Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Uh...where did this get overruled? Ah, got it! When TWI replaced itself as God and the Prez as the MOGFODAT, surplanting Jesus.
I think to go beyond Biblical principle would require some explicit "revelation" from God. Disregard of principle should not become the norm. I'm thinking of an OT example where a prophet asked another to hit him (where hitting other people is not the norm). In the NT, when Gentiles were beginning to accept Christ, a lot of the old Jewish religious laws were broken (eg, eating with Gentiles).
But (for example) to go beyond the clear teaching that adultery is wrong is not the norm. This is clearly laid out in both OT and NT.
If God really wants an individual to do something radically different from what is written, he is smart enough to make sure that individual knows.
I've heard stories of TWI leadership telling folks to do bad things and saying that they should obey orders. IMO this is wrong because a Christian soldier would be ultimately accountable to God instead of TWI leadership.
Not sure what "bad things" you are saying were "ordered" - most of the bad stuff wasn't ordered so much as alluded to, shown by example, or praised. They also relied heavily on the "higher powers" stuff in Rom 13. When one's barriers are so completely broken down, and coupled with the maxim that the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command, and there is fertile ground for some of the abuses in TWI with hitting children and wives.
TWI also taught, "be exceptional, don't expect to be an exception."
I understand your viewpoint about higher authority (responsibility to God). While God is not tied by man's laws, he also isn't so stupid as to expect his people to flagrantly flout legality on a whim. To do an apparently bad thing in the face of clear instruction otherwise would be very exceptional (thinking here of say -
2 Sam 20:21 The matter is not so: but a man of mount Ephraim, Sheba the son of Bichri by name, hath lifted up his hand against the king, even against David: deliver him only, and I will depart from the city. And the woman said unto Joab, Behold, his head shall be thrown to thee over the wall. 22 Then the woman went unto all the people in her wisdom. And they cut off the head of Sheba the son of Bichri, and cast it out to Joab. And he blew a trumpet, and they retired from the city, every man to his tent. And Joab returned to Jerusalem unto the king.
- where the murder (execution?) of a rebel was praised.)
Can't comment from the point of view of a soldier, Christian or otherwise, in combat; but in normal day to day living the norm would be to live within one's culture and God will make it very clear when culture is to be disregarded. And if any sort of Christian leadership, whether TWI or some church, goes beyond the laws of the land, God will make that clear. He is not, however, going to go in the face of his own laws!
In my splinter group I paid a high price for resisting twisted doctrines and bad biblical workmanship relying on God's providence and HIS ultimate blessing.
Good on you for resisting the wresting of the scriptures. You were the one standing for God; not the splinter group leader.
I was a United States Marine quite a few years ago. My time in service wasn't marked by heroism or outstanding achievements of any kind that I know of, but my discharge was honorable.
As a Marine I always believed that ultimately, my loyalty was according to the oath that I swore to the constitution of the united States of America. As such, I always held in my heart that I may be required to disobey orders if I was ever in a situation where the orders were unconstitutional. this situation never arose in my life, but I was never too shy about sharing with folks how I felt. I always felt that if it had ever been necessary to disobey unlawful orders that it would be highly probable that I would have to pay a price for my principles because I had dared to disobey orders.
I've heard stories of TWI leadership telling folks to do bad things and saying that they should obey orders. IMO this is wrong because a Christian soldier would be ultimately accountable to God instead of TWI leadership.
In my splinter group I paid a high price for resisting twisted doctrines and bad biblical workmanship relying on God's providence and HIS ultimate blessing.
WOULD ANYBODY HAVE ANY FEEDBACK ON WHAT I PERCEIVE TO BE AN IMPORTANT ETHICAL DISTINCTION AS IT PERTAINS TO OBEDIENCE?
P.S.
I'm already out of time today.
I've pointed out before that vpw was fond of saying things like
"the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command"
and to claim his way corps was modelled after the Marine Corps in some way
and meant to be a spiritual version of it.
However,
vpw never spent any time in the military, not the Reserves, nor the National Guard,
not even ROTC.
vpw's impressions of what goes on in the military seem to have been based more
on movies, television, and his own preconceived notions than on any actual DATA
like seeing how they work.
His version of the military seemed strong on ceremony, but light on teaching
skills to people that enable them to work alone or be in charge without being
overseen. In fact, problem-solving and independent thought seemed to be far
First off, thank you for your service to this country Jeff. A marine IS the real deal.
I can tell you how it was taught to me. We were given the example of Peter being told to come out to Jesus on the boat during the storm.
It was explained how Peter obeyed his leader no matter how nutty the suggestion seemed to his 5 senses. When he began to look at the storm around him, instead of his leader, he began to sink.
If we wanted to see a miracle, if we wanted to be a doulos, we must obey our leaders. It was then added, EVEN if the leader was wrong, God would make it ok because he would honor the commitment of our hearts.
Even if we were RIGHT, it was wrong because we had disobeyed God`s leader.
This was the same reasoning that was used to keep the wives in line when our husbands made bone head decisions or expected us to meekly accept mistreatment.
My God it was like watching a train wreck sometimes, knowing that the direction you were required to go was stupid, knowing that it was dangerous, yet the feeling of helplessness of being required to submit and obey, or be found stiff necked and outside of God`s will was infuriating.
You did this thing which was absolutely wrong, this thing that you abhorred, because obediance was required. It was obey this man, or be stiff necked and outside of God`s will.
Jeff, you know? It must have made those guys CRAZY that you actually stood with/for God. They pointed their fingers of accusation at you and said *bad boy* You were painted as the one with spiritual problems....yet it was you whom was resisting evil.
Kirkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a great exposition on this very subject.
It delves deeply into the account of Abraham offering Isaac.
Faith (and it's resultant obedience) takes on many faces in a given culture....sometimes looking honorable and uplifting - sometimes horrid and criminal.
I've heard stories of TWI leadership telling folks to do bad things and saying that they should obey orders. IMO this is wrong because a Christian soldier would be ultimately accountable to God instead of TWI leadership.
In my splinter group I paid a high price for resisting twisted doctrines and bad biblical workmanship relying on God's providence and HIS ultimate blessing.
WOULD ANYBODY HAVE ANY FEEDBACK ON WHAT I PERCEIVE TO BE AN IMPORTANT ETHICAL DISTINCTION AS IT PERTAINS TO OBEDIENCE?
First Jeff--thanks for your service. I don't care if it was twenty years ago or yesterday--You have my thanks.
Of course we are to obey God rather than men--but moreover, we are to remove ourselves from false teaching and doctrine. We obey the Lord--and His example is obedience unto death.
Who is it that will judge you? Is it "Leadership"? No, it is Jesus Christ who is your judge--HE will judge all. So, if in your understanding you are told to do something you know to be wrong--don't do it. It doesn't get much clearer. What is it that is wrong or evil that God would EVER EVER ask you to do?
As for going beyond or opposed to what is written--
1 Cor 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
I just find it ironic that the "Leadership" of TWI or its "Splinters" with all their "Special knowledge" don't have the ethics of most unbelieving decent people.
I know MANY gay couples who are faithful in their "unions'. Who know adultery is WRONG!! Most people I know who do not claim the name of Jesus --will go OUT of their way NOT to hurt others!!! God's law is written on their hearts.
Look what happens when a conscience is seared. They can't tell right from wrong--and try to spread it like a disease.
You know what is right in YOUR heart--and you are responsible for YOUR heart--and God is working in YOUR heart---they are answerable for their own.
These are the guys who would have stoned the prophets. You are in good company---keep looking to Him--not men and all this becomes clearer.
ALSO: Roman 13:1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the [authorities] are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. 7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.
The difficulty here is discerning God's will in areas where the bible does not specifically speak to us. This requires determining biblical principles rather than explicit commands. This is our duty--otherwise we can be disobeying God's will. Obeying God against a government may result in incurring the governments wrath, but this can put a Christian in good company Matthew 5: 11, 12
Actually I'm not aware that it ever was overruled ........ Too many made the decision to give it up ,of their own choice.
O.K. WD, so what now.
What's the Lord going to think of those who put down TWI victims who were bullied and/or fooled into following Leadership who were on the surface kind, but underneath were ravenous wolves who used their positions to exploit the very lives of those who Christ paid for with his own blood. And then to make it worse, point out that they were better/smarter than these poor lost saps who were abused in so vile a fashion. (As always, I hope my non-Christian friends will find it in their hearts to appreciate the sentiment if nothing else.)
I cannot stand those who seem to think it is their place to put down victims. I mean a real strong visceral reaction.Instead of helping, they only succeed in showing off their imagined success and provoke those who were despitefully used and abused. I think that these types fit very closely with those who thought they were rich, but in truth were poor, blind, miserable, and naked in the early chapters of revelation. In my experience they cannot/will not deal with their own heartless attitude, which is a pity, because someday they will answer for their heartless boasting which they did over the wounded and killed. As Job's miserable comforters, they cannot face the real wickedness that was done, and allowed to happen in the course of this world, and only seek to further blame those who were ruined and make themselves appear better than the abused.
I hope that this post can be read without it being too personal, I'm just saying.
Jeff, you know? It must have made those guys CRAZY that you actually stood with/for God. They pointed their fingers of accusation at you and said *bad boy* You were painted as the one with spiritual problems....yet it was you whom was resisting evil.
Amazing how many times that happened.
Thank you rascal,
I dare not make such a bold claim for myself. But i have shared that to the best of my knowledge I have a clear conscience.
I've pointed out before that vpw was fond of saying things like
"the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command"
and to claim his way corps was modelled after the Marine Corps in some way
and meant to be a spiritual version of it.
However,
vpw never spent any time in the military, not the Reserves, nor the National Guard,
not even ROTC.
vpw's impressions of what goes on in the military seem to have been based more
on movies, television, and his own preconceived notions than on any actual DATA
like seeing how they work.
His version of the military seemed strong on ceremony, but light on teaching
skills to people that enable them to work alone or be in charge without being
overseen. In fact, problem-solving and independent thought seemed to be far
behind, while blind loyalty took the forefront.
Even though Wierwille was a very skilled manipulator and succeeded in holding things together while he abused many, I think it's fair to say that if he was a marine commander in a combat situation who abused his men so badly that he might not have survived the inevitable "friendly fire" incident.
What's the Lord going to think of those who put down TWI victims who were bullied and/or fooled into following Leadership who were on the surface kind, but underneath were ravenous wolves who used their positions to exploit the very lives of those who Christ paid for with his own blood. And then to make it worse, point out that they were better/smarter than these poor lost saps who were abused in so vile a fashion. (As always, I hope my non-Christian friends will find it in their hearts to appreciate the sentiment if nothing else.)
I cannot stand those who seem to think it is their place to put down victims. I mean a real strong visceral reaction.Instead of helping, they only succeed in showing off their imagined success and provoke those who were despitefully used and abused. I think that these types fit very closely with those who thought they were rich, but in truth were poor, blind, miserable, and naked in the early chapters of revelation. In my experience they cannot/will not deal with their own heartless attitude, which is a pity, because someday they will answer for their heartless boasting which they did over the wounded and killed. As Job's miserable comforters, they cannot face the real wickedness that was done, and allowed to happen in the course of this world, and only seek to further blame those who were ruined and make themselves appear better than the abused.
