Did someone say something about dancing around the issue?
So...do I think Christians are intolerant? More to the point, do I think that the Christians on this board are intolerant?
My answer is "no".
Tolerance has nothing to do, in my opinion, with whether you agree with me or not.
In an environment like GSC, an intolerant poster would be one who called for the banning of all non-Christians, or who sugested that non-Christians should not post in the Doctrinal Forum. The latter has happened, time and time again, I don't recall the former ever coming up, although frequently new posters mistake this for a Christian site.
So, in my view, if you don't think that non-Christians should be participating in this site, then you're intolerant. If you're simply convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that your worldview is the only correct one than you're wrong...um...I mean not intolerant <_<
But if you think that you can post about how your interpretation of the bible is the only correct one, and how non-Christians are eternally damned, well, you're going to get an argument, and I would expect an argument from the Christians if their religion was portrayed as unequivocally wrong.
Dear ((((Oakspear))))),
I am not that famiilar with your beliefs and I am wondering what you believe happens to You body, soul and spirit after you die. Then this question comes to my mind; If you do not believe in GOD or if any Non Christian does not believe in GOD, why are they? or You? feeling attacked or persecuted or irrated by GOD's judgement according to the bible itself(not denomination)?
I am not that famiilar with your beliefs and I am wondering what you believe happens to You body, soul and spirit after you die.
I don't really know. I believe that there is survival after death in some form, but don't necessarily believe in the body, soul, spirit separation.
Then this question comes to my mind; If you do not believe in GOD or if any Non Christian does not believe in GOD, why are they? or You? feeling attacked or persecuted or irrated by GOD's judgement according to the bible itself(not denomination)?
I can't speak for others, but I am only irritated by those who feel it is necessary to inform me that their opinion is that I am eternally damned. I see no convincing (to me) evidence that any divine being has judged me, so I have no problem with any hypothetical biblical god. After all, he hasn't personally told me anything, so I have no argument with him.
Many non Christians have converted to Christianity and vice versa. A good example might be C. S Lewis. In one interview I heard that he after much research and investigation;
but not that alone in itself, but rather on a motor bike ride to a picnic with His brother stated that He knew that Christianity fit together and made sense in a way that
He could not find mere words for.! Yes well that is C. S. Lewis' in parts conversion to Christianity from atheism.
From what You said:
"I can't speak for others, but I am only irritated by those who feel it is necessary to inform me that their opinion is that I am eternally damned.
I see no convincing (to me) evidence that any divine being has judged me, so I have no problem with any hypothetical biblical god. After all, he hasn't personally told me
anything, so I have no argument with him."
What would be convincing evidence to You would convince you??? What would GOD have to say that would convince You!
I don't say this accusely per say, but doesn't not believing in GOD make you in a sense Your own god with your own doctrine/doctrines, by thinking of Him as your equal
or just another god...sheerly, because You deny Him and His doctrine?
I would like to understand more directly than the parable of the Sower and the Seed...I have no agenda or mal-intent toward You or anyone else and
I am not trying to convert You; but it is a puzzle to me that so many former Christians under TWI have gone off in so many different tangents, seeking the diverse doctrines available.
I know that TWI somewhat gave GOD a black eye in their corrupt ways and practices, but still I see TWI as TWI; and GOD as GOD; and further that most likely every former member
became born again or saved, how ever you may view it. Isn't it most likely, that You will be somewhat surprised then to meet me in the sky???
When I was a TL a few gay women came to our fellowship...they came and they liked coming.
Needless, to say LCM. was not president yet and one of them had decided convinced of the Bible and her free will choice to return to being straight once again.
The one who was trying to convince her to stay Gay...swore to me that she was absolutely not going to spend eternity with GOD; if she could not continue being gay...I am using this as an example,
because I wonder what will non Christians that are possibly born again say or do if their new doctrines don't hold up to GOD's or my Christianity beliefs
What would be convincing evidence to You would convince you??? What would GOD have to say that would convince You!
Well, something more than the nothing that I've gotten so far.
I don't say this accusely per say, but doesn't not believing in GOD make you in a sense Your own god with your own doctrine/doctrines, by thinking of Him as your equal or just another god...sheerly, because You deny Him and His doctrine?
I don't quite follow the logic in that line of thinking, although I've heard it before.
...but it is a puzzle to me that so many former Christians under TWI have gone off in so many different tangents, seeking the diverse doctrines available.
I wonder what the percentage is. I know only a handful of former wayfers, including my own family, and I'm the only one who is avowedly not a Christian, although one or two may be agnostics.
Isn't it most likely, that You will be somewhat surprised then to meet me in the sky???
It's certainly possible, I don't know that it's likely.
because I wonder what will non Christians that are possibly born again say or do if their new doctrines don't hold up to GOD's or my Christianity beliefs
And on the other hand, what will Christians say or do if some other belief turns out to be true? That reminds me of the South park episode where the "True Faith" turns out to be the Mormons, and heaven is a very interesting place
Well, something more than the nothing that I've gotten so far.
I wish that you had said something more definite; I really would like to understand
I don't quite follow the logic in that line of thinking, although I've heard it before.
Supreme is Supreme as in GOD. If we are all equal to GOD there is no supremacy; therefore we are equal to GOD and one another.
I wonder what the percentage is. I know only a handful of former wayfers, including my own family, and I'm the only one who is avowedly not a Christian, although one or two may be agnostics.
It's certainly possible, I don't know that it's likely.
