(Please note that the following does not necessarily reflect my current beliefs.)
When a person is physically born, they have:
(1.) body (skin and bones, etc.)
( 2.) soul (breath-life---which starts at first breath and ends at the last)
but no spirit.
God can not talk to them because He is Spirit and can only talk to spirit. :blink:
This is the same as people in the O.T.
Certain people in the O.T. had spirit placed upon them on a conditional basis.
That made it possible for God to speak to them.
After Pentecost, the new birth became available to those who satisfied the conditions in Romans 10:9 & 10.
(ie: Confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.)
This plants a seed in the person which is permanent. It is Christ in you. It is Christ's eyes behind your eyes, Christ's ears behind your ears, yada, yada. It is referred to as the "gift" of holy spirit.(note the lower case usage.)
The person is now a three-fold being. (Body, soul, AND spirit.)
It represents eternal life. Speaking in tongues is an outward manifestation of its presence. <_<
It is a direct connection to God.
Okay---What's that have to do with angels?
If you have a direct connection to God, you have no need for angels to intercede.
One exception to this would be children who have not yet reached the "age of accountability."
They are appointed a "guardian angel" until they can accept salvation on their own.
(Based on one or two verses in The Book Of Hebrews.)
Now, keep in mind that TWI taught that 1/3 of the angels were cast out of Heaven when Lucifer (the original bright and morning star) was expelled from God's presence because he sought to overthrow God's throne. They (those angels who conspired with Lucifer) now roam the earth seeking to create havoc among Earth's inhabitants.
They are what TWI referred to as Devil Spirits. So, what you call angels, TWI calls Devil Spirits.
That's probably as clear as mud but it's the way I remember it.
(Please note that the following does not necessarily reflect my current beliefs.)
When a person is physically born, they have:
(1.) body (skin and bones, etc.)
( 2.) soul (breath-life---which starts at first breath and ends at the last)
but no spirit.
God can not talk to them because He is Spirit and can only talk to spirit. :blink:
This is the same as people in the O.T.
Certain people in the O.T. had spirit placed upon them on a conditional basis.
That made it possible for God to speak to them.
First of all, no spirit? So could God not talk with Adam and Eve, or did Adam and Eve lose their spirits when they went out from the Garden?
And the way you say "had spirit placed upon them on a conditional basis"...what exactly is "spirit"? Is it an energy or force that God plants into us? Wouldn't that mean it's just synonymous with grace? Or is it rather an actual, living component of the human being?
After Pentecost, the new birth became available to those who satisfied the conditions in Romans 10:9 & 10.
(ie: Confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.)
This plants a seed in the person which ispermanent. It is Christ in you. It is Christ's eyes behind your eyes, Christ's ears behind your ears, yada, yada. It is referred to as the "gift" of holy spirit.(note the lower case usage.)
The person is now a three-fold being. (Body, soul, AND spirit.)
It represents eternal life. Speaking in tongues is an outward manifestation of its presence. <_<
It is a direct connection to God.
If the seed is permanent, then what is one to make of many here at this site who have rejected TWI, the "hedge of protection" and the "one true household"? Does it mean they have lost the seed, which as you point out is contradictory to TWI teaching.
And also, the Jews and early Christians and all Christian denominations today believed/believe the spirit (the component of the human being) to be a living entity, not just a gift of "holy spirit" which sounds impersonal. This goes back to my previous question...is the spirit a living component of the human being, or is it just a force, ultimately controlled by God, that drives the body and soul/mind?
Okay---What's that have to do with angels?
If you have a direct connection to God, you have no need for angels to intercede.
One exception to this would be children who have not yet reached the "age of accountability."
They are appointed a "guardian angel" until they can accept salvation on their own.
(Based on one or two verses in The Book Of Hebrews.)
Steph and I were talking about angels once in passing conversation and she echoed what you've said here.
Now, keep in mind that TWI taught that 1/3 of the angels were cast out of Heaven when Lucifer (the original bright and morning star) was expelled from God's presence because he sought to overthrow God's throne. They (those angels who conspired with Lucifer) now roam the earth seeking to create havoc among Earth's inhabitants.
They are what TWI referred to as Devil Spirits. So, what you call angels, TWI calls Devil Spirits.
That's probably as clear as mud but it's the way I remember it.
Rather, what I would call demons, TWI calls Devil Spirits...no?
First of all, no spirit? So could God not talk with Adam and Eve, or did Adam and Eve lose their spirits when they went out from the Garden?
TWI taught that when Adam and Eve lost their spirit, God had to come into concretion and speak to them through their five senses.
And the way you say "had spirit placed upon them on a conditional basis"...what exactly is "spirit"? Is it an energy or force that God plants into us? Wouldn't that mean it's just synonymous with grace? Or is it rather an actual, living component of the human being?
This was rather vague in TWI, but to them it was more an impersonal force or power.
