If Vincent has really changed his tune and sincerely apologised for his arrogant attitude, then let him publicly come here to GSC and repent of his sin, likewise John Lynn and beg us to forgive them and be honest to us and God, then they will receive absolution/pardon from the entire Body of Christ. Still waiting for a few other semi-regular posters here to get on their knees and do the same.
If Vincent has really changed his tune and sincerely apologised for his arrogant attitude, then let him publicly come here to GSC and repent of his sin, likewise John Lynn and beg us to forgive them and be honest to us and God, then they will receive absolution/pardon from the entire Body of Christ. Still waiting for a few other semi-regular posters here to get on their knees and do the same.
Well, I don't expect or demand that from anyone.
I do expect (and even 'demand') that they seek out those they specifically know they harmed, and ask forgiveness, and openenly avail themselves to those who feel they were harmed and want to resolve things. And I have no knowlege of him doing either, really.
No question, VF was one of the hot young up-and-comers in twi and as such, acted like an arrogant, bullying @$$, just like vpw taught them. And if his group really is so closely patterned after twi as others have described, I must also question its motives and feel sorry for anyone associated with it. It's just, as I said, his letter seems lacking in the blatant ego seen in other offshoots, and it gives me a little hope that maybe he's become a better person in his old age.
If Vincent has really changed his tune and sincerely apologised for his arrogant attitude, then let him publicly come here to GSC and repent of his sin, likewise John Lynn and beg us to forgive them and be honest to us and God, then they will receive absolution/pardon from the entire Body of Christ. Still waiting for a few other semi-regular posters here to get on their knees and do the same.
Why would he have to come here to do it? If he did, in fact, it would probably look like he was trolling for more followers, like John Lynn was accused of here (and may have been doing). He has sincerely apologized for his past on his own website, if anyone wanted to be "open" enough to check it out. The link to his letter was posted above. Here it is again: http://kingdomready.org/vincefinnegan.php.
Here is an excerpt from his letter:
As the Way ministry grew in numbers, it decreased in godliness. The downward spiral could be attributed to many things, with perhaps the most significant being wrong or incomplete doctrine, unqualified and immature leadership, and sinfulness. As a prominent leader in the ministry, I consider myself to have been a part of the problem and deeply regret the many things I did wrong. Before Dr. Wierwille died, (according to his own words) the early ministry of the Way was already a dim memory. In 1987, the new President and Board of Trustees insisted upon a vow of complete loyalty to them, or the result would be termination from employment. The choice for us was simple, but the ramifications were massive. We had five small children, with our oldest being only ten years old. We lived in a ministry owned house, so not only did I lose my job, but also I was told we had two weeks to move out of the house. We had no savings, no personally owned car, no furniture except one bed, and were given one month’s severance pay. It was one of our most challenging times, but also one of the greatest, because we had to depend completely upon God. We parted from The Way without bitterness or anger. In the long run, we had thankfulness for the good and repentance for that which we had done wrong. God gave us a clean new start. The ministry we once knew had died well over 20 years ago. We have been separated from The Way much longer than we had been associated with it, and what we now believe is light years apart. We have absolutely nothing to do with the ministry that now functions under the same name and hold a strong aversion toward any false claims of association.
Our loving God due to His abundant grace and mercy poured out many blessings for us. I began working installing wallpaper and continued to work with those in the ministry who wanted my involvement. Due to miraculous circumstances, we were able to buy the house we lived in with all the furnishings. Our children’s lives were relatively uninterrupted, and we began a new life and ministry independent from the Way. I continued to work with the other ministers in New York who also were fired and to function as we did while under the umbrella of The Way. In time, it became obvious the best thing to do was to decentralize the state organized ministry and incorporate locally with autonomy. My focus switched primarily to developing a local community based church. For years, we continued to function mainly with home-based fellowships which met together in a larger meeting once a month. In 1999, we decided to construct a church building which we call Living Hope Community Church. Due to the interest in our ministry from others outside our area in other states and countries, we now function on a limited level as an international organization.
Many of the harmful things that leaders in TWI did were because VP taught them to be that way. I know there are still some who carry on his ways, but I don't think every ex-Way leader does, and I know for a fact that Vince doesn't. The setup and structure, as indicated in the above excerpt, is dfferent from TWI. There is more emphasis on the local autonomous body, and no tree structure in which the "top leaders" decree what everyone must do and believe. There is also more cooperation with other groups with which Vince doesn't necessarily agree on every point, rather than the "don't even consider other opinions" attitude that TWI had. His son, who is now an associate pastor at Vince's church, got a degree from Atlanta Bible College, and Vince has humbly worked with a number of people from the Abrahamic Faith church, and the whole emphasis of the teaching is completely different from TWI.
Aside from the Trinity stuff and the Unconscious Dead stuff, there is not a lot of doctrine that he still shares with TWI. Their biggest emphasis was on the individual - how to be a "spiritual heavy" and "believe big" and "operate" the holy spirit so as to have a more abundant life now. In contrast, the emphasis of Living Hope is the proclamation of the coming Kingdom of God, and putting Jesus in his rightful place as head of the Body and future King.
Thing that bothers me about Vince,Is the you can lose salvation bit.
You can say this is wayis,but Rom10:9,10 Thou shalt be saved.
saved,sozo,Incoruptable seed.Yeah play the faith game as ya will.
Who determines if you lose the faith?The preacher?
I think we look to men to dam2 much for our faith.
