Geisha, the last few posts by you on the 'What makes a cult' thread seemed to me to be saying that all but orthodox, trinity believing Chrsitians are hell bound.
The verses you posted in this thread did nothing to change that perspective.
Geisha, the last few posts by you on the 'What makes a cult' thread seemed to me to be saying that all but orthodox, trinity believing Chrsitians are hell bound.
The verses you posted in this thread did nothing to change that perspective.
I wondered if fear of hell motivated people here.
Bramble,
I am going to explain this as clearly as I can to you and that is it--you clearly want to make a case about something--have at it and enjoy.
I used those references to defend a SIMPLE point my husband made. How Christians define a cult. It is about a deviation from the main doctrines of Christianity--the trinity being the main one. People didn't like that point. I explained it again. They still don't like it--surprize surprize--we were in a cult.
Doesn't change the fact that is how Christians define cults and how we were defined. I used a few differing denominations and examples to make my point. THAT BEING HOW CHRISTIANS DEFINE CULTS!!! You attributed the words of someone else to me. Then when I explained what I believe--you tell me I only want to deal with the "Nice" things. WHATEVER you say Bramble.
Seems dishonest to me and no way to debate an issue, but knock yourself out.
--while you are eschewing my elitist point of view--an absolute truth in the person of Jesus Christ--you are becomming that which you dislike--if there is no absolute truth--and anyone who disagrees with that is WRONG and an elitist. Are you not telling me what truth really is--there is none--and because I don't believe as YOU do--I am somehow misguided? Doesn't that make YOU the elitist.
Thanks for giving me a POV-explaining it and telling me I am wrong--Maybe you were just trying to enlighten me with the FACT there is not just one way--but many ways to God. Many Gods. That makes it your truth--I don't agree--so I don't "get" it. . . . . and you think that my point of view is narrow??
Enjoy your thread-- I am sure you will get lots of support for your truth.
I won't restate what You Geisha or WordWolf confirm from GOD's Word!
I believe it and support it because it is GOD's Word. I am a Christan!
If you study this strictly from every aspect of the Word of GOD itself, without preconceptions it is clearly and evidently seen.
GOD's Heart, His Plan, His Ways, His Thoughts are a Big job to study and to know, even when we have been studying for years as I have and most of us
here.
(((Bramble))), I am not motivated by fear of Hell, Eternal Damnation, the Lake of Fire or lack of Rewards at the Bema to Love God, to study His Word, and
do my best to understand keep it without adding to it or subtracting from it:
Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the
plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy
city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
I always knew I needed salvation I am a sinner; and that some things are true and some things are are false, and much is riddled with half truths and
mingled with lies. That is why I chose GOD. GOD doesn't change...mankind does!!! We are saved through GOD's Love and I believe that once saved always saved...so we will then be
gathered before the judgments, and only judged by Christ at the Bema
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a
preacher?
The reasons there are divisions among us all is plain: This is man's day, He has free will to believe whatever he pleases. He can have
many doctrines and practice them in whole or in part. Many think their doctrines are the only truth. Others think all doctrines are truth. GOD says he is the truth:
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truthcometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine unto them.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, [it] not [as] they
received the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
GOD seeks his own those called before the foundation of the world...Anyone else can believe as they please:
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Psa 25:5 Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou [art] the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.
Psa 100:5 For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues [like] their bow [for] lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they
proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
It won't matter to anyone what I think or what I believe; but to a Christian it matters what GOD thinks, Says and has written, about His Love, His Plan, Our
Redemption Salvation and Judgment and His Justice!!! GOD will eventually speak to us individually on all these matters..Yet now we have His Will and Testament on how He thinks on all
these matters!! ............me I am going with THAT until THEN!!!
1Cr 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an
interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Remember Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, They wouldn't bow and they didn't burn; and they did it out of Love for GOD as they did not know in advance if
GOD would save them from burning. GOD tells us His Plan now for Justice we can know it in advance and CHOSE; but only till GOD decides it is ended
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, [and] spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come
forth, and come [hither]. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
Dan 3:28 [Then] Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed [be] the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him,
and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
Dan 3:29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in
pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.
Geisha-- A just and loving God, who damns men to suffering for ALL ETERNITY for their sixty or seventy human years in the wrong church does not look just, loving or wise at all to me. He looks overly angry and punitive, the punishment looks like overkill, the great powerful omnipotent god against some puny mistaken human soul, who didn't even know they were wrong. Of course the all powerful god will win, but it makes him look like a villian who should be stopped.
I was talking about people who hold different religious doctrines, even different Christian doctrines--not ax murderers, or poisoners or the latest hitler.
Watered Garden, thank you for posting, it sounds like you have investigated the matter. I did not know of the varieties of beliefs you posted. I do know that not all Christianity is hellfire and brimstone, but not particulars.
Rumrunner, great quotes, not annoying or rude at all. Life is art without eraser, how very true, plus who knows when our candle blows out.
Heck, I've been damned since I was 18 by one church or another.
It's not whether a particular church condemns, it is the Scriptures that set the standard, at least IMO. Oft times, churches wield their own church doctrines that have developed over time and in some cases are not even close to the Scriptures. Some times when God brings some correction to "people's doctrines", sometimes the pendulum then swings the other way too far. But one day, the pendulum will swing correctly when the Lord Jesus Christ comes back to the earth and reigns. Will you be there? I hope you are. Sometimes, when irritation is present it is the Holy Spirit convicting and trying to move you in the correct direction. But be blessed indeed, if there is irritation/conviction, then this means that your conscience has not been seared.