If the seed is permanent, then what is one to make of many here at this site who have rejected TWI, the "hedge of protection" and the "one true household"? Does it mean they have lost the seed, which as you point out is contradictory to TWI teaching.
They would probably say we were never "really" saved to begin with!
And also, the Jews and early Christians and all Christian denominations today believed/believe the spirit (the component of the human being) to be a living entity, not just a gift of "holy spirit" which sounds impersonal. This goes back to my previous question...is the spirit a living component of the human being, or is it just a force, ultimately controlled by God, that drives the body and soul/mind?
Most Christians today consider the Holy Spirit to be the third person of the Trinity. They also consider the "spirit of man" to be part of the human being. TWI said the "spirit of man" was another name for the "soul" and not the same as "holy spirit" which was a gift from God and gave us communication with Him.
I believe the Jews and first century Christians understood man's spirit as the life force which made him alive, and that man was a living soul, or creature (not so much that he "had" a soul). They also considered the spirit of God to be the operational power and presence of God, which after Pentecost was also called the spirit of Christ. It isn't a completely impersonal force, like TWI taught, but it isn't a separate person, like Trinitarians think.
Steph and I were talking about angels once in passing conversation and she echoed what you've said here.
Rather, what I would call demons, TWI calls Devil Spirits...no?
Yes. TWI didn't like using the word "demon" because they thought it sounded too "cute" like a little guy with a pitchfork. They called them "devil spirits" which is based on the KJV translation, but actually isn't accurate.
As for angels, it was like Waysider said. TWI said angels protected those who were going to be born again, but after they got born again angels were no longer needed. This is based on a misunderstanding of one verse (which is not unusual for TWI).
If the seed is permanent, then what is one to make of many here at this site who have rejected TWI, the "hedge of protection" and the "one true household"? rolleyes.gif Does it mean they have lost the seed, which as you point out is contradictory to TWI teaching.
Its part of the massive holes in TWI theology.
We were once taught that anyone who "confessed Jesus as lord,, and believed God raised him from the dead" received the gift of holy spirit, eternal life, and "all hell couldnt stop you from going to heaven".
However, When the going got rough especially in the late 80's we also heard of former leaders who were supposedly "born again of the wrong seed".
As too your question i suppose that if they stood by what they originally taught that it doesnt make any difference whether we are here, reject their teaching, leave 'the household'or become criminal monsters. According to their formula we are "still going to heaven and all hell cant stop us".
Its conveniently Wierwillian that way in that there is little about personal responsibility to be concerned with because the 'price has already been paid' and you are immediately declared to be 'righteous'.
they had a whole other formula for being "in fellowship", which was not about eternal life but for stacking up eternal 'rewards' like so many bags of gold dubloons.
I have no idea what the 'eternal rewards' actually got you other than some vague and unexplained 'crown'. To my knowledge it was never sufficiently explained
aside--when you asked about cosmology i was thinking of something totally different than the way that this thread has developed. There was no real developed 'cosmology' in TWI (if I am understanding the word right) most teachings typically were focussed on the individual.
Other than occasional references to the universe being surrounded by water(!) and a few other strange things (somebody else might be able to fill this in) as far as i remember it was never really laid out
I've kind of lost track so I hope I'm posting this in the right thread.
Years ago, Earl B. did a paper (which he taught on) that involved an explanation of the firmament.
Now, I might have this wrong so jump in if I'm missing something, please.
According to this "research paper", The universe is in a big bubble like an air bubble inside a fish tank.
Beyond that is The Expanse, I think. (All water)
Now, when Lucifer(and 1/3rd of the angels in Heaven) went to war with God over rulership, the effect was so catastrophic, it tore a hole in the firmament and caused the big flood. This also was said to explain why some comets are actually giant icebergs hurling through space. (A fact confirmed by modern science)
Supposedly Lucifer and his minions fell to earth from the northern sky, which is why there are no stars in that part of the sky too!
And on and on with more blather. Lots of "Oh Wow! That's HEAVY, BRo!" moments to be sure. But then you talk to someone who actually KNOWS something about planets and extraterrrestrial bodies and the like and you find that NONE of that "teaching" lines up with real life or what we know about space. So then you have to fall back to the basic Wayfer default position "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the WORD!" and just ignore what real science tells us.
Somewhere along the line I finally tired of inventing my own reality. But, with some others, not so much...
As opposed to the many "degrees" of angelic power taught in many Christian circles today, TWI basically taught three: angels, archangels, and cherubim, which are actually found in the Bible. Actually, only Michael is called and archangel, though TWI gave Gabriel and Lucifer that status as well. Angels are messengers (which the Greek angelos means) and support staff (ministering to Jesus in the Garden, etc.). Cherubim are spirit beings quite differnt from angels. When angels appear, they look like men; cherubim hang around the throne of God to give Him praise and look like composite animals.
I have some idea of what TWI believes about Jesus. It is not quite Arian, nor is it quite Ebionite, and also not Nestorian. Sort of a combination of the three, in some form or another. That is beside the point.