Too many who call themseves christians want to live under the law,
and judge others.Bet I would not be welcome in that church.
Actually, Rom. 10:9-10 does not use the term "incorruptible seed" - that's from I Peter 1:23, and it says that it's by the Word, which is the seed of the New Birth, according to Jesus. (Again, I don't want to get into a doctrinal debate here, but you can read about the new birth and once saved always saved on my website.)
"Who determines if you lose the faith?" God does. It is not up to anyone to determine that someone is "irretrievably lost," and anyone who is searching for answers has not stoppped believing. I agree that too many "Christians" want to live under the Law, but I don't think you would find that in Vince's church.
In any case, whether you agree or not, the fact that he is teaching it shows that he is not just pushing "the same old TWI stuff" which is what most have been complaining about here.
I think that you are mischaracterizing what folks are complaining about. I am not trying to be contentious or attack you Mark, but I want to be perfectly clear what I have issue with.
My complaint is, with twi teachings as the root of ones theological basis....one will always remain suspect.
I think that it is foolish to attempt to build a structure on a faulty foundation. Your telling me that some off shoots are building a solid structure, they spend enormous amounts of time and money erecting a new beautiful building to replace the old structure. It looks good, and may even stand for a while. However, when the storms come, the crumbling foundation that was simply patched and painted to look good and strong will eventually collapse taking the whole structure, no matter how carefully constructed, down with it.
Call me the building inspector, I have seen the foundation and it isn`t solid.
If I had seen repentance, apology, living love God and love your neighbor, fruit of the spirit....I might be persuaded to believe that there has been changes. That a new foundation had been laid.
To me it all simply looks like more of the same...puffing ones self up with their newer better knowledge substituting that for the spiritual walk of a genuine christian.
Shoot, I have no doubt that folks have the best of intentions, but didn`t we all? Did that stop the travesty of twi?
I think that you are mischaracterizing what folks are complaining about. I am not trying to be contentious or attack you Mark, but I want to be perfectly clear what I have issue with.
My complaint is, with twi teachings as the root of ones theological basis....one will always remain suspect.
That's why I am trying to point out that Vince's church (as well as others in NY and RI, and there may be others I don't know about) is not built on the same root as TWI.
I think that it is foolish to attempt to build a structure on a faulty foundation. Your telling me that some off shoots are building a solid structure, they spend enormous amounts of time and money erecting a new beautiful building to replace the old structure. It looks good, and may even stand for a while. However, when the storms come, the crumbling foundation that was simply patched and painted to look good and strong will eventually collapse taking the whole structure, no matter how carefully constructed, down with it.
Call me the building inspector, I have seen the foundation and it isn`t solid.
If I had seen repentance, apology, living love God and love your neighbor, fruit of the spirit....I might be persuaded to believe that there has been changes. That a new foundation had been laid.
To me it all simply looks like more of the same...puffing ones self up with their newer better knowledge substituting that for the spiritual walk of a genuine christian.
Shoot, I have no doubt that folks have the best of intentions, but didn`t we all? Did that stop the travesty of twi?
What would you need to see to convince you that there is "repentance, apology, living love God and love your neighbor, fruit of the spirit"? What have you seen regarding Vince's church that shows you that there isn't love for God and neighbor?
I'm glad that, in your opinion, vinny's current theological musings line-up with your own theological opinions........maybe that contributes to your feelings, as expressed by the various posts you've politely contributed to this thread, that vinny, unlike the majority of vic's other "kids in the word" who run their own offshoots, has somehow done a better job at developing his own interpretation of scripture in a more humble, or "biblically accurate" manner than they have............and thus, has legitimately built his church on doctrine that in only a very few ways, resembles what twi drilled into his god-consciousness at the beginning of his "ministry" of the kingdom of god, and his current alliance with other churches of the abrahamic faith you mentioned...........is your agreement with "most of what vince teaches" also a part of why you keep "trying to point out that vince's church.........is not built on the same root as twi"?
i have not seen anything on "vince's site" that demonstrates "there isn't love for god and neighbor", imho............what i have seen, is the same self-righteous ego about his "church", (which, btw, his site proudly proclaims vinny is the founder of, not jesus christ) as he had about vic's "church" when he was an acknowledged "prominent leader" in it........i see his proud declaration of his "leadership resume" as a bigshot in twi for many years, and his declaration that he was under consideration by vic for being the one to follow his "father-in-the-word" as the second prez of twi!............let's look at it in his own words, from the same letter from the "founder" of living hope international ministries, that you posted excerpts from.........
During the early years of The Way, emphasis was placed primarily upon sound biblical principles such as the Word of God being the will of God, love for God and others as most important, complete dependency on and faith in God, and life should be lived today with a view toward the impending return of our Lord Jesus Christ. The doctrinal focus was regarding monotheism, the lordship of Christ, and the power of the holy spirit. I will always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry without which I don't think I would have lived to see thirty.
Four months after attending my first fellowship, I went for one year to Kentucky where I served as a missionary witnessing eight hours a day with the Way's outreach program. Afterwards, I participated in their two year leadership training program. Upon graduation, I married Mimi Pyles and moved to New Jersey. We served there as state coordinators for The Way from 1974-1977. Our last year in New Jersey, I also was the coordinator of the Northeast region consisting of nine additional states. In 1977, we were invited back to the International Headquarters to serve as the Assistant to the President. In the seven years that followed, I helped coordinate the leadership training program and the outreach for the ministry. I was the Country Coordinator for the USA, then the International Outreach Coordinator, and finally the Worldwide Outreach Coordinator. During those years, I traveled to every state in the United States plus 40 countries around the world. I was privileged to fellowship with and teach thousands of people. Through all these years, I remained the Assistant to the President and was one of a few men under consideration to replace the President of The Way when he retired. Due to the mercy of God, I was not selected for this position; rather, we went to New York as state leaders for the ministry.
after this "humble" listing of his twi "credentials", the two paragraphs you posted above in your post #54 follow............allow me to re-post some of the content within the fuller context as set by vinny himself in the paragraphs i posted above.......
