If a member of a denomination/church/doctrinal belief declares that Your belief will send you to hell(either most certainly or probably) does it motivate you to change and join them in their beliefs? Do you take them seriously?
I don't believe in Hell in the afterlife, so such declarations just irritate me.
I also think that the fear of hell lost alot of power when the church no longer had the military might to go after the heretics.
Fear motivation seems unloving to me, especially when those condemned to hell are not leaving evil lives(aren't murderers, child rapists etc), just hold different doctrinal beliefs or belong to different religions.
I tend to lose respect for those who hold to Eternal damnation for You type believers because it seems to be an obvious manipulation similar in a way to TWI's WHat about your children, you'll be outside the hedge of protection if you leave TWI.
I don't in fact see anything positive about the condemned to hell belief, except that it could make the one who hodls the 'correct' belief feel good.
Why on earth would it irritate you if you don't believe in it? It is in the bible and part of the Christian faith. Doesn't that just make you intolerant to those of another faith. I mean really--if it is not true--what do you care?
Lose respect all you want. . . . you may be limiting yourself to some very nice people who happen to believe there is eternal judgement. I myself don't limit the people I love because they are Wiccan or have practiced wicthcraft.
Gotta go help my mom move into assited care today--she has lived with me for the past 13 years--did I mention she was a practicing witch my whole life??
I am a first generation Christian-- I believe God is just and does not lie.
Just to add: One of the reasons I am moving my mom to a place where she can get round the clock care--is because I am afraid she will burn my house down. She is STILL burning little pieces of paper in candles---I don't tell her she is going to HELL--I tell her to stop because she is careless--AND I pray for her ALOT!! I grew up doing ALL of that. That is how I know you and Oakspear are probably gentle and kind people. My mom is--as are all those she hung out with when I was growing up.
But, I believe in the God of the bible. I believe He means what He says. That somehow makes ME judgemental?? He says it--I just have my faith in Him. Must be Him that is the one who really irratates??
I call it eternal judgement. . . . . . . seperation from God who holds all things together--hope this helps. :)
From Matthew 25:31–46 (NRSV):
31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and He will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at His right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40 And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.”’
41 ‘Then He will say to those at His left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45 Then He will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’
Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night…
Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life…And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Matt 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” This passage relates to Jesus’ judgment of all the world.
Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis.
Luke 16:24: “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell.
Revelation 20:13-15: “…hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 21:8: “But the fearful, and unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.”
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the
sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all
liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the
second death."
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no
rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for
anyone who receives the mark of his name."
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the
kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the
age, and the harvesters are angels.
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at
the end of the age.
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his
kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and
separate the wicked from the righteous
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and
gnashing of teeth.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my
church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one,
you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned
I suspect it irritates me, geisha, because I was in TWI for most of my adult life. I saw US vs THEM dramas play out in many situations( and experienced it up close with my hubby's family), which led to divisions in families, friendships and marriages--over 'doctrinal' issues, NOT evil behavior issues.
I approach these forums as exway. It is the only place in my life where I can express any thought about TWI or doctrinal issue, since my hubby will not talk about it.
I also saw fear manipulation ALL THE TIME. It was a major motivator in TWI, in marriages and childrearing.
Am I the only one that sees similarities? Sees dissonance and division, negative impacts ?
And why can't I discuss it and see what others have to say?
Just what are the positives of the damed to hell doctrine?
As far as missing out on wonderful friendships--I choose not to have friendships with those who would be thrillied if I changed.
People can choose what they want to believe--it baffles me that people would choose to believe this and feel in any way good about it.
Seems like the ultimate 'cool crowd.' Again, shades of TWi to me.
Funny, I remember as a child being glad I was so lucky to be born in the right church(RC). My poor Congregationalist neighbors(dad taught Sunday school), hell bound.They ALWAYS missed Mass and NEVER went to confession.
I see unbelievers I know doing the types of things in the prior verses in Matthew all the time. Hmm, still unbelievers, though, still don't believe Jesus is their God...etrnal suffering and destruction for them
Looks like pure ugly to me, even if it is in the Bible. Plus I know other Christians out there do not believe the damnation doctrine all exactly the same as this, but I doubt any of those will post here of their reasoning.