But I have a different question, and I personally find cosmology to be fun to talk about. What does TWI believe about the spirit world? What is it like? I'm talking about things like angels and their hierarchies (such as the nine orders of the holy angels: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, and Angels etc), demons (devil-spirits?), the spirits of the departed, saints, heaven and hell, where people go when they die, the final resurrection, and other things.
How does their cosmology tie into their beliefs, especially the Law of Believing, which I'm told is the cornerstone of TWI doctrine?
~Phil
Hey Phil,
I don't understand your use of the word "cosmology." Even metaphysical cosmology is not necessarily about the spirit world.
Between the domains of religion and science, stands the philosophical perspective of metaphysical cosmology. This ancient field of study seeks to draw intuitive conclusions about the nature of the universe, man, god and/or their relationships based on the extension of some set of presumed facts borrowed from spiritual experience and/or observation.
But metaphysical cosmology has also been observed as the placing of man in the universe in relationship to all other entities. This is demonstrated by the observation made by Marcus Aurelius of a man's place in that relationship: " “He who does not know what the world is does not know where he is, and he who does not know for what purpose the world exists, does not know who he is, nor what the world is.” This is the purpose of the ancient metaphysical cosmology. However, Stoicism rejected Aristotle's theory of universals as being "in the things themselves," calling them "figments of the mind." Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy adopting the concept of universals as being "concepts," and therefore of the mind, and therefore controllable by free will. Thus, we get the analysis of Aurelius' that the nature of the universe is not from "intuition," but from a free-will, conceptual understanding of the nature of the universe.
Cosmology is often an important aspect of the creation myths of religions that seek to explain the existence and nature of reality. In some cases, views about the creation (cosmogony) and destruction (eschatology) of the universe play a central role in shaping a framework of religious cosmology for understanding humanity's role in the universe.
A more contemporary distinction between religion and philosophy, esoteric cosmology is distinguished from religion in its less tradition-bound construction and reliance on modern "intellectual understanding" rather than faith, and from philosophy in its emphasis on spirituality as a formative concept.
Between the domains of religion and science, stands the philosophical perspective of metaphysical cosmology. This ancient field of study seeks to draw intuitive conclusions about the nature of the universe, man, god and/or their relationships based on the extension of some set of presumed facts borrowed from spiritual experience and/or observation.
But metaphysical cosmology has also been observed as the placing of man in the universe in relationship to all other entities. This is demonstrated by the observation made by Marcus Aurelius of a man's place in that relationship: " “He who does not know what the world is does not know where he is, and he who does not know for what purpose the world exists, does not know who he is, nor what the world is.” This is the purpose of the ancient metaphysical cosmology. However, Stoicism rejected Aristotle's theory of universals as being "in the things themselves," calling them "figments of the mind." Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy adopting the concept of universals as being "concepts," and therefore of the mind, and therefore controllable by free will. Thus, we get the analysis of Aurelius' that the nature of the universe is not from "intuition," but from a free-will, conceptual understanding of the nature of the universe.
Cosmology is often an important aspect of the creation myths of religions that seek to explain the existence and nature of reality. In some cases, views about the creation (cosmogony) and destruction (eschatology) of the universe play a central role in shaping a framework of religious cosmology for understanding humanity's role in the universe.
A more contemporary distinction between religion and philosophy, esoteric cosmology is distinguished from religion in its less tradition-bound construction and reliance on modern "intellectual understanding" rather than faith, and from philosophy in its emphasis on spirituality as a formative concept.
Mainly we're talking about religious cosmology. What I mean by "cosmology" is the beliefs and perceptions of TWI regarding the spiritual world, and by extension, the spiritual realm in relation to the physical realm. Any perception we humans have of the spiritual will inevitably involve ourselves. As the spiritual world is a part of God's creation, that means that angels, demons and other spiritual entities, and the sometimes very specifically described spiritual realm are just as much a part of the universe we live in as the physical, though the spiritual is imperceptible to us. So the normal use of the word "cosmology" wouldn't work here, as it normally only speaks of the tangible aspect of the universe.
As the spiritual world is a part of God's creation, that means that angels, demons and other spiritual entities, and the sometimes very specifically described spiritual realm are just as much a part of the universe we live in as the physical, though the spiritual is imperceptible to us.
(I took the liberty of bolding that part of your post.)
You have touched on an important part of TWI theology with this reference to imperceptibility.
TWI teaches that although the spirit itself is invisible, or imperceptible, its presence can be detected via the 9 manifestations.
You see, in TWI it was taught that if you are born again with the gift of holy spirit, you have an inherent ability to present proof of such in the 5 senses world. This is what is referred to as the 9 manifestations. Speaking in tongues is one of these nine as well as tongues with interpretation and prophesy. (forth-telling, not fore-telling) These 3 are the so-called utterance manifestations and as such they are perceptible.
There are also 3 "revelation" manifestations.
These are word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits.