In 1987, the new President and Board of Trustees insisted upon a vow of complete loyalty to them, or the result would be termination from employment. The choice for us was simple, but the ramifications were massive. We had five small children, with our oldest being only ten years old. We lived in a ministry owned house, so not only did I lose my job, but also I was told we had two weeks to move out of the house. We had no savings, no personally owned car, no furniture except one bed, and were given one month's severance pay. It was one of our most challenging times, but also one of the greatest, because we had to depend completely upon God. We parted from The Way without bitterness or anger. In the long run, we had thankfulness for the good and repentance for that which we had done wrong. God gave us a clean new start. The ministry we once knew had died well over 20 years ago. We have been separated from The Way much longer than we had been associated with it, and what we now believe is light years apart. We have absolutely nothing to do with the ministry that now functions under the same name and hold a strong aversion toward any false claims of association.
first of all, we greasespotters all know that the infamous "loyalty oath" edict that the doofus from okie sent out was in march of 1989, not during 1987...........what was vinny up to from 1986 through april of 1989?.......he was the limb coordinator of the way of ny, but a follower and supporter of geer, who was the defacto "leader" of twi from his sanctuary in scotland. he continued drawing his twi salary, lived in twi-paid-for "limb hq", enjoyed the "privilege" of spending twi "petty cash" funds for all his "expenses", visiting and "working with" the other twi "full-timers" under his direct "leadership", other twi "clergy", and inveigling himself into the hearts and needs of all the twi followers in one of its largest, and biggest financially supportive state organizations, which provided income for twi in the millions of dollars,..... all of which he then personally controlled! he conducted twi-business "as usual" stifling dissent and questions publically, while privately circling the wagons to himself, based upon the same hyperbolized twi "credentials" he lists in the paragraphs i posted above as well as securing the continued financial and "spiritual" loyalty of the various "vince-ites" still looking to him for direction and "guidance", who were scattered around this country and the "40 countries around the world" in which he also had loyal followers............all the time as fully aware as anyone of all the perverted dirt vp, king okie, the bot, geer, and many others, including himself were purposefully denying, and covering up, for their own protection as well as their own financial security.
as far as "apologizing" to those he willfully and gleefully lied about and labelled as either "possessed", "bitter", "angry", etc., i was among those so categorized by the "repentant" vinny, and, to date, i have yet to receive any communication at all from "mr. humble", let alone anything that even remotely resembles an apoloigy........just because his current theology seems so "different" from vic's, that opinion does not validate his vague, non-specific, public "regret" for the part he played in the corruption and abuse that was vic's "ministry".........and i'm only one of hundreds vinny has evidently seen no need or responsibilty to apologize to for his mean-spirited, self-serving, and incomplete "repentance"......i guess my complete rejection of vic's "early years in the ministry" as being somehow "of god" precludes me from some such apology since i don't see very much good nor "godly" in those ealy years like vinny does, which can objectively be attributed to vic's "ministry"........i see the predominant "heart" of those early years as being an artfully disguised, self-centered, self-aggrandizing power-trip serving the psychosocial perversions of a mean-spirited, sociopathic, serial sexual predator and alcoholic.........but, that's just me......unlike vinny, i will not "always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry"............i guess that kind of heartfelt thankfulness is something only "ministry founders" can share!!!
vinny's "ministry" is still based upon his twi "credentials", imo, which he used to parlay to himself a healthy financial base of willing christian givers as well as a fairly significant number of twi followers.......a pretty good position from which "god gave us a clean, new start", eh?............and even though he can "humbly" state that " We have absolutely nothing to do with the ministry that now functions under the same name and hold a strong aversion toward any false claims of association.", he can't deny the fact that he owes the existence of his current "ministry", lock, stock, and barrell, to the "ministry" of his "father-in-the-word", to whom he "will always be thankful"!rosie's twi is as different from vic's as vinny's offshoot is, and just as steeped in wierwilleism as vinny's offshoot is, imho.
like i said previously, in our country we are absolutely free to choose to believe whatever we want.......we are free to determine for ouselves what we want to accept as "god's truth", based on whatever body of literature we decide to believe is "scripture". but, that freedom does not include the "right" to expect that everyone else who decides differently must acquiesce to our decisions before we accept their decisions to believe differently, without labelling them as "bitter", "angry", "possessed", or "accusations"....... or whether we deem fellow humans worthy of an apology for wrongs committed against them based upon our own doctrine of choice as previously or currently accepted to be "god's word, rightly divided"!
i'm glad you continue to enjoy your study of the bible mark!.......i'm glad it brings you joy, peace, strength, and spiritual insight.........i'm glad vinny feels the same about his ministry, and that his followers enjoy his/their church.....i bear them no ill will, nor do i begrudge them their right to believe and worship god as they deem necessary and proper..........i'm also glad that my beliefs provide the same for me,,,,,,,,,but, i don't particularly enjoy the fact that my differing opinions about vinny's "ministry" are labelled by you as "accusations", because i happen not to agree with vinny's current interpretations of the bible, but you "mostly agree" with them.........my personal experiences with vinny are not validated nor invalidated based upon what he believes the bible teaches, or what you believe the bible teaches........facts are facts..........our personal choice of beliefs can and does effect our interpretation of those facts, but they do not alter the facts themselves.........you're entitled to your interpretation of the facts, i'm entitled to mine........but let's keep the record straight about that, and not label differing interpretations of the facts as accusations, thereby lowering civil discussion into opinionated bickering..........."just for the sake of accuracy"...........................peace.
