:) Thanks, Geisha. I appreciate your post. I disgree with your viewpoint, but I appreciate your explanation.
Your belief hinges on believing God as your interpret him to be in the Bible and upon accepting Jesus as lord in one's life for going to heaven. You present, although very nicely, the options of believing as you believe or going to hell (no matter how it's defined).
So, who, in your belief is going to hell? Atheists? Jews? Buddhists?
What if Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Christian, Jew, Pantheist, Mayan, etc. all actually believe in the same "Spirit" or "God"?
Belle,
Hi. Much like you--I rethought all my beliefs after TWI--do you know -- Hubby and I actually ran a Christian youth group--taught the kids---and I didn't believe there was a God. LOL I am not kidding.
Because of TWI--I don't tell people they are going to hell. It is not my call. God says that I am without excuse as the creation proclaims Him. What if someone never heard the name Jesus--but they believed on God?? So, I REALLY don't know--that is truly the Lord's call. I don't mind telling them where I think TWI was really messed up and the Orthodox understanding of salvation-. . . . . and all the rest.
I do believe that the bible is the truth, but CERTAINLY not because of TWI--in fact--I still will not use a King James version of the bible. I could tell you why I now believe it, but really--you are seeking these things out yourself-I am content to let you and Bramble-Abby and others walk your own path. When I talk about my faith--it is just that--mine.
I think people have the problem that some of us do believe it--and IT seems exclusionary---and because it doesn't mean truth to others---they may percieve us as exclusionary. Nothing I can do about that. I am head over heels in love with Jesus. I know Him to be good--beyond really. Hard to explain something so amazing to one who does not see it. I still care about people right now--and not just to "change" them. It is just in many of us--yourself(I suspect) included--to love!!
Your belief hinges on believing God as your interpret him to be in the Bible and upon accepting Jesus as lord in one's life for going to heaven. You present, although very nicely, the options of believing as you believe or going to hell (no matter how it's defined).
So, who, in your belief is going to hell? Atheists? Jews? Buddhists?
What if Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Christian, Jew, Pantheist, Mayan, etc. all actually believe in the same "Spirit" or "God"? [/color]
Belle, I think you miss the point. Again, a person is denied entrance into the kingdom of God because he is guilty of treason against God in rebellion and wickedness. And anyone who has walked any length of road on the spiritual journey to God with honest self-evaluation knows in his heart of hearts what a wicked sinner he is no matter how much he struggles and strains to reach complete obedience to God, he fails miserably. Complete obedience??? Ha!! Try even keeping half of God's commands with any type faithfulness throughout your life. The flesh is very staining and at many times, overpowering.
This is the reality of ALL the descendants of Adam. No matter what belief system people may wake up one day and find themselves following, they are all guilty of rebellion and evil against the true God and his neighbor. This is why Christianity is the only way because Jesus Christ is the only person who shed his innocent blood in my place therefore allowing me to walk away from God's judgment without perishing, which is what I deserve.
The fact that Mayans called their god by a name other than Yahweh or Elohim is irrelevant. Besides, those are Hebrew names which other nations across the world, naturally would not have been familiar with (at least in the time of the Mayans). What they "called" God was not important but what they practiced in his name was. A Mayan might have looked at you and said his god created all things. But if he turns around says that god commands that they offer human sacrifice, then it is clear that they are not following the true God. And in offering human sacrifice, they are guilty of crimes against God and humanity.
The Jews themselves had the "correct God" with His personal commandments and instruction. But that didn't matter to God. Just like the Mayans, what they called God was not important but what they practiced was. And they failed miserably. So have Buddhists, so have Hindus, so have Muslims and every other pagan society out there. Isn't that the point of Christ?
In spite of all man's wickedness, God just seems to have a soft spot for us. Look at the OT where we see God fighting for thousands of years, patiently working generation after generation waiting, looking, searching for men and women to trust and to teach and to love all to protect and preserve this bloodline that would lead to a man who would enable God to righteously withhold His wrath and show mercy to us all. Far from being a God of "intolerance", look at what great lengths He has gone to in order to freely give everlasting life to anyone who calls on Him. No wonder when people turn their noses up at God's offer there is no place for them in the kingdom.