These are supposedly God's method of talking directly to you as an individual via the spirit inside you.
Of special interest to this discussion is the manifestation of discerning of spirits.
This is loosely defined as the ability to perceive the presence or absence of spirits, the ability to identify them and the knowledge and wisdom necessary to enact a course of action in dealing with them.
In other words, TWI taught that spirits CAN be perceived.
Phil/Brushstroke, soul was implied to be emotions and sentient/intellegience(or in animals instinct, thus having souls but no spirit, so they are not allowed in heaven nor are physically ressurrected like humans). Not clear whether soul was DNA passed on to descendants or not. Daimonian translitterated as demon in English was replaced by devil spirits/fallen angels commanded by Satan as 6 star general/admiral/commander in cheif/mob boss who wouldn't get his hands dirtied personally. Intersting that Wierwille, Geer, and Martindale were paranoid about devil spirits, accussing others of being possesed, but they proably were possesed themselves, like the proverbial kettle calling the pot black(no racial epithet intended).
In other words, TWI taught that spirits CAN be perceived.
They also had a phrase: "In depth spiritual perception and awareness" that if developed by utilizing "all 9 ( manifestations) all the time" would bring you to being "more than a conqueror"
They certainly had an entire cosmology of catchy catch phrases.
That I know :)
maybe someone can tackle the hierarachy of devil spirits which IIRC was much more developed in TWI than the angelic side. The devils (daimon and daimonion) had a whole ranking system set up from 5 star generals to privates and each had different functions
what I find interesting.. is how some capitalize on that which we do not know, whether due to gross ignorance (and I don't think that's exactly it..) or merely ignorance just being part of the agreement for this stinking existence..
it's unconscionable..
what can be known seems to be shrouded in a religious haze, superstition, and "hooey"..
(I took the liberty of bolding that part of your post.)
You have touched on an important part of TWI theology with this reference to imperceptibility.
TWI teaches that although the spirit itself is invisible, or imperceptible, its presence can be detected via the 9 manifestations.
You see, in TWI it was taught that if you are born again with the gift of holy spirit, you have an inherent ability to present proof of such in the 5 senses world. This is what is referred to as the 9 manifestations. Speaking in tongues is one of these nine as well as tongues with interpretation and prophesy. (forth-telling, not fore-telling) These 3 are the so-called utterance manifestations and as such they are perceptible.
There are also 3 "revelation" manifestations.
These are word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits.
These are supposedly God's method of talking directly to you as an individual via the spirit inside you.
Of special interest to this discussion is the manifestation of discerning of spirits.
This is loosely defined as the ability to perceive the presence or absence of spirits, the ability to identify them and the knowledge and wisdom necessary to enact a course of action in dealing with them.
In other words, TWI taught that spirits CAN be perceived.
TWI makes sensing, perceiving or communicating with that "other realm" seem so easy...
A lot of modern religions teach that that sort of communion with the divine and holiness or purity can be attained with little effort. Such thinking is nothing but delusion...
.attained with little effort. Such thinking is nothing but delusion...
It was used primarily as a means to control the naive rank and file.
"Discerning of Spirits" in practice was usually nothing more than someone complaining about something they didnt like or didnt understand then attempting to spiritualize it, and calling it a "devil spirit".
"Word of Knowledge" and "Word of Wisdom" worked the same way
It gave 'leaders' a phony air of knowing something or having a connection to God that the underlings didnt
If the seed is permanent, then what is one to make of many here at this site who have rejected TWI, the "hedge of protection" and the "one true household"? Does it mean they have lost the seed, which as you point out is contradictory to TWI teaching.
Its the same as when parents have children who may not get along with them. John is the son of Fred and Mary. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary even though John may not get along with Fred and Mary right now. Why? Because of seed. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary no matter where he is. Spiritually it is the same. Christians who are born again have the seed of Christ born within , that cannot be changed, will always be children of God no matter who they may fellowship with and what religion (or lack thereof) they may hold onto.
However, when we were marked and avoided twi-style, we were told we were no longer "under God's hedge of protection", that although we were kicked out by them, that God would no longer spit in our direction. We were also "turned over to Satan" and I'm drawing a blank at what exact words followed that, but the gist was for Satan to be able to have his way with us. So much for "once saved always saved" and we were "heaven-bound and all hell couldn't stop us" as taught in PLAF being born again meant, according to Romans 10:9 & 10.
However, when we were marked and avoided twi-style, we were told we were no longer "under God's hedge of protection", that although we were kicked out by them, that God would no longer spit in our direction. We were also "turned over to Satan" and I'm drawing a blank at what exact words followed that, but the gist was for Satan to be able to have his way with us. So much for "once saved always saved" and we were "heaven-bound and all hell couldn't stop us" as taught in PLAF being born again meant, according to Romans 10:9 & 10.
We've got two different subjects here. One, what TWI said about "once saved always saved" and the other, what does the Bible say.