You're right, we all have the right to interpret the facts as we see fit. My response to your opinions had nothing to do with whether or not you agree with his current theology. All I was saying is that your opinion of Vince seems to be based on things that happened in the past, and it colors your view of what he's trying to do now. But that is, as you say, your right.
My original point was that when he said nothing about his involvement with TWI, John Juedes implied that he was "hiding something," but when he writes of the positions and responsibilities he had, you imply that he is boasting or not being humble. I guess you can't please everyone.
Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying.
My original point was that when he said nothing about his involvement with TWI, John Juedes implied that he was "hiding something," but when he writes of the positions and responsibilities he had, you imply that he is boasting or not being humble. I guess you can't please everyone.
(snip)
Well, I think Juedes' description is just OLD. Vince's documentation, some time back, went through considerable
contortions to talk around the names of twi, vpw, and so on. It mentioned he'd taught in Zaire, but never under
whose aegis. So, there was a time when it was completely accurate to say he was "hiding something".
NOW he's mentioning both, so at least that much he's not hiding. If he's hiding anything else,
I'm sure I could find out, but I'd have to care more than I do.
Yep, states like New York, California, Ohio, and Florida must have been winfall goldmines for those who got them lock stock and limb homes and extwi believers and their money.
Don't any of these offshoot guys know that God is always watching, and in the end, you can't fool God?
I guess twi believers were always easy pickings....easy to use to further the appearance of Godliness and agendas....
Yep, states like New York, California, Ohio, and Florida must have been winfall goldmines for those who got them lock stock and limb homes and extwi believers and their money.
Don't any of these offshoot guys know that God is always watching, and in the end, you can't fool God?
I guess twi believers were always easy pickings....easy to use to further the appearance of Godliness and agendas....
now I see..........yeah, those four states you noted were the "big-name" wayfer states and that's probably why shroy3r's position for many years as the limb coordinator in Ohio, and later Florida, helped to springboard the CFF offshoot.
Why is it?...........that these offshoot ministers laid claim to "walking with God" after leaving twi and "put up their new shingle" in those states where they'd already been limb coordinators? ......men like vinny, seed, shr0yer, and others. And, to this day it seems like most of their "congregants" [95%..??] are of the ex-twi faction.
So these guys are running churches now, but it is a whole state (with some outsiders), and the actual work of ministering and running the services is done mostly by others, for free.
Sweeeeet ...
And they collect the money so that people have a place to give their 15% so they can be blessed.
And their twigees are in their 50's now, so they make more money and can ABS more ...
But I heard CFF does not collect all the money ... so maybe they don't do the ABS thing all the time. Do any of them open their finances for the members? How much are VF and the bus driver making these days?
IF NY had 1000 followers, and they gave even 3% on average, revenue would be thirty times that of the average worker ... minus expenses leaves a lot of money.
But I have no idea what any of the numbers are ...
That's what makes them so dangerous. I think they actually believe they are doing God's will.
I don't know if I'd label them all "dangerous".. some of them border, or have crossed the line to the comic.. some offshoot "ministers" appear to be just plain pathetic..
I've seen a few abandon their real "calling" (if one would want to call it that) in life, to go back to the same old environment.. plan meetings.. string chairs, get in front of the microphone..
I think jl did more with his little sat preparation program for kids than his YEARS of writing and slobbering on the microphone for ces..
those in utter denial of what the *ministry* really was.. I think are the dangerous ones. They are handling fire, and can't or refuse to acknowledge those who were previously burned..
That's what makes them so dangerous. I think they actually believe they are doing God's will.
No doubt about their sincerity. I think most people at the higher leadership levels who have truly stepped back and taken a hard look at what they believe(d) and what their role in TWI was, have seen the damage of belonging to such a structure. So far I've only seen 1 person at the higher levels of leadership who has stepped that far back. Everyone else is trying to recapture the glow of whatever time frame they believed were the "glory" days and rebuild the ministry based on that perception.
Or it's like a big club playing Dungeons and Dragons or some myth ... except in the cult it is easier to actually escape into the game. And it is fun for some ... life takes on a mythical element ...
So there are new clubs now, and new wizards ... pretending to fight some dreamed up demons ... (or fire breathing rhinos )
Or it's like a big club playing Dungeons and Dragons or some myth
You've certainly hit on something there...
Lots of similarities, I have a couple employees that are compulsive roleplaying gamers. Living in their own little worlds with negotiated rules, laws and characters. Not a lot of difference between that and making up your own religious organization.
And lest we lose perspective, the whole ball of wax evolved from a CULT!
I've only been able to talk openly about what I've been doing for God since July 2001 when I started going to a regular church on a regular basis. Over 20 years of essentially being ashamed of what I had been involved with and not wanting it to be common knowledge, lest I lose credibility.
