk hurting someone by advertising my doubts.
UNLESS...if I have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that people were NOT abused...then I don't risk hurting someone by expressing my doubts. Maybe that should be our question. Do you have proof that the abuse did NOT happen? then why risk hurting people...even one person...by emphasizing so often and emphatically that abuse hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Meanwhile, a lot of my doubts have been recently removed.
Here we go again...don't we all know by now that any time anyone says anything critical of Wierwille WhiteDove will raise his hand from the back of the class and remind us of the lack of documentation and witnesses and how that makes it all opinion and not facts.
I don't belive that to be true you Oak yourself have noted that I have posted about disagreements with Wierwille doctrine. And by the way the post that started this before others introduced other side topics had nothing to do with Wierwille . I took exception that someone infered that sripture was overruled, I don't believe that to be a true statement. Speaking for myself and I imagine quite a few others I was never forced to overrule scripture.
Thanks for your honesty in posting....... and I do agree on the accounts in Acts one does take that on faith or not depending on ones beliefs. personally I do accept it as truth because I believe the Bible is true, is Gods Word, and that God is not a man that He should lie. Well and then there is that gobbledygook thing
In regard to everyday occurrences we also agree. You may have missed it but in several cases before I have posted that it is reasonable to accept things at face value in those situations however in the case where someone's character is being maligned or they are being accused of a crime then I feel it prudent to have a little more content than I say so. This tends to get buried as it is more fun to opposition to misrepresent the point. I've never implied that someone who said they had an orange for breakfast should be suspect. Generally in routine matters people tend to be honest. I'd exclude people who post on a admittedly biased exway site from being routine. the same for those on a pro way site each has an agenda. .
No matter how good and kind a person may be often their words are empty, we are human, fallible and we lie ,just as the scriptures said. You don't need to look far to see that, look at the divorce rate all of those people who vowed a vow to love, honor, cherish ,support one another in good and bad situations. Those who were the love of their life, those who they would have entrusted their very life and secrets of the heart and yet now their words are empty, the situations changed and with it their views on the other person have as well. What once was he or she is wonderful has turned to they are an a**hole The same is true for best friends until something like a guy gets in the way, then all of a sudden that best friend forever seems to get tossed by the wayside. Empty words...... The same is true for former Way followers life was all and good until they were on the wrong side of the atta boy line, or they lost their cushy life as a MOG, then all of a sudden they have a different view. That's why facts are important they don't change with emotions, job loss, or other temporal things. They remain constant through all the BS all the I'll be true forever claims, all the best friends claims.
Your correct to some degree we all must trust people , I've learned from past mistakes to keep that to a minimum. perhaps you have heard the phrase fair weather friends? Many of us had friends ,people we trusted in the way who because of choices to stand with the way, despite years of trust now their words were empty one moment we were the best the next we were gangrene.
Really think about it ,if someone that you gave your heart to ,who knows your innermost secrets, someone you sleep with every night, can change their words from you are the love of my life to you are a so and so ,then I'd guess some exwafers would surely be capable of changing their words as well. I've seen it happen here, once friends, nothing but praise for each other until something happens and then their words are void. Now they are the dirt of the earth. I choose not to play that game anymore Experience will tell you..... Trust no one.......
(((Lindyhopper))))) and ((((WhiteDove))))) and ((((All))),
I love and respect You both as I Love and respect everyone!!!
Reading these two posts clearly shows me Your hearts and Your intents!!! I sometime think You are
misunderstood at times; and that is a two way street...sometimes We all misunderstand!!! I don't
think Your motives are to attack or to persecute other posters...Just that You valiantly want you views
validated.
They are valid!
I accept the testimonies of other posters as valid as well;and not because I
am naive or gullable; but because I am not their judge, jury or accuser. If they are bearing false wittiness
against their neighbor; they know it and GOD knows it too.
It is every man's decision to moment by moment to be truthful or not...It is a free will choice and no one is
accountable to me!!!
We have All been Hurt badly and Had our Trust breeched and some of us may never trust very much again!!!
Lack of belief in no way alters the realities of what happened to the rest of us in twi Dove.
There have been repeated incidents related by many people of instances when scripture was and did get over ruled.
Your refusal to acknowledge the ocurance doesn`t mean that it didin`t happen, but rather you personally chose to remain in denial.
In order to do this, it seems you must try repeatedly to negate the validity of first hand eye witness testimony with your second hand opinions.