I hope that this post can be read without it being too personal, I'm just saying.
Jeff you seem to equate accepting the facts with laying blame it is not the same thing.
If someone drops a glass and breaks it, it is not blame to say that they did so, it is factual.
I offered no blame for anyone's actions I only stated that the actions were performed.
I contrasted those actions with what we were taught...over and over and over again in so many different ways. If you never heard anything else in the Way it would have been almost impossible to have missed the teaching that we were to align our actions with scripture.
Logically if we were taught to do this and it failed to happen it seems that the glitch in the system lays not with the instruction because we were taught to do so, but in the person doing what was instructed. Yes?
And if one chose not to do what he had learned then the result would be due to the failure on the part of the student to apply the teaching.
It seems that rather than excusing oneself from the responsibility by blaming others , the student would be better served by accepting their error and rectifying it from scripture.
I cannot stand those who seem to think it is their place to put down victims. I mean a real strong visceral reaction.Instead of helping,
You may feel differently but I fail to see how it is helping masking the problem , I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do. Me I won't lay that at God's feet. I'll just acknowledge that I just may be the problem in the equation rather than blame someone else.
I'll just acknowledge that I just may be the problem in the equation rather than blame someone else. [/color]
Well WD, depending on how you apply this sentiment here at the greasespot, my waiting may be over......
Biblically speaking IMO the blame lies with those who treated the ministry of God's Word as a game where those who were not part of the problem were destroyed regularly and the abusers were sanctioned and provided for even until today. I still get mad when I think of men like Donny Fuegot, Ralph Dubovski, and Barry white who once were loving ministers but when they wouldn't "go with the flow" were discarded like so much garbage.
In my splinter group this same attitude of obeying and honoring leadership at all costs is the norm.
I believe that for whatever reason, you place too much responsibility on the victims and don't seem able to lay the blame where it belongs. Wierwille was a ravenous wolf in sheep's clothing. I like the "picture" of Wierwille that TWI painted, but IMO, if he was a Marine commander who discarded his best people, abused his men's wives, daughters, and granddaughters, and admitted to letting his own daughters fondle his privates; his own men would have shot him and the military authorities would have looked the other way.
Well WD, depending on how you apply this sentiment here at the greasespot, my waiting may be over......
Biblically speaking IMO the blame lies with those who treated the ministry of God's Word as a game where those who were not part of the problem were destroyed regularly and the abusers were sanctioned and provided for even until today. I still get mad when I think of men like Donny Fuegot, Ralph Dubovski, and Barry white who once were loving ministers but when they wouldn't "go with the flow" were discarded like so much garbage.
In my splinter group this same attitude of obeying and honoring leadership at all costs is the norm.
I believe that for whatever reason, you place too much responsibility on the victims and don't seem able to lay the blame where it belongs. Wierwille was a ravenous wolf in sheep's clothing. I like the "picture" of Wierwille that TWI painted, but IMO, if he was a Marine commander who discarded his best people, abused his men's wives, daughters, and granddaughters, and admitted to letting his own daughters fondle his privates; his own men would have shot him and the military authorities would have looked the other way.
If one is in the mind to lay blame, which I am not ,then the blame would belong where it is proven to be the fault ,not supposed. I have no problem with the facts being examined and if someone feels the need to lay blame as it is merited. I'd like to see the facts for your claims by facts meaning real ones, I think they are lacking for some of your claims above. Have you seen them or do you just read what someone said was true?
As I said You may feel differently but I fail to see how it is helping masking the problem , I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do. Me I won't lay that at God's feet. I'll just acknowledge that I just may be the problem in the equation rather than blame someone else.
O. K. Jeff, after reading and re-reading the posts trying to figure it out, I now understand what you are asking. Folks who have never been in the military don't get what you are asking. Now that you are "out" of the military how do you "turn it off" obeying, respecting the commands of men? In the military you trusted the leadership of your commanding officer. You trusted the heart of the program.
Give me our military over a religious organization any day. Biblically, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Man made religion, spiritual abuse in the name of said religion is cruel and abusive. The Lord Jesus Christ knew that very well. He fulfilled all the laws. He was obedient even unto death. He did it all. How did He do that? AAAHHH, there my brother is the answer. If He had let people, religion, etc. etc., sway Him or determine Him where would we be now?
O. K. Jeff, after reading and re-reading the posts trying to figure it out, I now understand what you are asking. Folks who have never been in the military don't get what you are asking. Now that you are "out" of the military how do you "turn it off" obeying, respecting the commands of men? In the military you trusted the leadership of your commanding officer. You trusted the heart of the program.
Give me our military over a religious organization any day. Biblically, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Man made religion, spiritual abuse in the name of said religion is cruel and abusive. The Lord Jesus Christ knew that very well. He fulfilled all the laws. He was obedient even unto death. He did it all. How did He do that? AAAHHH, there my brother is the answer. If He had let people, religion, etc. etc., sway Him or determine Him where would we be now?
Look to the life of Jesus Christ for answers.
I can appreciate Jeff's perspective considering his background in the military. Although I think it is possible to Turn it off just as one turned it on at some point. but that's another discussion. However to put forth that we did not have choices based on his personal situation is not a fair representation it was not a one size fits all situation. Had everyone been former military I'd say you / he had a point in why they would think that way, but that was not the case. Each had a choice what to do and think despite any influences which may have been a consideration in that choice.
