This really struck me. . . . as Vince Finnegan's group has been mentioned a few times on this thread. Now, I may have my groups wrong on this, BUT isn't one of the "Outreach" Partners listed on Finnegan's site The Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith?????
Isn't this a BREAKAWAY group from the Worldwide Church of God ? Herbert W Armstrong's group? Isn't this affiliated with the Church of God General Council??
Much of the main church under new leadership--APOLOGIZED for its abuses and went MAINSTREAM in their doctrine. The group Vince Finnegan aligns himself with brokeaway and refused to do this.
There are websites JUST LIKE THIS ONE--with former members telling horrific stories of bondage and ABUSE. According to them--they gave 30% of their income to support the lifestyles of Armstrong and his son. False teachers--just like VP. Look into it. Mass corruption--criminal fraud--class-action lawsuits--leaders living large off the tithes. Echoes of TWI on a much LARGER scale.
Splintered when the big guy died!
This group Finnegan has as an outreach partnership with--broke away. . . . . . when the group said sorry and reformed. . . . . they didn't do this!!
How is this ANY different!! I don't think it is---just a splinter group from a larger cult. That is all it is--new cult--differing beliefs---same wreckage left in its wake.
Armstrong taught British Israelism--same stuff-different face. All of it so darn similar as to be scary. Same conspiracy junk. Different bondage is all.
Finnegan hasn't changed--other than his cult affiliation.
I am sure that many will disagree, but this is IMHO
The Church of God Abrahamic Faith is not, nor ever was, associated with the Worldwide Church of God. It started as a loose collection of independent churches who were seeing the same things in the Scriptures back in the 1800's, and formed a General Conference in 1921, mainly for the purposes of combining resources. There was never any one top leader that got "special insight" like many of the cults. They were set apart from most other churches because of their rejection of the Trinity, their view of unconsciousness at death rather than going to heaven, and their belief in the coming Kingdom of God on earth. See more on their site.
The only link to Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God is that a number of Abrahamic Faith people used to be with WWCOG, including Anthony Buzzard, who is a prominent Abrahamic Faith teacher. He got out of Armstrong's cult a number of years ago, and found Abrahamic Faith after searching for a bit, as have a number of other ex-members of cults. This seems (to me and those other ex-cult-members) to be because Anthony's theology is sound, based on a combination of genuine scholarship and commom sense, with a clear Scriptural foundation.
Vince Finnegan was introduced to Anthony Buzzard and Abrahamic Faith when he began seeing the Kingdom of God message in the Bible, which is a completely different mindset from that which we were taught in TWI. He learned about the Kingdom of God from another ex-Way local leader in New York state, but later had a falling out because of that other leader's more Way-like attitude of "we are right and everyone else is wrong." Rather than the old controlling and manipulating that TWI used to do, I have only seen a genuine heart to serve. He's not perfect, as he would be the first to admit, but Vince has changed his views on many many subjects over the past few years, which to me demonstrates a humility which few ex-Ways display. Rather than trying to preserve what was taught or hanging onto the old ways (as so many ex-Way and ex-Armstrong splinter groups do), he has continued to seek the truth.
Hope this finds you well. I know exactly who Sir Anthony Buzzard is--and why he says he left Church of god. He was pretty close to Armstrong from what I can gather.
His fellowship is on several lists of breakaway offshoots from COG(Splinter groups). In fact, that link I provided has his fellowship listed.
It is a very comprehensive list.
Didn't he separate from WCG when it went mainstream and help the Church of God General Council?
Isn't one of the groups on Vince's outreach partner link Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith?
Really, it is like saying Vince isn't a TWI offshoot anymore because he has some new theology. Still built on the same foundation though.
Either way, this is America and we are free to choose what we will. I just took you up on your offer to really look at Vince's site.
He just realigned himself with a differing offshoots of a bigger cult. A few changes but, the same. That is my opinion. You are entitled to yours.
You're right, we all have the right to interpret the facts as we see fit. My response to your opinions had nothing to do with whether or not you agree with his current theology. All I was saying is that your opinion of Vince seems to be based on things that happened in the past, and it colors your view of what he's trying to do now. But that is, as you say, your right.
My original point was that when he said nothing about his involvement with TWI, John Juedes implied that he was "hiding something," but when he writes of the positions and responsibilities he had, you imply that he is boasting or not being humble. I guess you can't please everyone.
Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying.
hi again mark!
thanks for your courteous reply..........always nice to enjoy civil dialogue here at the greasespot........your time and thoughtfulness in providing input to this thread is appreciated.
your point about my "opinion of vince" seeming to be based on things that happened in the past, is partly true.......i have not had any personal contact with vinny since 1986, when i resigned from my "job" in twi........while i received literally hundreds of phone calls from twi "leadership" after i resigned, and literally thousands more once we had safely moved from ohio to our own private residence in the northeastern US..........vince was not one of those calls........jalvis, after having been fired from twi in april, 1987, tried several different times to talk with vinny about what was going on in and with twi at that time, but vinny was rather standoff-ish, to put it mildly........jalvis encouraged vinny to talk with me, (since vinny wanted nothing to do with jalvis), but as far as vinny was concerned, i was as "possessed and bitter" about "everything" as vinny presumed jalvis to be, based primarily on what vinny's leader, geer, was communicating to his hapless followers in the USA........the "limb leadership" of which geer had stated during the "clergy meeting" at new knoxville in november of 1986, "at least 50%" were "possessed by or under the direct influence of devil spirits".........LOL!.......the "official" twi stance, as prescribed by geer, was that all those who had signed that "infamous" 37-page letter written to the then twi bot, and then distributed to a wider group of twi followers jalvis had on his "mailing list", were to "please be so good as to cease communicating" with twi "leadership", because we were so "copped out" that even just reading that letter would cause the readers to become "possessed" themselves!.........again, LOL!..........so, in faithful allegiance to the new twi mog, vinny never contacted me then or since........i'm assuming he did this to keep himself "spiritually clean", as well as financially solvent.
as far as my "view of what he's trying to do now", i must honestly say, that it is not based on what vinny did or didn't do 20 years ago, but what he's doing today..........i've read his website, examined some of his "current teachings", and i've followed the cyber-trail of the churches, "seminaries", and "accreditation credentials" of the same.........like atlanta bible college, the "seminary" you mentioned, where vinny's associate pastor, and son, sean, graduated from, and is on the faculty!......it's "accreditation" is as meaningful and valid as that of pike's peak "seminary" from which vic got his "doctorate".........here's a link you may want to check out about "accrediting commission international".........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accrediting_Commission_International................seems vinny is following the same patterns his father-in-the-word taught him so well , and for which vinny "will always remain thankful"!.............as i stated in a previous post, vinny's "credentials" as a legitimate "christian leader" or pastor, are as phoney as vic's, and rely totally upon his followers' acceptance of his twi "ordination" and "resume".........which is understandable when you remember that vinny's "new ministry" is supported by a "membership" comprised predominantly of ex-wayfers.............like i said.......no skin off my nose............"just for the sake of accuracy".
"Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying."
the "fact" that most of the other splinter groups see him as "radically different", imho, just demonstrates that the blinder are judging the blind. why should i care what the cults competing with each other for their share of ex-wayfers think about each other? regardless of the shameless, misguided egos of twi offshoot "leaders", they are all willfully stuck in their own versions of vic's "ministry".......each trying to prove to their ex-twi base, that they're "closer to the original", or more "biblically accurate" than the other!.......while publicly proclaiming their superior doctrinal purity or structural distinctions from twi, in order to procure for themselves the necessary financial support or "partnering" which will insulate them from having to go out and get a "real job", or a "real education" in the "real world"!
who supervises these "leaders"? who holds them accountable for their teachings, practices, "christian counseling", and their "ministering"?........who certifies and/or accredits their leadership?.....or their "classes"?...... or their myriad "books and publications"?.......or their "leadership training programs"?......or their "seminaries"?.........oh.......i forgot!.........god does!........or, they can all be lined up and checked out according to "the greatness of the accuracy of god's word, rightly divided"!.......sic!............what "spritual" or structural checks and balances have they incorporated into their "ministries" to prevent them from repeating the same horribly destructive "mistakes" vic "stumbled" into?........who objectively stands guard against the blindness of their intellectual pride, and the accuracy of their "biblical research", or textual criticism?.......what, besides their former positions in twi, or their heroic accomplishments as way corps grads, qualifies them to be genuine, legitimate "christian leaders"? who ordained them as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers"?...............and, who does their books, financially?......who determines their salaries?.......who directs the allocations of their funds?...........who validates their "expenses"?........................WHO'S MINDING THE STORE???
those are the questions i ask in the process of formulating my thoughts and opinions regarding vinny's twi offshoot, and all the rest of the various twi offshoots/splinter groups. the honest answers to those questions are what "colors my view" of what vinny's "doing now", or cff, stfi, liberating ministriesfor christ international, word promotions, word centered productions, s.o.w.e.r.s., akribos theological seminary, michael rood ministries, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum!.........imho, these self-styled, "christian ministries" are all the illegitimate children of twi's founder!........despite the volumes of verbiage, publications, bible classes, "research" and fellowships they use to distance themselves from that mean-spirited, alcoholic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator and pervert who "fathered them in god's word", the false humility, hatred and intolerance of vic's "ministry" lives on in them and through them!...............that's all i'm saying........................................peace.
I know exactly who Sir Anthony Buzzard is--and why he says he left Church of god. He was pretty close to Armstrong from what I can gather.
His fellowship is on several lists of breakaway offshoots from COG(Splinter groups). In fact, that link I provided has his fellowship listed.
Anthony Buzzard was also fairly closely associated with CES for a while when it was in its discovery season. CES sold his book. Then there was a falling out over something.
Geisha, most Churches of God are either Pentecostal or Adventist. COG of the Abrahamic Faith rejects tongues, and is Unitarian, more like Meggiddo Missions/Ministries.They do not accept other Churches of God.
Hope this finds you well. I know exactly who Sir Anthony Buzzard is--and why he says he left Church of god. He was pretty close to Armstrong from what I can gather.
His fellowship is on several lists of breakaway offshoots from COG(Splinter groups). In fact, that link I provided has his fellowship listed.
It is a very comprehensive list.
That list includes people that ever had anything to do with WCG in any way, shape or form. In fact it says at the top of the list, "This list contains addresses of various churches, fellowships, study groups, websites and service-providing organizations that trace a history back to the Worldwide Church of God." It lists Restoration Fellowship only because Anthony himself was once in WCG. Restoration Fellowship is simply the name he uses for his website, and for a loose affiliation of like-minded people in various parts of the world. It is not an organization with members nor is it a cult, and definitely not an offshoot of Armstrong's organization.
Anthony Buzzard was a leader in that cult--left when they renounced unitarianism and apologized for the abuse.
They hadn't actually been Unitarian, but "Binitarian" - they believed Jesus and God were two members of a "God Family." But they did renounce that doctrine later.
Didn't he separate from WCG when it went mainstream and help the Church of God General Council?
No. Anthony left the WCG back in 1972 when he saw much corruption in the organization. He had been involved since 1958, and I believe he knew Armstrong personally, though I'm not sure how well. The WCG went "mainstream" and accepted the Trinity after Armstrong's death in 1986 - long after Anthony Buzzard was no longer with them.
Isn't one of the groups on Vince's outreach partner link Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith?
Really, it is like saying Vince isn't a TWI offshoot anymore because he has some new theology. Still built on the same foundation though.
Either way, this is America and we are free to choose what we will. I just took you up on your offer to really look at Vince's site.
He just realigned himself with a differing offshoots of a bigger cult. A few changes but, the same. That is my opinion. You are entitled to yours.
The confusion here is the common use of the phrase "Church of God." The Church of God General Conference is the official name of the denomination that Anthony Buzzard is associated with. It is also known as the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith, because many of the individual churches in that denomination have that as part of their name, and it helps to distinguish them from other groups with "Church of God" and even "General Conference" in their names.
As I mentioned in my previous post, the Church of God General Conference, or Church of God Abrahamic Faith, have NEVER been associated with Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. They started in the 1800's and officially organized the conference in 1921. Anthony, after leaving Armstrong's WCG in 1972, got involved with the Abrahamic Faith church, and was a teacher at Atlanta Bible College for many years since then. (He is semi-retired now.)
As for his association with CES, he agreed with their book on the Trinity, and their stance on the dead not being conscious. He still talks to a few of their leaders, particularly John Shoenheit, but they disagree on dispensationalism, water baptism, and a few other things.
BTW, Atlanta Bible College is having difficulty with accreditation because they would have to sign a statement of beliefs which includes the Trinity. They are trying to find other ways around that currently.
It is this Church of God, Abrahamic Faith, that is listed as an "outreach partner" on Vince's site, as is Anthony's Restoration Fellowship. There are no organizational ties with either group, but only a cooperation and mutual respect, based on a shared set of doctrines. They go to each other's conferences and they confer on various matters, even though they disagree on a few issues, such as water baptism and the manifestations of holy spirit. Vince even travelled to Africa recently with a few other teachers from Atlanta Bible College. Leaders in TWI would never have aligned themselves with people from other groups, as they had the attitude of "we are the ones with the truth." The other ex-Way leader in NY had that attitude and disassociated himself with Vince, but Vince is not above dialoguing with others and learning more.
As for the organizational structure of Vince's church, it was put in place when the split from TWI first happened, and yes, many of the ex-ways in the Albany/Latham, NY area stood with him. That's how the group started, and you can't undo the past. As some pointed out over on the "Will You Ever Be De-Wayed" thread, whether you continue to push the old TWI party line depends on your reason for leaving, and some (myself included) wrote about starting off trying to do so, and later realizing the error of it. But a lot has happened since then that I believe changed his heart and attitude, and I don't see his organization putting money and power before the teaching of the Word, as TWI did, nor is there the world-wide domination that TWI had. The outreach partners around the world are associated because they agree with what he's teaching and see the advancement of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to be more important than organizational structure. I'm sure there are things that could be done better, in terms of organization, but the heart that I've seen is leagues away from the abuse and misinformation that were the hallmarks of TWI.
I agree with DWBH in this respect--blind judging the blinder as far as the cults and offshoots are concerned--I also think that it really doesn't matter what they want to call themselves now, then, or later. They all spring from polluted water IMHO.
However, the fact that " Atlanta Bible College is having difficulty with accreditation because they would have to sign a statement of beliefs which includes the Trinity. They are trying to find other ways around that currently" ought to be speaking VOLUMES.
But I don't want a doctrinal debate. I just have to really wonder sometimes if a statement like this should not really speak to us.
Mark, nice response--you did miss my point-but I understand(I was in TWI) but, I do wish you nothing but good.
Besides the "leaders" of these splinter groups...........another WHOLE ASPECT of this issue revolves around the followers of these offshoots.
For instance.....one doesn't have to venture much further than the CES/STI group to see major flaws in their model structure and the "spiritual DNA" from twi (as DWBH has noted several times). Although CES fronts its "biblical research" in their books, website, etc..........there was this DESTRUCTIVE "PERSONAL PROPHECY" DOCTRINE in their midst accompanied by a high prophetess, and prophets, and council......wherein lives and marriages were shipwrecked against the shores of unaccountability.
And further............"prophecies" were turning dark, and ugly, and vicious, and "nose spiders" were inhabiting the ranks..!!! And......STILL......no "light bulbs" went off in the CES upper ranks UNTIL THIS BECAME FULL-BLOWN ON GREASESPOT....OUT IN THE OPEN FOR ALL CES-FOLLOWERS TO SEE AND READ.
What about the people....???????
YEARS and YEARS.....AFTER LEAVING TWI......these offshoot followers are still being led away, following a "pied-piper".......being fleeced in the name of God. For some.....it looks like from 1988-2007......19 MORE YEARS.......some continued on the hype of being "the true remnant to stand for God."
And, I know several who've left the geerite group too..!!
I agree with DWBH in this respect--blind judging the blinder as far as the cults and offshoots are concerned--I also think that it really doesn't matter what they want to call themselves now, then, or later. They all spring from polluted water IMHO.