It's not much of a choice when the "choice" is do what I say or you're toast! :o
Now if you're a Christian who doesn't believe in the traditional hell, and just believe that you return to dust when you die, then, okay, God is offering you a choice between the natural order of things, i.e. death and eternal life. In this scenario, unless God intervenes, you just stay dead. Quite different than the scenario where God created Hell, then sends you there if you don't fall into line. The first is either a rescue if you accept it, or no rescue if you don't. the second is reward if you accept it, a punishment if you don't.
I believe Bramble is talking specifiacally about the Christians who believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment.
That is exactly what the Scriptures do state, Oakspear. It is certainly everyone's choice on where they will spend eternity. TWI used to teach that you were only spiritual after you were born again. I do not believe so, everyone has a spirit, but if you are not born again, it is a dead spirit and thus cannot "hear" from the One True God. When the new birth occurs, the Holy Spirit enlivens your dead spirit and you become hence, "born again." But everyone has a choice. Why exactly wouldn't you wish to spend all eternity with such a gracious God? Because some people have not been able to express it correctly? Read the Scriptures for yourself. That's kind of like saying, "I don't like the color of the seats in that car, so I will just walk! Okay.
:unsure: I'm wondering if it's possible for those who believe in eternal damnation to understand where others are coming from?
I mean, we've been there ~ done that with quoting scripture and using "the word" as a foundation for our beliefs and, most likely, did believe that at one time. But, logically, it just does not make sense and does seem to be a manipulation tactic no matter how you spin it...or how light one tries to make the analogy.
"Why would you NOT want to make the simple choice to do what God says and avoid eternal damnation?"
The threat is still there.
IF God, as they say, is all loving, all knowing and all those chocolate covered good things - then HOW can he possibly allow his own creations to suffer an eternal damnation as they teach? And WHY do you want me to believe in a God that does? It baffles me and just quoting scripture to me is useless.
Geisha, for what it's worth, I think, perhaps, this medium may be a challenge for communication for you because I'm seeing the same things Oak and Bramble are in your posts on this thread. :) If what we're interpreting your message to be is wrong, please correct the message instead of scolding us for not understanding.
I do believe we see through a glass darkly and, just maybe, on the other side of that glass is a world none of us can imagine, but all of us will get to see.
Let me preface my remarks by saying that nothing that I say in these types of threads should be interpreted as a disrespect for Christians or Christianity. I've seen many people turn their lives around and find real peace within the faith. However, that doesn't mean that I can't bring up things that I believe don't make sense, or be critical.
Why exactly wouldn't you wish to spend all eternity with such a gracious God? Because some people have not been able to express it correctly?
No, because I don't believe that the god that you describe and that is described in the bible exists.
That's kind of like saying, "I don't like the color of the seats in that car, so I will just walk!
To me, it's more like telling me that there's a car parked in my driveway that I cannot see no matter how hard I look. There's an owner's manual for the car, and even some people who swear that the car is there, but I still can't see it.
Bride, you are a bible believer, and it appears to work well for you. Your take on the biblical god is that he is "gracious". Me, I'm a polytheist, and believe that I can choose which gods to honor. The god as described by the fire & brimstone set is not a god that I choose to worship. Some aspects of the biblical god seem loving, gracious as you say, merciful and kind. Other aspects seem (to me) to be hateful and vindictive. I have a hard time reconciling the extremes.
So the whole "goin' to hell" thing does little to motivate me, and demotivates me.
I think we sometimes look at this concept of hell from the wrong perspective.
Its not about us. Really, its not about you and me.
Its about God.
I think, he has told us, there is a day coming when he will dwell with mankind and his creation.
He tells us all of creation is in turmoil and waits for that day.
God is Holy, Righteous and Just.
I believe, the realm, or dimension, or whatever the new "creation" that he promises to create, will possibly require a different type of physical body than we have now.
In his home, there is no sin. As now, in the heavens where he dwells with his other creations, there is no sin. And they have different bodies. Bodies suitable for that habitat and state or dimension.
He has offered us Heaven.
He has offered us perfection.
He has offered us new bodies.
He has promised to make us a new creation.
Those who wish not to be with him and who are not born again cannot be "regenerated" so to speak, when we shall be changed into a new heavenly creation. They cannot be regenerated or changed because they have not Holy Spirit.
God offers us Heaven. He says you only need to do one thing - only ONE thing: believe in Him who he sent.
I think he has told us what's coming. Some don't like it, that's your perogative.
I think we humans are like tin soldiers. Thier owner says, I can make you alive! The tin soldiers are afraid of the new world, new body, to be a new creation, and say, no thanks.
I think from God's perspective, he's told us what's coming, took the time to come down to to die for us and bring us to Him. We may not like God's plan that Heaven and perfection are coming and that's fine.
God is Love. He cannot dwell in harmony with "not love." Not in his home.
If I have a house, and next door is a thief, will I invite him to dwell with me? Of course not.
God will not have his habitation the home of unrighteousness. He deals with it in Revelation.
I think of Hell, as a place where God is not.
God has honored your free will, you can be without him.
I shudder to think of a place without God and rampant unchecked egos running wild. I think those in that place will be able to see Him and see the glory they chose to forego. I think that's the cause of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Love of God/Hate for God, just two sides of the same coin.
Oh, did hell have any effect on me? No. When I didn't believe I could have cared less about it. It didn't even make me indignant. I didn't care, and wondered why anyone else would. It was much easier to believe I would be no more. I think it was the thought of living eternally, after I was born again that made me wonder about these things. It was love that got me born again, not hell.
Plus, our "vision" of hell has been grossly distorted by Dante's Inferno. His made up version of what he thought Hell should be. You should read it. Its amazing. Everything you've ever heard about hell springs from that man's imagination. Basically today, when people think of hell they are thinking of Dante and his medieval imagery, which is quite horrid.