One of the points that I seeking to make clear in this thread was that even as a Marine I had the responsibility to evaluate the legitimacy of orders that I had recieved. This is a serious matter IMO and not to be taken lightly. If I ever was in a situation where I would have had to disobey orders, it was not in the Marine Corps, it was in my splinter group.
Biblically, I believe my splinter leader had long ago, weeded out everyone who was willing to take a stand against his twisted leadership, in many respects I think that it is possible that I was the last one that might have been willing to resist. For years he carefully cultivated his control over his followers at the expense of good biblical workmanship, even turning my wife against me. In the end, I paid a price for my stubborness. But if I would have been willing to pay a price for disobedience as a Marine if the stakes were high enough, then I think that I did the best that I could in resisting the splinter group leader even though I paid a price for it.
White Dove,
I do not believe that the folks that I've come to care about are spitting in the face of God! And even if twisted TWI leadership gave rise to bitterness in some, Jesus Christ died for ME when I was an enemy of God, and God's goodness led me to him. Before I allow the accusation of "spittin in the face of God" to move me for or against anyone I'm going to do my best to be sure that the one who's using this rallying cry doesn't have his own head up his butt.
This is the kind of thing that TWI used to do when they accused the wrong people of being possesed. Or when Wierwille wanted people to quit thinking about things and follow his lead. That is quite a feat, that a woman abuser could get good Christians to follow him anywhere.
In my mind, even though I don't personally know any of the people who I've chosen to believe here at the Greasespot, I've heard enough to believe that such things really happened even if I can't personally verify everything thaty has been said.
They seem to be speaking the truth to me, and so you saying "spitting in the face of God" seems to be the same tripe that TWI and my splinter group spewed.
I do not believe that the folks that I've come to care about are spitting in the face of God! And even if twisted TWI leadership gave rise to bitterness in some, Jesus Christ died for ME when I was an enemy of God, and God's goodness led me to him. Before I allow the accusation of "spittin in the face of God" to move me for or against anyone I'm going to do my best to be sure that the one who's using this rallying cry doesn't have his own head up his butt.
This is the kind of thing that TWI used to do when they accused the wrong people of being possesed. Or when Wierwille wanted people to quit thinking about things and follow his lead. That is quite a feat, that a woman abuser could get good Christians to follow him anywhere.
In my mind, even though I don't personally know any of the people who I've chosen to believe here at the Greasespot, I've heard enough to believe that such things really happened even if I can't personally verify everything thaty has been said.
They seem to be speaking the truth to me, and so you saying "spitting in the face of God" seems to be the same tripe that TWI and my splinter group spewed.
I think you may have confused a few posts there Jeff what I said was
I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do.
The context of what I said was in response to this claim
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Uh...where did this get overruled? Ah, got it! When TWI replaced itself as God and the Prez as the MOGFODAT, surplanting Jesus.
I know of no case where this was overruled except by those who made their own choice to do so. Scripture says God can make a way where there is no way. To claim that you had no other way ,that you were overruled ,looks to me to say God is a liar when he says he will make a way. I'd submit that it was we that missed the choice not God that was overruled.
I think you may have confused a few posts there Jeff what I said was
It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do.
I know of no case where this was overruled except by those who made their own choice to do so. Scripture says God can make a way where there is no way. To claim that you had no other way ,that you were overruled ,looks to me to say God is a liar when he says he will make a way. I'd submit that it was we that missed the choice not God that was overruled.
WD,
This is how I think about this topic for what it is worth.
We all have accountability before God for our actions. But by definition a Christian ministry is to help those who are looking for some kind of change of direction in their lives. since this is the case a ministry will deal with folks with all kinds of problems and they may need to learn and/or apply many new things in order to become a better person.
When a ministry such as TWI becomes predatory instead of helpful then THEY SPIT IN THE FACE OF GOD by exploiting the same weaknesses that it is their job to help people overcome.
Compared to TWI I don't believe anybody here at the Greasespot is spitting in the face of God.
In my mind it is easy to draw a comparison between an honorable Christian soldier and headhunting savages. Wierwille, Geer, Martindale and doubtlessly others fit more closely to canabalistic tribesman than honorable soldiers IMO because of what THEY DID.
This is how I think about this topic for what it is worth.
We all have accountability before God for our actions. But by definition a Christian ministry is to help those who are looking for some kind of change of direction in their lives. since this is the case a ministry will deal with folks with all kinds of problems and they may need to learn and/or apply many new things in order to become a better person.
When a ministry such as TWI becomes predatory instead of helpful then THEY SPIT IN THE FACE OF GOD by exploiting the same weaknesses that it is their job to help people overcome.
Ok I'm with you until here. I don't think that has been determined as true at this point, what has been determined is that some people were predatory and I have never disagreed with that as they had due process of law to determine such, others have not as as such the jury is still out literally Your premise is based on your opinion that it is so. That opinion is yours to own but it is not a given until the process is completed
Compared to TWI I don't believe anybody here at the Greasespot is spitting in the face of God.
If scripture says we have choice ,free will and man claims that we did not then one is calling God a liar, I'd say that is figurativly at least spitting in his face. If you want to leave it at calling God a liar that's ok by me as well.
In my mind it is easy to draw a comparison between an honorable Christian soldier and headhunting savages. Wierwille, Geer, Martindale and doubtlessly others fit more closely to cannibalistic tribesman than honorable soldiers IMO because of what THEY DID.