Again had you read what I said you would see that I never said scripture was never overruled what I said was that each had a choice to do what scripture said or not. If one made the choice to not then that is hardly anyone elses fault. Regardles of what anyone said or any pressure we still have free will and we certainly had ample instruction on following the scripture at every turn. So you see I never refused to acknowledge the ocurance, only pointed out that each is responsible for their own choices. Much like someone really can't make another angry, now they can do their best to irritate the person, but that person still has a choice to get angry or not, if you allowed someone to overrule scripture the choice was yours.
Lack of belief in no way alters the realities of what happened to the rest of us in twi Dove.
There have been repeated incidents related by many people of instances when scripture was and did get over ruled.
Your refusal to acknowledge the ocurance doesn`t mean that it didin`t happen, but rather you personally chose to remain in denial.
In order to do this, it seems you must try repeatedly to negate the validity of first hand eye witness testimony with your second hand opinions.
Hey Rascal,
This is just my humble opinion. Scripture is never really overruled--it is there and people can choose what they do. However, the bible tells us all over the place not to cause a weaker one to stumble. So, it is possible for this to happen and should be front and center in a Christian's thinking. Someone who is vulnerable--or looking to those who claim a place of authority over us as "Leadership" IMHO are weaker. Therefore, those in a position of authority are not to cause them to stumble. Sounds like the onus is on the "Stronger."
But then again, Romans 13:10 tells us --- Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So, seems there was a bit of stumbling being caused by those big strong MOGs--Truly a Christian will love their brother or sister enough to restrict their own freedom. It is obvious to me--this rarely happened. But then again--were they Christian?
In fact --we that are strong have an obligation to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and NOT to please ourselves.
This is just my humble opinion. Scripture is never really overruled--it is there and people can choose what they do.
People can & do choose, but in my opinion, that's not the issue. The way I see it, the problem is that men & women claiming to be Christian leaders demanded that their followers overrule scripture. Whether anyone actually obeyed them is beside the point.
Another issue is that seldom was it that clear cut. I can't remember any time when a leader overtly told anyone to do anything that contradicted the bible. Can you imagine the conversation?
Leader: Joe Believer, the bible says XYZ, I want you to ignore that, because I know more than God, so please do ABC, which is in direct opposition to XYZ.
It was usually more like:
Leader: Joe Believer, I know that you think that they bible says XYZ, but your thinking is faulty, it really means ABC...look, it says so in the Blue Book, and check out this Greek word here, and 'Y' is a forgery by those Trinitarians. So if you really want to do the Word you'll abandon your rebellious thinking and do ABC.
Geisha, I know what happened to me, and what I viewed happen to others.
Scripture says to do thus...twi leader says...yeah but you need to do such.
The seeming discrepancies were chalked up to either a lack in our understanding, a lack of spiritual maturity, or unreliable translations.
Time and again we were told that we must do that which was contrary to scriptures, contrary to what was best for ourselves or our children, contrary to our desires in order to remain in the center of God`s will, in order to not give satan access to our lives.
Say what you will, I know what I experienced and how horrendous abuse was justified, condoned and excused in God`s name entirely contrary to what scriptures actually say.
Geisha, I know what happened to me, and what I viewed happen to others.
Scripture says to do thus...twi leader says...yeah but you need to do such.
The seeming discrepancies were chalked up to either a lack in our understanding, a lack of spiritual maturity, or unreliable translations.
Time and again we were told that we must do that which was contrary to scriptures, contrary to what was best for ourselves or our children, contrary to our desires in order to remain in the center of God`s will, in order to not give satan access to our lives.
Say what you will, I know what I experienced and how horrendous abuse was justified, condoned and excused in God`s name entirely contrary to what scriptures actually say.
Rascal,
I am agreeing with you.
I still see justification here by some. On very iffy ground IMHO. Even if the choice was really ours (And I could debate that one) the responsibility lies with the one claiming to be stronger--to keep the weaker from stumbling.
It then becomes THEIR responsibility. They have the power to cause us to stumble. They are to deny themselves to keep us walking upright.
Scripture was ignored---time and time again--I agree--ignored--denied--and twisted--all in God's name. Often to abusive ends. No doubt.
When WhiteDove says--yeah, but we had a choice- In my opinion--that is one small snapshot in a much larger picture--when taken as a whole it paints a very bad portrait of and FOR the abuser. It in no way absolves them. It condems them.
It reminds me of The Way.
So, in my own--and usually unclear way--I was backing you up--because I lived it too.