Wowie Zowie. Apparantly Geish'a beliefs are nothing like I thought after reading her posts--sorry I misinterpreted. I was not posting out of malice.
Still I find the topic interesting, and the responses, too.
I do not personally believe in a god that damns others to Eternal suffering...my diety is like family, mother.
No hell was a HUGE selling point for me in getting into TWI, very liberating and a big relief in some ways. Of course, later I learned the rest of the story, about devils spirits under every dust peck and hell on earth as handed down by leadership...but that first 6 months, a year, very light time in life for me.
Even in college( I went to a catholic college) I questioned alot...quit doing that in TWI in favor of the renewed mind to power,
I doubt I would have ever gotten involved in the fire and brimstone type of Chrisitianity even if I hadn't got into TWI. I suspect I would have done what most of my cousins and siblings have done--be very lapsed Catholics or Mormons with a touch of New Agey. beliefs/superstitions.
Geisha, for what it's worth, I think, perhaps, this medium may be a challenge for communication for you because I'm seeing the same things Oak and Bramble are in your posts on this thread. :) If what we're interpreting your message to be is wrong, please correct the message instead of scolding us for not understanding.
I do believe we see through a glass darkly and, just maybe, on the other side of that glass is a world none of us can imagine, but all of us will get to see.
Hi Belle,
Thanks for asking. First let me say this to you--as I have always wanted to. I so enjoy your posts. Truly. I do understand you are evaluating everything you learned and I respect that. I also realise we may be opposite on many issuses--but I enjoy your wit and perspective. In fact, many times I have laughed right out loud at something you have said--probably muttered "you go girl"! You are a sharp cookie.
Having said that --feeling good to have been able to--I expressed what I believe, but will recap for you. My "Scolding" was not really so much that--as frustration for having my thoughts mischaracterized. But, it is a less than perfect medium and I am verbose. You can see my faith in the words of Sunesis--Bride--Rainbowgirl and a few others that post here--we have come to similar conclusions. I suspect they have a great deal more gray matter than I, but then again I am a blonde! :)
I believe that hell is the absence of God--much like Sunesis said--there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is Jesus who holds it all together now, all things are held together by the word of His power. --if He is absent?? It is gonna be hell.
I call it eternal judgment. God tells us now to choose. He makes it so simple-He has provided it all and offers us so much. In Matthew 7, He tells us of the two gates, the two paths, the two trees, the two foundations, and the two builders. We must choose which path--one leads to salvation(Jesus Christ) one leads to eternal destruction.
The bible says that God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son--it doesn't say God so Hated the world He sends us all to hell.
Sounds to me like-----although He is just He tempers that justice with incredible mercy.
I think He says He wants none to perish, but all to come to repentance ?
He gives us the choice where to spend eternity. Freewill. He offers us gifts--love--mercy--eternity--kindness-salvation--inheritance--hope--freedom and grace.
He offers us healing and wholeness. He offers us Himself--with all His glory--He even offers us glory. He prepares a place for us to dwell with Him in eternity--He will always take us back. He loves us while we sin--He offers to commune with us--to dwell with us now. He offers us peace--He offers His strength. He offers His heart--He offers us a kingdom? He EVEN offers us the FAITH to believe it all.
What does He ask in return? That we believe on His Son--that worthy sacrifice. He will not make that void--for some--it is for all, but, that was the price paid and that is the Way. Jesus. The true gate, path, foundation, builder, He is the Way.
If you reject this--isn't that your choice? Just pretend for a moment that it is true--the God of the bible is
it. He is creator--isn't how he set redemption up-- His way?
I can understand the pain TWI caused. If you believe nothing else--believe me when I say I GET IT! I would not wish my experiences on anybody. But, He turned it to good. He can do that--mean it for good.
The deep abiding tender love of God--should not be rejected out of hand. If He is real--what else are we following after? Where will our own path lead?
I understand TWI but what if that wasn't really Christianity and we are judging God on our experiences with people and not on Jesus Himself?
Wouldn't that be a shame? We--ME--all of us --our wise in our own eyes--HE is wisdom and He is good. And He loves you.
God does NOT require you to be a member of a certain church or denomination--He meets you right where you are--you don't have to be perfect or even good--all He requires of you is to believe on His Son-Jesus Christ. When you see His goodness you repent of your sins--it is all Him--He asks so little and offers so much.
Now--when we confess Him as LORD--He has the right to demand our obedience--but then again--how we trip over ourselves to please Him when we see His goodness and true mercy--it is not a burden to obey and it is always the right way--because we are flesh--it can be a struggle within ourselves--but He provides the grace and strength.
God really is love and in Him is no darkness- in us there is a bit. I can't imagine pronouncing judgement on such a loving God. Calling Him something He is not--He tells us all over the place--to watch our words and be less verbose--I think that is because we tend to prattle on about things we don't fully understand--like a God who is Just-Righteous, and Holy. He HAS to be all that--He is good.
Our idea of good--should be modeled after His--not our own vain imagination--which can come up with all kinds of paths. He made it so very simple. Yet we struggle against Him so hard.
He STILL loves us and calls us in mercy and grace!