I believe that there will be no ultimate justice as it relates to TWI abuse until the Lord has HIS DAY. Until then a valid exhortation for a Christian soldier IMO is to "endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. ( II Timothy)
In TWI it seems to me that Wierwille carefully nurtured an attitude that secular authorities were to be ignored or even thwarted IMO. If the U.S. government had a history of persecuting Christians as any number of other governments have in recent history I could understand it. But it appears to me now that one of the main reasons for this attitude was to hide his perversions. Many of the sharings here at the Greasespot make it clear to me that the laws that TWI chose to violate were not inventions of wicked secular men, but legitimate laws that are intended to protect the common good. I'm certain that Wierwille deliberately built an aversion to any authority but his into the "TWI group think." I've seen this with my own eyes in my splinter group.
Three or four times before I was kicked out the leader boasted to the entire fellowship that if people only knew what he did in the ministry he'd go to prison!!!! After one of these times I heard him say to everyone within ear-shot that he felt he was battling all the forces of hell while he was sharing. Even though I believe this man is off his rocker, (so-to-speak) I'M STILL NOT CERTAIN WHERE THE LINE BETWEEN CRIME AND THIS MAN'S INSANITY ACTUALLY IS. But I am certain that he used this sentiment to build on his authority within the group, even though at the time I considered it a very foolish thing to say over and over again.
White Dove,
I believe that there are plenty of laws that would condemn Wierwille's actions in any court of law that are just and reasonable laws. And even though TWI appears to have for the most part thwarted the justice of the legal system, his actions will be harshly avenged by the Lord when the Lord has his say. Until then, I have heard more than enough for me to speak of these things as established facts. In the mean time, I may have to "endure hardness...." After all, a guy's gotta have goals.
In the mean time, I think it would be a good thing to understand that suffering for taking a stand is actually a good thing, especially when the stand is not twisted by certain TWI leadership propoganda and practices. A Christian soldier (IMO) should understand this. Many non-Christians throughout history have paid prices for what they believe to be true, my hat goes off to them also.
I can tell you how it was taught to me. We were given the example of Peter being told to come out to Jesus on the boat during the storm.
It was explained how Peter obeyed his leader no matter how nutty the suggestion seemed to his 5 senses. When he began to look at the storm around him, instead of his leader, he began to sink.
If we wanted to see a miracle, if we wanted to be a doulos, we must obey our leaders. It was then added, EVEN if the leader was wrong, God would make it ok because he would honor the commitment of our hearts.
I have quoted Rascal here
That is a wonderful example-- of course VPW left the key point out--(I am so surprised!!!!)
What VPW failed to mention was the fact that these men followed Christ and Continued to follow Christ because DAILY they saw how Christ lived his life, how he treated his fellow man, how his actions were in line with scripture, And the miracles he performed.
So when Christ called to Peter--Peter listened because he knew from his OWN FIVE SENSES observations
the Christ was the real deal.
Compare that with VPW-- anyone ever see VPW perform a miracle? He talked about the miracles in his life-- but where are the witnesses.
Most of us saw or heard reliable testimony of how he treated his fellow man
And "Rewriting" scripture IS NOT The same as following scripture
And to add icing on the cake we were told to ignore our Five senses--
Gee I think think something might have been amiss here
And Jeff, A huge Love Hugs and thank you for your service to mine and our country
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Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Uh...where did this get overruled? Ah, got it! When TWI replaced itself as God and the Prez as the MOGFODAT, surplanting Jesus.
I think to go beyond Biblical principle would require some explicit "revelation" from God. Disregard of principle should not become the norm. I'm thinking of an OT example where a prophet asked another to hit him (where hitting other people is not the norm). In the NT, when Gentiles were beginning to accept Christ, a lot of the old Jewish religious laws were broken (eg, eating with Gentiles).
But (for example) to go beyond the clear teaching that adultery is wrong is not the norm. This is clearly laid out in both OT and NT.
If God really wants an individual to do something radically different from what is written, he is smart enough to make sure that individual knows.
Not sure what "bad things" you are saying were "ordered" - most of the bad stuff wasn't ordered so much as alluded to, shown by example, or praised. They also relied heavily on the "higher powers" stuff in Rom 13. When one's barriers are so completely broken down, and coupled with the maxim that the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command, and there is fertile ground for some of the abuses in TWI with hitting children and wives.TWI also taught, "be exceptional, don't expect to be an exception."
I understand your viewpoint about higher authority (responsibility to God). While God is not tied by man's laws, he also isn't so stupid as to expect his people to flagrantly flout legality on a whim. To do an apparently bad thing in the face of clear instruction otherwise would be very exceptional (thinking here of say -
2 Sam 20:21 The matter is not so: but a man of mount Ephraim, Sheba the son of Bichri by name, hath lifted up his hand against the king, even against David: deliver him only, and I will depart from the city. And the woman said unto Joab, Behold, his head shall be thrown to thee over the wall. 22 Then the woman went unto all the people in her wisdom. And they cut off the head of Sheba the son of Bichri, and cast it out to Joab. And he blew a trumpet, and they retired from the city, every man to his tent. And Joab returned to Jerusalem unto the king.
- where the murder (execution?) of a rebel was praised.)
Can't comment from the point of view of a soldier, Christian or otherwise, in combat; but in normal day to day living the norm would be to live within one's culture and God will make it very clear when culture is to be disregarded. And if any sort of Christian leadership, whether TWI or some church, goes beyond the laws of the land, God will make that clear. He is not, however, going to go in the face of his own laws!
Good on you for resisting the wresting of the scriptures. You were the one standing for God; not the splinter group leader.
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WhiteDove
Actually I'm not aware that it ever was overruled ........ Too many made the decision to give it up ,of their own choice.