This is just my humble opinion. Scripture is never really overruled--it is there and people can choose what they do. However, the bible tells us all over the place not to cause a weaker one to stumble. So, it is possible for this to happen and should be front and center in a Christian's thinking. Someone who is vulnerable--or looking to those who claim a place of authority over us as "Leadership" IMHO are weaker. Therefore, those in a position of authority are not to cause them to stumble. Sounds like the onus is on the "Stronger."
But then again, Romans 13:10 tells us --- Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So, seems there was a bit of stumbling being caused by those big strong MOGs--Truly a Christian will love their brother or sister enough to restrict their own freedom. It is obvious to me--this rarely happened. But then again--were they Christian?
In fact --we that are strong have an obligation to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and NOT to please ourselves.
Absolutely you get no argument from me on this!
On the other side of the coin though it is still our responsibility to learn the scripture for ourselves I think it talks about iron sharpening iron. not iron following iron. when the iron is sharpened there is resistance sparks fly sometimes that does not sound passive to me. People are always selling something whether intentional or unintentional, but we don't have to buy what they are selling. I could see the point if it were someone new in the scripture, maybe they would tend to just follow along, but we are talking about people with years of time in the scripture Corps Grads at some point one would think that they are no longer feeding on the milk of others so to speak. A young auto mechanics student might pour water in the gas tank if their teacher told them to, but someone that works on cars for years and spent time in their craft would not blindly do such a thing. Were we not to be students of our craft so to speak?
I accept the testimonies of other posters as valid as well; and not because I
am naive or gullable
Rainbow Girl, to be clear, I was not calling anyone who believes the testimonies here gullible and stupid. I was just giving the other end of the spectrum from the "prove everything" guy. I believe the testimonies here. In part because of my experience with abuse and my experience with others who've been abused and my TWI experiences. It is also in part because in TWI it was a small world after all and I know a person that I believe is credible and they vouch for so and so and they know some other so and so that I know and on and on. The web is tight and I know all the Way teachings and the bigger picture presented here seems to fit for me, for the most part.
I was also not calling any Christian gullible and stupid. I realize there is more to it, I just don't believe it is rock solid in terms of evidence as Geisha clearly does no matter how many smart people she quotes. There are smart people on both side and idiots on both sides. Intelligence and idiocy know no race, sex, creed, or political affiliation. Well maybe on the later.... kidding
On the other hand, if we were to take our Greasy case to court today against TWI... I'm not sure we could win. I could be wrong. That doesn't make what TWI has done right or our allegations untrue. I never said anything about it being fair or unfair either. It is the reality of the situation, IMO.
Lifted Up said it best. I was thinking the same thing a few weeks back when I deleted a very nasty post I was writing in response to White Dove. If you don't know that the person who is claiming to be abused to be lying, then hold your tongue, cause if they are telling the truth you are hurting them more than you can image.
For all of us that have been hurt and abused by people and friends in TWI, in other groups, and relationships, I don't think not trusting is the answer. We learn from these experiences and hopefully we start to learn better ways to get to know people and better ways to approach groups and how and when and how much we allow them into our lives. Hopefully with all the finger pointing and blame laying and truth telling and conscience clearing we've learned something about ourselves in the process and are better off for it and can prove it by our interactions with others.
I don't think this is the issue. What a person believes is irrelevant it is wrong to libel a person in a public forum unless one has documentation to back up their claim.
You're misusing the term "libel" again.
Since you must not mean to derail this discussion,
we can pick this back up on the thread about libel,
I got your point--we are to love-- even our enemies--let God be the judge--although, we are to be wise. We don't set ourselves up a determininer-in-cheif. If someone is lying about something like abuse--and I imagine that is rare--doesn't that itself sound like a cry for help? So, either way, there are Godly responses--and then responses that echo TWI doctrine.
Lindyhopper,
I have missed you! :) Don't believe me? I thought of you the other day---when I was musing over something I read--my line of thought brought me around to a GS discussion--and then something you had said. I prayed for you. Glad to see you here.
I don't think the "Case for Christ" is air tight. I believe it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt--if one looks at it objectively. If you ever get that old itch to look at it yourself---Lee Strobel has a great book called (Drumroll please) The Case for Christ. Also Ravi Zacharias is an awesome guy. Teaches at Oxford--when not traveling the globe--speaking to some of the most influential people in the world. He spoke at the UN this year. I am reading his book called
The End of Reasona response to the new atheists. You should take a look at his life and credentials--hardened atheist to begin with. RC Sprouls is a Christian philosopher who is very interesting to read or listen to. So, if you ever get curious again--there are some great Christian brains out there.