I suspect it irritates me, geisha, because I was in TWI for most of my adult life. I saw US vs THEM dramas play out in many situations( and experienced it up close with my hubby's family), which led to divisions in families, friendships and marriages--over 'doctrinal' issues, NOT evil behavior issues.
I approach these forums as exway. It is the only place in my life where I can express any thought about TWI or doctrinal issue, since my hubby will not talk about it.
I also saw fear manipulation ALL THE TIME. It was a major motivator in TWI, in marriages and childrearing.
Am I the only one that sees similarities? Sees dissonance and division, negative impacts ?
And why can't I discuss it and see what others have to say?
Just what are the positives of the damed to hell doctrine?
As far as missing out on wonderful friendships--I choose not to have friendships with those who would be thrillied if I changed.
I get that Bramble--I really really really do. I wish I was better at expressing my heart to you. More than anything I wish I could show you the heart of love I do have for you. I am just not very good at it----with this format.
For that I am sorry. I don't want to monopolize your thread--but I do want to ask you just one question. If I know God to be true. If I see His majesty and power and Glory. If I know Him and know He is real. If I have seen the truth of His words and know Him not to lie---If everything I do is with Him in mind--How could you respect me if I altered my view to accomodate any one person. It is God I worship. It is Jesus I follow. Not men. It is real.
I don't think people should wield the bible as a weapon--God is love, but He is also just Bramble. Holy and right. I understand why there has to be justice--I honestly get that now. His nature. Which is why the gift of salvation declares His love and mercy--judgement witheld.
It is a beautiful gift when really told and expressed. The reason some preach hell, is because some people don't see their sins. They don't see a need for redemption. It is an attention getter!LOL :)
My daughter went to a Prep School founded by DL Moody. Nothing now like his original intent--a very secular place. But, we got to see Moody's birthplace and grave, and we learned alot about him. We started reading his sermons--and Johnathan Edwards and others--branched out and read Spurgeon. These men had no armies backing them--they were part of the "Great Awakening". You wanna read some fire and brimestone preaching?? They converted tens of 1000's. More really.
Their sermons were often harsh--but tempered with the most amazing portrayal of God's love. People were drawn like flies. It is the love that does that--but first people have to see the need for this amazing redemption offered.
Hope that explains it a bit better.
Take Care--I hope people with others POV's DO post.
Which version of the Bible were you using? It sure ain't KJV.
Waysider, most of the more conservative Christian churches teach that if you are not a confessed, saved Christian, you are going to roast! TWI does/did not have the corner on exclusivity.
Someone once told me, and it fits more with my concept of a loving God, that while Christians may get a free ride through the pearly gates, those who are not Christians will be judged by their works. I can't document that book, chapter and verse, but it sounds more like the God I know. While most conservatives teach that you can live a perfectly Christ-like life, but not have surrendered to Jesus, you will yea verily go straight to hell, I think that's a bit much to swallow. And yes, dear conservatives I have yea verily accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, so don't fall out of your ivory towers trying to save me.
According to other conservative Christians, if you are saved and do not perform the letter of the law (according to their standards) you may still be sent to roast in the fiery flames of hell for all eternity.
According to others yet, if you do not think Christ like thoughts and perform many good works, you have not earned sufficient favor from God for God to so much as spit in your direction (See "Secrets of the Vine" by Bruce Wilkinson.)
Me, I dunno. I just do my best, and if my best is not good enough, or if LCM is right and when you leave TWI, you lose your salvation, then I guess I'm doomed. So I may as well have fun while I'm here.
Does god look down on the boys in the barroom mainly forsaken but surely not judged - Robert Hunter - 1974. At my age either I am already eternally damned or going to be knighted as some crooked halo'd saint. Doesn't matter to me and don't care. "Life is art without an eraser." (unknown quote). Eternal damnation is kind of a waste of time considering foolish things like "all have fallen short" - well I guess we are all damned by inference.
And yes - posted to annoy people because I am rude.
Geisha-- A just and loving God, who damns men to suffering for ALL ETERNITY for their sixty or seventy human years in the wrong church does not look just, loving or wise at all to me. He looks overly angry and punitive, the punishment looks like overkill, the great powerful omnipotent god against some puny mistaken human soul, who didn't even know they were wrong. Of course the all powerful god will win, but it makes him look like a villian who should be stopped.
