Seems to me I hear more and more these days that Christians are intolerant. Am I not doing a good job expressing my Christian Faith?--It is hardly an intolerant
belief system. The bible exhorts us to life peaceably with all men--as much as we are able. It tells me to love my neighbor as myself. It tells me Jesus died for all.
The fact of the matter is that if God exists and has spoken to us via the scripture, then He has spoken what He has spoken. The truth is the truth and was the truth long before I came around and darkened the earth with my shadow.
People who label Christianity as "intolerant" are simply demonstrating their own lack of meekness and their intolerance for what God has to say about life.
Christ said that people don't come to the light because they know their wickedness will be exposed. You can see why a homosexual might have a tough time coming to Christ because he knows God disapproves of his behavior and will be asked to change. He loving the sin, doesn't want to change and violently protects his idol by hurling insults at man and God.
The fact of the matter is that if God exists and has spoken to us via the scripture, then He has spoken what He has spoken. The truth is the truth and was the truth long before I came around and darkened the earth with my shadow.
People who label Christianity as "intolerant" are simply demonstrating their own lack of meekness and their intolerance for what God has to say about life.
Christ said that people don't come to the light because they know their wickedness will be exposed. You can see why a homosexual might have a tough time coming to Christ because he knows God disapproves of his behavior and will be asked to change. He loving the sin, doesn't want to change and violently protects his idol by hurling insults at man and God.
All will be revealed at the white throne.
Free
Hi Free,
That is a great example of a group that can call Christians intolerant. I have to wonder though if we don't do a bit to aid that perception. I spent the other day working with a lesbian couple I know--they are nice ladies--very ethical. They said that they really like hubby and I--and were shocked to learn we were Christians--they can't stand Christians because they think Christians are intolerant. She just called me a few minutes ago!!
We had a nice talk--and when asked if I thought homosexuality was wrong-- I said I would love to have that discussion with them sometime when we could sit and give it the attention it deserved. I didn't want to pronounce their lifestyle abberant and quote the bible at them. I didn't want to ruin a relationship that seems mutually respectful with a two minute chat. I would rather let them know me as a person who respects them as people. Who does a good job for them and is friendly and kind. If they are really interested in what I think--I would like to sit down with love and reason from the scriptures with them.
It is a hard thing to give up sin--we do it for the love of Christ. It is a struggle. We must know His love to love Him back and give things up for Him. It is a process and requires real healing. Do we show them the love of God? I hope we do.
Good point --- the bible often convicts us of that we don't want to deal with. My hope is for those perishing to come to the throne now--We can change that perception of intolerance by living our faith. :) It is a fun ride!!
There are over 30,000 different Christian doctrines. Some are more tolerant than others. In my area the PCUSA, the Episcopols and the MEthodist church are very accepting. My kids have been involved in the Methodist church youth group off and on for years.
On the other hand, we've removed our kids from two youth groups that either treated the non member parents like scum( and yes, we contributed financially to their youth group) or our kids came home with 'you're not a Christian' type stuff, which neither hubby or I was comfortable with especially having been divided from our families in our TWI tango..
Who gets to choose which truth is truth for all mankind? Isn't the world a healthier place if people can make that choice individually? Because, they are going to, anyway. Even if a religion has the force of the law behind it, some will choose to believe differently.
I think one true truth for all of mankind is a fanatsy--it has never existed and never will. I don't think the human spiritual capacity is such that we can all see and accept the same thing as truth, and to expect it leads to strife in the end.
Is religious diversity a healthy thing--or should we all believe the same truth? Again, who gets to choose?
Are different beliefs a danger to you? Some no doubt are, which is we need a rule of law or zelots of one stripe or another will attempt to take away our freedom.
It was just a year ago that fallen pagan soldiers were able to have their religious symbol enscribed on ther tombstones in military cemetaries. And they had to get legal for it to happen.
Our open midsummer festival has to have a sherrif presence, guess why? And yet the pagans in my area have never made a habitof harassing those certain churches on Sunday morning.. So don't tell me all Christians are tolerant and anyone who calls them intollerant is in error.
In my personal life I avoid those who want to change me for my own good. I think it is arrogant and condescending, even though i know that often the person is sincere in wanting to help me. They are not able to see that it is arrogant and condescending because of their doctrinal thought processes. People who are close to me in my life care for me as I am.
It's a very broad question, Geisha, which makes it very very hard to answer. Christianity itself is hard to define - so many denominations, so many doctrines, so many differences among them all! Then there is the concept of tolerance, or intolerance. Intolerant of what?
Some Christians are intolerant of anyone who believes differently than they do - as evidenced by TWI. Some Christians are intolerant of those who don't believe in the trinity or those who do. Some of homosexuals. The list could be endless.
So, some Jews are intolerant of non-Jews. Some are intolerant of the orthodox and some are intolerant of the reformed. I'll bet there are likewise some pagans who are intolerant of one group or another. That is just people, unfortunately. Some of us are intolerant of the intolerant too.
So maybe, just maybe, what concerns you more is "do people perceive you as being intolerant?" I don't know. I'm guessing based on what I have read down here, that perhaps that is at least a part of your question.
So, I'll tell you what I think. I don't believe you are intolerant. I think you are very very convicted/convinced of your beliefs. I also think you care deeply about people. Because of those two things, I believe you want to see "all people" come to the knowledge of your faith and be saved. It is a noble endeavor, given your convictions. However, in THIS FORMAT, it makes it easy for people to misunderstand where you are coming from and perceive you as being intolerant, even though you aren't.
One thing that helps with that is to use "I" statements. Instead of simply saying "this is what the Bible says, this is the way it is" if you said "this is what I believe the Bible says and therefore this is the way I believe it is" it leaves a bit of a crack in the door that makes conversation easier.
You are, in essence, saying the same thing - but you are saying it in a way that invites a more open back and forth conversation. It is a small thing, but because we do not have facial expressions and tone of voice, it really does make a difference.
It makes some of us quite prickly if we feel we are being preached at, or if we feel someone is trying to "witness" to us. First and foremost, many of us just want to be accepted for who we are now. Now, I am Jewish. I cannot say what I will call myself a year or two from now. Something could happen that could change my point of view. But for now, I want to be accepted for who I am, in exactly this place and time in my journey.
In terms of the broader question, is Christianity getting more flack today than it did in previous generations? Probably. It is hard to gauge just from one website called Greasespot though, because so many of us do bring baggage from our experience with TWI.
Our society as a whole, is expanding. We have a larger and larger population of diverse beliefs about God, more athiests and agnostics as well. Where as a society homosexuality was once condemned, now homosexual people are coming to be more accepted, even among those who may condemn the act itself. (for example). So, I think as a society we may also be becoming more and more intolerant of intolerance. Because in our country, Christianity has been the norm for so long, the mainstream, Christianity is probably getting hit the hardest. But Christianity is hardly the only religion or group that has factions of intolerant people in it or aspects of its doctrine that could be viewed as intolerant.
I once refused to study Judaism, because I thought it was so completely intolerant. My understanding of it was that it was all based on DNA - genetics. As if a person has any say at all regarding who they are born to, what genes they get. Then, when I finally begain studying it, I realized my intial perceptions were wrong, that it isn't simply about genetics and that it is an incredibly tolerant religion (though of course, there are intolerant sects and individuals within it).
People who label Christianity as "intolerant" are simply demonstrating their own lack of meekness and their intolerance for what God has to say about life.
Christ said that people don't come to the light because they know their wickedness will be exposed. You can see why a homosexual might have a tough time coming to Christ because he knows God disapproves of his behavior and will be asked to change. He loving the sin, doesn't want to change and violently protects his idol by hurling insults at man and God.
This totally smacks of the egotism, judgementalism and intolerance that you ask about Geisha. It's reminiscent of my attitude during my TWI days.