In response to bowtwi, when TWI taught that some were "turned over to Satan" and "no longer under God's protection" that was supposed to refer to consequences in this life, and rewards in the next, but eternal life was not affected, because of seed (according to them). Then there were some whom they decided were probably not really saved to begin with. I'm actually not sure which of those two categories we would fall in at this point.
In response to that seed issue though, I would point out that that whole idea comes from misunderstanding I Peter 1:23 and what "the seed" really is. Jesus taught that the seed is the Word, and having it is the key to having eternal life when Christ returns. The seed is incorruptible, but it doesn't say WE are, nor is there a guarantee that the seed will remain in us and bear fruit. That was the whole point of the Parable of the Sower.
It is important to realize that there are also some conditional phrases used in the New Testament. Not salvation by works, mind you, but if we're saved by grace through faith, we must continue in that faith until the end. I wrote about this in an article on my website here. Following is an excerpt:
I Corinthians 10:1-14 tells about how the children of Israel turned to idolatry so soon after being delivered out of Egypt. Just as they could turn away, we are warned of the same possibility. The whole purpose for Paul bringing up their example is given in verses 11 & 12, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore [for this reason]let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
Chapter 15 of I Corinthians also uses conditional language in verses 1 & 2. "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved [literally "you are being saved"], if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." In one sense we are already saved, because of Christ’s completed work. But in another sense we are "being saved" - an ongoing process. It will be completed when Christ returns and we are granted immortality. But it is not unconditional; it says "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you..." The NASB words it, "...if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." There is nothing in the Bible that says that one could never reject salvation once it has been given. We must continue to hold fast to our faith.
Paul uses similar language in other passages as well. I Thessalonians 3:8 says, "For now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord," implying that he will be unhappy if they do not stand fast. II Timothy 2:12-13 says, "if we suffer ["endure," according to most other English versions], we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."
Peter also speaks of the possibility of falling. "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (II Peter 1:10). If we are exhorted to give diligence to make it sure, so that we don’t fall, then it must be possible for our calling and election to be unsure. God is sure, of course, but if we turn away from Him by our free will, He doesn’t force us. Hebrews 6:11 says, "And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end." The fact that the writer desires this shows that it is possible not to show the same diligence, and therefore not remain faithful till the end.
Keeping the faith is not salvation by works, though. It is always by grace through faith. However, we must be diligent to maintain that faith in the face of the adversities around us which are constantly tempting us to forsake our faith. The Christian life is like a race ("Let us run with patience the race that is set before us" - Hebrews 12:1; "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" - Romans 13:11). We must continue and not faint, looking unto the goal. It is not how we begin the race, but how we end it that counts.
Oldiesman - Maybe that's all it meant to you when you were marked and avoided. Or were you? (Rhetorical question, I'm not asking your personal business.) I was referring to when I, me, bowtwi, and my son, bow jr, was marked and avoided. I personally, not you, but me; I was threatened and bullied enough by someone I had been taught was my great spiritual overseer to believe that we were done for spiritually. I posted in consideration of our experience, how it went for us, back in the day when twi leaders were out of fellowship, not us.
I agree now, almost 20 years later, with the benefit of hindsight and all those years to heal, that in the big picture it could be considered simply a matter of what twi called "being out of fellowship", but at that time when I was 15 years deep into waybrain, that was the worst thing that I could have been told by someone in his position. "All that meant" was EVERYTHING to me in those days. I was completely devastated. When I was diagnosed with a tumor within that first year, I just knew it was my own fault, on account of my "missing it" somewhere, and that I was about to die and leave my precious son without his mother.
It was a whole lot more than just "all that meant..." to me and my teenage son.
Mark - Intellectually, I understand and agree with what you're saying - today - these many years later. At the time, from where I stood, I couldn't see past the mark and avoid status to even be aware that we were still born again and eventually heaven-bound. I knew that the accusations against us were false, so I doubted everything I thought I'd known up to that point. I lived in constant condemnation for years after that. I'm just now able to enjoy the Bible again and faithfully attend church. Just now, this very summer, I've broken free of so much of that condemnation and doubt. My post was from my point of view back when we were m & a'd.
This is a perfect example of how they went against their own doctrine to try to control people. It was clearly taught that once you were born again, you were "heaven bound" and nothing you did later would undo that. The worst that could ever happen was that you would lose rewards, according to their own doctrine. But when so many people started "tripping out" (as they called it) more and more leaders began to use terms like "done for spiritually." It was fear motivation to try and control us/them/you. But they sacrificed their own credibility when they did that, IMO.
Recommended Posts
waysider
Here it is in a nutshell, Brush
(Please note that the following does not necessarily reflect my current beliefs.)
When a person is physically born, they have:
(1.) body (skin and bones, etc.)
( 2.) soul (breath-life---which starts at first breath and ends at the last)
but no spirit.
God can not talk to them because He is Spirit and can only talk to spirit. :blink:
This is the same as people in the O.T.