However, the fact that " Atlanta Bible College is having difficulty with accreditation because they would have to sign a statement of beliefs which includes the Trinity. They are trying to find other ways around that currently" ought to be speaking VOLUMES.
Not sure what you mean here. What should that statement be saying?
But I don't want a doctrinal debate. I just have to really wonder sometimes if a statement like this should not really speak to us.
Mark, nice response--you did miss my point-but I understand(I was in TWI) but, I do wish you nothing but good.
And further............"prophecies" were turning dark, and ugly, and vicious, and "nose spiders" were inhabiting the ranks..!!! And......STILL......no "light bulbs" went off in the CES upper ranks UNTIL THIS BECAME FULL-BLOWN ON GREASESPOT....OUT IN THE OPEN FOR ALL CES-FOLLOWERS TO SEE AND READ.
Just nothing new under the sun.
I came here in 2005 to tell what was going on at CES/STF. I considered myself that one voice of dissent who held an "outsider's" view of what they were doing and said THEN that they lacked the balance of opposing viewpoints that is necessary in any organization, particularly one that sprouts from an organization that was proven to use the techniques of control.
Anyone, ANYONE who spoke out was branded as possessed with "sorrow". If you look back, one of its faithful was quick to point out the nasty things that were said about me during personal prophecy, which I guess was used as a human resource tool.
I didn't care. They weren't ever the source of my strength or subsistence. These were not people I socialized with or invited to my home, or even really broke bread with.
Personal Prophecy? For me it was nothing more than a silly parlor game. It might as well have been Tarot cards, or visiting a medium. It's all under the same umbrella.
They had a wonderful guy there - Billy - who was so underutilized and he worked a job that he hated. It never occurred to them to give him something to do that he enjoyed. More sad than that - it never occurred to him to ask to do something different. As a "church" they could have been raising him up to be a youth minister, which was what he really liked to do, instead he was answering the phone and taking phone orders. That's the kind of stuff I pointed out, and that's what I was doing that made me "possessed".
Yep, that's how far "out there" I was in my thinking; according to their world.
I don't have a lot of knowledge about any of the other remnants. What I do now is simply stay away from them all. There isn't enough wheat in any of them to sift through the chaff to get to it.
Last time--my point to you is that Buzzard came out of COG--a VERY VERY nasty group. Makes TWI look like a Sunday picinic. He was close to its leader--Armstrong, accused of incest BTW. He, Buzzard, was a leader.
He left over doctrinal issues. At least that is what he has told many. I have read--later than 1972
He started Church of God -General Council--
He has changed some of his theology--but still has ads in former COG publications--he has not cut all his COG ties.
Believe whatEVER revisionist history you want. Some here still think VP was a good guy. THere are plenty of TWI offshoots who have members who think their leader was the "good guy"--got rid of the chaffe and have integrity.
You yourself said Vince has changed--I wonder if that is because you agree with more of his theology.
For me--I stay away from all former cult leaders--whether it be my own little personal cornfield cult--the Branch Dividians or The Church Of God.
I am funny like that---aberrant theology equals aberrant lifestyle.
I tend to gravitate towards teachers who NEVER participated in groups that tore down countless human beings in the name of God.
Last time--my point to you is that Buzzard came out of COG--a VERY VERY nasty group. Makes TWI look like a Sunday picinic. He was close to its leader--Armstrong, accused of incest BTW. He, Buzzard, was a leader.
He left over doctrinal issues. At least that is what he has told many. I have read--later than 1972
He started Church of God -General Council--
He has changed some of his theology--but still has ads in former COG publications--he has not cut all his COG ties.
Believe whatEVER revisionist history you want. Some here still think VP was a good guy. THere are plenty of TWI offshoots who have members who think their leader was the "good guy"--got rid of the chaffe and have integrity.
This isn't revisionist history that I've been writing. From talks that Anthony has given on more than one occasion, in addition to what I have personally heard him say when I was at Atlanta Bible College, it was 1972 when he left the Worldwide Church of God. He did NOT start the Church of God General Conference (aka Church of God Abrahamic Faith). He joined that church which had already existed for many years, after he left Armstrong's group. They are a completely seperate organization that has never had anything to do with Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. I know this from my personal experience with them, or you can read it on their website if you don't believe me. And the only "ties" he has to Armstrong's WCG is the fact that he used to belong to that group, and so has that in common with other ex-Armstrong people. He speaks often against the terrible things that went on in that cult.
You yourself said Vince has changed--I wonder if that is because you agree with more of his theology.
Partly, but also because I lived in New York (though not in Vince's area of Latham/Albany) and personally spoke with him on several occasions. I also saw his humility at accepting doctrines which radically departed from what TWI had taught. In addition I witnessed the way he handled being vilified by the other ex-Way leader in NY who "marked and avoided" him and anyone that had anything to do with him or Anthony Buzzard, even though they held most of the same doctrines. When I was kicked out of that other leader's church (in Syracuse), Vince called me on the phone to see how I was doing and asked if there was anything he could do. As I have said, he's not perfect and I don't agree with everything he teaches, but he has come a long way from the abuse and lying of TWI.
For me--I stay away from all former cult leaders--whether it be my own little personal cornfield cult--the Branch Dividians or The Church Of God.
I am funny like that---aberrant theology equals aberrant lifestyle.
I tend to gravitate towards teachers who NEVER participated in groups that tore down countless human beings in the name of God.
That is my point.
Take Care
I feel the same way, but my point is that not everyone who ever participated in a cult in the past is still promoting the cult's agenda. If "aberrant theology equals aberrant lifestyle" why can't a change in theology be accompanied by a change in lifestyle? Many who post here can tell you how they've moved past the cult mentality and have found new ways of serving God and teaching His people. While it's true that MOST of TWI's offshoots still hold to VPW's doctrines and practices, it is not true of ALL of them.
Anyone, ANYONE who spoke out was branded as possessed with "sorrow". If you look back, one of its faithful was quick to point out the nasty things that were said about me during personal prophecy, which I guess was used as a human resource tool.
I didn't care. They weren't ever the source of my strength or subsistence. These were not people I socialized with or invited to my home, or even really broke bread with.
Personal Prophecy? For me it was nothing more than a silly parlor game. It might as well have been Tarot cards, or visiting a medium. It's all under the same umbrella.
SO..........where is the "spiritual perception and awareness" that these offshoot "leadeers" boast of and perpetuate?? Where?? When things like momentus and "nose spiders" are allowed to roam freely to those who seemingly are sanctified in Christ.......WHERE ARE THE WATCHMEN???
Time and time again......they hide behind labeling the outspoken ones "possessed." Gee, where have we heard THAT before? Yep, from the same cloth.....they are "wierwille-like"......NOT Christlike.
Yeah.......they hide behind their "research books".....their websites.....their list of beliefs. These offshoot leaders have to be in control.....they have to manipulate you......they masterfully steer every conversation. The pattern of evil was not written by twi......many came before wierwille, and many will follow.
IMO.......wierwille rode on the wings of worldly evil. His timing of the pfal class, just around the zenith of the Jesus movement.......added to his mystique at one time. But no more.
I think you know why I feel the way I do about your new theology and Buzzard. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Why I believe it to be aberrant.
But, I was thinking about you today, and wanted to tell you something. I have been to your website a few times. I even had some people I know look at it--so, I did take the time.
Here is what I did see though, your blog. I cried. I have been praying for you since.
If you ever decide you are looking for something else and want to talk about the Lord Jesus--I am easy to contact and I will do anything I can to help you.
I think you know why I feel the way I do about your new theology and Buzzard. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Why I believe it to be aberrant.
But, I was thinking about you today, and wanted to tell you something. I have been to your website a few times. I even had some people I know look at it--so, I did take the time.
Here is what I did see though, your blog. I cried. I have been praying for you since.
If you ever decide you are looking for something else and want to talk about the Lord Jesus--I am easy to contact and I will do anything I can to help you.
Geisha
Thank you for your concern and prayers.
I do wonder why you consider my "new theology and Buzzard" to be aberrant. Are you still convinced that he or his church is an offshoot of Armstrong's cult?