Just as an aside--I have had the honor of meeting some of the "brains" that go around debating atheists. Wow, Lindy--I have met VP and the crew--the difference is just shocking--shocking. A true Christian mind--a false teacher wannabe--no comparison. These people who truly know the Lord--SHINE.
What always gets me are the ones who set out to prove the bible wrong--the ardent skeptics--who come to Christ kicking and screaming--they are some of the most amazing witnesses for Him.
Whitedove,
If we are to know the scriptures? What is the excuse for your posts here? We are to know them and what. . . . . twist them. . . . . back up our own rationale with them. . . . use them as a weapon to hurt. . . . what? What do they tell us to do--over and over--seems rainbowsgirl has it figured out.
I submit to you--we learned a deviant form of scripture--built on the faultiest of premises--taught with the sickest intentions and used to control. So for me, your whole argument is moot and just a perpetuation of the same doggedly "hardline" aberrant Christianity which left so many--the walking wounded.
As much as I hurt for the victims--part of me really hurts for you as well. It does, because it appear-seems-looks like--your need to be "Right" overrides your ability to reason and be compassionate. That is what clinging to TWI doctrine and the idols who sold it to us--result in. I could be wrong about you--these posts are just a snap-shot--but, I went back and really looked at yours.
Did you ever know VP? Howard--Craig?
Is it worth it to one day stand before God and say--yeah, but I thought I was right--that is why I didn't hear the cry from those asking for love, compassion, respect and trust while telling us their story?
You do NOT want to be standing with these guys on that day.
You said it yourself--"Words are cheap" Students of our craft--Not crafty with words!
R.D. has given very detailed personal information that recounts his experiences as he and TWi parted ways.
Is that not enough for you? If you're not clear on the details, I'm sure you know how to correspond with him directly.
Or, was it the statement regarding VP and his daughters?
(I will point out that JeffSjo had the details stated inaccurately but not enough to change the essence of the matter.)
Several people have testified that they were personally present when VP expounded on how he fondled his daughters' n!pples in a supposed exercise in sexuality awareness education.
Did the fondling actually take place as Wierwille claimed?
I don't know.
What I do know, however, is that he(VPW) claimed it did.
Keep in mind that this is something that was proclaimed in front of a roomful of people, not in some private conversation.
And, as has been pointed out, he did this on more than one occasion so there must have been some forethought involved in his making these statements.
Hi Waysider,
Thank you for starting this thread. I have to say that when I looked at it for the first time yesterday that I felt terrible about my misstatement of Wierwille's actions with his daughters. As it relates to that point, in the Christian Soldiers thread I still think that a real marines response to Wierwille's actions with his daughters would not change, and thus the essence (as you say) is the same.
But in my splinter group struggles one of the things that I faced was the neccesity of quoting people correctly and remembering things accurately. If I didn't happen to be fairly good at that I don't think that I would have been able to make it through the seemingly endless mindgames that they threw at me. For the most part they couldn't say anything when I reminded them of what they did, because I had it right. This is why, when you pointed out my error, it pretty much wrecked the rest of my day yesterday, because these things are important to me.
When someone contradicts eyewitness testimony they need to have facts themselves. Otherwise to me, they are just casting doubt on somebody without providing anything substantive themselves. In such cases, IMO most often, they are only disputing the witness in order to bully and/or limit the impact of the testimony. They are the ones whose motives need to be questioned as they are argumentative but not substantive. Style but no substance if you will.
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waysider
One point you may have missed is that there are people here who heard it firsthand, themselves, directly from Wierwille.
That is not secondhand hearsay, it's personal testimony. Unlike an urban legend, it can be traced directly to it's point of origin.
Wierwille said it. That's a fact. Whether you choose to believe it or not means very little to me.
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geisha779
Really White Dove,
Archaeology PROVES the bible is GOD BREATHED?? Really? Wow--HOW? How is it documentable? I bet Lindyhopper could throw you a curve on THAT one. You MIGHT end up saying you believe it on faith and because it SAYS so. Betcha!
As for where I heard that from--it was not actually someone even you would refute. But, I don't care enough about your rant to embarass the person. She is a lovely woman with a very nice husband--and they were GOOD to me.
You have circular reasoning when it suits you--and when it doesn't well, you pick.
I know the definition of hypocritical White dove.
Do you?