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WordWolf
I've pointed out before that vpw was fond of saying things like
"the suggestion of a general is tantamount to a command"
and to claim his way corps was modelled after the Marine Corps in some way
and meant to be a spiritual version of it.
However,
vpw never spent any time in the military, not the Reserves, nor the National Guard,
not even ROTC.
vpw's impressions of what goes on in the military seem to have been based more
on movies, television, and his own preconceived notions than on any actual DATA
like seeing how they work.
His version of the military seemed strong on ceremony, but light on teaching
skills to people that enable them to work alone or be in charge without being
overseen. In fact, problem-solving and independent thought seemed to be far
behind, while blind loyalty took the forefront.
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rascal
First off, thank you for your service to this country Jeff. A marine IS the real deal.
I can tell you how it was taught to me. We were given the example of Peter being told to come out to Jesus on the boat during the storm.
It was explained how Peter obeyed his leader no matter how nutty the suggestion seemed to his 5 senses. When he began to look at the storm around him, instead of his leader, he began to sink.
If we wanted to see a miracle, if we wanted to be a doulos, we must obey our leaders. It was then added, EVEN if the leader was wrong, God would make it ok because he would honor the commitment of our hearts.
Even if we were RIGHT, it was wrong because we had disobeyed God`s leader.
This was the same reasoning that was used to keep the wives in line when our husbands made bone head decisions or expected us to meekly accept mistreatment.
My God it was like watching a train wreck sometimes, knowing that the direction you were required to go was stupid, knowing that it was dangerous, yet the feeling of helplessness of being required to submit and obey, or be found stiff necked and outside of God`s will was infuriating.
You did this thing which was absolutely wrong, this thing that you abhorred, because obediance was required. It was obey this man, or be stiff necked and outside of God`s will.
It was a horrible sick teaching.
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rascal
Jeff, you know? It must have made those guys CRAZY that you actually stood with/for God. They pointed their fingers of accusation at you and said *bad boy* You were painted as the one with spiritual problems....yet it was you whom was resisting evil.
Amazing how many times that happened.
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Yanagisawa
Kirkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a great exposition on this very subject.
It delves deeply into the account of Abraham offering Isaac.
Faith (and it's resultant obedience) takes on many faces in a given culture....sometimes looking honorable and uplifting - sometimes horrid and criminal.
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geisha779
First Jeff--thanks for your service. I don't care if it was twenty years ago or yesterday--You have my thanks.
Of course we are to obey God rather than men--but moreover, we are to remove ourselves from false teaching and doctrine. We obey the Lord--and His example is obedience unto death.
Who is it that will judge you? Is it "Leadership"? No, it is Jesus Christ who is your judge--HE will judge all. So, if in your understanding you are told to do something you know to be wrong--don't do it. It doesn't get much clearer. What is it that is wrong or evil that God would EVER EVER ask you to do?
As for going beyond or opposed to what is written--
1 Cor 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
I just find it ironic that the "Leadership" of TWI or its "Splinters" with all their "Special knowledge" don't have the ethics of most unbelieving decent people.
I know MANY gay couples who are faithful in their "unions'. Who know adultery is WRONG!! Most people I know who do not claim the name of Jesus --will go OUT of their way NOT to hurt others!!! God's law is written on their hearts.
Look what happens when a conscience is seared. They can't tell right from wrong--and try to spread it like a disease.
You know what is right in YOUR heart--and you are responsible for YOUR heart--and God is working in YOUR heart---they are answerable for their own.
These are the guys who would have stoned the prophets. You are in good company---keep looking to Him--not men and all this becomes clearer.
ALSO: Roman 13:1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the [authorities] are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. 7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.
The difficulty here is discerning God's will in areas where the bible does not specifically speak to us. This requires determining biblical principles rather than explicit commands. This is our duty--otherwise we can be disobeying God's will. Obeying God against a government may result in incurring the governments wrath, but this can put a Christian in good company Matthew 5: 11, 12
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JeffSjo
O.K. WD, so what now.
What's the Lord going to think of those who put down TWI victims who were bullied and/or fooled into following Leadership who were on the surface kind, but underneath were ravenous wolves who used their positions to exploit the very lives of those who Christ paid for with his own blood. And then to make it worse, point out that they were better/smarter than these poor lost saps who were abused in so vile a fashion. (As always, I hope my non-Christian friends will find it in their hearts to appreciate the sentiment if nothing else.)
I cannot stand those who seem to think it is their place to put down victims. I mean a real strong visceral reaction.Instead of helping, they only succeed in showing off their imagined success and provoke those who were despitefully used and abused. I think that these types fit very closely with those who thought they were rich, but in truth were poor, blind, miserable, and naked in the early chapters of revelation. In my experience they cannot/will not deal with their own heartless attitude, which is a pity, because someday they will answer for their heartless boasting which they did over the wounded and killed. As Job's miserable comforters, they cannot face the real wickedness that was done, and allowed to happen in the course of this world, and only seek to further blame those who were ruined and make themselves appear better than the abused.
I hope that this post can be read without it being too personal, I'm just saying.
Thank you rascal,
I dare not make such a bold claim for myself. But i have shared that to the best of my knowledge I have a clear conscience.
Even though Wierwille was a very skilled manipulator and succeeded in holding things together while he abused many, I think it's fair to say that if he was a marine commander in a combat situation who abused his men so badly that he might not have survived the inevitable "friendly fire" incident.
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JeffSjo
Dear Yanagisawa,
I probably won't take the time to read that. I would be interested in your feedback and how it might apply to the thread however.