They had a wonderful guy there - Billy - who was so underutilized and he worked a job that he hated. It never occurred to them to give him something to do that he enjoyed. More sad than that - it never occurred to him to ask to do something different. As a "church" they could have been raising him up to be a youth minister, which was what he really liked to do, instead he was answering the phone and taking phone orders.
That's what I saw on my first visit to TWI HQ - smart and talented people doing menial or even workless jobs. Seriously underutilized. I asked one or two about it and the stock response was that they were happy doing whatever was needed to move the Word, or some variation on that theme. To me, it seemed like they had been bludgeoned into a back alley, but then I thought I was just seeing them at a quiet time. Later, I realized that most of them really were desperately bored.
What a waste. Obviously STFI didn't consider better utilization of ability something worth changing.
thanks for the info on vinny's and your current church.........i was having a little difficulty understanding what is motivating you to spend so much time and more than a little effort promoting and explaining vinny's "new ministry" for all us greasespotters posting on this thread..............so, i too, like geisha, took the time to browse your website, and i followed the link you gave on your post #92 here regarding the COGGC, and ABC.............upon doing so, i now understand much more clearly where you're coming from in all your posts here promoting vinny, anthony buzzard, atlanta bible college, etc.
i'm glad that anthony, vinny, and you have all found a denomination you can all support, and whose doctrines and practices appeal to your current spiritual needs and wants........but, i really think, that, in the future, it would be a little more transparent for you to post this kind of stuff in the doctrinal forum rather than in the about the way forum..........that way, the discussion would not revolve around a twi offshoot, which is really what vinny's LHIM church is, IMO, and probably in the opinion of many other greasespotters.............but, rather, it would revolve around the doctrinal and practical differences between COGCC/ABC, and other churches, denominations, cults, etc.
again, i'm just expressing my opinion here, and i'll tell you why that is my opinion........firstly, let me state why i don't think COGCC is a "mainstream" christian denomination........reason number one is that its flagship college/seminary exists to serve itself, and its member churches.........in order to become a pastor, or member of its "ministerial association", one must attend atlanta bible college, graduate, and meet all the doctrinal and social criteria stipulated at their website...........all of which is legal and "above board" here in the good ole USA, as it should be, imho............but, as i posted before on this thread, atlanta bible college has no valid accreditation from accrediting organizations or institutions that really count, outside of COGCC's own circles!.......point being, a degree from abc, won't get me a job in the real world as it exists outside of COGCC, nor would it afford me the kind of educational credentials that would enable me to be a candidate for "ordination" in any of the established, "mainstream" denominations which require a degree from a legitimately, fully accredited educational institution............which, unfortunately, abc is not.........its accreditation is from "accrediting commission international", which, as i've also posted before, is not recognized by any state governments, the federal government, nor the legally established and govermentally recognized, public, educational accrediting agencies or institutions that offer such accreditation for the benefit and protection of the general public.............abc's accreditation is as "valid" as was that of "the way college of biblical research, indiana campus", the former twi "root locale" from which it granted its associate and bachelor "degrees" in theology for corps grads........not that there's anything wrong with that............it's just that those degrees aren't really worth much in the real world outside of twi........maybe there are more transferrable credits available from abc to fully accredited institutions of higher learning, i don't know.........but, as i said, outside of COGCC's world, a degree from abc doesn't really impress non-COGCC churches or employers......but, again, if COGCC is your church of choice, then none of this stuff really matters to you.
secondly, COGCC will "ordain" or recognize "ordinations" of folks who line up with the criteria they stipulate at their website you linked to in post #92.............since they refer to vinny as "pastor vince finnegan" at that website, and he lists them at his site as "outreach partners", i assume his twi ordination and the rest of his twi resume, along with his personal allegiance to the doctrinal and social requirements, as well as the required "tithes and offerings", and other fees also stipulated on that website you linked to, is what enabled him to be included in COGCC's ministerial association.........and, his sponsorship of his son sean, as his "associate pastor", will qualify sean, who is a graduate of abc, to become ordained by them also, when he meets the requirements listed there for abc grads..........
i noticed that vinny was one of the official COGCC representatives on a recent trip to malawi, africa this past june.......is that the trip you referred to in one of your earlier posts?.......just curious.......who paid for vinny's travel expenses, room and board for that trip?.....LHIM or abc?........and, btw, who monitors/oversees the monies of LHIM, besides members of LHIM? who decides salaries, and other allocations of the "tithes and offerings".LHIM brings in?........i figure you may know, and i've asked you that before on this thread, but i don't think you answered those questions........maybe you can't, or maybe you don't care?...........i don't know.............is LHIM a "member church" of COGCC? according to their constitution as posted on their website, it seems like that would be the case, but i don't know.........do you?
as i said before, i'm glad you and vinny have found a church that you like.........but that doesn't make LHIM any less of a twi offshoot, imho, than stfi, cff, LMCI, michael rood ministries, and all the rest..............i still think that the very existence of LHIM is owed to twi, and the access to and influence over the many ex-wayfers vinny knew and knows in ny, and in other states here in the US, and in the foreign countries he "oversaw" and visited while he was "assistant to the president" in twi from 1977-1984, and limb coordinator of ny from 1984-1989.............the fact remains, that vic's theology and "way tree" organizational structure does not differ all that much from the new denominational home you and vinny have found.......there are some doctrinal differences, as you've pointed out, and, i'm sure there are differences in method and practice, but, after reading both vinny's and COGCC's "statement of beliefs", the similarities are much more apparent than those differences, imho.
again, let me state, that i don't begrudge your or vinny's right to support and promote whatever denomination you want!........one man's church is another man's cult..........and, one man's cult is another man's "rightly divided word of truth", and stairway to heaven.........but i don't really think it's intellectually honest to try and justify vinny's church as having nothing to do with his twi roots and theological indoctrination.......nor is it honest to try to convince me that just because there are some doctrinal and methodological differences between vinny's current church, and his former church of 18 years, twi, that vinny can be freely absolved from the apologies and other repentive acts he still "owes" to a large number of people whom he mistreated in his former "ministry".......nor can you honestly say that vinny's support base of ex-wayfers was not and is not a, if not the major reason for the existence of his current church...........imho, that just ain't so!
please don't take this post as some kind of "personal attack" against you, or against LHIM................that is truly not my heart nor intent........i absolutely respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe, and to promote whatever church you want to.........but, the doctrinal forum here at the greasespot is, imho, a far more appropriate forum for that kind of thing than this about the way forum..........letting vinny tell us his "same old story" here is really not a service to your fellow greasespotters........many of whom may have been despitefully used and /or abused by vinny during his 18 years of faithful service to twi..........i honestly hope you will find continued joy and peace in believing your version of christian truth..........and, i hope you will find the answers and solutions to the questions and stressors you mention in your blog entry of july, this year on your website.......i'd also appreciate it if you encourage vinny to come here and speak for himself, if he wants, rather than to have you speak for him or his offshoot.................thanks again mark, and..........................................peace.
Thanks. It's the first time I realized and clicked on it.
I started it to put together the message of the Kingdom of God that I have learned over the past several years. I included references to what I used to believe, so that other ex-Ways could identify with where I've come from and what I've learned from the Bible since then.
I have found that this overall message is not limited to any particular group, and is not something that any one person got "special insight" about. Many people from all different backgrounds have seen it and realized how it makes the whole Bible fit together. They have started seeing this, and realizing that the Gospel of the Kingdom is the primary message that Jesus preached and taught. He also said that this Gospel would be preached to the whole world, and then the end would come (Matt. 24:14). My website is my small part in that.
The more important question is not "who is teaching the truth?" but "what IS the truth?" All the arguments about who associates with whom, and who stands with what group, is IMO just carnal thinking like what Paul referred to in I Cor. 1:10ff.
You're right about ABC/COGGC not being "mainstream." Most other "mainstream" denominations consider them at least misguided if not a cult, because they reject the Trinity. And you're also right about ABC mainly serving its own denomination and not being able to grant a degree that means anything outside of the denomination. This is actually a problem that they are aware of, and have talked about with the students. They have a problem getting the accreditation they want because of their rejection of the Trinity. I've heard that they are trying other avenues, but I don't know exactly what.