What does it matter whether a person is a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist or anything else? It's all lame, it's all the works of the flesh and in the days of judging, it will not stand. It is clear to me that we are all wicked and none of us deserve any mercy and if someone doesn't conclude that about their own life, they need to seek the Lord for wisdom.
But God who is rich in mercy.... For God so loved the world....
If a member of a denomination/church/doctrinal belief declares that Your belief will send you to hell(either most certainly or probably) does it motivate you to change and join them in their beliefs? Do you take them seriously?
When I read a question like this, I think of Shellon's avatar pic. You know, the one that says
"Hahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha
No." :B)
Again, a person is denied entrance into the kingdom of God because he is guilty of treason against God in rebellion and wickedness. And anyone who has walked any length of road on the spiritual journey to God with honest self-evaluation knows in his heart of hearts what a wicked sinner he is no matter how much he struggles and strains to reach complete obedience to God, he fails miserably. Complete obedience??? Ha!! Try even keeping half of God's commands with any type faithfulness throughout your life. The flesh is very staining and at many times, overpowering.
Honest self-evaluation? ... Well let's see. ... Because of our fleshly limitations that is very staining and at many times, overpowering (a condition which we supposedly _cannot_ help), we are "guilty of treason against God in rebellion and wickedness" (treason being a condition reached thru deliberate design and follow thru), ... and such a condition is based upon our fleshly limitations (which we cannot help, remember?). ... And remember, said fleshly limitations are afflicted upon us due to Adam's and Eve's disobedience. ... Ie., _they_ do the 'crime', and _we_ do the time.
Please see my first answer above as to how I would respond to this idea also. :P
Let me preface my remarks by saying that nothing that I say in these types of threads should be interpreted as a disrespect for Christians or Christianity. I've seen many people turn their lives around and find real peace within the faith. However, that doesn't mean that I can't bring up things that I believe don't make sense, or be critical.
No, because I don't believe that the god that you describe and that is described in the bible exists.
To me, it's more like telling me that there's a car parked in my driveway that I cannot see no matter how hard I look. There's an owner's manual for the car, and even some people who swear that the car is there, but I still can't see it.
Bride, you are a bible believer, and it appears to work well for you. Your take on the biblical god is that he is "gracious". Me, I'm a polytheist, and believe that I can choose which gods to honor. The god as described by the fire & brimstone set is not a god that I choose to worship. Some aspects of the biblical god seem loving, gracious as you say, merciful and kind. Other aspects seem (to me) to be hateful and vindictive. I have a hard time reconciling the extremes.
So the whole "goin' to hell" thing does little to motivate me, and demotivates me.
Bramble, honey, my answer to question one and two in your topic thread is...no. I stand up and take notice of the Pharisees that spew that filthy religion. The love of God is so far removed from that.
Bramble, honey, my answer to question one and two in your topic thread is...no. I stand up and take notice of the Pharisees that spew that filthy religion. The love of God is so far removed from that.
Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"
Nooooo..... Brambles first question. That is what the Pharisees did to the Lord Jesus Christ. He didn't measure up to their beliefs, religion, and/or practice. He didn't let them convince Him otherwise.
I have no fear of hell, damnation, or fried okra. I knows.
Nooooo..... Brambles first question. That is what the Pharisees did to the Lord Jesus Christ. He didn't measure up to their beliefs, religion, and/or practice. He didn't let them convince Him otherwise.
I have no fear of hell, damnation, or fried okra. I knows.
Fried Okra could scare the hell right out of someone!
What's wrong with fried okra? It's one of the few vegetables my wife will eat! :D
But seriously, folks...