All non Christian doctrines include all other doctrines are vastly more in comparison of numbers
And on the other hand, what will Christians say or do if some other belief turns out to be true? That reminds me of the South park episode where the "True Faith" turns
out to be the Mormons, and heaven is a very interesting place
I will answer this for You, I of course would be shocked and surprised,
but most probably just eternally dead as most doctrines that exclude GOD also exclude external Life...from what little I know
Rainbow girl, most pagans are polytheistic and believe in many gods. Some believe the god of the Bible does exist, though not exactly as portrayed by the Bible, because they are not sola scriptura believers. Some believe the god of the Bible exists but is not their god, they have a relationship with another.
Some develop a relationship with a certain god/dess or a pantheon of gods. Paganism is not in general a revealed religion, with writings and holy scripture. Is is often described as experiential, and as you know, if you have had an experience of some sort with your diety, then that is real to you.
Intolerance--how someone believes and what they believe is their business. But if your spiritual view of me, as a member of a different and 'wrong' religion, worthy of eternal damnation( and yes, I am posting about hellfire and brimstone beleifs, which are the most extreme) then how far can I trust you as a neighbor or friend? Wouldn't the goal be to change me? Save me? Somewhere inside, wouldn't they think that those type of beliefs are evil?--they are worthy of eternal damnation, after all. And if the beliefs are evil, what of the people who hold them?
Yes I've heard the term hate the sin, love the sinner--but I have never seen it applied where the goal was not for the sinner to be 'loved' into changing. And it applies to different religions as much as social ills like alchoholism or prostitution, as far as I have seen.
Does viewing people as 'other', eternally damned, build a healthy society? Or is the only healthy society one in which all people believe as you do?
I personally think a society is healthier if a diversity of beliefs is accepted and those with minority beliefs can be at peace in their communities. Others would not agree with me ...
As far as I can tell there have been three or four nonChristians posting on this thread--myself, Oakspear, and Abby for sure. I don't think any of us have treated the Christians on this thread poorly--we have not agreed with you, but not been rude or claimed your afterlife was at issue. Are you tolerant? Probably. Is your chosen faith membership as tolerant as you? Maybe not.
Rainbow girl, most pagans are polytheistic and believe in many gods. Some believe the god of the Bible does exist, though not exactly as portrayed by the Bible,
because they are not sola scriptura believers. Some believe the god of the Bible exists but is not their god, they have a relationship with another.
Some develop a relationship with a certain god/dess or a pantheon of gods. Paganism is not in general a revealed religion, with writings and holy scripture.
Is is often described as experiential, and as you know, if you have had an experience of some sort with your diety, then that is real to you.
((((Bramble)))), Thank You for Your explanation, I would treat You or anyone else as Christ did when he was on earth. With Love and compassion.
Read the Gospels if You have not before now...Of Course He taught the people, He healed the sick, the infirmed and the possessed; He preached the gospel and if anyone has ever
experientially known the GOD of the Bible I believe it was Him. He did the Will of GOD. He did all this by not overstepping their free, nor judging them...Remember the women caught in adultry...
He saved Her from being stoned by knowing what to do and say by experiencing GOD and His Love and mercy through His Word. He said: He who is without sin ...cast the first stone Right???
God wants us to treat all of mankind as Christ did! I endeavor to do so with all my heart...
No one know any better than I do how very cruel mankind is and how intolerant they can be...Intolerance and persecution are widespread and far reaching afflictions infesting many
and afflicting far too many more...
My son Joshua is 31. He has a rare chromosome deletion. He is sound and tactile sensitive. He cannot motor plan or process speech very well...
They said that He would never walk, talk or live...on and on.
I wouldn't trade Him or His Love for anyone else ever! I have learned so much from Him..I could go on and on about our adventures...
You know he is quite a good looking Guy and very loving and fun to be with; Yet for thirty one year we have endured constant unrelenting intolerance and persecution.
I don't focus on it; but I do make every effort to illuminate and diffuse senseless intolerant persecution and injustice...not as a judge, for I am not the judge and His thoughts and ways
are way beyond mine or my understanding...
All I have is the Written Word and Christ's example and a hand full of showy miracles to show me GOD's constant and abiding Love all throughout our whole lives.
I am the clay, not the potter. I understand my finite limitations.
I have no hidden agendas. I never seek to hurt anyone, rather I seek to avoid harming anyone, and I don't feel superior to anyone either...nor do i feel they are superior to me or anyone else.
I believe GOD's Word and I practice it to the best of my ability!
I would teach anyone who wants to know Christianity.
It's my chosen lifestyle as Yours is Yours; yet I would never persecute you or be intolerant of You for what You chose.
Intolerance--how someone believes and what they believe is their business. But if your spiritual view of me, as a member of a different and 'wrong' religion,
worthy of eternal damnation( and yes, I am posting about hellfire and brimstone beliefs, which are the most extreme) then how far can I trust you as a neighbor or friend?
Wouldn't the goal be to change me? Save me? Somewhere inside, wouldn't they think that those type of beliefs are evil?--they are worthy of eternal damnation, after all.
And if the beliefs are evil, what of the people who hold them?
Yes I've heard the term hate the sin, love the sinner--but I have never seen it applied where
the goal was not for the sinner to be 'loved' into changing. And it applies to different religions as much as social ills
like alcoholism or prostitution, as far as I have seen.
Does viewing people as 'other', eternally damned, build a healthy society? Or is the only healthy society one in which all people believe as you do?
I personally think a society is healthier if a diversity of beliefs is accepted and those with minority beliefs can be at peace in their communities. Others would not agree with me ...