BRAMBLE,I have ALWAYS wanted to share this link with you--but have been a bit afraid because I don't want you to think I am proselytizing you. Perhaps Oakspear might be interested as well. You do NOT have to be a Christian to post there. In FACT, Wiccans are protected from Christian "Fire and Brimestone" preaching.It is a great place for Wiccans and Christians to meet up and discuss issues. It is a busy forum. It is NOT a place people seek to convert you. It is a fairly honest forum with some great discussions.It is run by ex-witches who are now Christians--but they do NOT judge you for still practicing Wicca.I just always thought you might like it--you have a unique perspective--having left a pseudo-christian cult--and embraced Wicca. So please take it in the spirit it is offered. A friendly one.You may be familar with it--I don't know--but the rules are very interesting and are laid out to allow you the freedom to post your beliefs. Let me know if you liked it? I have not been there in a year or so--hope it is still up and going?http://www.exwitch.org/index.php
Thanks for the offer, geisha, but it is a proselytizing site with top goal of changing pagans into Chrisitans. I have absolutely no interest in involving myself anywhere that has an agenda to change me into something else. I am comfortable at GSC because people come from all different directions, adn there is no one agenda.
Copied from site:
ExWitch exists to accomplish the following goals:
win Pagans and occultists to faith in Jesus Christ
disciple any Christians in the ministry’s sphere of influence
educate Pagans, the Church, and the public about the occult in a fair, truthful manner
equip the Church to do the same work
encourage cooperation between like-minded ministries and organizations
I know in your mind you are offering me a lifeline, and I am well aware I could go to any number of churches and get lots of attention by converting. Since I do not believe in the Bible as the Word of God, in an omnipotent god, in the creation story, in the Fall of Man, in the need for a savior, or in the fact that a savior actually came, in one true belief, I would only be subjecting myself to it in order to please someone else.
I'm sure you would find a site that declares its intent to change you from a Chrisitan to a pagan quite disturbing.
Interesting site, and I will look it over when I have more time, butI disagree that I would not be judged...my chosen faith is called bondage. Sounds like judgement to me.
FYI from a common pagan viewpoint, proselytizing is seen as basically disrespectful-- 'Learn of my superior beliefs and leave your inferior ones behind'.
Also, seeking is of high importance to many pagans--you seek to find your truth so it is genuine, not accept anothers because they want you too, which could wrap you up in a belief that is not really genuine to you.
When someone presents their beliefs(and I am not saying you have done this) as the spiritual eqivalent to the cure for cancer, that has the unfortunate result of painting another's beliefs as the cancer. For those on the 'cancer' side, it is uncomfortable and frustrating, and sometimes scary.
Geisha Said: "Having said that --feeling good to have been able to--I expressed what I believe, but will recap for you. My "Scolding" was not really so much
that--as frustration for having my thoughts mischaracterized.But, it is a less than perfect medium and I am verbose. You can see my faith in the words of Sunesis--Bride--
Rainbowgirl and a few others that post here--we have come to similar conclusions. I suspect they have a great deal more gray matter than I, but then again I am a blonde! "
Geisha, I am very honored by your compliment, but I would have to come along way to measure up with the caliber of people You so lovingly placed me in!
I am awed that You pour your beautiful heart out to the en th degree in each and every one of Your posted...You just exude Love and I am proud to know
You! GOD Bless, You for Your Great Love and kindness!!!
(Incidentally, I am sure GOD and Jesus Christ enjoy Your posts even more than I do!!!)
but mostly Our Hearts with true Understanding, Love and Compassion!!! The Respect and Listening really shows in this Thread. It seems that we All took the time to read one another's
well thought out posts and then stopped a while and deliberately thought over our responses, because we Love and respect each other so much!!! It's awesomely beautiful to see and be
part of a thread where we All went the extra mile and made these efforts!!! Thank You!!!!!!
If a member of a denomination/church/doctrinal belief declares that Your belief will send you to hell(either most certainly or probably) does it motivate you to change and join them in their beliefs? Do you take them seriously?
Absolutely not.
I am confident that I have studied the Word long enough on my own to know that simply having an attitude of trust in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what moves God's heart to have mercy on someone and to create them to be a child of His.
What makes a man guilty to be thrown into the flames is his own wickedness and the sins he has brought forth in this life, not how much he knows about God (or more accurately, what he thinks he knows about God).
I would say that I know quite a bit about God. But that statement is always relative because that may be true compared to the man standing next to me on the street, but the scripture says that "no man knows what he ought to know" and we all "see through a dark glass".
Whatever a person thinks he knows about the Word is to be held with confidence, yet always ready to change in light of new understanding. This is meekness, and it is clear that nobody holds all the truth. Where you are with God in your understanding right now is where you are. If I ask you 20 years from now what you think about God, I'll bet you your understanding is much different (at least if you continue trying to grow). For someone to conclude that what they hold as the truth is so right on that he will harass, threaten and even murder fellow believers is insanity (church fathers hunting down "heretics").
A person doesn't perish because he believes or does not believe in the Trinity. Nor do they perish because they believe the dead are truly dead or because they believe they go to be in heaven immediately. A man perishes because he must answer for his wickedness, his crimes against God and humanity. Believing the dead are truly dead will not help you out in this situation. Only having the atonement of Christ's shed blood gets you off the hook. And this is appropriated to you only by trusting in the Lordship of Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead.
So when I hear people say, "believe in the Trinity or you are a heretic and will burn in hell", I confidently roll my eyes and say, "whatever dude."
I am confident that I have studied the Word long enough on my own to know that simply having an attitude of trust in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what moves God's heart to have mercy on someone and to create them to be a child of His.
Then prepare to have youir bubble busted.
What makes a man guilty to be thrown into the flames is his own wickedness and the sins he has brought forth in this life, not how much he knows about God (or more accurately, what he thinks he knows about God).
And that would include you.
I would say that I know quite a bit about God. But that statement is always relative because that may be true compared to the man standing next to me on the street, but the scripture says that "no man knows what he ought to know" and we all "see through a dark glass".
I would say you don't by what you have stated in this post.
But it's not just you but most that fail at Christianity.
It's the 'saved' or not that stinks among many.
And has me refusing to say I am with such nonsense as there is in it.