Are you, Geisha, tolerant? I tend to think so based on what I've seen here. Like Abi, I see someone who really cares about people and who is considerate of her audience while not wavering on her personal belief system.
I think that "to each his own" is more of my philosophy. If whatever you're doing works FOR YOU - Great! I'm doing what works FOR ME and it may not be the same thing that works for anyone else. I enjoy sharing ideas, but I abhor being told that I'm lacking meekness and full of sin because I don't subscribe to the same belief system.
I, frankly, do see it more in so-called Christians than I do with any other group, but that's just what I'm exposed to and does not make it universal.
My SWAG (since I haven't studied most religions) is that most religions are tolerant - on paper, (the Bible, Koran/Quoran, or various other religious authoratative document.) However, these documents are all subject to interpretation and if the people doing the interpreting are intolerant - you will find intolerance.
People as a whole like to believe they are right - the more "right", the better. How right they really are will be born out in time. For that reason if none other, the arguments should be silenced. By the time I find out if I'm really right - there will nothing I can do about it. I won't even be around for the "I told you so's."
Ooops! How'd I get lost in here? I better head back up to the kitchen.
I LOVE IT!! Thank-you because that is one of the things I am talking about!! Pluralism--all inclusiveness--just because you say I am not a Christian--you don't define me kinda thinking!!!
Aberrant forms of Christianity--or new religion all have something in common--similar to TWI!!! They seeks to redefine Christianity--one historically--and two from the outside--by redefining or changing the basic tenants of Christianity and are supported by those advocating TOLERANCE!! :)
I am so glad you chose those sites--because much of my discussions with others here--are based on these very ideas. The idea that you can be a Christian--remaking traditional biblical understanding. Isn't the basic doctrines of the bible what make us Christian--The Jesus of the bible??
Bramble, I honestly think this is what frustrates people in TWI and those who still hold to the doctrines they learned here. I would love to calmly and honestly have this discussion because I am genuinley interested in this. Not out of zeal, but because I actually understand both sides.
It comes down to truth again. A REALITY that has a corresponding OBJECT. The details about that reality---cannot be opposite and both be true. Therefore it comes down to a CHOICE on what you believe to be the reality. Conditioning--must be considered--a certain trained perspective has to honestly be evaluated. FEAR MOTIVATION on both sides has to be dealt with before we come to an understanding. If we decide our idea is the right one and it puts us at odds with the ORTHODOX(Which is NOT a BAD word--it means rules and beliefs which are approved)then we are OUTSIDE the norm. The Church defines itself by its doctrines Bramble--that is a GOOD thing. It defines itself by biblical truth.
If we break away from these basic doctrines we are then defined as ABERRANT(straying from the right or normal way ). No longer Christian in the accepted and approved or Orthodox way. There has to be a right way. Truth requires it by its very nature.
However, if one decides this is not the case and reacts out of frustration at percieved intolerance--a deeper look and understanding of the why's are a most important factor for the one claiming "New Truth" or "Special Knowledge" or a widely differing understanding of basic biblical doctrines. Truth has an object to which its reality corresponds.
Tolerance does not mean accepting all truths as reality--that is not what it is--it is not even a LOGICAL possibility. Therefore, the one advocating a "NEW' truth--and calling it Christianity--may actually be in rebellion(NOT ALWAYS A BAD WORD opposition to one in authority or dominance) to the ORTHODOX.
Denominations are often born from rebellion or renewal. That is one of the many reasons denominations are not always BAD things--if they hold to the basic tenants of Christianity. The reform movements of the 16th century were to restore teachings the church had eclipsed by then--justification-salvation by faith-the sovereignty of God. Some presbyterians caved to the pressures of liberalism and new groups were formed to preserve the traditions. Often a denomination is formed to combat some aberrant form of the same denomination. Baptists came along in the reformed tradition advocating these principles--justification by faith be applied to the church. Pentecostals and charismatics formed unions based on their views of spiritual gifts.
They are also formed out of churches seeking fellowship. The important thing to look at--the standard by which we evaluate a denomination--is its teachings and practices and its adherence to scripture--in its Orthodox understanding.
See, it is alot bigger than everyone is right. That is an impossibility. As a seeker of Christ, you must choose the aberrant or the Orthodox--which seems to be a word that grates on some. That should be examined as well. Why would such a simple word grate? Could it be percieved intolerance?
I submit the onus is actually on the one with "New Light" or opposing theology. I know there are biblical warnings on these very issues. Where or from whom did we learn our theology(NOT a bad word The study of God and of God's relation to the world) must be deeply cosidered.
If we did not understand similar issues before we were taught by TWI--as many claim--could it STILL be our own understanding--seeking a system to validate our rebellion to the Orthodox?
New Religious movements like TWI--all share common characteristics--one of those being EXCLUSIONARY and ELITIST in theology.
You see, I can respect your faith or Abigails so much easier than I can an aberrant form of MY FAITH. BEcause, I see it as a breaking away from the right theology to embrace and elitist and exclusionary form with "New Authority" "Justification and defense of false teaching" "Untrained lay people as leaders" "Central MOGS" "An understanding of being the 'True" body" "Predatory recruitment" "Sanctioning of heretical figures" "Legalistic demands of members while leaders living sin filled lives" .
These groups who claim "Special Revelation" also usually have a highly autocratic system which controls every aspect of its members lives. They usurp Christian vocabulary and change the meaning of words or phrases. They emphasize secondary issues and minor points of theology. They emphasize EXPERIENCE over doctrine. They dabble in the occult.
I can see tolerating anothers beliefs--but if they claim Christianity and by their very nature are destructive--I must as a Christian--speak out.
Christianity is actually ONE FAITH --and CHRIST CENTERED. So, it has to be one truth about Christ--hope that makes sense??? Caps are for emphasis NOT shouting! :)
This totally smacks of the egotism, judgementalism and intolerance that you ask about Geisha. It's reminiscent of my attitude during my TWI days.
Are you, Geisha, tolerant? I tend to think so based on what I've seen here. Like Abi, I see someone who really cares about people and who is considerate of her audience while not wavering on her personal belief system.
I think that "to each his own" is more of my philosophy. If whatever you're doing works FOR YOU - Great! I'm doing what works FOR ME and it may not be the same thing that works for anyone else. I enjoy sharing ideas, but I abhor being told that I'm lacking meekness and full of sin because I don't subscribe to the same belief system.
I, frankly, do see it more in so-called Christians than I do with any other group, but that's just what I'm exposed to and does not make it universal.
I see alot of "truth" and good old common sense in what you say--Christians should be more than tolerant IMHO--they should be out there in the community serving and showing God's love--NOT condemning--but coming out of TWI I have really had to look at this stuff. I seem to come across as intolerant sometimes--but I hear that about Christians as a whole--more and more. It has made me stop and think. I don't think a two minute blurb on why someone's behavior is sin--does anyone any good. If you cannot sit down and really relate what you believe--it may just foster that perception.
And YES by ALL means--ex-TWI need to really look at where they want to go after TWI. We were told for years basically everything--so it is the most LOGICAL thing for ex-way to react in the manner of live and let live--It makes PERFECT sense to me.
Any percieved proselytizing or judgement is bound to be met with resistance--it is all too familar!!LOL
My SWAG (since I haven't studied most religions) is that most religions are tolerant - on paper, (the Bible, Koran/Quoran, or various other religious authoratative document.) However, these documents are all subject to interpretation and if the people doing the interpreting are intolerant - you will find intolerance.
People as a whole like to believe they are right - the more "right", the better. How right they really are will be born out in time. For that reason if none other, the arguments should be silenced. By the time I find out if I'm really right - there will nothing I can do about it. I won't even be around for the "I told you so's."