As far as I know, Vince's church is not "officially" a COGGC church, even though they agree on most doctrines. They recognize Vince's "pastorship" but they don't believe in lifetime ordinations like TWI and other ex-TWI groups do. They don't use the title "Reverend" if you notice. They have qualified candidates apply for a minister's license which is renewed every so often, and the title of Pastor is related to a person's position in a local church. As such, I don't know what Vince's "official" status is regarding their ministerial association.
Yes, the trip to Africa was the one I mentioned. I don't know who sponsored or funded Vince's involvement though.
I don't know about who monitors the money, salaries, etc. in Vince's church. I live in a different part of the country and haven't been involved with the day to day running of his ministry. I agree that it would be interesting to find out.
I think you're right about the Doctrinal forum being the best place to discuss the doctrinal differences. I only brought this up here because you and a few others said that ALL of the offshoots are just trying to keep VPW's doctrine and practices alive. While there is no denying that LHIM is a TWI offshoot, I see very little resemblance to the old ministry, outside of saying that the Bible is God-inspired, that God is one not three, and that the dead are unconscious. Their focus is on what God has done, specifically the Gospel of the Kingdom. They don't teach the "law of believing" or that the holy spirit is now "our spirit" that we must nurture and develop. They also don't make abundance in this life a priority, but recognize that this world is fallen and there will be suffering until Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom on earth.
Besides doctrinal differences, I also see little resemblance in the structure either. As far as I can tell, while they have various local "home fellowships" they are not organized in a Way-tree like structure, with leaders answering to their superiors up several levels. And I don't think Vince or anyone else decrees "official" doctrine which everyone must submit to, as in the Way. There are a number of doctrinal areas where different opinions are entertained, and even disagreements are allowed. For example, Vince and his son Sean still disagree on water baptism.
As for encouraging him to post here, I don't have his email address (I actually don't think he has one, or at least it's not on the site). But I do have Sean's email address and have written to him before. I'll mention this thread to him and see if he'll pass it on to his dad.
Thanks for your intelligent and civil discussion. Peace to you as well.
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geisha779
There is help for people trying to recover from these splinter groupshttp://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/
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Mark Clarke
The Church of God Abrahamic Faith is not, nor ever was, associated with the Worldwide Church of God. It started as a loose collection of independent churches who were seeing the same things in the Scriptures back in the 1800's, and formed a General Conference in 1921, mainly for the purposes of combining resources. There was never any one top leader that got "special insight" like many of the cults. They were set apart from most other churches because of their rejection of the Trinity, their view of unconsciousness at death rather than going to heaven, and their belief in the coming Kingdom of God on earth. See more on their site.
The only link to Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God is that a number of Abrahamic Faith people used to be with WWCOG, including Anthony Buzzard, who is a prominent Abrahamic Faith teacher. He got out of Armstrong's cult a number of years ago, and found Abrahamic Faith after searching for a bit, as have a number of other ex-members of cults. This seems (to me and those other ex-cult-members) to be because Anthony's theology is sound, based on a combination of genuine scholarship and commom sense, with a clear Scriptural foundation.
Vince Finnegan was introduced to Anthony Buzzard and Abrahamic Faith when he began seeing the Kingdom of God message in the Bible, which is a completely different mindset from that which we were taught in TWI. He learned about the Kingdom of God from another ex-Way local leader in New York state, but later had a falling out because of that other leader's more Way-like attitude of "we are right and everyone else is wrong." Rather than the old controlling and manipulating that TWI used to do, I have only seen a genuine heart to serve. He's not perfect, as he would be the first to admit, but Vince has changed his views on many many subjects over the past few years, which to me demonstrates a humility which few ex-Ways display. Rather than trying to preserve what was taught or hanging onto the old ways (as so many ex-Way and ex-Armstrong splinter groups do), he has continued to seek the truth.
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geisha779
Hey Mark,
Hope this finds you well. I know exactly who Sir Anthony Buzzard is--and why he says he left Church of god. He was pretty close to Armstrong from what I can gather.
His fellowship is on several lists of breakaway offshoots from COG(Splinter groups). In fact, that link I provided has his fellowship listed.
It is a very comprehensive list.
Didn't he separate from WCG when it went mainstream and help the Church of God General Council?
Isn't one of the groups on Vince's outreach partner link Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith?
Really, it is like saying Vince isn't a TWI offshoot anymore because he has some new theology. Still built on the same foundation though.
Either way, this is America and we are free to choose what we will. I just took you up on your offer to really look at Vince's site.
He just realigned himself with a differing offshoots of a bigger cult. A few changes but, the same. That is my opinion. You are entitled to yours.
To quote DWBH----Peace
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DontWorryBeHappy
DWBH,
You're right, we all have the right to interpret the facts as we see fit. My response to your opinions had nothing to do with whether or not you agree with his current theology. All I was saying is that your opinion of Vince seems to be based on things that happened in the past, and it colors your view of what he's trying to do now. But that is, as you say, your right.
My original point was that when he said nothing about his involvement with TWI, John Juedes implied that he was "hiding something," but when he writes of the positions and responsibilities he had, you imply that he is boasting or not being humble. I guess you can't please everyone.
Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying.
hi again mark!
thanks for your courteous reply..........always nice to enjoy civil dialogue here at the greasespot........your time and thoughtfulness in providing input to this thread is appreciated.
your point about my "opinion of vince" seeming to be based on things that happened in the past, is partly true.......i have not had any personal contact with vinny since 1986, when i resigned from my "job" in twi........while i received literally hundreds of phone calls from twi "leadership" after i resigned, and literally thousands more once we had safely moved from ohio to our own private residence in the northeastern US..........vince was not one of those calls........jalvis, after having been fired from twi in april, 1987, tried several different times to talk with vinny about what was going on in and with twi at that time, but vinny was rather standoff-ish, to put it mildly........jalvis encouraged vinny to talk with me, (since vinny wanted nothing to do with jalvis), but as far as vinny was concerned, i was as "possessed and bitter" about "everything" as vinny presumed jalvis to be, based primarily on what vinny's leader, geer, was communicating to his hapless followers in the USA........the "limb leadership" of which geer had stated during the "clergy meeting" at new knoxville in november of 1986, "at least 50%" were "possessed by or under the direct influence of devil spirits".........LOL!.......the "official" twi stance, as prescribed by geer, was that all those who had signed that "infamous" 37-page letter written to the then twi bot, and then distributed to a wider group of twi followers jalvis had on his "mailing list", were to "please be so good as to cease communicating" with twi "leadership", because we were so "copped out" that even just reading that letter would cause the readers to become "possessed" themselves!.........again, LOL!..........so, in faithful allegiance to the new twi mog, vinny never contacted me then or since........i'm assuming he did this to keep himself "spiritually clean", as well as financially solvent.
as far as my "view of what he's trying to do now ", i must honestly say, that it is not based on what vinny did or didn't do 20 years ago, but what he's doing today..........i've read his website, examined some of his "current teachings", and i've followed the cyber-trail of the churches, "seminaries", and "accreditation credentials" of the same.........like atlanta bible college, the "seminary" you mentioned, where vinny's associate pastor, and son, sean, graduated from, and is on the faculty!......it's "accreditation" is as meaningful and valid as that of pike's peak "seminary" from which vic got his "doctorate".........here's a link you may want to check out about "accrediting commission international".........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accrediting_Commission_International................seems vinny is following the same patterns his father-in-the-word taught him so well , and for which vinny "will always remain thankful"!.............as i stated in a previous post, vinny's "credentials" as a legitimate "christian leader" or pastor, are as phoney as vic's, and rely totally upon his followers' acceptance of his twi "ordination" and "resume".........which is understandable when you remember that vinny's "new ministry" is supported by a "membership" comprised predominantly of ex-wayfers.............like i said.......no skin off my nose............"just for the sake of accuracy".
"Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying."
the "fact" that most of the other splinter groups see him as "radically different", imho, just demonstrates that the blinder are judging the blind. why should i care what the cults competing with each other for their share of ex-wayfers think about each other? regardless of the shameless, misguided egos of twi offshoot "leaders", they are all willfully stuck in their own versions of vic's "ministry".......each trying to prove to their ex-twi base, that they're "closer to the original", or more "biblically accurate" than the other!.......while publicly proclaiming their superior doctrinal purity or structural distinctions from twi, in order to procure for themselves the necessary financial support or "partnering" which will insulate them from having to go out and get a "real job", or a "real education" in the "real world"!
who supervises these "leaders"? who holds them accountable for their teachings, practices, "christian counseling", and their "ministering"?........who certifies and/or accredits their leadership?.....or their "classes"?...... or their myriad "books and publications"?.......or their "leadership training programs"?......or their "seminaries"?.........oh.......i forgot!.........god does!........or, they can all be lined up and checked out according to "the greatness of the accuracy of god's word, rightly divided"!.......sic!............what "spritual" or structural checks and balances have they incorporated into their "ministries" to prevent them from repeating the same horribly destructive "mistakes" vic "stumbled" into?........who objectively stands guard against the blindness of their intellectual pride, and the accuracy of their "biblical research", or textual criticism?.......what, besides their former positions in twi, or their heroic accomplishments as way corps grads, qualifies them to be genuine, legitimate "christian leaders"? who ordained them as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers"?...............and, who does their books, financially?......who determines their salaries?.......who directs the allocations of their funds?...........who validates their "expenses"?........................WHO'S MINDING THE STORE???
those are the questions i ask in the process of formulating my thoughts and opinions regarding vinny's twi offshoot, and all the rest of the various twi offshoots/splinter groups. the honest answers to those questions are what "colors my view" of what vinny's "doing now", or cff, stfi, liberating ministries for christ international, word promotions, word centered productions, s.o.w.e.r.s., akribos theological seminary, michael rood ministries, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum!.........imho, these self-styled, "christian ministries" are all the illegitimate children of twi's founder!........despite the volumes of verbiage, publications, bible classes, "research" and fellowships they use to distance themselves from that mean-spirited, alcoholic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator and pervert who "fathered them in god's word", the false humility, hatred and intolerance of vic's "ministry" lives on in them and through them!...............that's all i'm saying........................................peace.
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Tzaia
Anthony Buzzard was also fairly closely associated with CES for a while when it was in its discovery season. CES sold his book. Then there was a falling out over something.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Geisha, most Churches of God are either Pentecostal or Adventist. COG of the Abrahamic Faith rejects tongues, and is Unitarian, more like Meggiddo Missions/Ministries.They do not accept other Churches of God.
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mstar1
Great Post DWBH
Heres the LINK to the Accrediting Commission Imternational
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geisha779
Hey thomas,
Thanks--I was speaking of Armstrongism, which is more adventist and VERY unitarian--an even uglier cult than TWI. Hard to believe.
Anthony Buzzard was a leader in that cult--left when they renounced unitarianism and apologized for the abuse.
I know who he is and what he helped create--thanks thomas! :)
Geisha
This is the same thing as saying Vince isn't an offshoot of TWI--because he changed some doctrines--It comes from a duck--but it is really now a swan?
Wish I never brought it up.
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Mark Clarke
That list includes people that ever had anything to do with WCG in any way, shape or form. In fact it says at the top of the list, "This list contains addresses of various churches, fellowships, study groups, websites and service-providing organizations that trace a history back to the Worldwide Church of God." It lists Restoration Fellowship only because Anthony himself was once in WCG. Restoration Fellowship is simply the name he uses for his website, and for a loose affiliation of like-minded people in various parts of the world. It is not an organization with members nor is it a cult, and definitely not an offshoot of Armstrong's organization.
They hadn't actually been Unitarian, but "Binitarian" - they believed Jesus and God were two members of a "God Family." But they did renounce that doctrine later.
No. Anthony left the WCG back in 1972 when he saw much corruption in the organization. He had been involved since 1958, and I believe he knew Armstrong personally, though I'm not sure how well. The WCG went "mainstream" and accepted the Trinity after Armstrong's death in 1986 - long after Anthony Buzzard was no longer with them.
The confusion here is the common use of the phrase "Church of God." The Church of God General Conference is the official name of the denomination that Anthony Buzzard is associated with. It is also known as the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith, because many of the individual churches in that denomination have that as part of their name, and it helps to distinguish them from other groups with "Church of God" and even "General Conference" in their names.
As I mentioned in my previous post, the Church of God General Conference, or Church of God Abrahamic Faith, have NEVER been associated with Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. They started in the 1800's and officially organized the conference in 1921. Anthony, after leaving Armstrong's WCG in 1972, got involved with the Abrahamic Faith church, and was a teacher at Atlanta Bible College for many years since then. (He is semi-retired now.)
As for his association with CES, he agreed with their book on the Trinity, and their stance on the dead not being conscious. He still talks to a few of their leaders, particularly John Shoenheit, but they disagree on dispensationalism, water baptism, and a few other things.
BTW, Atlanta Bible College is having difficulty with accreditation because they would have to sign a statement of beliefs which includes the Trinity. They are trying to find other ways around that currently.
It is this Church of God, Abrahamic Faith, that is listed as an "outreach partner" on Vince's site, as is Anthony's Restoration Fellowship. There are no organizational ties with either group, but only a cooperation and mutual respect, based on a shared set of doctrines. They go to each other's conferences and they confer on various matters, even though they disagree on a few issues, such as water baptism and the manifestations of holy spirit. Vince even travelled to Africa recently with a few other teachers from Atlanta Bible College. Leaders in TWI would never have aligned themselves with people from other groups, as they had the attitude of "we are the ones with the truth." The other ex-Way leader in NY had that attitude and disassociated himself with Vince, but Vince is not above dialoguing with others and learning more.
As for the organizational structure of Vince's church, it was put in place when the split from TWI first happened, and yes, many of the ex-ways in the Albany/Latham, NY area stood with him. That's how the group started, and you can't undo the past. As some pointed out over on the "Will You Ever Be De-Wayed" thread, whether you continue to push the old TWI party line depends on your reason for leaving, and some (myself included) wrote about starting off trying to do so, and later realizing the error of it. But a lot has happened since then that I believe changed his heart and attitude, and I don't see his organization putting money and power before the teaching of the Word, as TWI did, nor is there the world-wide domination that TWI had. The outreach partners around the world are associated because they agree with what he's teaching and see the advancement of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God to be more important than organizational structure. I'm sure there are things that could be done better, in terms of organization, but the heart that I've seen is leagues away from the abuse and misinformation that were the hallmarks of TWI.
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geisha779
Hi,
I agree with DWBH in this respect--blind judging the blinder as far as the cults and offshoots are concerned--I also think that it really doesn't matter what they want to call themselves now, then, or later. They all spring from polluted water IMHO.
However, the fact that " Atlanta Bible College is having difficulty with accreditation because they would have to sign a statement of beliefs which includes the Trinity. They are trying to find other ways around that currently" ought to be speaking VOLUMES.
But I don't want a doctrinal debate. I just have to really wonder sometimes if a statement like this should not really speak to us.
Mark, nice response--you did miss my point-but I understand(I was in TWI) but, I do wish you nothing but good.
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skyrider
Besides the "leaders" of these splinter groups...........another WHOLE ASPECT of this issue revolves around the followers of these offshoots.
For instance.....one doesn't have to venture much further than the CES/STI group to see major flaws in their model structure and the "spiritual DNA" from twi (as DWBH has noted several times). Although CES fronts its "biblical research" in their books, website, etc..........there was this DESTRUCTIVE "PERSONAL PROPHECY" DOCTRINE in their midst accompanied by a high prophetess, and prophets, and council......wherein lives and marriages were shipwrecked against the shores of unaccountability.
And further............"prophecies" were turning dark, and ugly, and vicious, and "nose spiders" were inhabiting the ranks..!!! And......STILL......no "light bulbs" went off in the CES upper ranks UNTIL THIS BECAME FULL-BLOWN ON GREASESPOT....OUT IN THE OPEN FOR ALL CES-FOLLOWERS TO SEE AND READ.
What about the people....???????