I was talking about people who hold different religious doctrines, even different Christian doctrines--not ax murderers, or poisoners or the latest hitler.
Watered Garden, thank you for posting, it sounds like you have investigated the matter. I did not know of the varieties of beliefs you posted. I do know that not all Christianity is hellfire and brimstone, but not particulars.
Rumrunner, great quotes, not annoying or rude at all. Life is art without eraser, how very true, plus who knows when our candle blows out.
Heck, I've been damned since I was 18 by one church or another.
I don't get a lot of people volunteering to tell me that I'm going to Hell, possibly because I generally exude a "Don't F*** With Me" attitude I imagine that it would irritate me if someone, unsolicited, told me that I was going to Hell, not so much because their opinion bothers me, but because they presume to mind my business.
I suppose that if you believe that Hell awaits those who don't believe a certain way, it makes sense to tell people that, kind of like how advocates of healthy eating don't want to see their loved ones' arteries get clogged with cholestrol and drop dead of a heart attack at age 42.
From my point of view, I pretty much agree with Bramble, a god who tosses those who don't believe a certain way into eternal flame or ice or whatever, isn't a god that I will worship or respect.
Someone once told me, and it fits more with my concept of a loving God, that while Christians may get a free ride through the pearly gates, those who are not Christians will be judged by their works. I can't document that book, chapter and verse, but it sounds more like the God I know.
(snip)
Well, I can document that book, chapter and verse.
The verses that directly address what you're talking about:
Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
==============
Revelation 20:11-15 (NASB)
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
==================================
So, anyone not judged BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement (plenty were judged over 1000 years before it)
is judged according to their deeds.
("It's said twice because it's established." )
Those whose deeds don't make the grade get the "second death"- the lake of fire.
Wow--Bramble--my bible says that God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son--it doesn't say God so Hated the world He sends us all to hell.
Sounds to me like-----although He is just He tempers that justness with incredible mercy.
I think He says He wants none to perish?
How do you come to your conclusions?? He gave YOU the choice where to spend eternity. Freewill. He offers you gifts--love--mercy--eternity--kindness-salvation--inheritance--hope--freedom and grace.
He offers you healing and wholeness. He offers you Himself--with all His glory--He even offers you glory. He prepares a place for you to dwell with Him in eternity--He will always take you back. He loves you while you sin--He offers to commune with you--to dwell with you now. He offers you peace--He offers His strength. He offers His heart--He offers you a kingdom? He EVEN offers you the FAITH to believe it all.
What does He ask in return? That we believe on His Son--that worthy sacrifice. He will not make that void--for some--it is for all, but, that was the price paid and that is the Way. Jesus.
If you reject this--isn't that your choice? Just pretend for a moment that it is true--the God of the bible is
it. He is creator--isn't how he set redemption up-- His way?
It appears to me that you don't have any respect for the God of the bible--or fear of the Lord. If that is the case then His judgement should not irritate you--or His
words spoken by others should have no effect on you.
I can understand the pain TWI caused. If you believe nothing else--believe me when I say I GET IT! I would not wish my experiences on anybody. But, He turned it to good. He can do that--mean it for good.
The deep abiding tender love of God--should not be rejected out of hand. If He is real--what else are we following after?
I understand TWI but what if that wasn't really Christianity and we are judging God on our experiences with people and not on Jesus Himself?
Wouldn't that be a shame? We--ME--all of us --our wise in our own eyes--But Bramble HE is wisdom and He is good. And He loves you.
AND JUST TO ADD: God does NOT require you to be a member of a certain church or denomination--He meets you right where you are--you don't have to be perfect or even good--all He requires of you is to believe on His Son-Jesus Christ. When you see His goodness you repent of your sins--it is all Him--He asks so little and offers so much.
God really is love and in Him is no darkness- in us there is a bit. I can't imagine pronouncing judgement on such a loving God. Isn't that your problem with HIM!
This topic reminds me of how frail our human mind and understanding really is. If we don't think something sounds "fair" to us, we immediately whine.