Just because you say it is so--doesn't make it anymore than your opinion. Hardly a factual post from my vantage point, of course, I am using your standard.
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WhiteDove
Archa
I fail to find where I said such a thing. but then you know that don't you. what I said was
I believe it because it has been tried and found documentable, and every day it becomes more so in science archaeology and various other fields.
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geisha779
Thanks for your honesty in posting....... and I do agree on the accounts in Acts one does take that on faith or not depending on ones beliefs. personally I do accept it as truth because I believe the Bible is true, is Gods Word, and that God is not a man that He should lie.
Former MOG's words are not God breathed while they may be men like those in the Bible their opinions which change day to day, and in no way compare to to scripture in which Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit. . . . . .
My standard applies to fallible humans not God or his scripture there is a big difference He does not lie. You also seem to have forgot that these everyday men you speak of wrote as they were moved by the holy spirit something I doubt can be said for posts here, including my own. Oh and third You believe it because it says so. Really??? You know this how??? no I believe it because it has been tried and found documentable, and every day it becomes more so in science archaeology and various other fields.
He doesn't lie--and you know this how? Because the bible says so and you believe it why? Because you say--it has been tried and found documentable yada yada yada. . . .
Sounds like what I said--only this time I used YOUR words
Still your opinion--unless you got some FACTS to back it up. Just because you say it is true--doesn't make it so.
People are fickle--you could change your mind tommorow.
I am done now.
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WhiteDove
It sounds like nothing you said! I think you have gone in too many circles. There is a clear difference between humans speaking their opinion and humans speaking as moved by the holy spirit and that would be the differnce in the applied standards.
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geisha779
Okey doke--if you say so. That is circular reasoning BTW.
Listen Whitedove--I gotta tell you--I don't have anything against you--I bet you can be a pretty nice guy IRL.
But, I am often confused by your response to those victims of abuse who bravely come forward here? Even if you don't believe all of them--couldn't some of them be telling the truth? Do they all have ulterior motives?
Even if you don't give them the benefit of the doubt--don't they deserve compassion and respect? As people made in God's image--don't you long to reach out and comfort them? It would be an appropriate Godly response .
I also want to tell you with the sincerest of heart--that SIT thing--it is not proof of salvation. It is not--people here have renounced Christ--I bet they can still do it. I know you won't believe me--I am sure of it--but I hope someday you see all of TWI for what it was. That is my fervent hope for you.
Geisha signing off--I have made my point ad nauseum--even to me! LOL
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excathedra
oh, this isn't a good fight -- it's boring ;)
hey lindy !!!!! i love you little bro :)
--
something was said about a letter versus a rant !!!! good one. lol lol
hey is the bible a letter or a rant !!! lol let's get to the truth lol
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Lifted Up
I look at this a little different way. If I am not convinced someone is telling the truth about abuse, it means I don't know either way. And that is why I have generally kept any doubts to myself; there have been a few exceptions, but mostly I keep them in private messages. Why? Because even if I don't know for sure, I don't want to risk hurting someone by advertising my doubts.
UNLESS...if I have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that people were NOT abused...then I don't risk hurting someone by expressing my doubts. Maybe that should be our question. Do you have proof that the abuse did NOT happen? then why risk hurting people...even one person...by emphasizing so often and emphatically that abuse hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Meanwhile, a lot of my doubts have been recently removed.
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Oakspear
Good points Lifted.
If you know someone is lying, that's one thing, if you don't know either way, that's another.
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WhiteDove
I don't belive that to be true you Oak yourself have noted that I have posted about disagreements with Wierwille doctrine. And by the way the post that started this before others introduced other side topics had nothing to do with Wierwille . I took exception that someone infered that sripture was overruled, I don't believe that to be a true statement. Speaking for myself and I imagine quite a few others I was never forced to overrule scripture.
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rascal
Lack of belief in no way alters the realities of what happened to the rest of us in twi Dove.
There have been repeated incidents related by many people of instances when scripture was and did get over ruled.
Your refusal to acknowledge the ocurance doesn`t mean that it didin`t happen, but rather you personally chose to remain in denial.
In order to do this, it seems you must try repeatedly to negate the validity of first hand eye witness testimony with your second hand opinions.
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RainbowsGirl
(((Lindyhopper))))) and ((((WhiteDove))))) and ((((All))),
I love and respect You both as I Love and respect everyone!!!