Ooops! How'd I get lost in here? I better head back up to the kitchen.
Your perspective and presence is MORE than welcome. I am honestly interested in all perspectives here. I am curious where people have landed and what is percieved as intolerance. I do agree with you that interpretation is subjective, and truth--can be percieved in many ways--but by its nature can just be one thing. If we look at it from a logical vantage point---that is why I don't abhor the Orthodox--I embrace it. Doesn't mean I KNOW--all truth--far from it--it just means I go with the accepted tenants and doctrines of the Orthodox. It is also why I embrace truth in the person Of Jesus Christ. I am fallible--who would have thought it!!
In terms of the broader question, is Christianity getting more flack today than it did in previous generations? Probably. It is hard to gauge just from one website called Greasespot though, because so many of us do bring baggage from our experience with TWI.
Our society as a whole, is expanding. We have a larger and larger population of diverse beliefs about God, more athiests and agnostics as well. Where as a society homosexuality was once condemned, now homosexual people are coming to be more accepted, even among those who may condemn the act itself. (for example). So, I think as a society we may also be becoming more and more intolerant of intolerance. Because in our country, Christianity has been the norm for so long, the mainstream, Christianity is probably getting hit the hardest. But Christianity is hardly the only religion or group that has factions of intolerant people in it or aspects of its doctrine that could be viewed as intolerant.
I once refused to study Judaism, because I thought it was so completely intolerant. My understanding of it was that it was all based on DNA - genetics. As if a person has any say at all regarding who they are born to, what genes they get. Then, when I finally begain studying it, I realized my intial perceptions were wrong, that it isn't simply about genetics and that it is an incredibly tolerant religion (though of course, there are intolerant sects and individuals within it).
Abby--as usual right on the money--not only are we expanding --we are embracing a more post-modern view of things--That is one of the reasons this interests me so much. Christians--should be out serving more and spouting pronouncments less. That exposes the love of God to a multitude who have seen attitude over works.
It helps to bring those seeking into the fold so to speak.
That is what I teach my kids--show your faith in your deeds--okay maybe they are teaching me!! I am curious about perception and willing to work to express my love for others instead of pointing fingers. That is what Jesus talked about--by their fruit--love your neighbor--I think that is where we Christians often fall short.
We are saved by grace!! We should be rejoicing and serving as He has asked us. True religion--the widows and orphans--that is what attracts me to certain ministries--my son and I do several things each month to serve--but it has to be truly in our hearts as a lifestyle!
Geisha, just out of curiosity, when you speak of the orthodox church, are you referring to Roman Catholic and the Eastern orthodox churches, too? Or are you referring to Protestant Christianity only?
And didn't the Protestant churches start as an aberration of the orthodox church of its time?
I do think Chrisitanity is getting more flack today than in the past, simply because they are now sharing the religious fabric with many others. They have not had to 'share' so to speak in the past and many are now floundering--as their cities and neighborhoods become more and more diverse. Common rhetoric from the past may now be crticized by any number of other faiths.
Plus, with the internet--what happens in small town USA can be known everywhere in a short time. Same ol' same ol' attitudes are now scrutinized by thousands.
Hubby and I once lived in small town midwest. It was a common in the area to have whole towns based around the dominant church--you had your Roman Catholic towns, your Protestant towns. The local public school even transported the kids to a local church one afternoon a week for religious classes. Kids from these small towns might not meet many others not of their faith until college. Big shock there.
Geisha, just out of curiosity, when you speak of the orthodox church, are you referring to Roman Catholic and the Eastern orthodox churches, too? Or are you referring to Protestant Christianity only?
And didn't the Protestant churches start as an aberration of the orthodox church of its time?
So change can't always be bad.
Hi Bramble,
Yes, I do really agree with you--change is not always bad--neither are denominations--this is actually the example I cited to you in my post concerning the reformation.
Good question about Orthodoxy, I thought that might be a confusion. I speak of NO paticular church or denomination when I use the term Orthodox. I use it in a theological sense. Contextual theological orthodoxy, much of where we have been since the reformation--evangelicalism might sound more familar, but I think that term carries way too much baggage. I don't even like to use it and I am more-or-less an evangelical.
Orthodox theology rests on the supposition that scripture is God-breathed so to speak--sola scriptura--a concept I had a tough time with after TWI--It also has a community--boundries and it is more a conversation than edict. I hope that makes sense?
Theology is not a bad word--it is a fun topic--But within the Christian community--there has to be a dialogue. TWI and groups like it--are seperated by THEOLOGY and by practice. They are left with no boundry or community--they can say and practice what they will-but it does not make it accepted Christianity.
If there are so many divergent, and sometimes apparently conflicting interpretations, how can we be sure that our understanding of our faith is correct, that is, faithful to the Judaeo-Christian Tradition? Is it possible to recognize the one faith in the different interpretations? Does pluralism not become an ideology of adaptation when what is adapted or inculturated is considered to be correct? Should we not, perhaps, re-introduce at least some basic and universal truths, conceptually expressed and accepted as such? (Bevans 1992, 18; quoting de Mesa and Wostyn)
Tolerant or Intolerant, that is the question concerning Christianity, but not only Christianity. I think we are all a bit of both of these toward one another at various times and for a
multiplicity of rhymes and reasons whether they are sound or unsound, founded or unfounded, religious or political.
Many posters to this thread have indicated they have made their Belief choices; either long term or temporarily and wish to have them respected. (and I do)!!! There is nothing unusual
or unexpected in that!
When reading this thread so much was covered that the only thing I wish to add is that as a Christan, I hope that my next statements will be tolerated and understood in the Love I wish
to present them!!!
Most of You know and understand Christianity in it's original purest unadulterated form; which IMHO, is The Bible, excluding denominational doctrines and practices.
Everything in the Bible screams loudly and clearly Love, Preach, Teach, Help, Save,... on and on... to those whom GOD knew would believe Him; and would want to see, to hear, and to
understand all that there is to see, to hear and to understand about Him!!! He is our Alpha and Omega, the author and finisher of ALL!
Myself as a Christian, I can honestly say that it is Very Difficultfor me, particularly, to accept that if ANY one's choice is not the GOD of the Bible, in it's purest and most
unadulterated form; free of denominational isms, that the justice and judgment of GOD will come upon You as stated in the Bible.
That is Heartbreaking to me. I respectfully, can only hope that IF(THE BIG IF) You are as wrong in weighing Your finally outcome as I respectfully
believe You are; that at one precious moment in Your lives You were born again, so that I will see You in the sky and for all eternity! Out of Love I wish this for You All.
I am Christan out of Love, Reverence and Respect of and for GOD, personally as my Father! I have seen His hand indisputably throughout my entire life, not as often as it has
been there and mostly in retrospect have I known it.
He is Real to me in every biblical aspect. If I got what I truly deserved for all my sins and stone cold seriously no eternal life; I am still glad to have walked with Him;
or more accurately to have known that He walked with me here on earth. That He Loved me enough to be there every milosec!!!
He saved my life so many times and in so many ways. He made all the simplest of things in life the most beautiful and priceless treasures. He taught me how to love beyond my own
self. He gave me a reason and a purpose to live, because on my own looking at this world I could never really find a worthy enough one. Maybe I have just seen way too much of the
ugly cruelties and evils of this world. They are the things I can tolerate the very least of all!!!
He answered my biggest questions of all. How can there be so many GODs, so many doctrines, so much confusion that everything and anything is acceptable or on it's way to being
acceptable???
The thing that I am truly afraid of is that in this pluralistic world if anything and everything is acceptable...What is truly valuable???
Can You understand that a Christian is as tolerant as GOD is, as tolerant as His Word is and as tolerant as Jesus Christ is???
The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.
Was the definition put forth by geisha in the initial post in this thread.
