his "original theology" of today remains at least 70% wierwilleism, with his own "degree mill" attachments providing enough of a cover for him to proclaim just enouigh "distance" from vic and twi to keep the money rolling in........his own "bible classes" are formatted just like the ones he took in twi, and the content is, as i said before, predominantly the same..........which is his absolute right as a citizen of our wonderful country.......but, makes him no less of a "whited sepulchre" than ces/stfi, cff, the geerites, and any/every other offshoot of vic's "ministry" available to the sadly gullible public around the country and world today!........the structure of his "church" is a thinly disguised remake of the way tree......he's got his headquarters, his bookstore, his classes, and his in-home fellowships just like he had in twi.........and, they're all quite lucrative enough so vinny doesn't ever have to get a "real job" ever again............which is quite fortunate for him and his family, since vinny isn't qualified for any job beyond pseudo-minister for god that could financially support the lifestyle he and mimi grew accustomed to in twi!
The interesting thing to me, DWBH.. is one can take "vinny" or "his", "him".. substitute almost any offshoot "leader's" name, and the shoe fits..
and like j.l., they regard the blight of vic's doctrine and practice to be like gold. They've left egypt.. and like Mrs. Presky, they didn't choose the fourteen carat gold bullion, it was a bag of ......
You have openly spoken of your connection with The Way.
I haven't seen you trying to keep the old stuff alive or cash in on the past.
My 2 centavos
Yes, but I'm not running a ministry. It seems (this is a generalization, and I could be wrong) as if the ones who do so and have any connection with TWI are thought to be trying to continue the legacy in some way.
reading through some of the things on Kingdomready.org is jsu recycled VPW writings. There is not much difference is his theology. Those of us who have been there can tell the difference. He is looking for those who are looking for the way stuff or don't know better. Not to say everything that was taught in the way was bad. Fior error to be believeable it must be mixed with truth. But I have see some people will believe anything. There are even people that believe the earth is flat or hollow with another world inside. The more error is said over and over the more believable it will be. <_<
The only things he has in common with TWI, doctrinally, is the rejection of the Trinity and the idea of the dead being unconscious. But the whole dispensationalist view of the Scriptures, and the focus on what WE do instead of what God does, along with the "we are spiritual heavies" attitude, as well as the controlling of its people, were the among the things that were wrong in TWI, and Vince has renounced those. His focus is on the coming Kingdom of God, as was Jesus' focus, and TWI misunderstood that completely.
The only things he has in common with TWI, doctrinally, is the rejection of the Trinity and the idea of the dead being unconscious. But the whole dispensationalist view of the Scriptures, and the focus on what WE do instead of what God does, along with the "we are spiritual heavies" attitude, as well as the controlling of its people, were the among the things that were wrong in TWI, and Vince has renounced those. His focus is on the coming Kingdom of God, as was Jesus' focus, and TWI misunderstood that completely.
I'd agree I don't think that there is that much way doctrine in his teaching anymore he has even moved away from their own early teachings through the years. He has become more more gospel, kingdom,works focused as the years progress.
( ["just for the sake of accuracy", what vince finnegan considers himself to be or not to be does not change the fact that he was one of the worst of the twi hypocrites who ever ascended to the ranks of power that vic dangled in front of him to entice him into the corrupt, perverted, "inner sanctum" of twi "leadership", imho. he was a mean-spirited, vindictive, total vic loyalist who parlayed his phoney "everyman" public persona into his own little feifdom of spiritual and sexual abuse to the delight of his "father-in-the-word"........he was a plagiarist cut in the ignorant, pseudo-intellectual "biblical research" cloth of his "teacher", and he remains an "intellectual" hoax to this day..... )
I just wanted to chime in here a little. I have to agree withmost of what was said here. I do remeber how those of us who questiond what was going were treated. All we could get was a "tow the line kind of thing". Whle I have not keeped up on what he is doing I would not follow one of the men who IMHO was part of the cause of my being excomunicated as well as the beginnin of problems we then had at home.
...It seems (this is a generalization, and I could be wrong) as if the ones who do so and have any connection with TWI are thought to be trying to continue the legacy in some way.
...And these accusations against Vince Finnegan prove my point. He has distanced himself from everything TWI and yet is being accused of doing the same things they did. How much have those accusers looked into what he's doing now? For the record, I don't agree with everything he teaches, but I do agree with most of it, and it is so different from TWI that his site isn't allowed to be linked on the Cortright site. Mine isn't either, because of the "false doctrines" that Cortright's site considers us to be teaching.
...And these accusations against Vince Finnegan prove my point. He has distanced himself from everything TWI and yet is being accused of doing the same things they did. How much have those accusers looked into what he's doing now? For the record, I don't agree with everything he teaches, but I do agree with most of it, and it is so different from TWI that his site isn't allowed to be linked on the Cortright site. Mine isn't either, because of the "false doctrines" that Cortright's site considers us to be teaching.