YEARS and YEARS.....AFTER LEAVING TWI......these offshoot followers are still being led away, following a "pied-piper".......being fleeced in the name of God. For some.....it looks like from 1988-2007......19 MORE YEARS.......some continued on the hype of being "the true remnant to stand for God."
And, I know several who've left the geerite group too..!!
Just nothing new under the sun.
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Mark Clarke
Not sure what you mean here. What should that statement be saying?
Sorry. What point did I miss?
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Tzaia
I came here in 2005 to tell what was going on at CES/STF. I considered myself that one voice of dissent who held an "outsider's" view of what they were doing and said THEN that they lacked the balance of opposing viewpoints that is necessary in any organization, particularly one that sprouts from an organization that was proven to use the techniques of control.
Anyone, ANYONE who spoke out was branded as possessed with "sorrow". If you look back, one of its faithful was quick to point out the nasty things that were said about me during personal prophecy, which I guess was used as a human resource tool.
I didn't care. They weren't ever the source of my strength or subsistence. These were not people I socialized with or invited to my home, or even really broke bread with.
Personal Prophecy? For me it was nothing more than a silly parlor game. It might as well have been Tarot cards, or visiting a medium. It's all under the same umbrella.
They had a wonderful guy there - Billy - who was so underutilized and he worked a job that he hated. It never occurred to them to give him something to do that he enjoyed. More sad than that - it never occurred to him to ask to do something different. As a "church" they could have been raising him up to be a youth minister, which was what he really liked to do, instead he was answering the phone and taking phone orders. That's the kind of stuff I pointed out, and that's what I was doing that made me "possessed".
Yep, that's how far "out there" I was in my thinking; according to their world.
I don't have a lot of knowledge about any of the other remnants. What I do now is simply stay away from them all. There isn't enough wheat in any of them to sift through the chaff to get to it.
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Ham
and to THIS DAY... js still thinks they have the true biblical "handle" on prophecy.. why, just read their book..
and the game just goes on and on.. anyone with a differing opinion is painted as contaminated, or like in the "sewers".. JUST NOT INVITED.
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geisha779
Hey Mark,
Last time--my point to you is that Buzzard came out of COG--a VERY VERY nasty group. Makes TWI look like a Sunday picinic. He was close to its leader--Armstrong, accused of incest BTW. He, Buzzard, was a leader.
He left over doctrinal issues. At least that is what he has told many. I have read--later than 1972
He started Church of God -General Council--
He has changed some of his theology--but still has ads in former COG publications--he has not cut all his COG ties.
Believe whatEVER revisionist history you want. Some here still think VP was a good guy. THere are plenty of TWI offshoots who have members who think their leader was the "good guy"--got rid of the chaffe and have integrity.
You yourself said Vince has changed--I wonder if that is because you agree with more of his theology.
For me--I stay away from all former cult leaders--whether it be my own little personal cornfield cult--the Branch Dividians or The Church Of God.
I am funny like that---aberrant theology equals aberrant lifestyle.
I tend to gravitate towards teachers who NEVER participated in groups that tore down countless human beings in the name of God.
That is my point.
Take Care
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Mark Clarke
This isn't revisionist history that I've been writing. From talks that Anthony has given on more than one occasion, in addition to what I have personally heard him say when I was at Atlanta Bible College, it was 1972 when he left the Worldwide Church of God. He did NOT start the Church of God General Conference (aka Church of God Abrahamic Faith). He joined that church which had already existed for many years, after he left Armstrong's group. They are a completely seperate organization that has never had anything to do with Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. I know this from my personal experience with them, or you can read it on their website if you don't believe me. And the only "ties" he has to Armstrong's WCG is the fact that he used to belong to that group, and so has that in common with other ex-Armstrong people. He speaks often against the terrible things that went on in that cult.
Partly, but also because I lived in New York (though not in Vince's area of Latham/Albany) and personally spoke with him on several occasions. I also saw his humility at accepting doctrines which radically departed from what TWI had taught. In addition I witnessed the way he handled being vilified by the other ex-Way leader in NY who "marked and avoided" him and anyone that had anything to do with him or Anthony Buzzard, even though they held most of the same doctrines. When I was kicked out of that other leader's church (in Syracuse), Vince called me on the phone to see how I was doing and asked if there was anything he could do. As I have said, he's not perfect and I don't agree with everything he teaches, but he has come a long way from the abuse and lying of TWI.
I feel the same way, but my point is that not everyone who ever participated in a cult in the past is still promoting the cult's agenda. If "aberrant theology equals aberrant lifestyle" why can't a change in theology be accompanied by a change in lifestyle? Many who post here can tell you how they've moved past the cult mentality and have found new ways of serving God and teaching His people. While it's true that MOST of TWI's offshoots still hold to VPW's doctrines and practices, it is not true of ALL of them.
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skyrider
SO..........where is the "spiritual perception and awareness" that these offshoot "leadeers" boast of and perpetuate?? Where?? When things like momentus and "nose spiders" are allowed to roam freely to those who seemingly are sanctified in Christ.......WHERE ARE THE WATCHMEN???
Time and time again......they hide behind labeling the outspoken ones "possessed." Gee, where have we heard THAT before? Yep, from the same cloth.....they are "wierwille-like"......NOT Christlike.
Yeah.......they hide behind their "research books".....their websites.....their list of beliefs. These offshoot leaders have to be in control.....they have to manipulate you......they masterfully steer every conversation. The pattern of evil was not written by twi......many came before wierwille, and many will follow.
IMO.......wierwille rode on the wings of worldly evil. His timing of the pfal class, just around the zenith of the Jesus movement.......added to his mystique at one time. But no more.
<_<
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geisha779
Hey Mark,
I think you know why I feel the way I do about your new theology and Buzzard. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Why I believe it to be aberrant.
But, I was thinking about you today, and wanted to tell you something. I have been to your website a few times. I even had some people I know look at it--so, I did take the time.
Here is what I did see though, your blog. I cried. I have been praying for you since.
If you ever decide you are looking for something else and want to talk about the Lord Jesus--I am easy to contact and I will do anything I can to help you.
Geisha
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Mark Clarke
Thank you for your concern and prayers.
I do wonder why you consider my "new theology and Buzzard" to be aberrant. Are you still convinced that he or his church is an offshoot of Armstrong's cult?
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excathedra
How come you have a site, Mark?
Thanks. It's the first time I realized and clicked on it.
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Twinky
That's what I saw on my first visit to TWI HQ - smart and talented people doing menial or even workless jobs. Seriously underutilized. I asked one or two about it and the stock response was that they were happy doing whatever was needed to move the Word, or some variation on that theme. To me, it seemed like they had been bludgeoned into a back alley, but then I thought I was just seeing them at a quiet time. Later, I realized that most of them really were desperately bored.
What a waste. Obviously STFI didn't consider better utilization of ability something worth changing.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi again mark clarke!
thanks for the info on vinny's and your current church.........i was having a little difficulty understanding what is motivating you to spend so much time and more than a little effort promoting and explaining vinny's "new ministry" for all us greasespotters posting on this thread..............so, i too, like geisha, took the time to browse your website, and i followed the link you gave on your post #92 here regarding the COGGC, and ABC.............upon doing so, i now understand much more clearly where you're coming from in all your posts here promoting vinny, anthony buzzard, atlanta bible college, etc.
i'm glad that anthony, vinny, and you have all found a denomination you can all support, and whose doctrines and practices appeal to your current spiritual needs and wants........but, i really think, that, in the future, it would be a little more transparent for you to post this kind of stuff in the doctrinal forum rather than in the about the way forum..........that way, the discussion would not revolve around a twi offshoot, which is really what vinny's LHIM church is, IMO, and probably in the opinion of many other greasespotters.............but, rather, it would revolve around the doctrinal and practical differences between COGCC/ABC, and other churches, denominations, cults, etc.