I would not take the threat of eternal damnation seriously, because I don't believe that's what the Bible speaks of. Part of the confusion comes from the fact that the KJV and other versions translate two different words as "hell." One means simply the state of being dead (Greek hades, Hebrew sheol) and the other is the Lake of Fire described in Revelation and other places (Greek gehenna). Everybody goes to sheol when they die, but it is not a place of consciousness. The Lake of Fire, on the other hand, is called the "second death" and is the place where the unrepentent will be ultimately cast. But what happens when you throw something in a fire? It burns up! The Bible speaks of the wicked being destroyed or annihilated, not endlessly tortured. (I know there are some verses that seem to refer to endless torment, but I won't derail the thread by getting into that. You can read about it here.) Sunesis was right - most of what people believe about "hell" comes from Dante's Inferno, not from the Bible.
In order to live eternally in conscious torment, God would have to grant them eternal life, but man does not have eternal life inherently. It is a gift from God, given to those that trust Christ. Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not present a choice between "eternal life in heaven" and "eternal life in conscious torment." The choice is between life and death. "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" (I John 5:11-12). "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
I tend to agree with those who have said that the love of God, and His amazing offer, motivated them far more than any threat - whether of torture or just death - ever could. Those who reject God don't believe in and therefore don't care that their end is death. But Jesus promised a bright new world, a restored earth, a life without evil, sadness, or death. "The meek shall inherit the earth" (Psalm 37:11; Matt. 5:5). And we don't have to be "good enough" because God paid the price with His own Son. That's motivation.
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Belle,
Hi. Much like you--I rethought all my beliefs after TWI--do you know -- Hubby and I actually ran a Christian youth group--taught the kids---and I didn't believe there was a God. LOL I am not kidding.
Because of TWI--I don't tell people they are going to hell. It is not my call. God says that I am without excuse as the creation proclaims Him. What if someone never heard the name Jesus--but they believed on God?? So, I REALLY don't know--that is truly the Lord's call. I don't mind telling them where I think TWI was really messed up and the Orthodox understanding of salvation-. . . . . and all the rest.
I do believe that the bible is the truth, but CERTAINLY not because of TWI--in fact--I still will not use a King James version of the bible. I could tell you why I now believe it, but really--you are seeking these things out yourself-I am content to let you and Bramble-Abby and others walk your own path. When I talk about my faith--it is just that--mine.
I think people have the problem that some of us do believe it--and IT seems exclusionary---and because it doesn't mean truth to others---they may percieve us as exclusionary. Nothing I can do about that. I am head over heels in love with Jesus. I know Him to be good--beyond really. Hard to explain something so amazing to one who does not see it. I still care about people right now--and not just to "change" them. It is just in many of us--yourself(I suspect) included--to love!!
:)
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OneWhoIsFree
Belle, I think you miss the point. Again, a person is denied entrance into the kingdom of God because he is guilty of treason against God in rebellion and wickedness. And anyone who has walked any length of road on the spiritual journey to God with honest self-evaluation knows in his heart of hearts what a wicked sinner he is no matter how much he struggles and strains to reach complete obedience to God, he fails miserably. Complete obedience??? Ha!! Try even keeping half of God's commands with any type faithfulness throughout your life. The flesh is very staining and at many times, overpowering.
This is the reality of ALL the descendants of Adam. No matter what belief system people may wake up one day and find themselves following, they are all guilty of rebellion and evil against the true God and his neighbor. This is why Christianity is the only way because Jesus Christ is the only person who shed his innocent blood in my place therefore allowing me to walk away from God's judgment without perishing, which is what I deserve.
The fact that Mayans called their god by a name other than Yahweh or Elohim is irrelevant. Besides, those are Hebrew names which other nations across the world, naturally would not have been familiar with (at least in the time of the Mayans). What they "called" God was not important but what they practiced in his name was. A Mayan might have looked at you and said his god created all things. But if he turns around says that god commands that they offer human sacrifice, then it is clear that they are not following the true God. And in offering human sacrifice, they are guilty of crimes against God and humanity.
The Jews themselves had the "correct God" with His personal commandments and instruction. But that didn't matter to God. Just like the Mayans, what they called God was not important but what they practiced was. And they failed miserably. So have Buddhists, so have Hindus, so have Muslims and every other pagan society out there. Isn't that the point of Christ?