Well Mark, I suppose folks suspect that anything that began as an off shoot of twi doctrine. Kind of like the diseased tree analogy Jesus used.
Anyone who hasn`t repented of the evil, renounced the doctrine and people whom facilitated the evil actions, and apologized for the harm caused, is suspect in my book.
The thing that many of the off shoots seem to have in common is trying to cover and hide everything with a new and better doctrine/brand of spirituality.
To me, it seems like a thin veneer that covers what is underneith....a facade to make things look ok.
Until guys come forward without excuses, without blaming the victims, without accusations of bitterness and such...the offshoots and their leaders remain unworthy of trust or the title of leader.
Blame the victims, dodge responsibility, deny the evil wrought...pretend that what happened is unimportant...THAT seems to be the mark and standard of twi doctrine adherents.
When I see people actually living the love of God, instead of finding scriptural support to facilitate, excuse, and even justify viscious cruel behavior I might actually be able to consider whether twi doctrine, and it`s off shoots practicing some form of it or another, are even compatible with a genuine Christian life style.
When I see people actually living the love of God, instead of finding scriptural support, excuse and even justify viscious cruel behavior, I might actually be able to consider whether twi doctrine, and it`s off shoots are even compatible with a genuine Christian life style.
Why do all of these posters assume that V. Finnegan hasn't rejected or denounced his TWI doctrines and practices? And as for the offshoots that do continue to hold to the old ways, they are not always secretive about it. Many of them still openly give VPW credit for "teaching them the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century." But Finnegan does not.
From what little I have looked at on Vince Finnegan's website (once a year or so ago), one of the main differences I saw was that he speaks of being able to lose one's salvation (what the Southern Baptists call "backsliding"). My Bible says "incorruptible seed." Obviously, his followers use a "new" version. If it is incorruptible seed, then I cannot lose it.
From what little I have looked at on Vince Finnegan's website (once a year or so ago), one of the main differences I saw was that he speaks of being able to lose one's salvation (what the Southern Baptists call "backsliding"). My Bible says "incorruptible seed." Obviously, his followers use a "new" version. If it is incorruptible seed, then I cannot lose it.
Not a new version, but a different understanding of it. I don't want to get into it here, since this isn't the doctrinal forum, but I wrote an explanation of it on my website, you can find it here. But this is only one of several areas where he differs from TWI.
Well.......in 1953, when wierwille took B.G. Leonard's The Gifts of the Spirit class, HE DIDN'T CHANGE THINGS OVERNIGHT EITHER. But gradually over time, wierwille altered and added to B.G.'s foundational class and later changed the class name to "Power for Abundant Living."
But.....STILL......Twi is an offshoot of Leonard's ministry.
Although it's been said MANY TIMES.........mrs. wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve elaborates quite extensively on wierwille's deep frustration and on the verge of "quitting the ministry"........UNTIL vpw went to Calgary, Alberta and took B.G. Leonard's class.
In fact........wierwille's ministry was NOT a "take this class" ministry. Wierwille was still in the denomination and was struggling with many issues.
B.G. Leonard had a foundational class.
B.G. Leonard had registration requirements, a class set-up, a Bible Centre, a class photo..........etc.
Wierwille carbon-copied the Leonard model...........from Canadian soup to Buckeye nuts..!!!
Interesting that when the vicster "cut ties" (was thrown out on his rear) that he took the "issues" WITH HIM.
To me it would suggest that his "practices" could not function in the old group.. he merely took his old set of "problems" to a new set of circumstances..
seems that a lot of offspring "ministers" follow in his footsteps.
jl is still convinced he left twi with the "gold".. just polish it up a little bit.. change a few minor points.. and he's "made it his own"..
I think he's as egotistical and arrogant as the day he was forced out of the confines of twi.
I didn't see the arrogance and ego that is so obvious in some of the other offshoots. He clearly believes twi started out good and taught a lot of good things in the beginning (which I would personally question) but when he talks about it spiraling downhill, he INCLUDES vpw in the mix, which most of them refuse to do.
He also says he knows that by being leadership at the time, he helped convey and continue bad policies that hurt people and that he's sorry. This seems to me to read like a genuinely heart-felt letter.
I kinda think he'd be one that you could approach with an old grievance against him and he'd try to make it right (in contrast to so many we know of who refuse to talk to anyone from their past or act like the ones they hurt are the big sinners).
i had a brief brushby with the Finnegan organization about a decade ago and the setup was basically the same as TWi as
DWBH has said. Classes, tapes, In home fellowships, advances, money collecting all followed along in the same pattern set by Wierwille.