........i see the predominant "heart" of those early years as being an artfully disguised, self-centered, self-aggrandizing power-trip serving the psychosocial perversions of a mean-spirited, sociopathic, serial sexual predator and alcoholic.........but, that's just me......unlike vinny, i will not "always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry"............i guess that kind of heartfelt thankfulness is something only "ministry founders" can share!!!
DWBH......that about sums it up for me, as well. <_<
Like I've said before, after leaving twi.....and spending time on Waydale and Greasespot......AND THEN, READING MRS. WIERWILLE'S BOOK.....it was very clear that vpw was predominantly self-centered in "his quest for truth." Apparently, he was stumbling along in life....and knew very little even AFTER meeting stiles in Tulsa, Oklahoma to "receive holy spirit into manifestation." ONLY AFTER STEALING B.G.'S CLASS AND MODEL STRUCTURE.......did veepee start taking babysteps towards his pedestal of self-importance.
Today, these splinger groups have adapted the same model, the same arrogance, the same man-made hierarchy to lift them to *mini-mog stardom.* And, within their little pond of self-importance..........yes, they are the big fish in the stagnant pond. From on outsider's perspective, it's rather funny.....but in their own little world, it's inflated to be "moving the word over the world." Same stuff, different day.
According to cgeer, there was a time when men like T0wnsend was desperately struggling to find a job and pay the bills after leaving twi and all. And, to me, the very fact that men like T0wnsend and others were so ill-equipped to find a real job after leaving speak volumes of twi's "work/study program and believing God" types of scenarios. Talk is so cheap. And, in these splinger groups.......it's even cheaper.
Yeah.. same old model, same tactics.. and it's a different day. The days are even tougher. More competition, less resources.. T*wnsend may have survived the scramble to "get a life".. DWBH did well.. and others..
but this delay for the new "sewers" kids may prove to be financial and professional suicide.. unless the "leaders" can REALLY give them the world. More likely, in five, ten, fifteen years, they'll find themselves out in an even harder world, trying to fend for themselves.
the "leaders" may do well for themselves.. but I don't think they'll ever sit on a big a nest egg as rosie and donna.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
If Vincent has really changed his tune and sincerely apologised for his arrogant attitude, then let him publicly come here to GSC and repent of his sin, likewise John Lynn and beg us to forgive them and be honest to us and God, then they will receive absolution/pardon from the entire Body of Christ. Still waiting for a few other semi-regular posters here to get on their knees and do the same.
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TheHighWay
Well, I don't expect or demand that from anyone.
I do expect (and even 'demand') that they seek out those they specifically know they harmed, and ask forgiveness, and openenly avail themselves to those who feel they were harmed and want to resolve things. And I have no knowlege of him doing either, really.
No question, VF was one of the hot young up-and-comers in twi and as such, acted like an arrogant, bullying @$$, just like vpw taught them. And if his group really is so closely patterned after twi as others have described, I must also question its motives and feel sorry for anyone associated with it. It's just, as I said, his letter seems lacking in the blatant ego seen in other offshoots, and it gives me a little hope that maybe he's become a better person in his old age.
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Mark Clarke
Why would he have to come here to do it? If he did, in fact, it would probably look like he was trolling for more followers, like John Lynn was accused of here (and may have been doing). He has sincerely apologized for his past on his own website, if anyone wanted to be "open" enough to check it out. The link to his letter was posted above. Here it is again: http://kingdomready.org/vincefinnegan.php.
Here is an excerpt from his letter:
Many of the harmful things that leaders in TWI did were because VP taught them to be that way. I know there are still some who carry on his ways, but I don't think every ex-Way leader does, and I know for a fact that Vince doesn't. The setup and structure, as indicated in the above excerpt, is dfferent from TWI. There is more emphasis on the local autonomous body, and no tree structure in which the "top leaders" decree what everyone must do and believe. There is also more cooperation with other groups with which Vince doesn't necessarily agree on every point, rather than the "don't even consider other opinions" attitude that TWI had. His son, who is now an associate pastor at Vince's church, got a degree from Atlanta Bible College, and Vince has humbly worked with a number of people from the Abrahamic Faith church, and the whole emphasis of the teaching is completely different from TWI.
Aside from the Trinity stuff and the Unconscious Dead stuff, there is not a lot of doctrine that he still shares with TWI. Their biggest emphasis was on the individual - how to be a "spiritual heavy" and "believe big" and "operate" the holy spirit so as to have a more abundant life now. In contrast, the emphasis of Living Hope is the proclamation of the coming Kingdom of God, and putting Jesus in his rightful place as head of the Body and future King.
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Mark Clarke
Actually, Rom. 10:9-10 does not use the term "incorruptible seed" - that's from I Peter 1:23, and it says that it's by the Word, which is the seed of the New Birth, according to Jesus. (Again, I don't want to get into a doctrinal debate here, but you can read about the new birth and once saved always saved on my website.)
"Who determines if you lose the faith?" God does. It is not up to anyone to determine that someone is "irretrievably lost," and anyone who is searching for answers has not stoppped believing. I agree that too many "Christians" want to live under the Law, but I don't think you would find that in Vince's church.
In any case, whether you agree or not, the fact that he is teaching it shows that he is not just pushing "the same old TWI stuff" which is what most have been complaining about here.
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rascal
I think that you are mischaracterizing what folks are complaining about. I am not trying to be contentious or attack you Mark, but I want to be perfectly clear what I have issue with.
My complaint is, with twi teachings as the root of ones theological basis....one will always remain suspect.