Reading these two posts clearly shows me Your hearts and Your intents!!! I sometime think You are
misunderstood at times; and that is a two way street...sometimes We all misunderstand!!! I don't
think Your motives are to attack or to persecute other posters...Just that You valiantly want you views
validated.
They are valid!
I accept the testimonies of other posters as valid as well; and not because I
am naive or gullable; but because I am not their judge, jury or accuser. If they are bearing false wittiness
against their neighbor; they know it and GOD knows it too.
It is every man's decision to moment by moment to be truthful or not...It is a free will choice and no one is
accountable to me!!!
We have All been Hurt badly and Had our Trust breeched and some of us may never trust very much again!!!
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WhiteDove
Again had you read what I said you would see that I never said scripture was never overruled what I said was that each had a choice to do what scripture said or not. If one made the choice to not then that is hardly anyone elses fault. Regardles of what anyone said or any pressure we still have free will and we certainly had ample instruction on following the scripture at every turn. So you see I never refused to acknowledge the ocurance, only pointed out that each is responsible for their own choices. Much like someone really can't make another angry, now they can do their best to irritate the person, but that person still has a choice to get angry or not, if you allowed someone to overrule scripture the choice was yours.
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geisha779
Hey Rascal,
This is just my humble opinion. Scripture is never really overruled--it is there and people can choose what they do. However, the bible tells us all over the place not to cause a weaker one to stumble. So, it is possible for this to happen and should be front and center in a Christian's thinking. Someone who is vulnerable--or looking to those who claim a place of authority over us as "Leadership" IMHO are weaker. Therefore, those in a position of authority are not to cause them to stumble. Sounds like the onus is on the "Stronger."
But then again, Romans 13:10 tells us --- Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
So, seems there was a bit of stumbling being caused by those big strong MOGs--Truly a Christian will love their brother or sister enough to restrict their own freedom. It is obvious to me--this rarely happened. But then again--were they Christian?
In fact --we that are strong have an obligation to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and NOT to please ourselves.
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Oakspear
Another issue is that seldom was it that clear cut. I can't remember any time when a leader overtly told anyone to do anything that contradicted the bible. Can you imagine the conversation?
Leader: Joe Believer, the bible says XYZ, I want you to ignore that, because I know more than God, so please do ABC, which is in direct opposition to XYZ.
It was usually more like:
Leader: Joe Believer, I know that you think that they bible says XYZ, but your thinking is faulty, it really means ABC...look, it says so in the Blue Book, and check out this Greek word here, and 'Y' is a forgery by those Trinitarians. So if you really want to do the Word you'll abandon your rebellious thinking and do ABC.
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rascal
Geisha, I know what happened to me, and what I viewed happen to others.
Scripture says to do thus...twi leader says...yeah but you need to do such.
The seeming discrepancies were chalked up to either a lack in our understanding, a lack of spiritual maturity, or unreliable translations.
Time and again we were told that we must do that which was contrary to scriptures, contrary to what was best for ourselves or our children, contrary to our desires in order to remain in the center of God`s will, in order to not give satan access to our lives.
Say what you will, I know what I experienced and how horrendous abuse was justified, condoned and excused in God`s name entirely contrary to what scriptures actually say.
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geisha779
Rascal,
I am agreeing with you.
I still see justification here by some. On very iffy ground IMHO. Even if the choice was really ours (And I could debate that one) the responsibility lies with the one claiming to be stronger--to keep the weaker from stumbling.
It then becomes THEIR responsibility. They have the power to cause us to stumble. They are to deny themselves to keep us walking upright.
Scripture was ignored---time and time again--I agree--ignored--denied--and twisted--all in God's name. Often to abusive ends. No doubt.
When WhiteDove says--yeah, but we had a choice- In my opinion--that is one small snapshot in a much larger picture--when taken as a whole it paints a very bad portrait of and FOR the abuser. It in no way absolves them. It condems them.
It reminds me of The Way.
So, in my own--and usually unclear way--I was backing you up--because I lived it too.
Oakspear,
Mark this day on your calendar--we agree!!
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WhiteDove
Absolutely you get no argument from me on this!
On the other side of the coin though it is still our responsibility to learn the scripture for ourselves I think it talks about iron sharpening iron. not iron following iron. when the iron is sharpened there is resistance sparks fly sometimes that does not sound passive to me. People are always selling something whether intentional or unintentional, but we don't have to buy what they are selling. I could see the point if it were someone new in the scripture, maybe they would tend to just follow along, but we are talking about people with years of time in the scripture Corps Grads at some point one would think that they are no longer feeding on the milk of others so to speak. A young auto mechanics student might pour water in the gas tank if their teacher told them to, but someone that works on cars for years and spent time in their craft would not blindly do such a thing. Were we not to be students of our craft so to speak?