The structural setup was very similar.
Although the doctrine varied slightly from TWI, it was still a renegade organization that had no oversight by any larger body but like TWI was a 'world unto itself'.
...
If some of these people want to become ministers, fine ---go get a real education and become a real minister But to watch TWI collapse then jump out immediately on their own using only what they learned from Wierwille as a guide leads to the same foul results no matter how much they dress it up
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The interesting thing to me, DWBH.. is one can take "vinny" or "his", "him".. substitute almost any offshoot "leader's" name, and the shoe fits..
and like j.l., they regard the blight of vic's doctrine and practice to be like gold. They've left egypt.. and like Mrs. Presky, they didn't choose the fourteen carat gold bullion, it was a bag of ......
"but it's great ...., Mrs. Presky.."
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Rejoice
Ooops, do they HAVE a LEGAL DEPARTMENT??? :unsure:
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Mark Clarke
Yes, but I'm not running a ministry. It seems (this is a generalization, and I could be wrong) as if the ones who do so and have any connection with TWI are thought to be trying to continue the legacy in some way.
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Mark Clarke
The only things he has in common with TWI, doctrinally, is the rejection of the Trinity and the idea of the dead being unconscious. But the whole dispensationalist view of the Scriptures, and the focus on what WE do instead of what God does, along with the "we are spiritual heavies" attitude, as well as the controlling of its people, were the among the things that were wrong in TWI, and Vince has renounced those. His focus is on the coming Kingdom of God, as was Jesus' focus, and TWI misunderstood that completely.
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WhiteDove
I'd agree I don't think that there is that much way doctrine in his teaching anymore he has even moved away from their own early teachings through the years. He has become more more gospel, kingdom,works focused as the years progress.
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Enchanted
( ["just for the sake of accuracy", what vince finnegan considers himself to be or not to be does not change the fact that he was one of the worst of the twi hypocrites who ever ascended to the ranks of power that vic dangled in front of him to entice him into the corrupt, perverted, "inner sanctum" of twi "leadership", imho. he was a mean-spirited, vindictive, total vic loyalist who parlayed his phoney "everyman" public persona into his own little feifdom of spiritual and sexual abuse to the delight of his "father-in-the-word"........he was a plagiarist cut in the ignorant, pseudo-intellectual "biblical research" cloth of his "teacher", and he remains an "intellectual" hoax to this day..... )
I just wanted to chime in here a little. I have to agree withmost of what was said here. I do remeber how those of us who questiond what was going were treated. All we could get was a "tow the line kind of thing". Whle I have not keeped up on what he is doing I would not follow one of the men who IMHO was part of the cause of my being excomunicated as well as the beginnin of problems we then had at home.
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Mark Clarke
...And these accusations against Vince Finnegan prove my point. He has distanced himself from everything TWI and yet is being accused of doing the same things they did. How much have those accusers looked into what he's doing now? For the record, I don't agree with everything he teaches, but I do agree with most of it, and it is so different from TWI that his site isn't allowed to be linked on the Cortright site. Mine isn't either, because of the "false doctrines" that Cortright's site considers us to be teaching.
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WhiteDove
Removed personal attack
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rascal
Well Mark, I suppose folks suspect that anything that began as an off shoot of twi doctrine. Kind of like the diseased tree analogy Jesus used.
Anyone who hasn`t repented of the evil, renounced the doctrine and people whom facilitated the evil actions, and apologized for the harm caused, is suspect in my book.
The thing that many of the off shoots seem to have in common is trying to cover and hide everything with a new and better doctrine/brand of spirituality.
To me, it seems like a thin veneer that covers what is underneith....a facade to make things look ok.
Until guys come forward without excuses, without blaming the victims, without accusations of bitterness and such...the offshoots and their leaders remain unworthy of trust or the title of leader.
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rascal
Blame the victims, dodge responsibility, deny the evil wrought...pretend that what happened is unimportant...THAT seems to be the mark and standard of twi doctrine adherents.
When I see people actually living the love of God, instead of finding scriptural support to facilitate, excuse, and even justify viscious cruel behavior I might actually be able to consider whether twi doctrine, and it`s off shoots practicing some form of it or another, are even compatible with a genuine Christian life style.
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copenhagen
Rascal said
When I see people actually living the love of God, instead of finding scriptural support, excuse and even justify viscious cruel behavior, I might actually be able to consider whether twi doctrine, and it`s off shoots are even compatible with a genuine Christian life style.
What else needs to be said.
Show me the fruit..
copenhagen
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oldiesman
Vince Finnegan is a brother in Christ and I wish him well.
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GeorgeStGeorge
If by that you mean that you wish he would repent of his evil and walk as a Christian, I would agree.