C.S. Lewis in one of his great statements said "The doors of hell are locked from the inside"
If our idea of hell and judgement didn't come from TWI, we are probably remembering something we we may have been taught in childhood- perhaps from a granbmother, parent or teacher who told us if we didn't behave God will send us to hell. That type of thinking and teaching trivializes the true nature of God and defines sins as actions or deeds or rules we broke.
I don't think hell is full of people who are crying out for God's mercy, just begging for a second chance- Hell is a destination that is chosen by people who live in a state of rebellion against God. It is a result of continued attitude, not people who don't behave in a certain way.
Do we really think God is a cosmic "torcher"- waiting to throw someone to the flames because He is ultra-sensitive and unaware we could never be perfect?
No, people are going to hell with their fists clenched against God, cursing and denying Him all the way
What a loving God He is to offer us his home instead of settling for eternal life in hell- alone with our own conscience- and shut off from His presence
I will choose Jesus Christ as my Savior and thank him for saving me from myself and accept His eternal joy- I will not clench my fist towards the heavens- I will raise my hands instead and ask to receive His grace- I surely need it and surely don't deserve it- but He paid my penalty and I accept His work and count mine as nothing.
I don't believe I was born in sin and I don't believe I need a savior. Sorry, but that is how I see it. I believe God made formed and created me as He said HE did - awesomely and wonderfully made. Note, he does not say perfect, just awesome and wonderful.
I am not perfect. God didn't make me to be perfect and doesn't expect me to be perfect. That is part of what this life is for, to make mistakes and learn from them.
I don't think Jesus Christ will somehow magically and mysticall perfect me, again, because I do not believe that was God's plan for me.
While I can (on some level) recognize the heart and concern of those who teach hellfire and brimstone because they are concerned about the state of my soul/spirit/whatever you want to call it, I too find it offensive. Not just offensive to me personally, because they are "minding my business" but to God as well.
Like others here, I don't see anything loving in teachings that stem from fear.
It's not much of a choice when the "choice" is do what I say or you're toast! :o
Now if you're a Christian who doesn't believe in the traditional hell, and just believe that you return to dust when you die, then, okay, God is offering you a choice between the natural order of things, i.e. death and eternal life. In this scenario, unless God intervenes, you just stay dead. Quite different than the scenario where God created Hell, then sends you there if you don't fall into line. The first is either a rescue if you accept it, or no rescue if you don't. the second is reward if you accept it, a punishment if you don't.
I believe Bramble is talking specifiacally about the Christians who believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment.
I'm really not trying to get people to beg me back into being a Christian, nor am I whining.
I was discussing. My viewpoint had more to do with the fear motivation of the doctrine, the us vs them implications, which I must have really poorly communicated.
Wordwolf, the verses you brought up seem to conflict with those geisha shared, but they do make more sense in view of loving God.
Spudazo, in case you missed it, eternal damnation was brought up in context of non trinitarian Christians like Mormons, wafers, ex wafers etc etc. One type of Christian is okay, another is in grave danger...
According to geisha's doctrine as I understand it, most of the best people I have known in life end up eternally damned, ( not an 'orthodox' Protestant Christian among them)which makes no sense at all in context of any type of love, to me.
And I think geisha seems like a lovely person, her doctrine just makes little sense to me. and I wonder how an obviously loving person reconciles it within, and so far the answer seems to be that the focus is on other things, the good things,the things she really want to talk about, not those pesky Bramble thoughts.
We did this is TWI, too, but more extreme because we of course isolated ourselves from those not like us, and unbelievers were frequently enough vilified that we could look at them warily, and it made us vs them easier to live with. We were so very busy with US.
Yes, I was refering to the Eternal Damnation type of Hell, which involves eternal suffering for those that are/were not Chrisitan, or the right kind of Christian.
Spudazo, in case you missed it, eternal damnation was brought up in context of non trinitarian Christians like Mormons, wafers, ex wafers etc etc. One type of Christian is okay, another is in grave danger...
Took me a bit to find it.