Are Christians tolerant or intolerant?
The definition above mentions two characteristics of tolerance, recognition and respect.
I guess it depends on what you mean by recognition and respect.
I imagine that most if not all Christians recognize the existance of other beliefs and respect the right of those folks to make those decisions. So I guess a Christian, by definition can be tolerant and still be a Christian. Although I have encountered those who think that we aren't true citizens and that our faith should not be recognized as such.
But since most Christians would view my choice of faith as wrong, and somehow bad, then I doubt that there's any real respect there.
Can something be true for you and not for me? I think where some folks miss it is seeing different doctrines and religions as mutually exclusive, rather than different aspect or facets of the same whole. Some religions are exclusive in that they don't believe that other religions can be true, some are more inclusive.
This totally smacks of the egotism, judgementalism and intolerance that you ask about Geisha. It's reminiscent of my attitude during my TWI days.
Belle, I always hope that we can communicate with honesty and lack of hostility since I am long done with the days of theological arguing. I will always respect your right to speak and I hope you will offer the same.
You say my statements smack of egotism. Well that just depends on what your theology is.
Look, if God doesn't exist, or if He does exist as some metaphysical ball of energy of whom we can never know anything about, then your accusation would be correct. It would be quite presumptuous of me to imply that anyone's behavior or belief system other than my owns is faulty, since we could never know for certain what the truth is.
However, if there is a personal being called Yahweh who is who He says He is i.e. the creator, the originator, the giver of truth and one who will judge all men, then my statement would not be egotistical. I do not believe it is difficult to document that the bible speaks against homosexuality. But if God truly is the "Author" of it, then how is it egotistical to say to someone that what they are practicing is incorrect?
For you to say that my statement is egotistical is presumptuous of you. Do you truly know my heart? If God doesn't exist, then everything is an illusion and the existentialists are correct.
However if God truly does exist, then I would not be egotistical, I would be a defender of what God has spoken. Wouldn't I? How would that be egotistical? If someone is offended at what God has to say, that makes no difference to me. I have had to overcome the "uncomfortable" realities of my own sin and just what a wicked little person I can be and have been.
Even if no one ever spoke out against anything anybody did or practiced, the words and instruction would still be recorded in the pages of scripture. That means Paul and Moses and Jeremiah and even Jesus himself would have to be accused by you of the same charge. I'm sure you know you can go to the gospels and find some pretty "egotistical" statements made by Christ himself. Well, they would be egotistical if he was a false Messiah, but since he was not, what he spoke was the truth straight from God. Did it matter that anybody got upset about it (which they did)?
All I can say is that if God doesn't exist, in this matter, I am the fool. If He does exist, then you are the fool.
We already ARE IN a pluralistic world! Look at your own community. I'll bet there is plenty of different faiths.
My small area has over one hundred different Christian churches. It has Moslems, Hindus, Sikhs, pagans and Jews, Bahai--and most of those weren't here fifty years ago--back then it was mainline denominations on the street corners.
What is of value? Freedom of choice for one. Safety from religious persecution. Equal treatment under the laws of the land. To be able to live peacably in one's own community, to celebrate your own faith and holy days. To raise your children without a dominant religion interfereing. To not have to hide your faith for fear of community or emploment ramifications.
The question isn't so much "Do we like pluralism?"--the question is more "How do you handle pluralism?"--because it is here.
I believe that Christianity preaches tolerance and I have met a lot of Christians who are, but not every Christian is tolerant. This seems to be true of all groups, though and the negative sides to anything usually get more media attention.
I also think that people confuse ignorance with intolerance. Maybe one leads to the other? I don't know. A Christian person once accused me of being an atheist (as if that were a bad thing) based on my political views and got angry when I said I was also a Christian. I doubt she represented her whole sect. A lot of Christians I've met tend to come off too strong and others have been just plain rude but that had to do more with their personality than their religion.
Thanks for these interesting questions. I've been wondering about this lately, too.
Was the definition put forth by geisha in the initial post in this thread.
Are Christians tolerant or intolerant?
The definition above mentions two characteristics of tolerance, recognition and respect.
I guess it depends on what you mean by recognition and respect.
I imagine that most if not all Christians recognize the existance of other beliefs and respect the right of those folks to make those decisions. So I guess a Christian, by definition can be tolerant and still be a Christian. Although I have encountered those who think that we aren't true citizens and that our faith should not be recognized as such.
But since most Christians would view my choice of faith as wrong, and somehow bad, then I doubt that there's any real respect there.
Can something be true for you and not for me? I think where some folks miss it is seeing different doctrines and religions as mutually exclusive, rather than different aspect or facets of the same whole. Some religions are exclusive in that they don't believe that other religions can be true, some are more inclusive.
I wonder "Oak" how tolerant you were of Paganism--while claiming Christianity? Now, I have to tell you---TWI was anything but a humble and meek group of people--we were marked out by arrogance, so it may be a moot point.
To be fair here, I have to look at this honestly. Christianity CAN appear exclusive---and it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to respect your faith as TRUE. But, should there be a witch hunt revival--and they sought to burn a few withches(I do live in MA)I am sure I would fight against it. :) That would be part of my faith.
That is not to say I would want Wiccan's or Pagan's on the Church bulletien as has happened in a place I have worshipped. Put on there by the Chaplain. The wife of a very famous musician. It took Evangelical Christians coming in protest and actually in a position of authority at the school to raise the issue. All other "Christians" were content to allow them to express themselves(Wiccans-Pagans) IN THE CHAPEL. My very good friends moved here and the hubby is the CFO of the school. He and his wife fought a very political battle to have the Wiccan and Pagan agenda removed from the church. NOT from the school. It was so so so interesting to watch this.
The Chaplain had clout as her husband was a big draw for students to come to the school. It is a boarding school that cost MORE than most colleges. It was founded by a Christian(DL Moody)--but had long since left its roots to embrace cultural diversity. The President(Nice man)came from the state department having been an undersectratary. He was a diplomat who refused to actually take a stand. My friends had to fight this without looking like they were discriminating against a religion. It went on foer a year. It got heated--it got UGLY--and eventually the Chaplain left the school. Why was it such an important thing to have them removed?
The Chapel is for Christian worship--to have what most Christian consider idolatry---functioning as a legitimate religious faith---within the Chapel---was offensive. But not to all--it was that way for the bible believing--Jesus following Christians. The PAgan's were not disbanded. They were just not allowed to meet and worship in the Chapel. The two faiths could not share the space. The Wiccan's didn't mind--it was a certain element within the Christian community.
Is that intolerant? Wiccan's were given there own place--much better suited for their practices--although the Chapel is a great old stone Gothic looking structure. They were not booted from campus.
I watched a similar thing happen there when I went to hear J.C Watts speak at the school. A Christian politician--the gay groups on campus--they were in an uproar --outraged before he opened his mouth. I watched a girl have to be led away from the Mike during Q&A because she was so upset--he is against gay marraige. She called him all kinds of things. As the school invited him--it was a bit embarassing all around. You could see the seething on her part.
You could see the glee on the pagans part--and the outrage that there was a distinction drawn between them and Christians as those welcome at the Chapel.
I live in a very very liberal and diverse place--college towns everywhere--I see Christians labeled as intolerant all the time.
It smacks of hypocrisy to me--if I don't accept pluralistic relativist truth--without even a conversation--I am labeled intolerant. So, if I am not living my faith correctly--it may be justified, but if I am--it is hypocritical.
I see it on these doctrinal threads as well. Non-Christians seem to say whatever they want about Christianity--and sometimes Christians--were I to get into what I believe about idolatry--the roof would come down on my head--notice I said what I, I, I, I, believe.
The concept of Hell bothers some--it runs contrary to THEIR thinking and therefore irritates.