I think that it is foolish to attempt to build a structure on a faulty foundation. Your telling me that some off shoots are building a solid structure, they spend enormous amounts of time and money erecting a new beautiful building to replace the old structure. It looks good, and may even stand for a while. However, when the storms come, the crumbling foundation that was simply patched and painted to look good and strong will eventually collapse taking the whole structure, no matter how carefully constructed, down with it.
Call me the building inspector, I have seen the foundation and it isn`t solid.
If I had seen repentance, apology, living love God and love your neighbor, fruit of the spirit....I might be persuaded to believe that there has been changes. That a new foundation had been laid.
To me it all simply looks like more of the same...puffing ones self up with their newer better knowledge substituting that for the spiritual walk of a genuine christian.
Shoot, I have no doubt that folks have the best of intentions, but didn`t we all? Did that stop the travesty of twi?
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Mark Clarke
That's why I am trying to point out that Vince's church (as well as others in NY and RI, and there may be others I don't know about) is not built on the same root as TWI.
What would you need to see to convince you that there is "repentance, apology, living love God and love your neighbor, fruit of the spirit"? What have you seen regarding Vince's church that shows you that there isn't love for God and neighbor?
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya mark...........
I'm glad that, in your opinion, vinny's current theological musings line-up with your own theological opinions........maybe that contributes to your feelings, as expressed by the various posts you've politely contributed to this thread, that vinny, unlike the majority of vic's other "kids in the word" who run their own offshoots, has somehow done a better job at developing his own interpretation of scripture in a more humble, or "biblically accurate" manner than they have............and thus, has legitimately built his church on doctrine that in only a very few ways, resembles what twi drilled into his god-consciousness at the beginning of his "ministry" of the kingdom of god, and his current alliance with other churches of the abrahamic faith you mentioned...........is your agreement with "most of what vince teaches" also a part of why you keep "trying to point out that vince's church.........is not built on the same root as twi"?
i have not seen anything on "vince's site" that demonstrates "there isn't love for god and neighbor", imho............what i have seen, is the same self-righteous ego about his "church", (which, btw, his site proudly proclaims vinny is the founder of, not jesus christ) as he had about vic's "church" when he was an acknowledged "prominent leader" in it........i see his proud declaration of his "leadership resume" as a bigshot in twi for many years, and his declaration that he was under consideration by vic for being the one to follow his "father-in-the-word" as the second prez of twi!............let's look at it in his own words, from the same letter from the "founder" of living hope international ministries, that you posted excerpts from.........
During the early years of The Way, emphasis was placed primarily upon sound biblical principles such as the Word of God being the will of God, love for God and others as most important, complete dependency on and faith in God, and life should be lived today with a view toward the impending return of our Lord Jesus Christ. The doctrinal focus was regarding monotheism, the lordship of Christ, and the power of the holy spirit. I will always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry without which I don't think I would have lived to see thirty.
Four months after attending my first fellowship, I went for one year to Kentucky where I served as a missionary witnessing eight hours a day with the Way's outreach program. Afterwards, I participated in their two year leadership training program. Upon graduation, I married Mimi Pyles and moved to New Jersey. We served there as state coordinators for The Way from 1974-1977. Our last year in New Jersey, I also was the coordinator of the Northeast region consisting of nine additional states. In 1977, we were invited back to the International Headquarters to serve as the Assistant to the President. In the seven years that followed, I helped coordinate the leadership training program and the outreach for the ministry. I was the Country Coordinator for the USA, then the International Outreach Coordinator, and finally the Worldwide Outreach Coordinator. During those years, I traveled to every state in the United States plus 40 countries around the world. I was privileged to fellowship with and teach thousands of people. Through all these years, I remained the Assistant to the President and was one of a few men under consideration to replace the President of The Way when he retired. Due to the mercy of God, I was not selected for this position; rather, we went to New York as state leaders for the ministry.
after this "humble" listing of his twi "credentials", the two paragraphs you posted above in your post #54 follow............allow me to re-post some of the content within the fuller context as set by vinny himself in the paragraphs i posted above.......
In 1987, the new President and Board of Trustees insisted upon a vow of complete loyalty to them, or the result would be termination from employment. The choice for us was simple, but the ramifications were massive. We had five small children, with our oldest being only ten years old. We lived in a ministry owned house, so not only did I lose my job, but also I was told we had two weeks to move out of the house. We had no savings, no personally owned car, no furniture except one bed, and were given one month's severance pay. It was one of our most challenging times, but also one of the greatest, because we had to depend completely upon God. We parted from The Way without bitterness or anger. In the long run, we had thankfulness for the good and repentance for that which we had done wrong. God gave us a clean new start. The ministry we once knew had died well over 20 years ago. We have been separated from The Way much longer than we had been associated with it, and what we now believe is light years apart. We have absolutely nothing to do with the ministry that now functions under the same name and hold a strong aversion toward any false claims of association.