AS ALWAYS, THANK YOU GEISHA, OKCWOW78, AND DAVE.
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cheranne
vp never would have made it thru Basic Training IF he was in a christian soldier army,they would have
kicked him out as DISHONORABLE!
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WhiteDove
O.K. WD, so what now.
What's the Lord going to think of those who put down TWI victims who were bullied and/or fooled into following Leadership who were on the surface kind, but underneath were ravenous wolves who used their positions to exploit the very lives of those who Christ paid for with his own blood. And then to make it worse, point out that they were better/smarter than these poor lost saps who were abused in so vile a fashion. (As always, I hope my non-Christian friends will find it in their hearts to appreciate the sentiment if nothing else.)
I cannot stand those who seem to think it is their place to put down victims. I mean a real strong visceral reaction.Instead of helping, they only succeed in showing off their imagined success and provoke those who were despitefully used and abused. I think that these types fit very closely with those who thought they were rich, but in truth were poor, blind, miserable, and naked in the early chapters of revelation. In my experience they cannot/will not deal with their own heartless attitude, which is a pity, because someday they will answer for their heartless boasting which they did over the wounded and killed. As Job's miserable comforters, they cannot face the real wickedness that was done, and allowed to happen in the course of this world, and only seek to further blame those who were ruined and make themselves appear better than the abused.
I hope that this post can be read without it being too personal, I'm just saying.
Jeff you seem to equate accepting the facts with laying blame it is not the same thing.
If someone drops a glass and breaks it, it is not blame to say that they did so, it is factual.
I offered no blame for anyone's actions I only stated that the actions were performed.
I contrasted those actions with what we were taught...over and over and over again in so many different ways. If you never heard anything else in the Way it would have been almost impossible to have missed the teaching that we were to align our actions with scripture.
Logically if we were taught to do this and it failed to happen it seems that the glitch in the system lays not with the instruction because we were taught to do so, but in the person doing what was instructed. Yes?
And if one chose not to do what he had learned then the result would be due to the failure on the part of the student to apply the teaching.
It seems that rather than excusing oneself from the responsibility by blaming others , the student would be better served by accepting their error and rectifying it from scripture.
You may feel differently but I fail to see how it is helping masking the problem , I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do. Me I won't lay that at God's feet. I'll just acknowledge that I just may be the problem in the equation rather than blame someone else.
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cheranne
That doesn't even make any sense.
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JeffSjo
Well WD, depending on how you apply this sentiment here at the greasespot, my waiting may be over......
Biblically speaking IMO the blame lies with those who treated the ministry of God's Word as a game where those who were not part of the problem were destroyed regularly and the abusers were sanctioned and provided for even until today. I still get mad when I think of men like Donny Fuegot, Ralph Dubovski, and Barry white who once were loving ministers but when they wouldn't "go with the flow" were discarded like so much garbage.
In my splinter group this same attitude of obeying and honoring leadership at all costs is the norm.
I believe that for whatever reason, you place too much responsibility on the victims and don't seem able to lay the blame where it belongs. Wierwille was a ravenous wolf in sheep's clothing. I like the "picture" of Wierwille that TWI painted, but IMO, if he was a Marine commander who discarded his best people, abused his men's wives, daughters, and granddaughters, and admitted to letting his own daughters fondle his privates; his own men would have shot him and the military authorities would have looked the other way.
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WhiteDove
If one is in the mind to lay blame, which I am not ,then the blame would belong where it is proven to be the fault ,not supposed. I have no problem with the facts being examined and if someone feels the need to lay blame as it is merited. I'd like to see the facts for your claims by facts meaning real ones, I think they are lacking for some of your claims above. Have you seen them or do you just read what someone said was true?
As I said You may feel differently but I fail to see how it is helping masking the problem , I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do. Me I won't lay that at God's feet. I'll just acknowledge that I just may be the problem in the equation rather than blame someone else.
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kimberly
O. K. Jeff, after reading and re-reading the posts trying to figure it out, I now understand what you are asking. Folks who have never been in the military don't get what you are asking. Now that you are "out" of the military how do you "turn it off" obeying, respecting the commands of men? In the military you trusted the leadership of your commanding officer. You trusted the heart of the program.
Give me our military over a religious organization any day. Biblically, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Man made religion, spiritual abuse in the name of said religion is cruel and abusive. The Lord Jesus Christ knew that very well. He fulfilled all the laws. He was obedient even unto death. He did it all. How did He do that? AAAHHH, there my brother is the answer. If He had let people, religion, etc. etc., sway Him or determine Him where would we be now?
Look to the life of Jesus Christ for answers.
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WhiteDove
I can appreciate Jeff's perspective considering his background in the military. Although I think it is possible to Turn it off just as one turned it on at some point. but that's another discussion. However to put forth that we did not have choices based on his personal situation is not a fair representation it was not a one size fits all situation. Had everyone been former military I'd say you / he had a point in why they would think that way, but that was not the case. Each had a choice what to do and think despite any influences which may have been a consideration in that choice.
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JeffSjo
Dear Kimberly,
One of the points that I seeking to make clear in this thread was that even as a Marine I had the responsibility to evaluate the legitimacy of orders that I had recieved. This is a serious matter IMO and not to be taken lightly. If I ever was in a situation where I would have had to disobey orders, it was not in the Marine Corps, it was in my splinter group.