As far as I can tell there have been three or four non Christians posting on this thread--myself, Oak spear, and Abby for sure. I don't think any of
us have treated the Christians on this thread poorly--we have not agreed with you, but not been rude or claimed your afterlife was at issue. Are you tolerant? Probably. Is your chosen faith membership as tolerant as you? Maybe not.
Bramble You said: "As far as I can tell there have been three or four non Christians posting on this thread--myself, Oak spear, and Abby for sure. I don't think any of
us have treated the Christians on this thread poorly--we have not agreed with you, but not been rude or claimed your afterlife was at issue. Are you tolerant? Probably.
Is your chosen faith membership as tolerant as you? Maybe not."
Ignorance and fear breed intolerance and persecution. Yet when we take the time and with our hearts read each others posts or interact on
any other avenue of life that we meet and thoughtfully and thoroughly communicate; and then maybe walk a mile in each others shoes we begin to build a little trust and
a little understanding.
Intolerance and persecution is far more encompassing than merely of our belief systems. We are all guilty of intolerances and judgmental pronouncements in all facets of life.
Out of the fears and anxieties we inflict on each other, come the walls we build; our fortresses. Bridges would be better, but will they ever be practical???
Trust is a very limited commodity that we can ill afford to liberally hand out.
I truly don't think that I am delude as a Christian , but if it were so in the end I still find GOD and Christ the most stellar examples of how to be.
I don't measure up but I won't ever stop trying to. Please understand true conviction is not synonymous intolerance. I may not believe what You believe..but I don't study Christianity to
prepare to attack You.
I don't examine too much what you believe either to debate it with You...not so much that I don't care what You think, but like You I have chosen.
If I did know you personally I would study what you believe and discuss it with You;
I wish that you had said something more definite; I really would like to understand
I didn't give anything definite because it isn't definite. I doubt most believers can be specific and detailed about what convinced them.
okay!
QUOTE
Supreme is Supreme as in GOD. If we are all equal to GOD there is no supremacy; therefore we are equal to GOD and one another.
But I didn't say we are equal to [the biblical] God, I just expressed a lack of belief in him.
Sorry Oakspear, I misunderstood that, I still am not sure what you believe or don't believe
QUOTE
All non Christian doctrines include all other doctrines are vastly more in comparison of numbers
I'm sorry, I don't understand wghat you're saying here, could you please reword it?
All non Christian doctrines including all the many other varied and diverse doctrines are vastly more numerous in comparison to the numbers of participants in Christianity IMHO.
A doctrine being a belief system! Clearer I hope???
QUOTE
but most probably just eternally dead as most doctrines that exclude GOD also exclude external Life...from what little I know
Really? can you give
I cannot give a fair or accurate account of all the different doctrines and their beliefs on Eternal Life...it was a poor estimation..most likely???
All non Christian doctrines including all the many other varied and diverse doctrines are vastly more numerous in comparison to the numbers of participants in Christianity IMHO.
A doctrine being a belief system! Clearer I hope???
I was initially referring to participants on this board IIRC. And isn't Christianity the world's largest religion?
I was initially referring to participants on this board IIRC. And isn't Christianity the world's largest religion?
Here in our country Christianity has the most members, of course. World wide I believe the largest faith is Roman Catholic, which I consider Christian, some do not. On GSC the large majority are Christian according to the surveys done around here.
Religious tolerance.org has lots of statistics on faith numbers
I was initially referring to participants on this board IIRC. And isn't Christianity the world's largest religion?
IMHO There is well over 6.5 billion people in the world.
All of them have some belief systems.
Some practice them.
Some do not; Same merely claim their title
I don't really think that in this pluralistic world that unadulterated non denominational Bible based Christianity is in the majority and perhaps never was.
Here in our country Christianity has the most members, of course. World wide I believe the largest faith is Roman Catholic, which I consider Christian, some do not. On GSC the large majority are Christian according to the surveys done around here.
Religious tolerance.org has lots of statistics on faith numbers
Hey Bramble,
I have been to their website several times--their stats are based on their descriptions of a Christian. Not on the bibles. Again--the threads lately all intertwine on this
very topic. That is what I am asking or talking about? What makes a Christian---who is defining?? That is usually when the implication of intolerance crops up.
I appreciate yours and other non-christian perspectives on this--I really am learning alot.
But, I gotta tell you Bramble--I myself have not maligned your faith. I have repeatedly said I can assume from the path you have chosen what kind of person you might be, this kind and gentle comment I have often made. I REALLY think that. Paganism doesn't SHOCK me. That is from my experiences with Wiccans. I am somewhat careful not to call your practices names.
You on the otherhand have engaged in character assassination against the God of the bible. Objecting to the idea of a loving God who, in your mind, cannot be reconciled to the existence of Hell. After several very bright and articulate posters clarified this for you(Myself excluded)you still continued to do this. BTW, not a new query? Atheists often use this argument. God has even been compared to Hitler by some.
Careful not to offend you--I did not share the EX_WITCH website with you because I KNOW proselytizing can be an insult. Only when you expressed a need to speak of your experiences here at GSC--did I think it might be a benefit to you. BECAUSE--it mentions specifically TWI in the WELCOMING letter to Pagans. It goes on to say--if you are looking for a way OUT of Paganism and want Christianity--they don't do that there--they will refer you to another ministry.
Yet, you assumed I was offering you a lifeline. NO, I was sharing something of interest. The assumption was ALL on your part. You AGAIN, thought I was trying to save you. The first time you told me you were not interested--I heard you--I told you "I get it". You have since assumed I am trying to deliver you from your faith. I am not.