first of all, we greasespotters all know that the infamous "loyalty oath" edict that the doofus from okie sent out was in march of 1989, not during 1987...........what was vinny up to from 1986 through april of 1989?.......he was the limb coordinator of the way of ny, but a follower and supporter of geer, who was the defacto "leader" of twi from his sanctuary in scotland. he continued drawing his twi salary, lived in twi-paid-for "limb hq", enjoyed the "privilege" of spending twi "petty cash" funds for all his "expenses", visiting and "working with" the other twi "full-timers" under his direct "leadership", other twi "clergy", and inveigling himself into the hearts and needs of all the twi followers in one of its largest, and biggest financially supportive state organizations, which provided income for twi in the millions of dollars,..... all of which he then personally controlled! he conducted twi-business "as usual" stifling dissent and questions publically, while privately circling the wagons to himself, based upon the same hyperbolized twi "credentials" he lists in the paragraphs i posted above as well as securing the continued financial and "spiritual" loyalty of the various "vince-ites" still looking to him for direction and "guidance", who were scattered around this country and the "40 countries around the world" in which he also had loyal followers............all the time as fully aware as anyone of all the perverted dirt vp, king okie, the bot, geer, and many others, including himself were purposefully denying, and covering up, for their own protection as well as their own financial security.
as far as "apologizing" to those he willfully and gleefully lied about and labelled as either "possessed", "bitter", "angry", etc., i was among those so categorized by the "repentant" vinny, and, to date, i have yet to receive any communication at all from "mr. humble", let alone anything that even remotely resembles an apoloigy........just because his current theology seems so "different" from vic's, that opinion does not validate his vague, non-specific, public "regret" for the part he played in the corruption and abuse that was vic's "ministry".........and i'm only one of hundreds vinny has evidently seen no need or responsibilty to apologize to for his mean-spirited, self-serving, and incomplete "repentance"......i guess my complete rejection of vic's "early years in the ministry" as being somehow "of god" precludes me from some such apology since i don't see very much good nor "godly" in those ealy years like vinny does, which can objectively be attributed to vic's "ministry"........i see the predominant "heart" of those early years as being an artfully disguised, self-centered, self-aggrandizing power-trip serving the psychosocial perversions of a mean-spirited, sociopathic, serial sexual predator and alcoholic.........but, that's just me......unlike vinny, i will not "always be thankful for Dr. Wierwille (the founder) and those early years in the ministry"............i guess that kind of heartfelt thankfulness is something only "ministry founders" can share!!!
vinny's "ministry" is still based upon his twi "credentials", imo, which he used to parlay to himself a healthy financial base of willing christian givers as well as a fairly significant number of twi followers.......a pretty good position from which "god gave us a clean, new start", eh?............and even though he can "humbly" state that " We have absolutely nothing to do with the ministry that now functions under the same name and hold a strong aversion toward any false claims of association.", he can't deny the fact that he owes the existence of his current "ministry", lock, stock, and barrell, to the "ministry" of his "father-in-the-word", to whom he "will always be thankful"! rosie's twi is as different from vic's as vinny's offshoot is, and just as steeped in wierwilleism as vinny's offshoot is, imho.
like i said previously, in our country we are absolutely free to choose to believe whatever we want.......we are free to determine for ouselves what we want to accept as "god's truth", based on whatever body of literature we decide to believe is "scripture". but, that freedom does not include the "right" to expect that everyone else who decides differently must acquiesce to our decisions before we accept their decisions to believe differently, without labelling them as "bitter", "angry", "possessed", or "accusations"....... or whether we deem fellow humans worthy of an apology for wrongs committed against them based upon our own doctrine of choice as previously or currently accepted to be "god's word, rightly divided"!
i'm glad you continue to enjoy your study of the bible mark!.......i'm glad it brings you joy, peace, strength, and spiritual insight.........i'm glad vinny feels the same about his ministry, and that his followers enjoy his/their church.....i bear them no ill will, nor do i begrudge them their right to believe and worship god as they deem necessary and proper..........i'm also glad that my beliefs provide the same for me,,,,,,,,,but, i don't particularly enjoy the fact that my differing opinions about vinny's "ministry" are labelled by you as "accusations", because i happen not to agree with vinny's current interpretations of the bible, but you "mostly agree" with them.........my personal experiences with vinny are not validated nor invalidated based upon what he believes the bible teaches, or what you believe the bible teaches........facts are facts..........our personal choice of beliefs can and does effect our interpretation of those facts, but they do not alter the facts themselves.........you're entitled to your interpretation of the facts, i'm entitled to mine........but let's keep the record straight about that, and not label differing interpretations of the facts as accusations, thereby lowering civil discussion into opinionated bickering..........."just for the sake of accuracy"...........................peace.
Edited by Don'tWorryBeHappyLink to comment
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Mark Clarke
DWBH,
You're right, we all have the right to interpret the facts as we see fit. My response to your opinions had nothing to do with whether or not you agree with his current theology. All I was saying is that your opinion of Vince seems to be based on things that happened in the past, and it colors your view of what he's trying to do now. But that is, as you say, your right.
My original point was that when he said nothing about his involvement with TWI, John Juedes implied that he was "hiding something," but when he writes of the positions and responsibilities he had, you imply that he is boasting or not being humble. I guess you can't please everyone.
Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying.
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excathedra
okay, who edited this? so i can ask about the previous personal attack.
this is weird.
--
it should really be edited because i called vince a sheet ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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excathedra
oh wow, i'm trying to read the purple now.
vince is an azz. in my own azz opinion, so is everyone who starts a "ministry" and then tries to figure out how to justify it.
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WordWolf
Well, I think Juedes' description is just OLD. Vince's documentation, some time back, went through considerable
contortions to talk around the names of twi, vpw, and so on. It mentioned he'd taught in Zaire, but never under
whose aegis. So, there was a time when it was completely accurate to say he was "hiding something".
NOW he's mentioning both, so at least that much he's not hiding. If he's hiding anything else,
I'm sure I could find out, but I'd have to care more than I do.