No, seems the whole intolerance thing--is just a way of saying--you have to accept all faiths as legitimate--I can't make proclamations according to the bible--but we can trash the God of the bible.
That doesn't motivate me when people call God names.
AND YES-sometimes I really do agree with you on issues. You are well thought out and I appreciate that in a person. I also recognize true statements and logical thought.
This thread has been dancing around the issue of intolerance--I think it comes from non-christians a bit more readily than Christians.
I wonder "Oak" how tolerant you were of Paganism--while claiming Christianity?
Pre-TWI, I didn't think about it much. I lived in a pretty homogenous neighborhood, probably 80% + one denomination, overwhelming majority were two European ethnic groups, other than Jews, I didn't encounter any non-Christians that I knew about, even in high school, maybe not even in college.
Now, I have to tell you---TWI was anything but a humble and meek group of people--we were marked out by arrogance, so it may be a moot point.
Oh, I was as intolerant as anybody else in TWI while I was part of it. Remember those Way Magazine articles in the 90's about goddess worship? I did a lot of the groundwork several years before, taught branch and limb meetings on the subject. So, yeah, I was intolerant.
To be fair here, I have to look at this honestly. Christianity CAN appear exclusive---and it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to respect your faith as TRUE. But, should there be a witch hunt revival--and they sought to burn a few withches(I do live in MA)I am sure I would fight against it. :) That would be part of my faith.
I believe that Christianity is at once exclusive and open. Open in that anyone can be a Christian if they confess the right confession, there's no preconditions, but I believe that's true of most religions these days. I know of some ethnic-based faiths that discourage people of other cultures from joining, and even consider those from other ethnic groups to be not of their faith even if they do all the right things. Some Native American and Hindu traditions come to mind. (Not all or even most, but I have heard of them). Exclusive in that for most Christians, anyone outside the pale is damned, S.O.L. as far as eternal life goes. Personally I don't have any problem with people believing that, but I don't agree with it.
Now, as far as viewing my faith as TRUE, I don't really expect that. I understand that about Christianity. What I object to is Christians who "invade my space" to make sure that I know that they think that I'm going to hell or whatever.
Is that intolerant? Wiccan's were given there own place--much better suited for their practices--although the Chapel is a great old stone Gothic looking structure. They were not booted from campus.
I don't think that I ever said that pagans couldn't be intolerant. Some of the ones that I know are every bit as dogmatic and uncompromising as, well...you
I see it on these doctrinal threads as well. Non-Christians seem to say whatever they want about Christianity--and sometimes Christians--were I to get into what I believe about idolatry--the roof would come down on my head--notice I said what I, I, I, I, believe.
Geisha, the non-Christians are a tiny minority on this site. There's about 6 atheists and/or agnostics, two pagans and one Buddhist that I know of. The Christians are hardly being overwhelmed here.
No, seems the whole intolerance thing--is just a way of saying--you have to accept all faiths as legitimate--I can't make proclamations according to the bible--but we can trash the God of the bible.
You make proclamations about your god and the bible all the time, so do plenty of others, some disagree.
This thread has been dancing around the issue of intolerance--I think it comes from non-christians a bit more readily than Christians.
I disagree. I don't think the non-Christians are immune from intolerance, but not any more suseptible to it. A non-Christian objecting to a Christian telling him that he is going to hell, or that his faith is illegitimate because it varies from the Christian's, is similar in my estimation to a black person being asked to be more tolerant and accepting of the Klansman or White Supremicist.
Recommended Posts
OneWhoIsFree
The fact of the matter is that if God exists and has spoken to us via the scripture, then He has spoken what He has spoken. The truth is the truth and was the truth long before I came around and darkened the earth with my shadow.
People who label Christianity as "intolerant" are simply demonstrating their own lack of meekness and their intolerance for what God has to say about life.
Christ said that people don't come to the light because they know their wickedness will be exposed. You can see why a homosexual might have a tough time coming to Christ because he knows God disapproves of his behavior and will be asked to change. He loving the sin, doesn't want to change and violently protects his idol by hurling insults at man and God.
All will be revealed at the white throne.
Free
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Hi Free,
That is a great example of a group that can call Christians intolerant. I have to wonder though if we don't do a bit to aid that perception. I spent the other day working with a lesbian couple I know--they are nice ladies--very ethical. They said that they really like hubby and I--and were shocked to learn we were Christians--they can't stand Christians because they think Christians are intolerant. She just called me a few minutes ago!!
We had a nice talk--and when asked if I thought homosexuality was wrong-- I said I would love to have that discussion with them sometime when we could sit and give it the attention it deserved. I didn't want to pronounce their lifestyle abberant and quote the bible at them. I didn't want to ruin a relationship that seems mutually respectful with a two minute chat. I would rather let them know me as a person who respects them as people. Who does a good job for them and is friendly and kind. If they are really interested in what I think--I would like to sit down with love and reason from the scriptures with them.
It is a hard thing to give up sin--we do it for the love of Christ. It is a struggle. We must know His love to love Him back and give things up for Him. It is a process and requires real healing. Do we show them the love of God? I hope we do.
Good point --- the bible often convicts us of that we don't want to deal with. My hope is for those perishing to come to the throne now--We can change that perception of intolerance by living our faith. :) It is a fun ride!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
There are over 30,000 different Christian doctrines. Some are more tolerant than others. In my area the PCUSA, the Episcopols and the MEthodist church are very accepting. My kids have been involved in the Methodist church youth group off and on for years.
On the other hand, we've removed our kids from two youth groups that either treated the non member parents like scum( and yes, we contributed financially to their youth group) or our kids came home with 'you're not a Christian' type stuff, which neither hubby or I was comfortable with especially having been divided from our families in our TWI tango..
Who gets to choose which truth is truth for all mankind? Isn't the world a healthier place if people can make that choice individually? Because, they are going to, anyway. Even if a religion has the force of the law behind it, some will choose to believe differently.
I think one true truth for all of mankind is a fanatsy--it has never existed and never will. I don't think the human spiritual capacity is such that we can all see and accept the same thing as truth, and to expect it leads to strife in the end.
Is religious diversity a healthy thing--or should we all believe the same truth? Again, who gets to choose?
Are different beliefs a danger to you? Some no doubt are, which is we need a rule of law or zelots of one stripe or another will attempt to take away our freedom.
It was just a year ago that fallen pagan soldiers were able to have their religious symbol enscribed on ther tombstones in military cemetaries. And they had to get legal for it to happen.
Our open midsummer festival has to have a sherrif presence, guess why? And yet the pagans in my area have never made a habitof harassing those certain churches on Sunday morning.. So don't tell me all Christians are tolerant and anyone who calls them intollerant is in error.
In my personal life I avoid those who want to change me for my own good. I think it is arrogant and condescending, even though i know that often the person is sincere in wanting to help me. They are not able to see that it is arrogant and condescending because of their doctrinal thought processes. People who are close to me in my life care for me as I am.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
It's a very broad question, Geisha, which makes it very very hard to answer. Christianity itself is hard to define - so many denominations, so many doctrines, so many differences among them all! Then there is the concept of tolerance, or intolerance. Intolerant of what?
Some Christians are intolerant of anyone who believes differently than they do - as evidenced by TWI. Some Christians are intolerant of those who don't believe in the trinity or those who do. Some of homosexuals. The list could be endless.
So, some Jews are intolerant of non-Jews. Some are intolerant of the orthodox and some are intolerant of the reformed. I'll bet there are likewise some pagans who are intolerant of one group or another. That is just people, unfortunately. Some of us are intolerant of the intolerant too.
So maybe, just maybe, what concerns you more is "do people perceive you as being intolerant?" I don't know. I'm guessing based on what I have read down here, that perhaps that is at least a part of your question.