The non-christians here are a minority--but your voices are clear--you are all bright and articulate people--but, I in no way think that gives you latitude to make others a target of your misunderstandings of THEIR faith. That leaves me with a perception of intolerance for Orthodox--or evangelical Christianity. You yourself have eschewed the faith--why set yourself up as judge of it. If you have a question--as you did--pose it--but when you engage in character assination of God-then there are some here who will strongly answer you.
I like that you explain your practices --when you do--I am interested in the foundations of your belief system. The bible being mine--I would like to know where yours comes from. Oral tradition is interesting to me.
As you are keenly aware--many aspects of your faith are addressed in the bible. I see no Christian hitting you over the head with this--but perhaps a dialogue would be of some beneit for us. The trouble is, it would be perceived as intolerant--so things go on without being discussed.
Such a shame. It is a doctrinal forum. I just don't want to insult or hurt you--so we don't really talk. If I forsake what the bible says--we are good--if I tell you what it says--there is war.
It is intolerance--but if you don't believe it--why don't we really talk about it?
I have been to their website several times--their stats are based on their descriptions of a Christian. Not on the bibles. Again--the threads lately all intertwine on this
very topic. That is what I am asking or talking about? What makes a Christian---who is defining?? That is usually when the implication of intolerance crops up.
I appreciate yours and other non-christian perspectives on this--I really am learning alot.
But, I gotta tell you Bramble--I myself have not maligned your faith. I have repeatedly said I can assume from the path you have chosen what kind of person you might be, this kind and gentle comment I have often made. I REALLY think that. Paganism doesn't SHOCK me. That is from my experiences with Wiccans. I am somewhat careful not to call your practices names.
You on the otherhand have engaged in character assassination against the God of the bible. Objecting to the idea of a loving God who, in your mind, cannot be reconciled to the existence of Hell. After several very bright and articulate posters clarified this for you(Myself excluded)you still continued to do this. BTW, not a new query? Atheists often use this argument. God has even been compared to Hitler by some.
Careful not to offend you--I did not share the EX_WITCH website with you because I KNOW proselytizing can be an insult. Only when you expressed a need to speak of your experiences here at GSC--did I think it might be a benefit to you. BECAUSE--it mentions specifically TWI in the WELCOMING letter to Pagans. It goes on to say--if you are looking for a way OUT of Paganism and want Christianity--they don't do that there--they will refer you to another ministry.
Yet, you assumed I was offering you a lifeline. NO, I was sharing something of interest. The assumption was ALL on your part. You AGAIN, thought I was trying to save you. The first time you told me you were not interested--I heard you--I told you "I get it". You have since assumed I am trying to deliver you from your faith. I am not.
The non-christians here are a minority--but your voices are clear--you are all bright and articulate people--but, I in no way think that gives you latitude to make others a target of your misunderstandings of THEIR faith. That leaves me with a perception of intolerance for Orthodox--or evangelical Christianity. You yourself have eschewed the faith--why set yourself up as judge of it. If you have a question--as you did--pose it--but when you engage in character assination of God-then there are some here who will strongly answer you.
I like that you explain your practices --when you do--I am interested in the foundations of your belief system. The bible being mine--I would like to know where yours comes from. Oral tradition is interesting to me.
As you are keenly aware--many aspects of your faith are addressed in the bible. I see no Christian hitting you over the head with this--but perhaps a dialogue would be of some beneit for us. The trouble is, it would be perceived as intolerant--so things go on without being discussed.
Such a shame. It is a doctrinal forum. I just don't want to insult or hurt you--so we don't really talk. If I forsake what the bible says--we are good--if I tell you what it says--there is war.
It is intolerance--but if you don't believe it--why don't we really talk about it?
This is all the response your post above will get from me.
I spent most of my adult life in TWI. I am very familiar with emotional anger driven/frustration driven rants given by authoriTAY in which I am cast as the wicked one. Been there done that.
If you want to talk about something with me, you will have to approach me in a far different manner than the above. That is a boundary I have set, so if you plan to ever communicate with me you might keep it in mind.
I do NOT consider you as any type of authority. You have an opinion, just like every other poster on this board.
And for your information, never once in all my travels in pagan boards or with pagan people have I been ranted at like you have done, twice. I find that encouraging and refreshing.
I have been to their website several times--their stats are based on their descriptions of a Christian. Not on the bibles.
I wouldn't call it their description of a Christian so much as they accept that anyone who calls themself a Christian is a Christian.
This, a quote from their section on Christianity:
Many of our visitors are distressed because they find the material on our site which describes beliefs by Christians from other denominations. They regard these beliefs to be in gross error, unacceptable, and even blasphemous and un-Christian or anti-Christian. If you are distressed by these beliefs, please do not write us angry Emails. Please take up your complaints with the people who hold those beliefs. We are religious reporters, not theologians. However, if you find that we have incorrectly explained the beliefs of a Christian group, please do inform us.
This is all the response your post above will get from me.
I spent most of my adult life in TWI. I am very familiar with emotional anger driven/frustration driven rants given by authoriTAY in which I am cast as the wicked one. Been there done that.
If you want to talk about something with me, you will have to approach me in a far different manner than the above. That is a boundary I have set, so if you plan to ever communicate with me you might keep it in mind.
I do NOT consider you as any type of authority. You have an opinion, just like every other poster on this board.