Certain people in the O.T. had spirit placed upon them on a conditional basis.
That made it possible for God to speak to them.
After Pentecost, the new birth became available to those who satisfied the conditions in Romans 10:9 & 10.
(ie: Confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.)
This plants a seed in the person which is permanent. It is Christ in you. It is Christ's eyes behind your eyes, Christ's ears behind your ears, yada, yada. It is referred to as the "gift" of holy spirit.(note the lower case usage.)
The person is now a three-fold being. (Body, soul, AND spirit.)
It represents eternal life. Speaking in tongues is an outward manifestation of its presence. <_<
It is a direct connection to God.
Okay---What's that have to do with angels?
If you have a direct connection to God, you have no need for angels to intercede.
One exception to this would be children who have not yet reached the "age of accountability."
They are appointed a "guardian angel" until they can accept salvation on their own.
(Based on one or two verses in The Book Of Hebrews.)
Now, keep in mind that TWI taught that 1/3 of the angels were cast out of Heaven when Lucifer (the original bright and morning star) was expelled from God's presence because he sought to overthrow God's throne. They (those angels who conspired with Lucifer) now roam the earth seeking to create havoc among Earth's inhabitants.
They are what TWI referred to as Devil Spirits. So, what you call angels, TWI calls Devil Spirits.
That's probably as clear as mud but it's the way I remember it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
First of all, no spirit? So could God not talk with Adam and Eve, or did Adam and Eve lose their spirits when they went out from the Garden?
And the way you say "had spirit placed upon them on a conditional basis"...what exactly is "spirit"? Is it an energy or force that God plants into us? Wouldn't that mean it's just synonymous with grace? Or is it rather an actual, living component of the human being?
If the seed is permanent, then what is one to make of many here at this site who have rejected TWI, the "hedge of protection" and the "one true household"?
Does it mean they have lost the seed, which as you point out is contradictory to TWI teaching.
And also, the Jews and early Christians and all Christian denominations today believed/believe the spirit (the component of the human being) to be a living entity, not just a gift of "holy spirit" which sounds impersonal. This goes back to my previous question...is the spirit a living component of the human being, or is it just a force, ultimately controlled by God, that drives the body and soul/mind?
Steph and I were talking about angels once in passing conversation and she echoed what you've said here.Rather, what I would call demons, TWI calls Devil Spirits...no?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Yes, Brush
According to TWI theology, Adam was created a two-fold man with body and soul. (only)
Spirit was placed UPON him with a contingency that stipulated he would have to obey God.
When he disobeyed God, the spirit was removed from him, thus severing his direct communication with God.
(TWI called people like this "empties floating by".)
Throughout the OT, various men were bestowed the honor of having the spirit placed UPON them so long as they fulfilled the conditions.
With the new birth, holy spirit became a permanent component of the "believer"
He became body, soul AND spirit (a three-fold man).
The only condition to satisfy was Romans 10:9&10
It could not be removed because it was "seed", kinda like spiritual DNA.
This gave VPW a great deal of latitude to do whatever he wanted and still consider himself connected to God.
A spiritual "loophole" of sorts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
I believe the Jews and first century Christians understood man's spirit as the life force which made him alive, and that man was a living soul, or creature (not so much that he "had" a soul). They also considered the spirit of God to be the operational power and presence of God, which after Pentecost was also called the spirit of Christ. It isn't a completely impersonal force, like TWI taught, but it isn't a separate person, like Trinitarians think.
Yes. TWI didn't like using the word "demon" because they thought it sounded too "cute" like a little guy with a pitchfork. They called them "devil spirits" which is based on the KJV translation, but actually isn't accurate.As for angels, it was like Waysider said. TWI said angels protected those who were going to be born again, but after they got born again angels were no longer needed. This is based on a misunderstanding of one verse (which is not unusual for TWI).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
Its part of the massive holes in TWI theology.
We were once taught that anyone who "confessed Jesus as lord,, and believed God raised him from the dead" received the gift of holy spirit, eternal life, and "all hell couldnt stop you from going to heaven".
However, When the going got rough especially in the late 80's we also heard of former leaders who were supposedly "born again of the wrong seed".
As too your question i suppose that if they stood by what they originally taught that it doesnt make any difference whether we are here, reject their teaching, leave 'the household'or become criminal monsters. According to their formula we are "still going to heaven and all hell cant stop us".
Its conveniently Wierwillian that way in that there is little about personal responsibility to be concerned with because the 'price has already been paid' and you are immediately declared to be 'righteous'.
they had a whole other formula for being "in fellowship", which was not about eternal life but for stacking up eternal 'rewards' like so many bags of gold dubloons.
I have no idea what the 'eternal rewards' actually got you other than some vague and unexplained 'crown'. To my knowledge it was never sufficiently explained
aside--when you asked about cosmology i was thinking of something totally different than the way that this thread has developed. There was no real developed 'cosmology' in TWI (if I am understanding the word right) most teachings typically were focussed on the individual.