Biblically, I believe my splinter leader had long ago, weeded out everyone who was willing to take a stand against his twisted leadership, in many respects I think that it is possible that I was the last one that might have been willing to resist. For years he carefully cultivated his control over his followers at the expense of good biblical workmanship, even turning my wife against me. In the end, I paid a price for my stubborness. But if I would have been willing to pay a price for disobedience as a Marine if the stakes were high enough, then I think that I did the best that I could in resisting the splinter group leader even though I paid a price for it.
White Dove,
I do not believe that the folks that I've come to care about are spitting in the face of God! And even if twisted TWI leadership gave rise to bitterness in some, Jesus Christ died for ME when I was an enemy of God, and God's goodness led me to him. Before I allow the accusation of "spittin in the face of God" to move me for or against anyone I'm going to do my best to be sure that the one who's using this rallying cry doesn't have his own head up his butt.
This is the kind of thing that TWI used to do when they accused the wrong people of being possesed. Or when Wierwille wanted people to quit thinking about things and follow his lead. That is quite a feat, that a woman abuser could get good Christians to follow him anywhere.
In my mind, even though I don't personally know any of the people who I've chosen to believe here at the Greasespot, I've heard enough to believe that such things really happened even if I can't personally verify everything thaty has been said.
They seem to be speaking the truth to me, and so you saying "spitting in the face of God" seems to be the same tripe that TWI and my splinter group spewed.
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WhiteDove
I think you may have confused a few posts there Jeff what I said was
I think honest evaluation rather than excusing oneself from their own choices is non productive to a solution. To claim that one had no choice when in fact there always is a choice seems pointless. And when that choice is mirrored with scripture that clearly instructs us as Christians the right choice. It seems to me to spit in the face of God when we say we just could not do what scripture says we are to do.
The context of what I said was in response to this claim
I know of no case where this was overruled except by those who made their own choice to do so. Scripture says God can make a way where there is no way. To claim that you had no other way ,that you were overruled ,looks to me to say God is a liar when he says he will make a way. I'd submit that it was we that missed the choice not God that was overruled.
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JeffSjo
WD,
This is how I think about this topic for what it is worth.
We all have accountability before God for our actions. But by definition a Christian ministry is to help those who are looking for some kind of change of direction in their lives. since this is the case a ministry will deal with folks with all kinds of problems and they may need to learn and/or apply many new things in order to become a better person.
When a ministry such as TWI becomes predatory instead of helpful then THEY SPIT IN THE FACE OF GOD by exploiting the same weaknesses that it is their job to help people overcome.
Compared to TWI I don't believe anybody here at the Greasespot is spitting in the face of God.
In my mind it is easy to draw a comparison between an honorable Christian soldier and headhunting savages. Wierwille, Geer, Martindale and doubtlessly others fit more closely to canabalistic tribesman than honorable soldiers IMO because of what THEY DID.
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WhiteDove
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JeffSjo
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JeffSjo
I believe that there will be no ultimate justice as it relates to TWI abuse until the Lord has HIS DAY. Until then a valid exhortation for a Christian soldier IMO is to "endure hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. ( II Timothy)
In TWI it seems to me that Wierwille carefully nurtured an attitude that secular authorities were to be ignored or even thwarted IMO. If the U.S. government had a history of persecuting Christians as any number of other governments have in recent history I could understand it. But it appears to me now that one of the main reasons for this attitude was to hide his perversions. Many of the sharings here at the Greasespot make it clear to me that the laws that TWI chose to violate were not inventions of wicked secular men, but legitimate laws that are intended to protect the common good. I'm certain that Wierwille deliberately built an aversion to any authority but his into the "TWI group think." I've seen this with my own eyes in my splinter group.
Three or four times before I was kicked out the leader boasted to the entire fellowship that if people only knew what he did in the ministry he'd go to prison!!!! After one of these times I heard him say to everyone within ear-shot that he felt he was battling all the forces of hell while he was sharing. Even though I believe this man is off his rocker, (so-to-speak) I'M STILL NOT CERTAIN WHERE THE LINE BETWEEN CRIME AND THIS MAN'S INSANITY ACTUALLY IS. But I am certain that he used this sentiment to build on his authority within the group, even though at the time I considered it a very foolish thing to say over and over again.
White Dove,
I believe that there are plenty of laws that would condemn Wierwille's actions in any court of law that are just and reasonable laws. And even though TWI appears to have for the most part thwarted the justice of the legal system, his actions will be harshly avenged by the Lord when the Lord has his say. Until then, I have heard more than enough for me to speak of these things as established facts. In the mean time, I may have to "endure hardness...." After all, a guy's gotta have goals.
In the mean time, I think it would be a good thing to understand that suffering for taking a stand is actually a good thing, especially when the stand is not twisted by certain TWI leadership propoganda and practices. A Christian soldier (IMO) should understand this. Many non-Christians throughout history have paid prices for what they believe to be true, my hat goes off to them also.
(edited for grammar)
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templelady
I have quoted Rascal here
That is a wonderful example-- of course VPW left the key point out--(I am so surprised!!!!)
What VPW failed to mention was the fact that these men followed Christ and Continued to follow Christ because DAILY they saw how Christ lived his life, how he treated his fellow man, how his actions were in line with scripture, And the miracles he performed.
So when Christ called to Peter--Peter listened because he knew from his OWN FIVE SENSES observations
the Christ was the real deal.
Compare that with VPW-- anyone ever see VPW perform a miracle? He talked about the miracles in his life-- but where are the witnesses.
Most of us saw or heard reliable testimony of how he treated his fellow man
And "Rewriting" scripture IS NOT The same as following scripture
And to add icing on the cake we were told to ignore our Five senses--
Gee I think think something might have been amiss here
And Jeff, A huge Love Hugs and thank you for your service to mine and our country
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