And I'm not just singling you out, OneWhoIsFree.
But just to point out a few things.
Cause the fire of God is not what you think, probably.
To look at the burning bush that doesn't burn.
To lay hold of the Flaming Sword that turns EVERY WAY.
:) Thanks, Geisha. I appreciate your post. I disgree with your viewpoint, but I appreciate your explanation.
Your belief hinges on believing God as your interpret him to be in the Bible and upon accepting Jesus as lord in one's life for going to heaven. You present, although very nicely, the options of believing as you believe or going to hell (no matter how it's defined).
So, who, in your belief is going to hell? Atheists? Jews? Buddhists?
What if Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Christian, Jew, Pantheist, Mayan, etc. all actually believe in the same "Spirit" or "God"?
What if it's ALL bullsheet and you're all arguing over whose Tinkerbell is the REAL one? (which seems like the MOST likely scenario to me [but, then, for me it WOULD])
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Bramble
Geisha, the last few posts by you on the 'What makes a cult' thread seemed to me to be saying that all but orthodox, trinity believing Chrsitians are hell bound.
The verses you posted in this thread did nothing to change that perspective.
I wondered if fear of hell motivated people here.
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geisha779
Bramble,
I am going to explain this as clearly as I can to you and that is it--you clearly want to make a case about something--have at it and enjoy.
I used those references to defend a SIMPLE point my husband made. How Christians define a cult. It is about a deviation from the main doctrines of Christianity--the trinity being the main one. People didn't like that point. I explained it again. They still don't like it--surprize surprize--we were in a cult.
Doesn't change the fact that is how Christians define cults and how we were defined. I used a few differing denominations and examples to make my point. THAT BEING HOW CHRISTIANS DEFINE CULTS!!! You attributed the words of someone else to me. Then when I explained what I believe--you tell me I only want to deal with the "Nice" things. WHATEVER you say Bramble.
Seems dishonest to me and no way to debate an issue, but knock yourself out.
--while you are eschewing my elitist point of view--an absolute truth in the person of Jesus Christ--you are becomming that which you dislike--if there is no absolute truth--and anyone who disagrees with that is WRONG and an elitist. Are you not telling me what truth really is--there is none--and because I don't believe as YOU do--I am somehow misguided? Doesn't that make YOU the elitist.
Thanks for giving me a POV-explaining it and telling me I am wrong--Maybe you were just trying to enlighten me with the FACT there is not just one way--but many ways to God. Many Gods. That makes it your truth--I don't agree--so I don't "get" it. . . . . and you think that my point of view is narrow??
Enjoy your thread-- I am sure you will get lots of support for your truth.
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RainbowsGirl
I won't restate what You Geisha or WordWolf confirm from GOD's Word!
I believe it and support it because it is GOD's Word. I am a Christan!
If you study this strictly from every aspect of the Word of GOD itself, without preconceptions it is clearly and evidently seen.
GOD's Heart, His Plan, His Ways, His Thoughts are a Big job to study and to know, even when we have been studying for years as I have and most of us
here.
(((Bramble))), I am not motivated by fear of Hell, Eternal Damnation, the Lake of Fire or lack of Rewards at the Bema to Love God, to study His Word, and
do my best to understand keep it without adding to it or subtracting from it:
Rev 22:18 ¶ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the
plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy
city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
I always knew I needed salvation
I am a sinner; and that some things are true and some things are are false, and much is riddled with half truths and
mingled with lies. That is why I chose GOD. GOD doesn't change...mankind does!!! We are saved through GOD's Love and I believe that once saved always saved...so we will then be
gathered before the judgments, and only judged by Christ at the Bema
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a
preacher?
The reasons there are divisions among us all is plain: This is man's day, He has free will to believe whatever he pleases. He can have
many doctrines and practice them in whole or in part. Many think their doctrines are the only truth. Others think all doctrines are truth. GOD says he is the truth:
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God,
should shine unto them.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, [it] not [as] they
received the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
GOD seeks his own those called before the foundation of the world...Anyone else can believe as they please:
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Psa 25:5 Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou [art] the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.
Psa 100:5 For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.
Jer 9:3 And they bend their tongues [like] their bow [for] lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they
proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
It won't matter to anyone what I think or what I believe; but to a Christian it matters what GOD thinks, Says and has written, about His Love, His Plan, Our
Redemption Salvation and Judgment and His Justice!!! GOD will eventually speak to us individually on all these matters..Yet now we have His Will and Testament on how He thinks on all
these matters!! ............me I am going with THAT until THEN!!!
1Cr 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an
interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Remember Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, They wouldn't bow and they didn't burn; and they did it out of Love for GOD as they did not know in advance if
GOD would save them from burning. GOD tells us His Plan now for Justice we can know it in advance and CHOSE; but only till GOD decides it is ended
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, [and] spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come
forth, and come [hither]. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
Dan 3:28 [Then] Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed [be] the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him,
and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
Dan 3:29 Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in
pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.
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brideofjc
It's not whether a particular church condemns, it is the Scriptures that set the standard, at least IMO. Oft times, churches wield their own church doctrines that have developed over time and in some cases are not even close to the Scriptures. Some times when God brings some correction to "people's doctrines", sometimes the pendulum then swings the other way too far. But one day, the pendulum will swing correctly when the Lord Jesus Christ comes back to the earth and reigns. Will you be there? I hope you are. Sometimes, when irritation is present it is the Holy Spirit convicting and trying to move you in the correct direction. But be blessed indeed, if there is irritation/conviction, then this means that your conscience has not been seared.