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lindyhopper
Rainbow Girl, to be clear, I was not calling anyone who believes the testimonies here gullible and stupid. I was just giving the other end of the spectrum from the "prove everything" guy. I believe the testimonies here. In part because of my experience with abuse and my experience with others who've been abused and my TWI experiences. It is also in part because in TWI it was a small world after all and I know a person that I believe is credible and they vouch for so and so and they know some other so and so that I know and on and on. The web is tight and I know all the Way teachings and the bigger picture presented here seems to fit for me, for the most part.
I was also not calling any Christian gullible and stupid. I realize there is more to it, I just don't believe it is rock solid in terms of evidence as Geisha clearly does no matter how many smart people she quotes. There are smart people on both side and idiots on both sides. Intelligence and idiocy know no race, sex, creed, or political affiliation. Well maybe on the later.... kidding
On the other hand, if we were to take our Greasy case to court today against TWI... I'm not sure we could win. I could be wrong. That doesn't make what TWI has done right or our allegations untrue. I never said anything about it being fair or unfair either. It is the reality of the situation, IMO.
Lifted Up said it best. I was thinking the same thing a few weeks back when I deleted a very nasty post I was writing in response to White Dove. If you don't know that the person who is claiming to be abused to be lying, then hold your tongue, cause if they are telling the truth you are hurting them more than you can image.
For all of us that have been hurt and abused by people and friends in TWI, in other groups, and relationships, I don't think not trusting is the answer. We learn from these experiences and hopefully we start to learn better ways to get to know people and better ways to approach groups and how and when and how much we allow them into our lives. Hopefully with all the finger pointing and blame laying and truth telling and conscience clearing we've learned something about ourselves in the process and are better off for it and can prove it by our interactions with others.
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WordWolf
You're misusing the term "libel" again.
Since you must not mean to derail this discussion,
we can pick this back up on the thread about libel,
which is here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=17741
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RainbowsGirl
(((Lindy and All))), I did understand your intent. I added it into my post, because I knew
that elements of my statements may appear to some as naive and gullible. When I said that I validated WD's
defense of maligning or impugning anyone's reputation; it is in fact victimizing them...whether or not they
Victimized You first or not all, it is still victimizing. It hurts as much as any other form of abuse. Do we abuse,
because we were abused??? Then it never ends and we stop trying to prevent it
I validated Rascal and Geisha and all victims likewise for defending the victims from being re victimized. We
have all been victims and even victimizers at times. Sometimes intentionally people set out to victimize others
from a deviously conceived purpose within themselves. Most of us never intentionally victimize anyone. It is a
result of poor judgment or misunderstanding; some unintentioned action that hurt someone to .
Then there are all the degrees of intent in between unintentional and intentional actions.
I was in essence trying to say that it is right to valiantly defend against victimization and to also say that we
can only go so far into this quest, because of our limited knowledge in the individual person’s life or testimony. That
only GOD and the person testifying know what is the whole truth and that bearing false wittiness is a very serious
matter with GOD.
Whether we accuse, judge, or convict people in our own minds and hearts...Here , there or anywhere; is a moot
point.
GOD is the only judge who judges rightly, justly and fairly. He is the only one with a wide enough lens in His
eyes to see all..through and through!
I see the many different sides of victim and victimization and sadly it is something we All continually do to one
another all the time...sometimes even unknowingly. That is why we are to endeavor to love our neighbor as
ourselves.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Yet if we have been victimized so much that our trust is damaged and eroded or we have become so hurt and
angry we have difficulty getting past it; we can unknowingly victimize or revictimize people by acting out our
victimization on them. No one goes unscathed, we all have been hurt and abused in some manner or another!
Can't we use our resourses to better help one another. As an example: Lindy and WhiteDove
are brilliant resourseful men. Geisha and Rascal have champion hearts filled with Love and deep compassion
and the courage of Lions; and the wisdom to match anyone! We ALL have special and unique capacities
and gifts to give in Love:
1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the
body?
1Cr 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the
body?
1Cr 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where
[were] the smelling?
1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Cr 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?
1Cr 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.
1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I
have no need of you.
1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow
more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.
1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given
more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:
1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care
one for another.
1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all
the members rejoice with it.