"I’ve had Mormons in particular write to me and tell me that their “testimony is strong” and if I choose to answer their very passionate e-mails, I won’t be able to persuade them that the Mormon Church isn’t the only “true” church on earth. I write back telling them that I hope and pray they will lose that testimony because regardless of how strongly they feel, if they don’t know Jesus, then they have nothing. If they don’t know the TRUE Jesus of the Bible, the ONLY Jesus who can save them, if they only know the Jesus of the Jehovah’s Witnesses or The Way International or Mormonism or of Farakahan – then they don’t know Jesus. If they don’t know Jesus, no matter how lovely or wonderful they believe their organization is, they are lost, and if they take their final breath believing in their organization’s version of Jesus instead of having the true Jesus in their heart, they’ll die lost. I don’t wish this for anyone, and most importantly, Jesus doesn’t wish this for a single soul, because he died for ALL, and wants everyone to come to Him "
If that is what you are talking about? I agree wholeheartedly with the above statement. 2 Corinthians 11:3
I'm really not trying to get people to beg me back into being a Christian, nor am I whining.I was discussing. My viewpoint had more to do with the fear motivation of the doctrine, the us vs them implications, which I must have really poorly communicated.Wordwolf, the verses you brought up seem to conflict with those geisha shared, but they do make more sense in view of loving God.Spudazo, in case you missed it, eternal damnation was brought up in context of non trinitarian Christians like Mormons, wafers, ex wafers etc etc. One type of Christian is okay, another is in grave danger...According to geisha's doctrine as I understand it, most of the best people I have known in life end up eternally damned, ( not an 'orthodox' Protestant Christian among them)which makes no sense at all in context of any type of love, to me. And I think geisha seems like a lovely person, her doctrine just makes little sense to me. and I wonder how an obviously loving person reconciles it within, and so far the answer seems to be that the focus is on other things, the good things,the things she really want to talk about, not those pesky Bramble thoughts. We did this is TWI, too, but more extreme because we of course isolated ourselves from those not like us, and unbelievers were frequently enough vilified that we could look at them warily, and it made us vs them easier to live with. We were so very busy with US.
Geeze BrambleIf you are going to start a thread in response to something I said? You might want to make sure I ACTUALLY said it. If it is on the post about Mormon's JW's et al==WELL, I didn't ACTUALLY say that!!!!!!!I used an ex-way persons words to illustrate a different point--I did say it was NOT me. I used it to illustrate the description of a cult--used by most Christians.But gee--thanks for helping out poor befuddled "lovely person" "Geisha". Bramble style. That wouldn't be attributing others words to me would it?Here is a link to the person you might want to quiz about those words. Don't take something out of context-said by someone else --pin it to me--and then build some case about MY doctrine. We did that in TWI as well.http://users.churchserve.com/pa/obadiahmin...s/redflags.htmlEdited by geisha779
When one quotes someone else, or provides a link in the midst of a discussion, the implication is that one agreed with the quote or is otherwise using it to bolster one's argument. Saying "I didn't say that" is splitting hairs IMHO. Besides, Bramble didn't say that they were your words, just that they were your doctrine, i.e. that you held the same position.
And geisha, you seem a little ruffled that Bramble referred to you as a "lovely person", yet you referred to her and me and "kind & gentle" in seemingly the same context. :huh:
When one quotes someone else, or provides a link in the midst of a discussion, the implication is that one agreed with the quote or is otherwise using it to bolster one's argument. Saying "I didn't say that" is splitting hairs IMHO. Besides, Bramble didn't say that they were your words, just that they were your doctrine, i.e. that you held the same position.
And geisha, you seem a little ruffled that Bramble referred to you as a "lovely person", yet you referred to her and me and "kind & gentle" in seemingly the same context. :huh:
Nice try Oakspear,
I used it to make a totally different point as well you know-since you posted right after me on a thread about a totally different topic. Making a totally different point. Ruffled? A bit "Irritated" maybe--as it appears to be a back-handed attack on my faith and person. It also appears to be a stretch to pin someones elses words on me--and then proceed to call it my doctrine. How does she know?
If you post something on the white supremacists to support a point you are making about racism--am I to understand that is your Point of View as well?
But we don't make these arguments personal right?
Furthermore, if you went on to define your "doctrine" about racism--and I said to you--you only want to deal with the nice aspects of your "Doctrine" and not deal with the uglier things said by the KKK that I now "logically" attrbute to you. Might that irritate a bit? After all--you used it shore up a point--must mean you hold to their "Doctrine" Even though you painstakingly explained what you actually believed.