And for your information, never once in all my travels in pagan boards or with pagan people have I been ranted at like you have done, twice. I find that encouraging and refreshing.
Ranting? See--case-in point--I was NOT ranting?? I thought I was discussing. You are not the only one who was hurt by TWI--but I see if I am ever to talk to you it will be another great big tip-toe.
Fine--I don't tip-toe around issues. Why should I--I did that for years.
I assume we are adults and firm and reasoned enough now in our own convictions to have a conversation. I don't consider YOU an authority on GOD-Jehovah-Elohim. Yet, that in no way precludes you from telling us your thoughts. Often a character asassination on someone I claim a kinship with. I LOVE Him Bramble--more than I love my own life. Say what you will about Him--but I will speak-up if you malign Him. He matters more to me than anything.
I think you just called me intolerant--there it was the whole time--right below the surface--I knew it. We tip toed around THAT one for awhile. Can't IMAGINE the fire storm Bramble--if anyone actually started talking about what the BIBLE says about witchcraft.
Oakspear
You are RIGHT--excellent observation about what they call a Christian. I agree with you and DO appreciate that perspective. Made me think and it was right on the money.
I've made 10 posts on this thread. Please cut and paste the posts I made that were a character assassination on your God cuz I have NO IDEA what I did to set you off other than posts links to Religious tolerance .org.
I've made 10 posts on this thread. Please cut and paste the posts I made that were a character assassination on your God cuz I have NO IDEA what I did to set you off other than posts links to Religious tolerance .org.
That is fair enough--I was refering to the "Hell" thread. This thread was in response to that thread which was in response to the cult theology thread---All the same topic---just differing parts of a larger discussion. To me an interesting one--I see a new thread dealing with the same issue--new angle. I like that we can talk about this. I think you and other non-christians have VALID observations and I do listen and THINK about them.
Let me just say this--when you share your perspective on TWI--or some ideas concerning your new faith--I appreciate them. I can even sometimes agree with you.
But, you and I do have very different perspectives. However, we were both hurt by TWI--how we have reacted to that hurt is different--I went toward the God of the bible--you in another direction. It in no way means I cannot empathize or care about your hurt while still remaining true to Christ--in fact to remain true--I empathize greatly.
We will not always AGREE--but since I do value your posts--I hope we can at least discuss and treat each other with respect. I certainly recognize that you are a person who deserves my respect.
I just get confused by presupposition concerning my motives and words. As I have been overly careful NOT to malign your belief system. Now, TWI on the other-hand--well, I DO have at it sometimes. And Bramble it feels good to get it out! You may not accept my beliefs as true--but I cannot lie or tip toe because you may find it contrary. No catharsis in that.
I do not expect you to lie or tiptoe. I do expect to have some idea what you are going off about, and not keeping a topic to the thread at hand makes it impossible for me to keep up, my memory is not that good. Please cutrand paste my character assanations into a post on the thread where I did them, then I can respond.
Plus, I am not going to post using your definition of Christianity as my standard.
if i may, i would like to offer some comments and suggestions about this question in your byline: "Can something be true for you and not for me?"
maybe they might even help the conversation ...who knows
overall, i have found it helpful to clarify the different values of 'truth' and 'goodness' and 'beauty'
...not as different places or realities, but as different perspectives of the same occasion ...such as life in general
Beauty, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our subjective perspective ("i", "me," "my" to "all of i," "all of me" and "all of my"). This is where meaning is found (or not).
Goodness, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our inter-subjective perspective ("we," "ours," "us" to "all of we," "all of ours" and "all of us"). This is where meaning is shared and related (or not).
Truthfulness, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our objective and interobjective perspectives ("it," "this," "he" to "all of it," "all of this," and "all of him"). Where reality is checked.
so i would have to answer both "yes" and "no" to the question: "Can something be true for you and not for me?"
"yes," because we may find our favorite stories about the truth to be more good or beautiful than others, both of which are subjective limits on how much truth is acceptible as true to me (or "my us").
"no," because ultimate truths are of the ultimate truth in spite of our limited perspectives of IT ALL, and language does not replace that which the language is often feebly pointing at.
...
as all this relates to any religious or theological "in/tolerance" ...
it seems to have to do with the true (actual/real) capacities, bounds and limits of our subjective perspectives (the good and/or beautiful)
and what we can (or cannot) personally (or collectively) tolerate being there
if i may, i would like to offer some comments and suggestions about this question in your byline: "Can something be true for you and not for me?"
maybe they might even help the conversation ...who knows
overall, i have found it helpful to clarify the different values of 'truth' and 'goodness' and 'beauty'
...not as different places or realities, but as different perspectives of the same occasion ...such as life in general
Beauty, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our subjective perspective ("i", "me," "my" to "all of i," "all of me" and "all of my"). This is where meaning is found (or not).
Goodness, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our inter-subjective perspective ("we," "ours," "us" to "all of we," "all of ours" and "all of us"). This is where meaning is shared and related (or not).
Truthfulness, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our objective and interobjective perspectives ("it," "this," "he" to "all of it," "all of this," and "all of him"). Where reality is checked.
so i would have to answer both "yes" and "no" to the question: "Can something be true for you and not for me?"
"yes," because we may find our favorite stories about the truth to be more good or beautiful than others, both of which are subjective limits on how much truth is acceptible as true to me (or "my us").
"no," because ultimate truths are of the ultimate truth in spite of our limited perspectives of IT ALL, and language does not replace that which the language is often feebly pointing at.