In spite of all man's wickedness, God just seems to have a soft spot for us. Look at the OT where we see God fighting for thousands of years, patiently working generation after generation waiting, looking, searching for men and women to trust and to teach and to love all to protect and preserve this bloodline that would lead to a man who would enable God to righteously withhold His wrath and show mercy to us all. Far from being a God of "intolerance", look at what great lengths He has gone to in order to freely give everlasting life to anyone who calls on Him. No wonder when people turn their noses up at God's offer there is no place for them in the kingdom.
What does it matter whether a person is a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist or anything else? It's all lame, it's all the works of the flesh and in the days of judging, it will not stand. It is clear to me that we are all wicked and none of us deserve any mercy and if someone doesn't conclude that about their own life, they need to seek the Lord for wisdom.
But God who is rich in mercy.... For God so loved the world....
With all respect,
Free
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GarthP2000
"Hahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha
No." :B)
Honest self-evaluation? ... Well let's see. ... Because of our fleshly limitations that is very staining and at many times, overpowering (a condition which we supposedly _cannot_ help), we are "guilty of treason against God in rebellion and wickedness" (treason being a condition reached thru deliberate design and follow thru), ... and such a condition is based upon our fleshly limitations (which we cannot help, remember?). ... And remember, said fleshly limitations are afflicted upon us due to Adam's and Eve's disobedience. ... Ie., _they_ do the 'crime', and _we_ do the time.
Please see my first answer above as to how I would respond to this idea also. :P
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brideofjc
Hey Oakspear:
Hope these help!
Spectacles.bmp
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Oakspear
As long as none of the glasses are TWI-colored
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brideofjc
HOW DROLL!
I think this thread is dead! Oh Vey!
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kimberly
Bramble, honey, my answer to question one and two in your topic thread is...no. I stand up and take notice of the Pharisees that spew that filthy religion. The love of God is so far removed from that.
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geisha779
Matt 23:31-33 "Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?"
You mean like that filthy religion. Talk of hell?
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kimberly
Nooooo..... Brambles first question. That is what the Pharisees did to the Lord Jesus Christ. He didn't measure up to their beliefs, religion, and/or practice. He didn't let them convince Him otherwise.
I have no fear of hell, damnation, or fried okra. I knows.
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brideofjc
Fried Okra could scare the hell right out of someone!
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Mark Clarke
What's wrong with fried okra? It's one of the few vegetables my wife will eat! :D
But seriously, folks...
I would not take the threat of eternal damnation seriously, because I don't believe that's what the Bible speaks of. Part of the confusion comes from the fact that the KJV and other versions translate two different words as "hell." One means simply the state of being dead (Greek hades, Hebrew sheol) and the other is the Lake of Fire described in Revelation and other places (Greek gehenna). Everybody goes to sheol when they die, but it is not a place of consciousness. The Lake of Fire, on the other hand, is called the "second death" and is the place where the unrepentent will be ultimately cast. But what happens when you throw something in a fire? It burns up! The Bible speaks of the wicked being destroyed or annihilated, not endlessly tortured. (I know there are some verses that seem to refer to endless torment, but I won't derail the thread by getting into that. You can read about it here.) Sunesis was right - most of what people believe about "hell" comes from Dante's Inferno, not from the Bible.
In order to live eternally in conscious torment, God would have to grant them eternal life, but man does not have eternal life inherently. It is a gift from God, given to those that trust Christ. Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not present a choice between "eternal life in heaven" and "eternal life in conscious torment." The choice is between life and death. "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life" (I John 5:11-12). "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
I tend to agree with those who have said that the love of God, and His amazing offer, motivated them far more than any threat - whether of torture or just death - ever could. Those who reject God don't believe in and therefore don't care that their end is death. But Jesus promised a bright new world, a restored earth, a life without evil, sadness, or death. "The meek shall inherit the earth" (Psalm 37:11; Matt. 5:5). And we don't have to be "good enough" because God paid the price with His own Son. That's motivation.
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HAPe4me
I hope you are right. cuz otherwise I think I am gonna get it after tonight.
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Bramble
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