1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
The Following quote is from The Evan in Abi's, "Losing the Way Kristine
Skegell
Thread"...and I have never heard it put so well and IMHO indisputably correctly so! "Keith, I
think the short answer is that deviant sexual predators have an uncanny 'nose' for the vulnerable, those
whose fences aren't solidly in place. People that have been abused simply don't have the equipment to escape
on their own and the abuser senses this. It's heartbreaking to think that the most fragile...those on need of
gentlest treatment, instead got carefully set up and abused in the most callous manner."
The Evan!!!!!! I applaud You for your astounding wisdom and insight
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geisha779
Rainbowsgirl,
I got your point--we are to love-- even our enemies--let God be the judge--although, we are to be wise. We don't set ourselves up a determininer-in-cheif. If someone is lying about something like abuse--and I imagine that is rare--doesn't that itself sound like a cry for help? So, either way, there are Godly responses--and then responses that echo TWI doctrine.
Lindyhopper,
I have missed you! :) Don't believe me? I thought of you the other day---when I was musing over something I read--my line of thought brought me around to a GS discussion--and then something you had said. I prayed for you. Glad to see you here.
I don't think the "Case for Christ" is air tight. I believe it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt--if one looks at it objectively. If you ever get that old itch to look at it yourself---Lee Strobel has a great book called (Drumroll please) The Case for Christ. Also Ravi Zacharias is an awesome guy. Teaches at Oxford--when not traveling the globe--speaking to some of the most influential people in the world. He spoke at the UN this year. I am reading his book called
The End of Reason a response to the new atheists. You should take a look at his life and credentials--hardened atheist to begin with. RC Sprouls is a Christian philosopher who is very interesting to read or listen to. So, if you ever get curious again--there are some great Christian brains out there.
Just as an aside--I have had the honor of meeting some of the "brains" that go around debating atheists. Wow, Lindy--I have met VP and the crew--the difference is just shocking--shocking. A true Christian mind--a false teacher wannabe--no comparison. These people who truly know the Lord--SHINE.
What always gets me are the ones who set out to prove the bible wrong--the ardent skeptics--who come to Christ kicking and screaming--they are some of the most amazing witnesses for Him.
Whitedove,
If we are to know the scriptures? What is the excuse for your posts here? We are to know them and what. . . . . twist them. . . . . back up our own rationale with them. . . . use them as a weapon to hurt. . . . what? What do they tell us to do--over and over--seems rainbowsgirl has it figured out.
I submit to you--we learned a deviant form of scripture--built on the faultiest of premises--taught with the sickest intentions and used to control. So for me, your whole argument is moot and just a perpetuation of the same doggedly "hardline" aberrant Christianity which left so many--the walking wounded.
As much as I hurt for the victims--part of me really hurts for you as well. It does, because it appear-seems-looks like--your need to be "Right" overrides your ability to reason and be compassionate. That is what clinging to TWI doctrine and the idols who sold it to us--result in. I could be wrong about you--these posts are just a snap-shot--but, I went back and really looked at yours.
Did you ever know VP? Howard--Craig?
Is it worth it to one day stand before God and say--yeah, but I thought I was right--that is why I didn't hear the cry from those asking for love, compassion, respect and trust while telling us their story?
You do NOT want to be standing with these guys on that day.
You said it yourself--"Words are cheap" Students of our craft--Not crafty with words!
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rascal
That was compassionate.
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JeffSjo
Hi Waysider,
Thank you for starting this thread. I have to say that when I looked at it for the first time yesterday that I felt terrible about my misstatement of Wierwille's actions with his daughters. As it relates to that point, in the Christian Soldiers thread I still think that a real marines response to Wierwille's actions with his daughters would not change, and thus the essence (as you say) is the same.
But in my splinter group struggles one of the things that I faced was the neccesity of quoting people correctly and remembering things accurately. If I didn't happen to be fairly good at that I don't think that I would have been able to make it through the seemingly endless mindgames that they threw at me. For the most part they couldn't say anything when I reminded them of what they did, because I had it right. This is why, when you pointed out my error, it pretty much wrecked the rest of my day yesterday, because these things are important to me.
When someone contradicts eyewitness testimony they need to have facts themselves. Otherwise to me, they are just casting doubt on somebody without providing anything substantive themselves. In such cases, IMO most often, they are only disputing the witness in order to bully and/or limit the impact of the testimony. They are the ones whose motives need to be questioned as they are argumentative but not substantive. Style but no substance if you will.
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