again, i'm just expressing my opinion here, and i'll tell you why that is my opinion........firstly, let me state why i don't think COGCC is a "mainstream" christian denomination........reason number one is that its flagship college/seminary exists to serve itself, and its member churches.........in order to become a pastor, or member of its "ministerial association", one must attend atlanta bible college, graduate, and meet all the doctrinal and social criteria stipulated at their website...........all of which is legal and "above board" here in the good ole USA, as it should be, imho............but, as i posted before on this thread, atlanta bible college has no valid accreditation from accrediting organizations or institutions that really count, outside of COGCC's own circles!.......point being, a degree from abc, won't get me a job in the real world as it exists outside of COGCC, nor would it afford me the kind of educational credentials that would enable me to be a candidate for "ordination" in any of the established, "mainstream" denominations which require a degree from a legitimately, fully accredited educational institution............which, unfortunately, abc is not.........its accreditation is from "accrediting commission international", which, as i've also posted before, is not recognized by any state governments, the federal government, nor the legally established and govermentally recognized, public, educational accrediting agencies or institutions that offer such accreditation for the benefit and protection of the general public.............abc's accreditation is as "valid" as was that of "the way college of biblical research, indiana campus", the former twi "root locale" from which it granted its associate and bachelor "degrees" in theology for corps grads........not that there's anything wrong with that............it's just that those degrees aren't really worth much in the real world outside of twi........maybe there are more transferrable credits available from abc to fully accredited institutions of higher learning, i don't know.........but, as i said, outside of COGCC's world, a degree from abc doesn't really impress non-COGCC churches or employers......but, again, if COGCC is your church of choice, then none of this stuff really matters to you.
secondly, COGCC will "ordain" or recognize "ordinations" of folks who line up with the criteria they stipulate at their website you linked to in post #92.............since they refer to vinny as "pastor vince finnegan" at that website, and he lists them at his site as "outreach partners", i assume his twi ordination and the rest of his twi resume, along with his personal allegiance to the doctrinal and social requirements, as well as the required "tithes and offerings", and other fees also stipulated on that website you linked to, is what enabled him to be included in COGCC's ministerial association.........and, his sponsorship of his son sean, as his "associate pastor", will qualify sean, who is a graduate of abc, to become ordained by them also, when he meets the requirements listed there for abc grads..........
i noticed that vinny was one of the official COGCC representatives on a recent trip to malawi, africa this past june.......is that the trip you referred to in one of your earlier posts?.......just curious.......who paid for vinny's travel expenses, room and board for that trip?.....LHIM or abc?........and, btw, who monitors/oversees the monies of LHIM, besides members of LHIM? who decides salaries, and other allocations of the "tithes and offerings".LHIM brings in?........i figure you may know, and i've asked you that before on this thread, but i don't think you answered those questions........maybe you can't, or maybe you don't care?...........i don't know.............is LHIM a "member church" of COGCC? according to their constitution as posted on their website, it seems like that would be the case, but i don't know.........do you?
as i said before, i'm glad you and vinny have found a church that you like.........but that doesn't make LHIM any less of a twi offshoot, imho, than stfi, cff, LMCI, michael rood ministries, and all the rest..............i still think that the very existence of LHIM is owed to twi, and the access to and influence over the many ex-wayfers vinny knew and knows in ny, and in other states here in the US, and in the foreign countries he "oversaw" and visited while he was "assistant to the president" in twi from 1977-1984, and limb coordinator of ny from 1984-1989.............the fact remains, that vic's theology and "way tree" organizational structure does not differ all that much from the new denominational home you and vinny have found.......there are some doctrinal differences, as you've pointed out, and, i'm sure there are differences in method and practice, but, after reading both vinny's and COGCC's "statement of beliefs", the similarities are much more apparent than those differences, imho.
again, let me state, that i don't begrudge your or vinny's right to support and promote whatever denomination you want!........one man's church is another man's cult..........and, one man's cult is another man's "rightly divided word of truth", and stairway to heaven.........but i don't really think it's intellectually honest to try and justify vinny's church as having nothing to do with his twi roots and theological indoctrination.......nor is it honest to try to convince me that just because there are some doctrinal and methodological differences between vinny's current church, and his former church of 18 years, twi, that vinny can be freely absolved from the apologies and other repentive acts he still "owes" to a large number of people whom he mistreated in his former "ministry".......nor can you honestly say that vinny's support base of ex-wayfers was not and is not a, if not the major reason for the existence of his current church...........imho, that just ain't so!
please don't take this post as some kind of "personal attack" against you, or against LHIM................that is truly not my heart nor intent........i absolutely respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe, and to promote whatever church you want to.........but, the doctrinal forum here at the greasespot is, imho, a far more appropriate forum for that kind of thing than this about the way forum..........letting vinny tell us his "same old story" here is really not a service to your fellow greasespotters........many of whom may have been despitefully used and /or abused by vinny during his 18 years of faithful service to twi..........i honestly hope you will find continued joy and peace in believing your version of christian truth..........and, i hope you will find the answers and solutions to the questions and stressors you mention in your blog entry of july, this year on your website.......i'd also appreciate it if you encourage vinny to come here and speak for himself, if he wants, rather than to have you speak for him or his offshoot.................thanks again mark, and..........................................peace.
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Mark Clarke
I started it to put together the message of the Kingdom of God that I have learned over the past several years. I included references to what I used to believe, so that other ex-Ways could identify with where I've come from and what I've learned from the Bible since then.
I have found that this overall message is not limited to any particular group, and is not something that any one person got "special insight" about. Many people from all different backgrounds have seen it and realized how it makes the whole Bible fit together. They have started seeing this, and realizing that the Gospel of the Kingdom is the primary message that Jesus preached and taught. He also said that this Gospel would be preached to the whole world, and then the end would come (Matt. 24:14). My website is my small part in that.
The more important question is not "who is teaching the truth?" but "what IS the truth?" All the arguments about who associates with whom, and who stands with what group, is IMO just carnal thinking like what Paul referred to in I Cor. 1:10ff.
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Mark Clarke
DWBH,
You're right about ABC/COGGC not being "mainstream." Most other "mainstream" denominations consider them at least misguided if not a cult, because they reject the Trinity. And you're also right about ABC mainly serving its own denomination and not being able to grant a degree that means anything outside of the denomination. This is actually a problem that they are aware of, and have talked about with the students. They have a problem getting the accreditation they want because of their rejection of the Trinity. I've heard that they are trying other avenues, but I don't know exactly what.
As far as I know, Vince's church is not "officially" a COGGC church, even though they agree on most doctrines. They recognize Vince's "pastorship" but they don't believe in lifetime ordinations like TWI and other ex-TWI groups do. They don't use the title "Reverend" if you notice. They have qualified candidates apply for a minister's license which is renewed every so often, and the title of Pastor is related to a person's position in a local church. As such, I don't know what Vince's "official" status is regarding their ministerial association.
Yes, the trip to Africa was the one I mentioned. I don't know who sponsored or funded Vince's involvement though.
I don't know about who monitors the money, salaries, etc. in Vince's church. I live in a different part of the country and haven't been involved with the day to day running of his ministry. I agree that it would be interesting to find out.
I think you're right about the Doctrinal forum being the best place to discuss the doctrinal differences. I only brought this up here because you and a few others said that ALL of the offshoots are just trying to keep VPW's doctrine and practices alive. While there is no denying that LHIM is a TWI offshoot, I see very little resemblance to the old ministry, outside of saying that the Bible is God-inspired, that God is one not three, and that the dead are unconscious. Their focus is on what God has done, specifically the Gospel of the Kingdom. They don't teach the "law of believing" or that the holy spirit is now "our spirit" that we must nurture and develop. They also don't make abundance in this life a priority, but recognize that this world is fallen and there will be suffering until Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom on earth.
Besides doctrinal differences, I also see little resemblance in the structure either. As far as I can tell, while they have various local "home fellowships" they are not organized in a Way-tree like structure, with leaders answering to their superiors up several levels. And I don't think Vince or anyone else decrees "official" doctrine which everyone must submit to, as in the Way. There are a number of doctrinal areas where different opinions are entertained, and even disagreements are allowed. For example, Vince and his son Sean still disagree on water baptism.
As for encouraging him to post here, I don't have his email address (I actually don't think he has one, or at least it's not on the site). But I do have Sean's email address and have written to him before. I'll mention this thread to him and see if he'll pass it on to his dad.
Thanks for your intelligent and civil discussion. Peace to you as well.
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