So, I'll tell you what I think. I don't believe you are intolerant. I think you are very very convicted/convinced of your beliefs. I also think you care deeply about people. Because of those two things, I believe you want to see "all people" come to the knowledge of your faith and be saved. It is a noble endeavor, given your convictions. However, in THIS FORMAT, it makes it easy for people to misunderstand where you are coming from and perceive you as being intolerant, even though you aren't.
One thing that helps with that is to use "I" statements. Instead of simply saying "this is what the Bible says, this is the way it is" if you said "this is what I believe the Bible says and therefore this is the way I believe it is" it leaves a bit of a crack in the door that makes conversation easier.
You are, in essence, saying the same thing - but you are saying it in a way that invites a more open back and forth conversation. It is a small thing, but because we do not have facial expressions and tone of voice, it really does make a difference.
It makes some of us quite prickly if we feel we are being preached at, or if we feel someone is trying to "witness" to us. First and foremost, many of us just want to be accepted for who we are now. Now, I am Jewish. I cannot say what I will call myself a year or two from now. Something could happen that could change my point of view. But for now, I want to be accepted for who I am, in exactly this place and time in my journey.
In terms of the broader question, is Christianity getting more flack today than it did in previous generations? Probably. It is hard to gauge just from one website called Greasespot though, because so many of us do bring baggage from our experience with TWI.
Our society as a whole, is expanding. We have a larger and larger population of diverse beliefs about God, more athiests and agnostics as well. Where as a society homosexuality was once condemned, now homosexual people are coming to be more accepted, even among those who may condemn the act itself. (for example). So, I think as a society we may also be becoming more and more intolerant of intolerance. Because in our country, Christianity has been the norm for so long, the mainstream, Christianity is probably getting hit the hardest. But Christianity is hardly the only religion or group that has factions of intolerant people in it or aspects of its doctrine that could be viewed as intolerant.
I once refused to study Judaism, because I thought it was so completely intolerant. My understanding of it was that it was all based on DNA - genetics. As if a person has any say at all regarding who they are born to, what genes they get. Then, when I finally begain studying it, I realized my intial perceptions were wrong, that it isn't simply about genetics and that it is an incredibly tolerant religion (though of course, there are intolerant sects and individuals within it).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Link to an interesting essay on the definition( they have over 40 definitions) of Who Is A Christian?
Another article on One True Religion?:
Both seemed relevant to the topic (at least to me, ymmv).
http://www.religioustolerance.org/
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
One more article on how Christians view other religions:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_othe1.htm
As you can see, there is no one Christian viewpoint on these issues.
And an interesting website on the changing religious landscape in the US:
http://www.pluralism.org/
Edited by BrambleLink to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
This totally smacks of the egotism, judgementalism and intolerance that you ask about Geisha. It's reminiscent of my attitude during my TWI days.
Are you, Geisha, tolerant? I tend to think so based on what I've seen here. Like Abi, I see someone who really cares about people and who is considerate of her audience while not wavering on her personal belief system.
I think that "to each his own" is more of my philosophy. If whatever you're doing works FOR YOU - Great! I'm doing what works FOR ME and it may not be the same thing that works for anyone else. I enjoy sharing ideas, but I abhor being told that I'm lacking meekness and full of sin because I don't subscribe to the same belief system.
I, frankly, do see it more in so-called Christians than I do with any other group, but that's just what I'm exposed to and does not make it universal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
My SWAG (since I haven't studied most religions) is that most religions are tolerant - on paper, (the Bible, Koran/Quoran, or various other religious authoratative document.) However, these documents are all subject to interpretation and if the people doing the interpreting are intolerant - you will find intolerance.
People as a whole like to believe they are right - the more "right", the better. How right they really are will be born out in time. For that reason if none other, the arguments should be silenced. By the time I find out if I'm really right - there will nothing I can do about it. I won't even be around for the "I told you so's."
Ooops! How'd I get lost in here? I better head back up to the kitchen.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Bramble
I LOVE IT!! Thank-you because that is one of the things I am talking about!! Pluralism--all inclusiveness--just because you say I am not a Christian--you don't define me kinda thinking!!!
Aberrant forms of Christianity--or new religion all have something in common--similar to TWI!!! They seeks to redefine Christianity--one historically--and two from the outside--by redefining or changing the basic tenants of Christianity and are supported by those advocating TOLERANCE!! :)
I am so glad you chose those sites--because much of my discussions with others here--are based on these very ideas. The idea that you can be a Christian--remaking traditional biblical understanding. Isn't the basic doctrines of the bible what make us Christian--The Jesus of the bible??
Bramble, I honestly think this is what frustrates people in TWI and those who still hold to the doctrines they learned here. I would love to calmly and honestly have this discussion because I am genuinley interested in this. Not out of zeal, but because I actually understand both sides.
It comes down to truth again. A REALITY that has a corresponding OBJECT. The details about that reality---cannot be opposite and both be true. Therefore it comes down to a CHOICE on what you believe to be the reality. Conditioning--must be considered--a certain trained perspective has to honestly be evaluated. FEAR MOTIVATION on both sides has to be dealt with before we come to an understanding. If we decide our idea is the right one and it puts us at odds with the ORTHODOX(Which is NOT a BAD word--it means rules and beliefs which are approved)then we are OUTSIDE the norm. The Church defines itself by its doctrines Bramble--that is a GOOD thing. It defines itself by biblical truth.
If we break away from these basic doctrines we are then defined as ABERRANT(straying from the right or normal way ). No longer Christian in the accepted and approved or Orthodox way. There has to be a right way. Truth requires it by its very nature.
However, if one decides this is not the case and reacts out of frustration at percieved intolerance--a deeper look and understanding of the why's are a most important factor for the one claiming "New Truth" or "Special Knowledge" or a widely differing understanding of basic biblical doctrines. Truth has an object to which its reality corresponds.
Tolerance does not mean accepting all truths as reality--that is not what it is--it is not even a LOGICAL possibility. Therefore, the one advocating a "NEW' truth--and calling it Christianity--may actually be in rebellion(NOT ALWAYS A BAD WORD opposition to one in authority or dominance) to the ORTHODOX.
Denominations are often born from rebellion or renewal. That is one of the many reasons denominations are not always BAD things--if they hold to the basic tenants of Christianity. The reform movements of the 16th century were to restore teachings the church had eclipsed by then--justification-salvation by faith-the sovereignty of God. Some presbyterians caved to the pressures of liberalism and new groups were formed to preserve the traditions. Often a denomination is formed to combat some aberrant form of the same denomination. Baptists came along in the reformed tradition advocating these principles--justification by faith be applied to the church. Pentecostals and charismatics formed unions based on their views of spiritual gifts.
They are also formed out of churches seeking fellowship. The important thing to look at--the standard by which we evaluate a denomination--is its teachings and practices and its adherence to scripture--in its Orthodox understanding.
See, it is alot bigger than everyone is right. That is an impossibility. As a seeker of Christ, you must choose the aberrant or the Orthodox--which seems to be a word that grates on some. That should be examined as well. Why would such a simple word grate? Could it be percieved intolerance?
I submit the onus is actually on the one with "New Light" or opposing theology. I know there are biblical warnings on these very issues. Where or from whom did we learn our theology(NOT a bad word The study of God and of God's relation to the world) must be deeply cosidered.
If we did not understand similar issues before we were taught by TWI--as many claim--could it STILL be our own understanding--seeking a system to validate our rebellion to the Orthodox?
New Religious movements like TWI--all share common characteristics--one of those being EXCLUSIONARY and ELITIST in theology.
You see, I can respect your faith or Abigails so much easier than I can an aberrant form of MY FAITH. BEcause, I see it as a breaking away from the right theology to embrace and elitist and exclusionary form with "New Authority" "Justification and defense of false teaching" "Untrained lay people as leaders" "Central MOGS" "An understanding of being the 'True" body" "Predatory recruitment" "Sanctioning of heretical figures" "Legalistic demands of members while leaders living sin filled lives" .