...
as all this relates to any religious or theological "in/tolerance" ...
it seems to have to do with the true (actual/real) capacities, bounds and limits of our subjective perspectives (the good and/or beautiful)
and what we can (or cannot) personally (or collectively) tolerate being there
thanks for asking
hope it make some sort of sense to someone
maybe even help
That is so true! I was speaking of an objective truth. Which I believe can be known in the person of Jesus Christ. :) you hit the nail on the head. Thanks!
None of us know all truth--but we can know the one who is all truth!
I do not expect you to lie or tiptoe. I do expect to have some idea what you are going off about, and not keeping a topic to the thread at hand makes it impossible for me to keep up, my memory is not that good. Please cutrand paste my character assanations into a post on the thread where I did them, then I can respond.
Plus, I am not going to post using your definition of Christianity as my standard.
I don't expect you to use my standard Bramble. I am sorry if you thought I was hopping all over you--not my intent--I was trying to converse, but probably did it badly. I need to be more careful in my choice of words. --hope that helps. :)
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RainbowsGirl
Dear ((((Oakspear))))),
I am not that famiilar with your beliefs and I am wondering what you believe happens to You body, soul and spirit after you die. Then this question comes to my mind; If you do not believe in GOD or if any Non Christian does not believe in GOD, why are they? or You? feeling attacked or persecuted or irrated by GOD's judgement according to the bible itself(not denomination)?
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Oakspear
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RainbowsGirl
Dear Oakspear,
Many non Christians have converted to Christianity and vice versa. A good example might be C. S Lewis. In one interview I heard that he after much research and investigation;
but not that alone in itself, but rather on a motor bike ride to a picnic with His brother stated that He knew that Christianity fit together and made sense in a way that
He could not find mere words for.! Yes well that is C. S. Lewis' in parts conversion to Christianity from atheism.
From what You said:
"I can't speak for others, but I am only irritated by those who feel it is necessary to inform me that their opinion is that I am eternally damned.
I see no convincing (to me) evidence that any divine being has judged me, so I have no problem with any hypothetical biblical god. After all, he hasn't personally told me
anything, so I have no argument with him."
What would be convincing evidence to You would convince you??? What would GOD have to say that would convince You!
I don't say this accusely per say, but doesn't not believing in GOD make you in a sense Your own god with your own doctrine/doctrines, by thinking of Him as your equal
or just another god...sheerly, because You deny Him and His doctrine?
I would like to understand more directly than the parable of the Sower and the Seed...I have no agenda or mal-intent toward You or anyone else and
I am not trying to convert You; but it is a puzzle to me that so many former Christians under TWI have gone off in so many different tangents, seeking the diverse doctrines available.
I know that TWI somewhat gave GOD a black eye in their corrupt ways and practices, but still I see TWI as TWI; and GOD as GOD; and further that most likely every former member
became born again or saved, how ever you may view it. Isn't it most likely, that You will be somewhat surprised then to meet me in the sky???
When I was a TL a few gay women came to our fellowship...they came and they liked coming.
Needless, to say LCM. was not president yet and one of them had decided convinced of the Bible and her free will choice to return to being straight once again.
The one who was trying to convince her to stay Gay...swore to me that she was absolutely not going to spend eternity with GOD; if she could not continue being gay...I am using this as an example,
because I wonder what will non Christians that are possibly born again say or do if their new doctrines don't hold up to GOD's or my Christianity beliefs
What are Your thoughts??? Any One else as well???
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Oakspear
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Bramble
Rainbow girl, most pagans are polytheistic and believe in many gods. Some believe the god of the Bible does exist, though not exactly as portrayed by the Bible, because they are not sola scriptura believers. Some believe the god of the Bible exists but is not their god, they have a relationship with another.
Some develop a relationship with a certain god/dess or a pantheon of gods. Paganism is not in general a revealed religion, with writings and holy scripture. Is is often described as experiential, and as you know, if you have had an experience of some sort with your diety, then that is real to you.
Intolerance--how someone believes and what they believe is their business. But if your spiritual view of me, as a member of a different and 'wrong' religion, worthy of eternal damnation( and yes, I am posting about hellfire and brimstone beleifs, which are the most extreme) then how far can I trust you as a neighbor or friend? Wouldn't the goal be to change me? Save me? Somewhere inside, wouldn't they think that those type of beliefs are evil?--they are worthy of eternal damnation, after all. And if the beliefs are evil, what of the people who hold them?
Yes I've heard the term hate the sin, love the sinner--but I have never seen it applied where the goal was not for the sinner to be 'loved' into changing. And it applies to different religions as much as social ills like alchoholism or prostitution, as far as I have seen.
Does viewing people as 'other', eternally damned, build a healthy society? Or is the only healthy society one in which all people believe as you do?
I personally think a society is healthier if a diversity of beliefs is accepted and those with minority beliefs can be at peace in their communities. Others would not agree with me ...
As far as I can tell there have been three or four nonChristians posting on this thread--myself, Oakspear, and Abby for sure. I don't think any of us have treated the Christians on this thread poorly--we have not agreed with you, but not been rude or claimed your afterlife was at issue. Are you tolerant? Probably. Is your chosen faith membership as tolerant as you? Maybe not.
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Oakspear
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RainbowsGirl
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RainbowsGirl
Bramble You said: "As far as I can tell there have been three or four non Christians posting on this thread--myself, Oak spear, and Abby for sure. I don't think any of
us have treated the Christians on this thread poorly--we have not agreed with you, but not been rude or claimed your afterlife was at issue. Are you tolerant? Probably.