I used it to make a totally different point as well you know-since you posted right after me on a thread about a totally different topic. Making a totally different point.
I don't "well know"...my fifty year old brain cells can't keep track of every discussion in every thread. I'm sure that what you say is true, but I'm talking about the way it comes across.
If you post something on the white supremacists to support a point you are making about racism--am I to understand that is your Point of View as well?
If I did I would understand if it were misunderstood. I've done it and learned to be more clear.
I have to go to work now, and IT blocked my access to GSC, so I'll miss out on any responses until tonight. Have a great day!
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cman
Some ideas have to be undone.
Not an easy thing to happen.
To see the things that are here....now.
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geisha779
Why on earth would it irritate you if you don't believe in it? It is in the bible and part of the Christian faith. Doesn't that just make you intolerant to those of another faith. I mean really--if it is not true--what do you care?
Lose respect all you want. . . . you may be limiting yourself to some very nice people who happen to believe there is eternal judgement. I myself don't limit the people I love because they are Wiccan or have practiced wicthcraft.
Gotta go help my mom move into assited care today--she has lived with me for the past 13 years--did I mention she was a practicing witch my whole life??
I am a first generation Christian-- I believe God is just and does not lie.
Just to add: One of the reasons I am moving my mom to a place where she can get round the clock care--is because I am afraid she will burn my house down. She is STILL burning little pieces of paper in candles---I don't tell her she is going to HELL--I tell her to stop because she is careless--AND I pray for her ALOT!! I grew up doing ALL of that. That is how I know you and Oakspear are probably gentle and kind people. My mom is--as are all those she hung out with when I was growing up.
But, I believe in the God of the bible. I believe He means what He says. That somehow makes ME judgemental?? He says it--I just have my faith in Him. Must be Him that is the one who really irratates??
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waysider
Where (in The Bible) does it say people are going to Hell?
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geisha779
Hi Waysider,
I call it eternal judgement. . . . . . . seperation from God who holds all things together--hope this helps. :)
From Matthew 25:31–46 (NRSV):
31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and He will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at His right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40 And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.”’
41 ‘Then He will say to those at His left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45 Then He will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’
Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night…
Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life…And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Matt 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” This passage relates to Jesus’ judgment of all the world.
Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis.
Luke 16:24: “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell.
Revelation 20:13-15: “…hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 21:8: “But the fearful, and unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.”
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the
sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all
liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the
second death."
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They
will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no
rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for
anyone who receives the mark of his name."
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the
kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the
age, and the harvesters are angels.
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at
the end of the age.
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his
kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and
separate the wicked from the righteous
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and
gnashing of teeth.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my
church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You
travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one,
you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned
to hell?
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Bramble
I suspect it irritates me, geisha, because I was in TWI for most of my adult life. I saw US vs THEM dramas play out in many situations( and experienced it up close with my hubby's family), which led to divisions in families, friendships and marriages--over 'doctrinal' issues, NOT evil behavior issues.
I approach these forums as exway. It is the only place in my life where I can express any thought about TWI or doctrinal issue, since my hubby will not talk about it.
I also saw fear manipulation ALL THE TIME. It was a major motivator in TWI, in marriages and childrearing.
Am I the only one that sees similarities? Sees dissonance and division, negative impacts ?
And why can't I discuss it and see what others have to say?
Just what are the positives of the damed to hell doctrine?
As far as missing out on wonderful friendships--I choose not to have friendships with those who would be thrillied if I changed.
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Bramble
People can choose what they want to believe--it baffles me that people would choose to believe this and feel in any way good about it.
Seems like the ultimate 'cool crowd.' Again, shades of TWi to me.
Funny, I remember as a child being glad I was so lucky to be born in the right church(RC). My poor Congregationalist neighbors(dad taught Sunday school), hell bound.They ALWAYS missed Mass and NEVER went to confession.
I see unbelievers I know doing the types of things in the prior verses in Matthew all the time. Hmm, still unbelievers, though, still don't believe Jesus is their God...etrnal suffering and destruction for them
Looks like pure ugly to me, even if it is in the Bible. Plus I know other Christians out there do not believe the damnation doctrine all exactly the same as this, but I doubt any of those will post here of their reasoning.