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brideofjc
That is exactly what the Scriptures do state, Oakspear. It is certainly everyone's choice on where they will spend eternity. TWI used to teach that you were only spiritual after you were born again. I do not believe so, everyone has a spirit, but if you are not born again, it is a dead spirit and thus cannot "hear" from the One True God. When the new birth occurs, the Holy Spirit enlivens your dead spirit and you become hence, "born again." But everyone has a choice. Why exactly wouldn't you wish to spend all eternity with such a gracious God? Because some people have not been able to express it correctly? Read the Scriptures for yourself. That's kind of like saying, "I don't like the color of the seats in that car, so I will just walk! Okay.
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brideofjc
Let's see, CMan....that would kinda make you god, wouldn't it?
And you said you were moving up in "church world" in some other thread...
what kind of church do you go to that believes and holds that doctrine?
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Belle
:unsure: I'm wondering if it's possible for those who believe in eternal damnation to understand where others are coming from?
I mean, we've been there ~ done that with quoting scripture and using "the word" as a foundation for our beliefs and, most likely, did believe that at one time. But, logically, it just does not make sense and does seem to be a manipulation tactic no matter how you spin it...or how light one tries to make the analogy.
"Why would you NOT want to make the simple choice to do what God says and avoid eternal damnation?"
The threat is still there.
IF God, as they say, is all loving, all knowing and all those chocolate covered good things - then HOW can he possibly allow his own creations to suffer an eternal damnation as they teach? And WHY do you want me to believe in a God that does? It baffles me and just quoting scripture to me is useless.
Geisha, for what it's worth, I think, perhaps, this medium may be a challenge for communication for you because I'm seeing the same things Oak and Bramble are in your posts on this thread. :) If what we're interpreting your message to be is wrong, please correct the message instead of scolding us for not understanding.
I do believe we see through a glass darkly and, just maybe, on the other side of that glass is a world none of us can imagine, but all of us will get to see.
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Oakspear
Lunch break!
Bride:
Let me preface my remarks by saying that nothing that I say in these types of threads should be interpreted as a disrespect for Christians or Christianity. I've seen many people turn their lives around and find real peace within the faith. However, that doesn't mean that I can't bring up things that I believe don't make sense, or be critical.
No, because I don't believe that the god that you describe and that is described in the bible exists. To me, it's more like telling me that there's a car parked in my driveway that I cannot see no matter how hard I look. There's an owner's manual for the car, and even some people who swear that the car is there, but I still can't see it.Bride, you are a bible believer, and it appears to work well for you. Your take on the biblical god is that he is "gracious". Me, I'm a polytheist, and believe that I can choose which gods to honor. The god as described by the fire & brimstone set is not a god that I choose to worship. Some aspects of the biblical god seem loving, gracious as you say, merciful and kind. Other aspects seem (to me) to be hateful and vindictive. I have a hard time reconciling the extremes.
So the whole "goin' to hell" thing does little to motivate me, and demotivates me.
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Sunesis
I think we sometimes look at this concept of hell from the wrong perspective.
Its not about us. Really, its not about you and me.
Its about God.
I think, he has told us, there is a day coming when he will dwell with mankind and his creation.
He tells us all of creation is in turmoil and waits for that day.
God is Holy, Righteous and Just.
I believe, the realm, or dimension, or whatever the new "creation" that he promises to create, will possibly require a different type of physical body than we have now.
In his home, there is no sin. As now, in the heavens where he dwells with his other creations, there is no sin. And they have different bodies. Bodies suitable for that habitat and state or dimension.
He has offered us Heaven.
He has offered us perfection.
He has offered us new bodies.
He has promised to make us a new creation.
Those who wish not to be with him and who are not born again cannot be "regenerated" so to speak, when we shall be changed into a new heavenly creation. They cannot be regenerated or changed because they have not Holy Spirit.
God offers us Heaven. He says you only need to do one thing - only ONE thing: believe in Him who he sent.
I think he has told us what's coming. Some don't like it, that's your perogative.
I think we humans are like tin soldiers. Thier owner says, I can make you alive! The tin soldiers are afraid of the new world, new body, to be a new creation, and say, no thanks.
I think from God's perspective, he's told us what's coming, took the time to come down to to die for us and bring us to Him. We may not like God's plan that Heaven and perfection are coming and that's fine.
God is Love. He cannot dwell in harmony with "not love." Not in his home.
If I have a house, and next door is a thief, will I invite him to dwell with me? Of course not.
God will not have his habitation the home of unrighteousness. He deals with it in Revelation.
I think of Hell, as a place where God is not.
God has honored your free will, you can be without him.
I shudder to think of a place without God and rampant unchecked egos running wild. I think those in that place will be able to see Him and see the glory they chose to forego. I think that's the cause of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Love of God/Hate for God, just two sides of the same coin.
Oh, did hell have any effect on me? No. When I didn't believe I could have cared less about it. It didn't even make me indignant. I didn't care, and wondered why anyone else would. It was much easier to believe I would be no more. I think it was the thought of living eternally, after I was born again that made me wonder about these things. It was love that got me born again, not hell.
Plus, our "vision" of hell has been grossly distorted by Dante's Inferno. His made up version of what he thought Hell should be. You should read it. Its amazing. Everything you've ever heard about hell springs from that man's imagination. Basically today, when people think of hell they are thinking of Dante and his medieval imagery, which is quite horrid.
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Bramble
Wowie Zowie. Apparantly Geish'a beliefs are nothing like I thought after reading her posts--sorry I misinterpreted. I was not posting out of malice.
Still I find the topic interesting, and the responses, too.
I do not personally believe in a god that damns others to Eternal suffering...my diety is like family, mother.
No hell was a HUGE selling point for me in getting into TWI, very liberating and a big relief in some ways. Of course, later I learned the rest of the story, about devils spirits under every dust peck and hell on earth as handed down by leadership...but that first 6 months, a year, very light time in life for me.