Other than occasional references to the universe being surrounded by water(!) and a few other strange things (somebody else might be able to fill this in) as far as i remember it was never really laid out
Edited by mstar1Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I've kind of lost track so I hope I'm posting this in the right thread.
Years ago, Earl B. did a paper (which he taught on) that involved an explanation of the firmament.
Now, I might have this wrong so jump in if I'm missing something, please.
According to this "research paper", The universe is in a big bubble like an air bubble inside a fish tank.
Beyond that is The Expanse, I think. (All water)
Now, when Lucifer(and 1/3rd of the angels in Heaven) went to war with God over rulership, the effect was so catastrophic, it tore a hole in the firmament and caused the big flood. This also was said to explain why some comets are actually giant icebergs hurling through space. (A fact confirmed by modern science)
Anybody remember this?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Yeah, I remember that blather as well WS.
Supposedly Lucifer and his minions fell to earth from the northern sky, which is why there are no stars in that part of the sky too!
And on and on with more blather. Lots of "Oh Wow! That's HEAVY, BRo!" moments to be sure. But then you talk to someone who actually KNOWS something about planets and extraterrrestrial bodies and the like and you find that NONE of that "teaching" lines up with real life or what we know about space. So then you have to fall back to the basic Wayfer default position "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the WORD!" and just ignore what real science tells us.
Somewhere along the line I finally tired of inventing my own reality. But, with some others, not so much...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
As opposed to the many "degrees" of angelic power taught in many Christian circles today, TWI basically taught three: angels, archangels, and cherubim, which are actually found in the Bible. Actually, only Michael is called and archangel, though TWI gave Gabriel and Lucifer that status as well. Angels are messengers (which the Greek angelos means) and support staff (ministering to Jesus in the Garden, etc.). Cherubim are spirit beings quite differnt from angels. When angels appear, they look like men; cherubim hang around the throne of God to give Him praise and look like composite animals.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Hey Phil,
I don't understand your use of the word "cosmology." Even metaphysical cosmology is not necessarily about the spirit world.
from: Wikipedia article on Cosmology
Between the domains of religion and science, stands the philosophical perspective of metaphysical cosmology. This ancient field of study seeks to draw intuitive conclusions about the nature of the universe, man, god and/or their relationships based on the extension of some set of presumed facts borrowed from spiritual experience and/or observation.
But metaphysical cosmology has also been observed as the placing of man in the universe in relationship to all other entities. This is demonstrated by the observation made by Marcus Aurelius of a man's place in that relationship: " “He who does not know what the world is does not know where he is, and he who does not know for what purpose the world exists, does not know who he is, nor what the world is.” This is the purpose of the ancient metaphysical cosmology. However, Stoicism rejected Aristotle's theory of universals as being "in the things themselves," calling them "figments of the mind." Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy adopting the concept of universals as being "concepts," and therefore of the mind, and therefore controllable by free will. Thus, we get the analysis of Aurelius' that the nature of the universe is not from "intuition," but from a free-will, conceptual understanding of the nature of the universe.
Cosmology is often an important aspect of the creation myths of religions that seek to explain the existence and nature of reality. In some cases, views about the creation (cosmogony) and destruction (eschatology) of the universe play a central role in shaping a framework of religious cosmology for understanding humanity's role in the universe.
A more contemporary distinction between religion and philosophy, esoteric cosmology is distinguished from religion in its less tradition-bound construction and reliance on modern "intellectual understanding" rather than faith, and from philosophy in its emphasis on spirituality as a formative concept.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
Mainly we're talking about religious cosmology. What I mean by "cosmology" is the beliefs and perceptions of TWI regarding the spiritual world, and by extension, the spiritual realm in relation to the physical realm. Any perception we humans have of the spiritual will inevitably involve ourselves. As the spiritual world is a part of God's creation, that means that angels, demons and other spiritual entities, and the sometimes very specifically described spiritual realm are just as much a part of the universe we live in as the physical, though the spiritual is imperceptible to us. So the normal use of the word "cosmology" wouldn't work here, as it normally only speaks of the tangible aspect of the universe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
(I took the liberty of bolding that part of your post.)
You have touched on an important part of TWI theology with this reference to imperceptibility.
TWI teaches that although the spirit itself is invisible, or imperceptible, its presence can be detected via the 9 manifestations.
You see, in TWI it was taught that if you are born again with the gift of holy spirit, you have an inherent ability to present proof of such in the 5 senses world. This is what is referred to as the 9 manifestations. Speaking in tongues is one of these nine as well as tongues with interpretation and prophesy. (forth-telling, not fore-telling) These 3 are the so-called utterance manifestations and as such they are perceptible.
There are also 3 "revelation" manifestations.
These are word of knowledge, word of wisdom and discerning of spirits.
These are supposedly God's method of talking directly to you as an individual via the spirit inside you.
Of special interest to this discussion is the manifestation of discerning of spirits.