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geisha779
I get that Bramble--I really really really do. I wish I was better at expressing my heart to you. More than anything I wish I could show you the heart of love I do have for you. I am just not very good at it----with this format.
For that I am sorry. I don't want to monopolize your thread--but I do want to ask you just one question. If I know God to be true. If I see His majesty and power and Glory. If I know Him and know He is real. If I have seen the truth of His words and know Him not to lie---If everything I do is with Him in mind--How could you respect me if I altered my view to accomodate any one person. It is God I worship. It is Jesus I follow. Not men. It is real.
I don't think people should wield the bible as a weapon--God is love, but He is also just Bramble. Holy and right. I understand why there has to be justice--I honestly get that now. His nature. Which is why the gift of salvation declares His love and mercy--judgement witheld.
It is a beautiful gift when really told and expressed. The reason some preach hell, is because some people don't see their sins. They don't see a need for redemption. It is an attention getter!LOL :)
My daughter went to a Prep School founded by DL Moody. Nothing now like his original intent--a very secular place. But, we got to see Moody's birthplace and grave, and we learned alot about him. We started reading his sermons--and Johnathan Edwards and others--branched out and read Spurgeon. These men had no armies backing them--they were part of the "Great Awakening". You wanna read some fire and brimestone preaching?? They converted tens of 1000's. More really.
Their sermons were often harsh--but tempered with the most amazing portrayal of God's love. People were drawn like flies. It is the love that does that--but first people have to see the need for this amazing redemption offered.
Hope that explains it a bit better.
Take Care--I hope people with others POV's DO post.
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Watered Garden
Which version of the Bible were you using? It sure ain't KJV.
Waysider, most of the more conservative Christian churches teach that if you are not a confessed, saved Christian, you are going to roast! TWI does/did not have the corner on exclusivity.
Someone once told me, and it fits more with my concept of a loving God, that while Christians may get a free ride through the pearly gates, those who are not Christians will be judged by their works. I can't document that book, chapter and verse, but it sounds more like the God I know. While most conservatives teach that you can live a perfectly Christ-like life, but not have surrendered to Jesus, you will yea verily go straight to hell, I think that's a bit much to swallow. And yes, dear conservatives I have yea verily accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, so don't fall out of your ivory towers trying to save me.
According to other conservative Christians, if you are saved and do not perform the letter of the law (according to their standards) you may still be sent to roast in the fiery flames of hell for all eternity.
According to others yet, if you do not think Christ like thoughts and perform many good works, you have not earned sufficient favor from God for God to so much as spit in your direction (See "Secrets of the Vine" by Bruce Wilkinson.)
Me, I dunno. I just do my best, and if my best is not good enough, or if LCM is right and when you leave TWI, you lose your salvation, then I guess I'm doomed. So I may as well have fun while I'm here.
WG
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RumRunner
Does god look down on the boys in the barroom mainly forsaken but surely not judged - Robert Hunter - 1974. At my age either I am already eternally damned or going to be knighted as some crooked halo'd saint. Doesn't matter to me and don't care. "Life is art without an eraser." (unknown quote). Eternal damnation is kind of a waste of time considering foolish things like "all have fallen short" - well I guess we are all damned by inference.
And yes - posted to annoy people because I am rude.
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Bramble
Geisha-- A just and loving God, who damns men to suffering for ALL ETERNITY for their sixty or seventy human years in the wrong church does not look just, loving or wise at all to me. He looks overly angry and punitive, the punishment looks like overkill, the great powerful omnipotent god against some puny mistaken human soul, who didn't even know they were wrong. Of course the all powerful god will win, but it makes him look like a villian who should be stopped.
I was talking about people who hold different religious doctrines, even different Christian doctrines--not ax murderers, or poisoners or the latest hitler.
Watered Garden, thank you for posting, it sounds like you have investigated the matter. I did not know of the varieties of beliefs you posted. I do know that not all Christianity is hellfire and brimstone, but not particulars.
Rumrunner, great quotes, not annoying or rude at all. Life is art without eraser, how very true, plus who knows when our candle blows out.
Heck, I've been damned since I was 18 by one church or another.