Even in college( I went to a catholic college) I questioned alot...quit doing that in TWI in favor of the renewed mind to power,
I doubt I would have ever gotten involved in the fire and brimstone type of Chrisitianity even if I hadn't got into TWI. I suspect I would have done what most of my cousins and siblings have done--be very lapsed Catholics or Mormons with a touch of New Agey. beliefs/superstitions.
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cman
Kind of funny how you hear bride.
Nevertheless, even with the scriptures WordWolf quoted.
The unseen things are what we are to look at.
And that's funny too.
To be honest, I'd say, just from what I've seen.
The scriptires were not meant to be interpreted by men.
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geisha779
Hi Belle,
Thanks for asking. First let me say this to you--as I have always wanted to. I so enjoy your posts. Truly. I do understand you are evaluating everything you learned and I respect that. I also realise we may be opposite on many issuses--but I enjoy your wit and perspective. In fact, many times I have laughed right out loud at something you have said--probably muttered "you go girl"! You are a sharp cookie.
Having said that --feeling good to have been able to--I expressed what I believe, but will recap for you. My "Scolding" was not really so much that--as frustration for having my thoughts mischaracterized. But, it is a less than perfect medium and I am verbose. You can see my faith in the words of Sunesis--Bride--Rainbowgirl and a few others that post here--we have come to similar conclusions. I suspect they have a great deal more gray matter than I, but then again I am a blonde! :)
I believe that hell is the absence of God--much like Sunesis said--there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is Jesus who holds it all together now, all things are held together by the word of His power. --if He is absent?? It is gonna be hell.
I call it eternal judgment. God tells us now to choose. He makes it so simple-He has provided it all and offers us so much. In Matthew 7, He tells us of the two gates, the two paths, the two trees, the two foundations, and the two builders. We must choose which path--one leads to salvation(Jesus Christ) one leads to eternal destruction.
The bible says that God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son--it doesn't say God so Hated the world He sends us all to hell.
Sounds to me like-----although He is just He tempers that justice with incredible mercy.
I think He says He wants none to perish, but all to come to repentance ?
He gives us the choice where to spend eternity. Freewill. He offers us gifts--love--mercy--eternity--kindness-salvation--inheritance--hope--freedom and grace.
He offers us healing and wholeness. He offers us Himself--with all His glory--He even offers us glory. He prepares a place for us to dwell with Him in eternity--He will always take us back. He loves us while we sin--He offers to commune with us--to dwell with us now. He offers us peace--He offers His strength. He offers His heart--He offers us a kingdom? He EVEN offers us the FAITH to believe it all.
What does He ask in return? That we believe on His Son--that worthy sacrifice. He will not make that void--for some--it is for all, but, that was the price paid and that is the Way. Jesus. The true gate, path, foundation, builder, He is the Way.
If you reject this--isn't that your choice? Just pretend for a moment that it is true--the God of the bible is
it. He is creator--isn't how he set redemption up-- His way?
I can understand the pain TWI caused. If you believe nothing else--believe me when I say I GET IT! I would not wish my experiences on anybody. But, He turned it to good. He can do that--mean it for good.
The deep abiding tender love of God--should not be rejected out of hand. If He is real--what else are we following after? Where will our own path lead?
I understand TWI but what if that wasn't really Christianity and we are judging God on our experiences with people and not on Jesus Himself?
Wouldn't that be a shame? We--ME--all of us --our wise in our own eyes--HE is wisdom and He is good. And He loves you.
God does NOT require you to be a member of a certain church or denomination--He meets you right where you are--you don't have to be perfect or even good--all He requires of you is to believe on His Son-Jesus Christ. When you see His goodness you repent of your sins--it is all Him--He asks so little and offers so much.
Now--when we confess Him as LORD--He has the right to demand our obedience--but then again--how we trip over ourselves to please Him when we see His goodness and true mercy--it is not a burden to obey and it is always the right way--because we are flesh--it can be a struggle within ourselves--but He provides the grace and strength.
God really is love and in Him is no darkness- in us there is a bit. I can't imagine pronouncing judgement on such a loving God. Calling Him something He is not--He tells us all over the place--to watch our words and be less verbose--I think that is because we tend to prattle on about things we don't fully understand--like a God who is Just-Righteous, and Holy. He HAS to be all that--He is good.
Our idea of good--should be modeled after His--not our own vain imagination--which can come up with all kinds of paths. He made it so very simple. Yet we struggle against Him so hard.
He STILL loves us and calls us in mercy and grace!
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geisha779
BRAMBLE,I have ALWAYS wanted to share this link with you--but have been a bit afraid because I don't want you to think I am proselytizing you. Perhaps Oakspear might be interested as well. You do NOT have to be a Christian to post there. In FACT, Wiccans are protected from Christian "Fire and Brimestone" preaching.It is a great place for Wiccans and Christians to meet up and discuss issues. It is a busy forum. It is NOT a place people seek to convert you. It is a fairly honest forum with some great discussions.It is run by ex-witches who are now Christians--but they do NOT judge you for still practicing Wicca.I just always thought you might like it--you have a unique perspective--having left a pseudo-christian cult--and embraced Wicca. So please take it in the spirit it is offered. A friendly one.You may be familar with it--I don't know--but the rules are very interesting and are laid out to allow you the freedom to post your beliefs. Let me know if you liked it? I have not been there in a year or so--hope it is still up and going?http://www.exwitch.org/index.php
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Bramble
Thanks for the offer, geisha, but it is a proselytizing site with top goal of changing pagans into Chrisitans. I have absolutely no interest in involving myself anywhere that has an agenda to change me into something else. I am comfortable at GSC because people come from all different directions, adn there is no one agenda.