This is loosely defined as the ability to perceive the presence or absence of spirits, the ability to identify them and the knowledge and wisdom necessary to enact a course of action in dealing with them.
In other words, TWI taught that spirits CAN be perceived.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Phil/Brushstroke, soul was implied to be emotions and sentient/intellegience(or in animals instinct, thus having souls but no spirit, so they are not allowed in heaven nor are physically ressurrected like humans). Not clear whether soul was DNA passed on to descendants or not. Daimonian translitterated as demon in English was replaced by devil spirits/fallen angels commanded by Satan as 6 star general/admiral/commander in cheif/mob boss who wouldn't get his hands dirtied personally. Intersting that Wierwille, Geer, and Martindale were paranoid about devil spirits, accussing others of being possesed, but they proably were possesed themselves, like the proverbial kettle calling the pot black(no racial epithet intended).
Edited by Thomas Loy BumgarnerLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
They also had a phrase: "In depth spiritual perception and awareness" that if developed by utilizing "all 9 ( manifestations) all the time" would bring you to being "more than a conqueror"
They certainly had an entire cosmology of catchy catch phrases.
That I know :)
maybe someone can tackle the hierarachy of devil spirits which IIRC was much more developed in TWI than the angelic side. The devils (daimon and daimonion) had a whole ranking system set up from 5 star generals to privates and each had different functions
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
what I find interesting.. is how some capitalize on that which we do not know, whether due to gross ignorance (and I don't think that's exactly it..) or merely ignorance just being part of the agreement for this stinking existence..
it's unconscionable..
what can be known seems to be shrouded in a religious haze, superstition, and "hooey"..
maybe we can't handle the truth..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
TWI makes sensing, perceiving or communicating with that "other realm" seem so easy...
A lot of modern religions teach that that sort of communion with the divine and holiness or purity can be attained with little effort. Such thinking is nothing but delusion...
Edited by BrushstrokeLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
It was used primarily as a means to control the naive rank and file.
"Discerning of Spirits" in practice was usually nothing more than someone complaining about something they didnt like or didnt understand then attempting to spiritualize it, and calling it a "devil spirit".
"Word of Knowledge" and "Word of Wisdom" worked the same way
It gave 'leaders' a phony air of knowing something or having a connection to God that the underlings didnt
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
No.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Brushstroke
So salvation cannot be lost? You're all going to be saved anyway, even though TWI said that God pretty much told you to fu¢k off?
That doesn't sound very consistent...
Edited by BrushstrokeLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Its the same as when parents have children who may not get along with them. John is the son of Fred and Mary. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary even though John may not get along with Fred and Mary right now. Why? Because of seed. John will always be the son of Fred and Mary no matter where he is. Spiritually it is the same. Christians who are born again have the seed of Christ born within , that cannot be changed, will always be children of God no matter who they may fellowship with and what religion (or lack thereof) they may hold onto.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bowtwi
However, when we were marked and avoided twi-style, we were told we were no longer "under God's hedge of protection", that although we were kicked out by them, that God would no longer spit in our direction. We were also "turned over to Satan" and I'm drawing a blank at what exact words followed that, but the gist was for Satan to be able to have his way with us. So much for "once saved always saved" and we were "heaven-bound and all hell couldn't stop us" as taught in PLAF being born again meant, according to Romans 10:9 & 10.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
All that meant was that someone was "out of fellowship" and susceptible to evil happening to them; but sonship was not affected.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
We've got two different subjects here. One, what TWI said about "once saved always saved" and the other, what does the Bible say.
In response to bowtwi, when TWI taught that some were "turned over to Satan" and "no longer under God's protection" that was supposed to refer to consequences in this life, and rewards in the next, but eternal life was not affected, because of seed (according to them). Then there were some whom they decided were probably not really saved to begin with. I'm actually not sure which of those two categories we would fall in at this point.
In response to that seed issue though, I would point out that that whole idea comes from misunderstanding I Peter 1:23 and what "the seed" really is. Jesus taught that the seed is the Word, and having it is the key to having eternal life when Christ returns. The seed is incorruptible, but it doesn't say WE are, nor is there a guarantee that the seed will remain in us and bear fruit. That was the whole point of the Parable of the Sower.
It is important to realize that there are also some conditional phrases used in the New Testament. Not salvation by works, mind you, but if we're saved by grace through faith, we must continue in that faith until the end. I wrote about this in an article on my website here. Following is an excerpt:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bowtwi
.
Edited by bowtwiLink to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
This is a perfect example of how they went against their own doctrine to try to control people. It was clearly taught that once you were born again, you were "heaven bound" and nothing you did later would undo that. The worst that could ever happen was that you would lose rewards, according to their own doctrine. But when so many people started "tripping out" (as they called it) more and more leaders began to use terms like "done for spiritually." It was fear motivation to try and control us/them/you. But they sacrificed their own credibility when they did that, IMO.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.