Is your chosen faith membership as tolerant as you? Maybe not."
Ignorance and fear breed intolerance and persecution. Yet when we take the time and with our hearts read each others posts or interact on
any other avenue of life that we meet and thoughtfully and thoroughly communicate; and then maybe walk a mile in each others shoes we begin to build a little trust and
a little understanding.
Intolerance and persecution is far more encompassing than merely of our belief systems. We are all guilty of intolerances and judgmental pronouncements in all facets of life.
Out of the fears and anxieties we inflict on each other, come the walls we build; our fortresses. Bridges would be better, but will they ever be practical???
Trust is a very limited commodity that we can ill afford to liberally hand out.
I truly don't think that I am delude as a Christian , but if it were so in the end I still find GOD and Christ the most stellar examples of how to be.
I don't measure up but I won't ever stop trying to. Please understand true conviction is not synonymous intolerance. I may not believe what You believe..but I don't study Christianity to
prepare to attack You.
I don't examine too much what you believe either to debate it with You...not so much that I don't care what You think, but like You I have chosen.
If I did know you personally I would study what you believe and discuss it with You;
if we were able to fairly hear each other out
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RainbowsGirl
QUOTE
I wish that you had said something more definite; I really would like to understand
I didn't give anything definite because it isn't definite. I doubt most believers can be specific and detailed about what convinced them.
okay!
QUOTE
Supreme is Supreme as in GOD. If we are all equal to GOD there is no supremacy; therefore we are equal to GOD and one another.
But I didn't say we are equal to [the biblical] God, I just expressed a lack of belief in him.
Sorry Oakspear, I misunderstood that, I still am not sure what you believe or don't believe
QUOTE
All non Christian doctrines include all other doctrines are vastly more in comparison of numbers
I'm sorry, I don't understand wghat you're saying here, could you please reword it?
All non Christian doctrines including all the many other varied and diverse doctrines are vastly more numerous in comparison to the numbers of participants in Christianity IMHO.
A doctrine being a belief system! Clearer I hope???
QUOTE
but most probably just eternally dead as most doctrines that exclude GOD also exclude external Life...from what little I know
Really? can you give
I cannot give a fair or accurate account of all the different doctrines and their beliefs on Eternal Life...it was a poor estimation..most likely???
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Oakspear
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Bramble
Here in our country Christianity has the most members, of course. World wide I believe the largest faith is Roman Catholic, which I consider Christian, some do not. On GSC the large majority are Christian according to the surveys done around here.
Religious tolerance.org has lots of statistics on faith numbers
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RainbowsGirl
IMHO There is well over 6.5 billion people in the world.
All of them have some belief systems.
Some practice them.
Some do not; Same merely claim their title
I don't really think that in this pluralistic world that unadulterated non denominational Bible based Christianity is in the majority and perhaps never was.
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Bramble
No subset of any religion is in a majority.
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geisha779
Hey Bramble,
I have been to their website several times--their stats are based on their descriptions of a Christian. Not on the bibles. Again--the threads lately all intertwine on this
very topic. That is what I am asking or talking about? What makes a Christian---who is defining?? That is usually when the implication of intolerance crops up.
I appreciate yours and other non-christian perspectives on this--I really am learning alot.
But, I gotta tell you Bramble--I myself have not maligned your faith. I have repeatedly said I can assume from the path you have chosen what kind of person you might be, this kind and gentle comment I have often made. I REALLY think that. Paganism doesn't SHOCK me. That is from my experiences with Wiccans. I am somewhat careful not to call your practices names.
You on the otherhand have engaged in character assassination against the God of the bible. Objecting to the idea of a loving God who, in your mind, cannot be reconciled to the existence of Hell. After several very bright and articulate posters clarified this for you(Myself excluded)you still continued to do this. BTW, not a new query? Atheists often use this argument. God has even been compared to Hitler by some.
Careful not to offend you--I did not share the EX_WITCH website with you because I KNOW proselytizing can be an insult. Only when you expressed a need to speak of your experiences here at GSC--did I think it might be a benefit to you. BECAUSE--it mentions specifically TWI in the WELCOMING letter to Pagans. It goes on to say--if you are looking for a way OUT of Paganism and want Christianity--they don't do that there--they will refer you to another ministry.
Yet, you assumed I was offering you a lifeline. NO, I was sharing something of interest. The assumption was ALL on your part. You AGAIN, thought I was trying to save you. The first time you told me you were not interested--I heard you--I told you "I get it". You have since assumed I am trying to deliver you from your faith. I am not.
The non-christians here are a minority--but your voices are clear--you are all bright and articulate people--but, I in no way think that gives you latitude to make others a target of your misunderstandings of THEIR faith. That leaves me with a perception of intolerance for Orthodox--or evangelical Christianity. You yourself have eschewed the faith--why set yourself up as judge of it. If you have a question--as you did--pose it--but when you engage in character assination of God-then there are some here who will strongly answer you.
I like that you explain your practices --when you do--I am interested in the foundations of your belief system. The bible being mine--I would like to know where yours comes from. Oral tradition is interesting to me.
As you are keenly aware--many aspects of your faith are addressed in the bible. I see no Christian hitting you over the head with this--but perhaps a dialogue would be of some beneit for us. The trouble is, it would be perceived as intolerant--so things go on without being discussed.
Such a shame. It is a doctrinal forum. I just don't want to insult or hurt you--so we don't really talk. If I forsake what the bible says--we are good--if I tell you what it says--there is war.