These groups who claim "Special Revelation" also usually have a highly autocratic system which controls every aspect of its members lives. They usurp Christian vocabulary and change the meaning of words or phrases. They emphasize secondary issues and minor points of theology. They emphasize EXPERIENCE over doctrine. They dabble in the occult.
I can see tolerating anothers beliefs--but if they claim Christianity and by their very nature are destructive--I must as a Christian--speak out.
Christianity is actually ONE FAITH --and CHRIST CENTERED. So, it has to be one truth about Christ--hope that makes sense??? Caps are for emphasis NOT shouting! :)
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I see alot of "truth" and good old common sense in what you say--Christians should be more than tolerant IMHO--they should be out there in the community serving and showing God's love--NOT condemning--but coming out of TWI I have really had to look at this stuff. I seem to come across as intolerant sometimes--but I hear that about Christians as a whole--more and more. It has made me stop and think. I don't think a two minute blurb on why someone's behavior is sin--does anyone any good. If you cannot sit down and really relate what you believe--it may just foster that perception.
And YES by ALL means--ex-TWI need to really look at where they want to go after TWI. We were told for years basically everything--so it is the most LOGICAL thing for ex-way to react in the manner of live and let live--It makes PERFECT sense to me.
Any percieved proselytizing or judgement is bound to be met with resistance--it is all too familar!!LOL
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Your perspective and presence is MORE than welcome. I am honestly interested in all perspectives here. I am curious where people have landed and what is percieved as intolerance. I do agree with you that interpretation is subjective, and truth--can be percieved in many ways--but by its nature can just be one thing. If we look at it from a logical vantage point---that is why I don't abhor the Orthodox--I embrace it. Doesn't mean I KNOW--all truth--far from it--it just means I go with the accepted tenants and doctrines of the Orthodox. It is also why I embrace truth in the person Of Jesus Christ. I am fallible--who would have thought it!!
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Abby--as usual right on the money--not only are we expanding --we are embracing a more post-modern view of things--That is one of the reasons this interests me so much. Christians--should be out serving more and spouting pronouncments less. That exposes the love of God to a multitude who have seen attitude over works.
It helps to bring those seeking into the fold so to speak.
That is what I teach my kids--show your faith in your deeds--okay maybe they are teaching me!! I am curious about perception and willing to work to express my love for others instead of pointing fingers. That is what Jesus talked about--by their fruit--love your neighbor--I think that is where we Christians often fall short.
We are saved by grace!! We should be rejoicing and serving as He has asked us. True religion--the widows and orphans--that is what attracts me to certain ministries--my son and I do several things each month to serve--but it has to be truly in our hearts as a lifestyle!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Geisha, just out of curiosity, when you speak of the orthodox church, are you referring to Roman Catholic and the Eastern orthodox churches, too? Or are you referring to Protestant Christianity only?
And didn't the Protestant churches start as an aberration of the orthodox church of its time?
So change can't always be bad.
Edited by BrambleLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
I do think Chrisitanity is getting more flack today than in the past, simply because they are now sharing the religious fabric with many others. They have not had to 'share' so to speak in the past and many are now floundering--as their cities and neighborhoods become more and more diverse. Common rhetoric from the past may now be crticized by any number of other faiths.
Plus, with the internet--what happens in small town USA can be known everywhere in a short time. Same ol' same ol' attitudes are now scrutinized by thousands.
Hubby and I once lived in small town midwest. It was a common in the area to have whole towns based around the dominant church--you had your Roman Catholic towns, your Protestant towns. The local public school even transported the kids to a local church one afternoon a week for religious classes. Kids from these small towns might not meet many others not of their faith until college. Big shock there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Hi Bramble,
Yes, I do really agree with you--change is not always bad--neither are denominations--this is actually the example I cited to you in my post concerning the reformation.
Good question about Orthodoxy, I thought that might be a confusion. I speak of NO paticular church or denomination when I use the term Orthodox. I use it in a theological sense. Contextual theological orthodoxy, much of where we have been since the reformation--evangelicalism might sound more familar, but I think that term carries way too much baggage. I don't even like to use it and I am more-or-less an evangelical.
Orthodox theology rests on the supposition that scripture is God-breathed so to speak--sola scriptura--a concept I had a tough time with after TWI--It also has a community--boundries and it is more a conversation than edict. I hope that makes sense?
Theology is not a bad word--it is a fun topic--But within the Christian community--there has to be a dialogue. TWI and groups like it--are seperated by THEOLOGY and by practice. They are left with no boundry or community--they can say and practice what they will-but it does not make it accepted Christianity.
If there are so many divergent, and sometimes apparently conflicting interpretations, how can we be sure that our understanding of our faith is correct, that is, faithful to the Judaeo-Christian Tradition? Is it possible to recognize the one faith in the different interpretations? Does pluralism not become an ideology of adaptation when what is adapted or inculturated is considered to be correct? Should we not, perhaps, re-introduce at least some basic and universal truths, conceptually expressed and accepted as such? (Bevans 1992, 18; quoting de Mesa and Wostyn)
Hope that helps explain how I use Orthodox.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
RainbowsGirl
Tolerant or Intolerant, that is the question concerning Christianity, but not only Christianity. I think we are all a bit of both of these toward one another at various times and for a
multiplicity of rhymes and reasons whether they are sound or unsound, founded or unfounded, religious or political.
Many posters to this thread have indicated they have made their Belief choices; either long term or temporarily and wish to have them respected. (and I do)!!! There is nothing unusual
or unexpected in that!
When reading this thread so much was covered that the only thing I wish to add is that as a Christan, I hope that my next statements will be tolerated and understood in the Love I wish
to present them!!!
Most of You know and understand Christianity in it's original purest unadulterated form; which IMHO, is The Bible, excluding denominational doctrines and practices.
Everything in the Bible screams loudly and clearly Love, Preach, Teach, Help, Save,... on and on... to those whom GOD knew would believe Him; and would want to see, to hear, and to
understand all that there is to see, to hear and to understand about Him!!! He is our Alpha and Omega, the author and finisher of ALL!
Myself as a Christian, I can honestly say that it is Very Difficult for me, particularly, to accept that if ANY one's choice is not the GOD of the Bible, in it's purest and most
unadulterated form; free of denominational isms, that the justice and judgment of GOD will come upon You as stated in the Bible.
That is Heartbreaking to me. I respectfully, can only hope that IF (THE BIG IF) You are as wrong in weighing Your finally outcome as I respectfully
believe You are; that at one precious moment in Your lives You were born again, so that I will see You in the sky and for all eternity! Out of Love I wish this for You All.
I am Christan out of Love, Reverence and Respect of and for GOD, personally as my Father! I have seen His hand indisputably throughout my entire life, not as often as it has
been there and mostly in retrospect have I known it.
He is Real to me in every biblical aspect. If I got what I truly deserved for all my sins and stone cold seriously no eternal life; I am still glad to have walked with Him;
or more accurately to have known that He walked with me here on earth. That He Loved me enough to be there every milosec!!!
He saved my life so many times and in so many ways. He made all the simplest of things in life the most beautiful and priceless treasures. He taught me how to love beyond my own
self. He gave me a reason and a purpose to live, because on my own looking at this world I could never really find a worthy enough one. Maybe I have just seen way too much of the
ugly cruelties and evils of this world. They are the things I can tolerate the very least of all!!!
He answered my biggest questions of all. How can there be so many GODs, so many doctrines, so much confusion that everything and anything is acceptable or on it's way to being
acceptable???
The thing that I am truly afraid of is that in this pluralistic world if anything and everything is acceptable...What is truly valuable???