If you mean to wish him success in all his endeavors, not matter how worldly, I must take exception.
George
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Mark Clarke
Why do all of these posters assume that V. Finnegan hasn't rejected or denounced his TWI doctrines and practices? And as for the offshoots that do continue to hold to the old ways, they are not always secretive about it. Many of them still openly give VPW credit for "teaching them the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century." But Finnegan does not.
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DogLover
From what little I have looked at on Vince Finnegan's website (once a year or so ago), one of the main differences I saw was that he speaks of being able to lose one's salvation (what the Southern Baptists call "backsliding"). My Bible says "incorruptible seed." Obviously, his followers use a "new" version. If it is incorruptible seed, then I cannot lose it.
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Mark Clarke
Not a new version, but a different understanding of it. I don't want to get into it here, since this isn't the doctrinal forum, but I wrote an explanation of it on my website, you can find it here. But this is only one of several areas where he differs from TWI.
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frank123lol
Man,Next thing you will teach is that the devil can be saved.Oh well believe anything you want it is a free country.
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skyrider
Well.......in 1953, when wierwille took B.G. Leonard's The Gifts of the Spirit class, HE DIDN'T CHANGE THINGS OVERNIGHT EITHER. But gradually over time, wierwille altered and added to B.G.'s foundational class and later changed the class name to "Power for Abundant Living."
But.....STILL......Twi is an offshoot of Leonard's ministry.
<_<
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skyrider
Although it's been said MANY TIMES.........mrs. wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve elaborates quite extensively on wierwille's deep frustration and on the verge of "quitting the ministry"........UNTIL vpw went to Calgary, Alberta and took B.G. Leonard's class.
In fact........wierwille's ministry was NOT a "take this class" ministry. Wierwille was still in the denomination and was struggling with many issues.
B.G. Leonard had a foundational class.
B.G. Leonard had registration requirements, a class set-up, a Bible Centre, a class photo..........etc.
Wierwille carbon-copied the Leonard model...........from Canadian soup to Buckeye nuts..!!!
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Ham
Interesting that when the vicster "cut ties" (was thrown out on his rear) that he took the "issues" WITH HIM.
To me it would suggest that his "practices" could not function in the old group.. he merely took his old set of "problems" to a new set of circumstances..
seems that a lot of offspring "ministers" follow in his footsteps.
jl is still convinced he left twi with the "gold".. just polish it up a little bit.. change a few minor points.. and he's "made it his own"..
I think he's as egotistical and arrogant as the day he was forced out of the confines of twi.
Old set of "issues".. new set of circumstances.
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TheHighWay
I didn't have any first-hand dealings with Vince while I was in twi, except to hear him teach.
My first impression of his ministry's belief statement page is, "yup: just another offshoot." http://kingdomready.org/statementofbeliefs.php
However, as I read his letter of introduction: http://kingdomready.org/vincefinnegan.php
I didn't see the arrogance and ego that is so obvious in some of the other offshoots. He clearly believes twi started out good and taught a lot of good things in the beginning (which I would personally question) but when he talks about it spiraling downhill, he INCLUDES vpw in the mix, which most of them refuse to do.
He also says he knows that by being leadership at the time, he helped convey and continue bad policies that hurt people and that he's sorry. This seems to me to read like a genuinely heart-felt letter.
I kinda think he'd be one that you could approach with an old grievance against him and he'd try to make it right (in contrast to so many we know of who refuse to talk to anyone from their past or act like the ones they hurt are the big sinners).
Just my two cents.
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frank123lol
Thing that bothers me about Vince,Is the you can lose salvation bit.
You can say this is wayis,but Rom10:9,10 Thou shalt be saved.
saved,sozo,Incoruptable seed.Yeah play the faith game as ya will.
Who determines if you lose the faith?The preacher?
I think we look to men to dam2 much for our faith.
Too many who call themseves christians want to live under the law,
and judge others.Bet I would not be welcome in that church.
.
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excathedra
****
That's not really fair. I'm not here to make anything up, and I certainly could not care less about being in any good ole boy club.
--
ps. I knew Vince and he was a sheet.
pps. I'm not interested in any offshoot, but then again I'm not interested in any church either.
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mstar1
i had a brief brushby with the Finnegan organization about a decade ago and the setup was basically the same as TWi as
DWBH has said. Classes, tapes, In home fellowships, advances, money collecting all followed along in the same pattern set by Wierwille.
The structural setup was very similar.
Although the doctrine varied slightly from TWI, it was still a renegade organization that had no oversight by any larger body but like TWI was a 'world unto itself'.
...
If some of these people want to become ministers, fine ---go get a real education and become a real minister But to watch TWI collapse then jump out immediately on their own using only what they learned from Wierwille as a guide leads to the same foul results no matter how much they dress it up
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