It is intolerance--but if you don't believe it--why don't we really talk about it?
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Bramble
This is all the response your post above will get from me.
I spent most of my adult life in TWI. I am very familiar with emotional anger driven/frustration driven rants given by authoriTAY in which I am cast as the wicked one. Been there done that.
If you want to talk about something with me, you will have to approach me in a far different manner than the above. That is a boundary I have set, so if you plan to ever communicate with me you might keep it in mind.
I do NOT consider you as any type of authority. You have an opinion, just like every other poster on this board.
And for your information, never once in all my travels in pagan boards or with pagan people have I been ranted at like you have done, twice. I find that encouraging and refreshing.
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Oakspear
This, a quote from their section on Christianity:
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geisha779
Ranting? See--case-in point--I was NOT ranting?? I thought I was discussing. You are not the only one who was hurt by TWI--but I see if I am ever to talk to you it will be another great big tip-toe.
Fine--I don't tip-toe around issues. Why should I--I did that for years.
I assume we are adults and firm and reasoned enough now in our own convictions to have a conversation. I don't consider YOU an authority on GOD-Jehovah-Elohim. Yet, that in no way precludes you from telling us your thoughts. Often a character asassination on someone I claim a kinship with. I LOVE Him Bramble--more than I love my own life. Say what you will about Him--but I will speak-up if you malign Him. He matters more to me than anything.
I think you just called me intolerant--there it was the whole time--right below the surface--I knew it. We tip toed around THAT one for awhile. Can't IMAGINE the fire storm Bramble--if anyone actually started talking about what the BIBLE says about witchcraft.
Oakspear
You are RIGHT--excellent observation about what they call a Christian. I agree with you and DO appreciate that perspective. Made me think and it was right on the money.
Geisha
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Bramble
I've made 10 posts on this thread. Please cut and paste the posts I made that were a character assassination on your God cuz I have NO IDEA what I did to set you off other than posts links to Religious tolerance .org.
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geisha779
That is fair enough--I was refering to the "Hell" thread. This thread was in response to that thread which was in response to the cult theology thread---All the same topic---just differing parts of a larger discussion. To me an interesting one--I see a new thread dealing with the same issue--new angle. I like that we can talk about this. I think you and other non-christians have VALID observations and I do listen and THINK about them.
Let me just say this--when you share your perspective on TWI--or some ideas concerning your new faith--I appreciate them. I can even sometimes agree with you.
But, you and I do have very different perspectives. However, we were both hurt by TWI--how we have reacted to that hurt is different--I went toward the God of the bible--you in another direction. It in no way means I cannot empathize or care about your hurt while still remaining true to Christ--in fact to remain true--I empathize greatly.
We will not always AGREE--but since I do value your posts--I hope we can at least discuss and treat each other with respect. I certainly recognize that you are a person who deserves my respect.
I just get confused by presupposition concerning my motives and words. As I have been overly careful NOT to malign your belief system. Now, TWI on the other-hand--well, I DO have at it sometimes. And Bramble it feels good to get it out! You may not accept my beliefs as true--but I cannot lie or tip toe because you may find it contrary. No catharsis in that.
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Bramble
I do not expect you to lie or tiptoe. I do expect to have some idea what you are going off about, and not keeping a topic to the thread at hand makes it impossible for me to keep up, my memory is not that good. Please cutrand paste my character assanations into a post on the thread where I did them, then I can respond.
Plus, I am not going to post using your definition of Christianity as my standard.
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Bramble
Still waiting to see posts where I character assanated your God.
I add--plenty of other posters have disagreed with you on different threads--why aren't you hopping on them?
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sirguessalot
hi geisha779 and all
if i may, i would like to offer some comments and suggestions about this question in your byline: "Can something be true for you and not for me?"
maybe they might even help the conversation ...who knows
overall, i have found it helpful to clarify the different values of 'truth' and 'goodness' and 'beauty'
...not as different places or realities, but as different perspectives of the same occasion ...such as life in general
Beauty, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our subjective perspective ("i", "me," "my" to "all of i," "all of me" and "all of my"). This is where meaning is found (or not).
Goodness, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our inter-subjective perspective ("we," "ours," "us" to "all of we," "all of ours" and "all of us"). This is where meaning is shared and related (or not).
Truthfulness, as revealed by the depths and spans and contours of our objective and interobjective perspectives ("it," "this," "he" to "all of it," "all of this," and "all of him"). Where reality is checked.
so i would have to answer both "yes" and "no" to the question: "Can something be true for you and not for me?"
"yes," because we may find our favorite stories about the truth to be more good or beautiful than others, both of which are subjective limits on how much truth is acceptible as true to me (or "my us").
"no," because ultimate truths are of the ultimate truth in spite of our limited perspectives of IT ALL, and language does not replace that which the language is often feebly pointing at.
...
as all this relates to any religious or theological "in/tolerance" ...
it seems to have to do with the true (actual/real) capacities, bounds and limits of our subjective perspectives (the good and/or beautiful)
and what we can (or cannot) personally (or collectively) tolerate being there
thanks for asking
hope it make some sort of sense to someone
maybe even help
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geisha779
That is so true! I was speaking of an objective truth. Which I believe can be known in the person of Jesus Christ. :) you hit the nail on the head. Thanks!
None of us know all truth--but we can know the one who is all truth!
I don't expect you to use my standard Bramble. I am sorry if you thought I was hopping all over you--not my intent--I was trying to converse, but probably did it badly. I need to be more careful in my choice of words. --hope that helps. :)
Geisha
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