Copied from site:
ExWitch exists to accomplish the following goals:
I know in your mind you are offering me a lifeline, and I am well aware I could go to any number of churches and get lots of attention by converting. Since I do not believe in the Bible as the Word of God, in an omnipotent god, in the creation story, in the Fall of Man, in the need for a savior, or in the fact that a savior actually came, in one true belief, I would only be subjecting myself to it in order to please someone else.
I'm sure you would find a site that declares its intent to change you from a Chrisitan to a pagan quite disturbing.
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Bramble
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Oakspear
Interesting site, and I will look it over when I have more time, butI disagree that I would not be judged...my chosen faith is called bondage. Sounds like judgement to me.
Thanks for the link anyway.
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Bramble
FYI from a common pagan viewpoint, proselytizing is seen as basically disrespectful-- 'Learn of my superior beliefs and leave your inferior ones behind'.
Also, seeking is of high importance to many pagans--you seek to find your truth so it is genuine, not accept anothers because they want you too, which could wrap you up in a belief that is not really genuine to you.
When someone presents their beliefs(and I am not saying you have done this) as the spiritual eqivalent to the cure for cancer, that has the unfortunate result of painting another's beliefs as the cancer. For those on the 'cancer' side, it is uncomfortable and frustrating, and sometimes scary.
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RainbowsGirl
Dear (((((Geisha)))),
Geisha Said: "Having said that --feeling good to have been able to--I expressed what I believe, but will recap for you. My "Scolding" was not really so much
that--as frustration for having my thoughts mischaracterized. But, it is a less than perfect medium and I am verbose. You can see my faith in the words of Sunesis--Bride--
Rainbowgirl and a few others that post here--we have come to similar conclusions. I suspect they have a great deal more gray matter than I, but then again I am a blonde! "
Geisha, I am very honored by your compliment, but I would have to come along way to measure up with the caliber of people You so lovingly placed me in!
I am awed that You pour your beautiful heart out to the en th degree in each and every one of Your posted...You just exude Love and I am proud to know
You! GOD Bless, You for Your Great Love and kindness!!!
(Incidentally, I am sure GOD and Jesus Christ enjoy Your posts even more than I do!!!)
((((Bramble)))), I am sorry for disrupting the topic
to say this; but this thread kind of feels like we are all sitting in a café, sharing coffee or drinks,
but mostly Our Hearts with true Understanding, Love and Compassion!!! The Respect and Listening really shows in this Thread. It seems that we All took the time to read one another's
well thought out posts and then stopped a while and deliberately thought over our responses, because we Love and respect each other so much!!! It's awesomely beautiful to see and be
part of a thread where we All went the extra mile and made these efforts!!! Thank You!!!!!!
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Bramble
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OneWhoIsFree
Absolutely not.
I am confident that I have studied the Word long enough on my own to know that simply having an attitude of trust in the Lordship and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what moves God's heart to have mercy on someone and to create them to be a child of His.
What makes a man guilty to be thrown into the flames is his own wickedness and the sins he has brought forth in this life, not how much he knows about God (or more accurately, what he thinks he knows about God).
I would say that I know quite a bit about God. But that statement is always relative because that may be true compared to the man standing next to me on the street, but the scripture says that "no man knows what he ought to know" and we all "see through a dark glass".
Whatever a person thinks he knows about the Word is to be held with confidence, yet always ready to change in light of new understanding. This is meekness, and it is clear that nobody holds all the truth. Where you are with God in your understanding right now is where you are. If I ask you 20 years from now what you think about God, I'll bet you your understanding is much different (at least if you continue trying to grow). For someone to conclude that what they hold as the truth is so right on that he will harass, threaten and even murder fellow believers is insanity (church fathers hunting down "heretics").
A person doesn't perish because he believes or does not believe in the Trinity. Nor do they perish because they believe the dead are truly dead or because they believe they go to be in heaven immediately. A man perishes because he must answer for his wickedness, his crimes against God and humanity. Believing the dead are truly dead will not help you out in this situation. Only having the atonement of Christ's shed blood gets you off the hook. And this is appropriated to you only by trusting in the Lordship of Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead.
So when I hear people say, "believe in the Trinity or you are a heretic and will burn in hell", I confidently roll my eyes and say, "whatever dude."
<_<
Free
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cman
And that would include you.
I would say you don't by what you have stated in this post.
But it's not just you but most that fail at Christianity.
It's the 'saved' or not that stinks among many.
And has me refusing to say I am with such nonsense as there is in it.
And I'm not just singling you out, OneWhoIsFree.
But just to point out a few things.
Cause the fire of God is not what you think, probably.
To look at the burning bush that doesn't burn.
To lay hold of the Flaming Sword that turns EVERY WAY.
For we must all pass through the fire.
This fire is God as much as Christ is.
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Belle
:) Thanks, Geisha. I appreciate your post. I disgree with your viewpoint, but I appreciate your explanation.
Your belief hinges on believing God as your interpret him to be in the Bible and upon accepting Jesus as lord in one's life for going to heaven. You present, although very nicely, the options of believing as you believe or going to hell (no matter how it's defined).
So, who, in your belief is going to hell? Atheists? Jews? Buddhists?
What if Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Christian, Jew, Pantheist, Mayan, etc. all actually believe in the same "Spirit" or "God"?
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Bramble
What if "God" is fractaled on our human plane into myriad pictures of what love, diety, spirit, are?
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George Aar
OR,
What if it's ALL bullsheet and you're all arguing over whose Tinkerbell is the REAL one? (which seems like the MOST likely scenario to me [but, then, for me it WOULD])
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