Can You understand that a Christian is as tolerant as GOD is, as tolerant as His Word is and as tolerant as Jesus Christ is???
Edited to make grammatical corrections
Edited by RainbowsGirlLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Are Christians tolerant or intolerant?
The definition above mentions two characteristics of tolerance, recognition and respect.
I guess it depends on what you mean by recognition and respect.
I imagine that most if not all Christians recognize the existance of other beliefs and respect the right of those folks to make those decisions. So I guess a Christian, by definition can be tolerant and still be a Christian. Although I have encountered those who think that we aren't true citizens and that our faith should not be recognized as such.
But since most Christians would view my choice of faith as wrong, and somehow bad, then I doubt that there's any real respect there.
Can something be true for you and not for me? I think where some folks miss it is seeing different doctrines and religions as mutually exclusive, rather than different aspect or facets of the same whole. Some religions are exclusive in that they don't believe that other religions can be true, some are more inclusive.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OneWhoIsFree
Belle, I always hope that we can communicate with honesty and lack of hostility since I am long done with the days of theological arguing. I will always respect your right to speak and I hope you will offer the same.
You say my statements smack of egotism. Well that just depends on what your theology is.
Look, if God doesn't exist, or if He does exist as some metaphysical ball of energy of whom we can never know anything about, then your accusation would be correct. It would be quite presumptuous of me to imply that anyone's behavior or belief system other than my owns is faulty, since we could never know for certain what the truth is.
However, if there is a personal being called Yahweh who is who He says He is i.e. the creator, the originator, the giver of truth and one who will judge all men, then my statement would not be egotistical. I do not believe it is difficult to document that the bible speaks against homosexuality. But if God truly is the "Author" of it, then how is it egotistical to say to someone that what they are practicing is incorrect?
For you to say that my statement is egotistical is presumptuous of you. Do you truly know my heart? If God doesn't exist, then everything is an illusion and the existentialists are correct.
However if God truly does exist, then I would not be egotistical, I would be a defender of what God has spoken. Wouldn't I? How would that be egotistical? If someone is offended at what God has to say, that makes no difference to me. I have had to overcome the "uncomfortable" realities of my own sin and just what a wicked little person I can be and have been.
Even if no one ever spoke out against anything anybody did or practiced, the words and instruction would still be recorded in the pages of scripture. That means Paul and Moses and Jeremiah and even Jesus himself would have to be accused by you of the same charge. I'm sure you know you can go to the gospels and find some pretty "egotistical" statements made by Christ himself. Well, they would be egotistical if he was a false Messiah, but since he was not, what he spoke was the truth straight from God. Did it matter that anybody got upset about it (which they did)?
All I can say is that if God doesn't exist, in this matter, I am the fool. If He does exist, then you are the fool.
All in fun!! :D
Free
Edited by OneWhoIsFreeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
We already ARE IN a pluralistic world! Look at your own community. I'll bet there is plenty of different faiths.
My small area has over one hundred different Christian churches. It has Moslems, Hindus, Sikhs, pagans and Jews, Bahai--and most of those weren't here fifty years ago--back then it was mainline denominations on the street corners.
What is of value? Freedom of choice for one. Safety from religious persecution. Equal treatment under the laws of the land. To be able to live peacably in one's own community, to celebrate your own faith and holy days. To raise your children without a dominant religion interfereing. To not have to hide your faith for fear of community or emploment ramifications.
The question isn't so much "Do we like pluralism?"--the question is more "How do you handle pluralism?"--because it is here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
kenwas
I believe that Christianity preaches tolerance and I have met a lot of Christians who are, but not every Christian is tolerant. This seems to be true of all groups, though and the negative sides to anything usually get more media attention.
I also think that people confuse ignorance with intolerance. Maybe one leads to the other? I don't know. A Christian person once accused me of being an atheist (as if that were a bad thing) based on my political views and got angry when I said I was also a Christian. I doubt she represented her whole sect. A lot of Christians I've met tend to come off too strong and others have been just plain rude but that had to do more with their personality than their religion.
Thanks for these interesting questions. I've been wondering about this lately, too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I wonder "Oak" how tolerant you were of Paganism--while claiming Christianity? Now, I have to tell you---TWI was anything but a humble and meek group of people--we were marked out by arrogance, so it may be a moot point.
To be fair here, I have to look at this honestly. Christianity CAN appear exclusive---and it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to respect your faith as TRUE. But, should there be a witch hunt revival--and they sought to burn a few withches(I do live in MA)I am sure I would fight against it. :) That would be part of my faith.
That is not to say I would want Wiccan's or Pagan's on the Church bulletien as has happened in a place I have worshipped. Put on there by the Chaplain. The wife of a very famous musician. It took Evangelical Christians coming in protest and actually in a position of authority at the school to raise the issue. All other "Christians" were content to allow them to express themselves(Wiccans-Pagans) IN THE CHAPEL. My very good friends moved here and the hubby is the CFO of the school. He and his wife fought a very political battle to have the Wiccan and Pagan agenda removed from the church. NOT from the school. It was so so so interesting to watch this.
The Chaplain had clout as her husband was a big draw for students to come to the school. It is a boarding school that cost MORE than most colleges. It was founded by a Christian(DL Moody)--but had long since left its roots to embrace cultural diversity. The President(Nice man)came from the state department having been an undersectratary. He was a diplomat who refused to actually take a stand. My friends had to fight this without looking like they were discriminating against a religion. It went on foer a year. It got heated--it got UGLY--and eventually the Chaplain left the school. Why was it such an important thing to have them removed?
The Chapel is for Christian worship--to have what most Christian consider idolatry---functioning as a legitimate religious faith---within the Chapel---was offensive. But not to all--it was that way for the bible believing--Jesus following Christians. The PAgan's were not disbanded. They were just not allowed to meet and worship in the Chapel. The two faiths could not share the space. The Wiccan's didn't mind--it was a certain element within the Christian community.
Is that intolerant? Wiccan's were given there own place--much better suited for their practices--although the Chapel is a great old stone Gothic looking structure. They were not booted from campus.
I watched a similar thing happen there when I went to hear J.C Watts speak at the school. A Christian politician--the gay groups on campus--they were in an uproar --outraged before he opened his mouth. I watched a girl have to be led away from the Mike during Q&A because she was so upset--he is against gay marraige. She called him all kinds of things. As the school invited him--it was a bit embarassing all around. You could see the seething on her part.
You could see the glee on the pagans part--and the outrage that there was a distinction drawn between them and Christians as those welcome at the Chapel.
I live in a very very liberal and diverse place--college towns everywhere--I see Christians labeled as intolerant all the time.
It smacks of hypocrisy to me--if I don't accept pluralistic relativist truth--without even a conversation--I am labeled intolerant. So, if I am not living my faith correctly--it may be justified, but if I am--it is hypocritical.
I see it on these doctrinal threads as well. Non-Christians seem to say whatever they want about Christianity--and sometimes Christians--were I to get into what I believe about idolatry--the roof would come down on my head--notice I said what I, I, I, I, believe.
The concept of Hell bothers some--it runs contrary to THEIR thinking and therefore irritates.
No, seems the whole intolerance thing--is just a way of saying--you have to accept all faiths as legitimate--I can't make proclamations according to the bible--but we can trash the God of the bible.
That doesn't motivate me when people call God names.
AND YES-sometimes I really do agree with you on issues. You are well thought out and I appreciate that in a person. I also recognize true statements and logical thought.
This thread has been dancing around the issue of intolerance--I think it comes from non-christians a bit more readily than Christians.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Now, as far as viewing my faith as TRUE, I don't really expect that. I understand that about Christianity. What I object to is Christians who "invade my space" to make sure that I know that they think that I'm going to hell or whatever.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.