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excathedra
lol
see, these people have to figure out how to appeal to wayfers -- i mean, ex-wayfers, but they're not sure who hates veepee or how adores him
lol
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now I see
Yep, states like New York, California, Ohio, and Florida must have been winfall goldmines for those who got them lock stock and limb homes and extwi believers and their money.
Don't any of these offshoot guys know that God is always watching, and in the end, you can't fool God?
I guess twi believers were always easy pickings....easy to use to further the appearance of Godliness and agendas....
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Jim
That's what makes them so dangerous. I think they actually believe they are doing God's will.
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skyrider
now I see..........yeah, those four states you noted were the "big-name" wayfer states and that's probably why shroy3r's position for many years as the limb coordinator in Ohio, and later Florida, helped to springboard the CFF offshoot.
Why is it?...........that these offshoot ministers laid claim to "walking with God" after leaving twi and "put up their new shingle" in those states where they'd already been limb coordinators? ......men like vinny, seed, shr0yer, and others. And, to this day it seems like most of their "congregants" [95%..??] are of the ex-twi faction.
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rhino
So these guys are running churches now, but it is a whole state (with some outsiders), and the actual work of ministering and running the services is done mostly by others, for free.
Sweeeeet ...
And they collect the money so that people have a place to give their 15% so they can be blessed.
And their twigees are in their 50's now, so they make more money and can ABS more ...
But I heard CFF does not collect all the money ... so maybe they don't do the ABS thing all the time. Do any of them open their finances for the members? How much are VF and the bus driver making these days?
IF NY had 1000 followers, and they gave even 3% on average, revenue would be thirty times that of the average worker ... minus expenses leaves a lot of money.
But I have no idea what any of the numbers are ...
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Ham
I don't know if I'd label them all "dangerous".. some of them border, or have crossed the line to the comic.. some offshoot "ministers" appear to be just plain pathetic..
I've seen a few abandon their real "calling" (if one would want to call it that) in life, to go back to the same old environment.. plan meetings.. string chairs, get in front of the microphone..
I think jl did more with his little sat preparation program for kids than his YEARS of writing and slobbering on the microphone for ces..
those in utter denial of what the *ministry* really was.. I think are the dangerous ones. They are handling fire, and can't or refuse to acknowledge those who were previously burned..
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Tzaia
No doubt about their sincerity. I think most people at the higher leadership levels who have truly stepped back and taken a hard look at what they believe(d) and what their role in TWI was, have seen the damage of belonging to such a structure. So far I've only seen 1 person at the higher levels of leadership who has stepped that far back. Everyone else is trying to recapture the glow of whatever time frame they believed were the "glory" days and rebuild the ministry based on that perception.
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waysider
And lest we lose perspective, the whole ball of wax evolved from a CULT!
It's like taking clippings from the poison ivy in my backyard and wondering why they won't grow into apple trees.
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rhino
Or it's like a big club playing Dungeons and Dragons or some myth ... except in the cult it is easier to actually escape into the game. And it is fun for some ... life takes on a mythical element ...
So there are new clubs now, and new wizards ... pretending to fight some dreamed up demons ... (or fire breathing rhinos
)
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Jim
You've certainly hit on something there...
Lots of similarities, I have a couple employees that are compulsive roleplaying gamers. Living in their own little worlds with negotiated rules, laws and characters. Not a lot of difference between that and making up your own religious organization.
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Tzaia
I've only been able to talk openly about what I've been doing for God since July 2001 when I started going to a regular church on a regular basis. Over 20 years of essentially being ashamed of what I had been involved with and not wanting it to be common knowledge, lest I lose credibility.
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skyrider
DWBH......that about sums it up for me, as well. <_<
Like I've said before, after leaving twi.....and spending time on Waydale and Greasespot......AND THEN, READING MRS. WIERWILLE'S BOOK.....it was very clear that vpw was predominantly self-centered in "his quest for truth." Apparently, he was stumbling along in life....and knew very little even AFTER meeting stiles in Tulsa, Oklahoma to "receive holy spirit into manifestation." ONLY AFTER STEALING B.G.'S CLASS AND MODEL STRUCTURE.......did veepee start taking babysteps towards his pedestal of self-importance.
Today, these splinger groups have adapted the same model, the same arrogance, the same man-made hierarchy to lift them to *mini-mog stardom.* And, within their little pond of self-importance..........yes, they are the big fish in the stagnant pond. From on outsider's perspective, it's rather funny.....but in their own little world, it's inflated to be "moving the word over the world." Same stuff, different day.
According to cgeer, there was a time when men like T0wnsend was desperately struggling to find a job and pay the bills after leaving twi and all. And, to me, the very fact that men like T0wnsend and others were so ill-equipped to find a real job after leaving speak volumes of twi's "work/study program and believing God" types of scenarios. Talk is so cheap. And, in these splinger groups.......it's even cheaper.
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Ham
Yeah.. same old model, same tactics.. and it's a different day. The days are even tougher. More competition, less resources.. T*wnsend may have survived the scramble to "get a life".. DWBH did well.. and others..
but this delay for the new "sewers" kids may prove to be financial and professional suicide.. unless the "leaders" can REALLY give them the world. More likely, in five, ten, fifteen years, they'll find themselves out in an even harder world, trying to fend for themselves.
the "leaders" may do well for themselves.. but I don't think they'll ever sit on a big a nest egg as rosie and donna.
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