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Oakspear
I don't get a lot of people volunteering to tell me that I'm going to Hell, possibly because I generally exude a "Don't F*** With Me" attitude
I imagine that it would irritate me if someone, unsolicited, told me that I was going to Hell, not so much because their opinion bothers me, but because they presume to mind my business.
I suppose that if you believe that Hell awaits those who don't believe a certain way, it makes sense to tell people that, kind of like how advocates of healthy eating don't want to see their loved ones' arteries get clogged with cholestrol and drop dead of a heart attack at age 42.
From my point of view, I pretty much agree with Bramble, a god who tosses those who don't believe a certain way into eternal flame or ice or whatever, isn't a god that I will worship or respect.
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WordWolf
Well, I can document that book, chapter and verse.
The verses that directly address what you're talking about:
Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV)
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
==============
Revelation 20:11-15 (NASB)
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
==================================
So, anyone not judged BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement (plenty were judged over 1000 years before it)
is judged according to their deeds.
("It's said twice because it's established."
)
Those whose deeds don't make the grade get the "second death"- the lake of fire.
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geisha779
Wow--Bramble--my bible says that God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son--it doesn't say God so Hated the world He sends us all to hell.
Sounds to me like-----although He is just He tempers that justness with incredible mercy.
I think He says He wants none to perish?
How do you come to your conclusions?? He gave YOU the choice where to spend eternity. Freewill. He offers you gifts--love--mercy--eternity--kindness-salvation--inheritance--hope--freedom and grace.
He offers you healing and wholeness. He offers you Himself--with all His glory--He even offers you glory. He prepares a place for you to dwell with Him in eternity--He will always take you back. He loves you while you sin--He offers to commune with you--to dwell with you now. He offers you peace--He offers His strength. He offers His heart--He offers you a kingdom? He EVEN offers you the FAITH to believe it all.
What does He ask in return? That we believe on His Son--that worthy sacrifice. He will not make that void--for some--it is for all, but, that was the price paid and that is the Way. Jesus.
If you reject this--isn't that your choice? Just pretend for a moment that it is true--the God of the bible is
it. He is creator--isn't how he set redemption up-- His way?
It appears to me that you don't have any respect for the God of the bible--or fear of the Lord. If that is the case then His judgement should not irritate you--or His
words spoken by others should have no effect on you.
I can understand the pain TWI caused. If you believe nothing else--believe me when I say I GET IT! I would not wish my experiences on anybody. But, He turned it to good. He can do that--mean it for good.
The deep abiding tender love of God--should not be rejected out of hand. If He is real--what else are we following after?
I understand TWI but what if that wasn't really Christianity and we are judging God on our experiences with people and not on Jesus Himself?
Wouldn't that be a shame? We--ME--all of us --our wise in our own eyes--But Bramble HE is wisdom and He is good. And He loves you.
AND JUST TO ADD: God does NOT require you to be a member of a certain church or denomination--He meets you right where you are--you don't have to be perfect or even good--all He requires of you is to believe on His Son-Jesus Christ. When you see His goodness you repent of your sins--it is all Him--He asks so little and offers so much.
God really is love and in Him is no darkness- in us there is a bit. I can't imagine pronouncing judgement on such a loving God. Isn't that your problem with HIM!
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Spoudazo
May I jump in?
This topic reminds me of how frail our human mind and understanding really is. If we don't think something sounds "fair" to us, we immediately whine.
C.S. Lewis in one of his great statements said "The doors of hell are locked from the inside"
If our idea of hell and judgement didn't come from TWI, we are probably remembering something we we may have been taught in childhood- perhaps from a granbmother, parent or teacher who told us if we didn't behave God will send us to hell. That type of thinking and teaching trivializes the true nature of God and defines sins as actions or deeds or rules we broke.
I don't think hell is full of people who are crying out for God's mercy, just begging for a second chance- Hell is a destination that is chosen by people who live in a state of rebellion against God. It is a result of continued attitude, not people who don't behave in a certain way.
Do we really think God is a cosmic "torcher"- waiting to throw someone to the flames because He is ultra-sensitive and unaware we could never be perfect?
No, people are going to hell with their fists clenched against God, cursing and denying Him all the way
What a loving God He is to offer us his home instead of settling for eternal life in hell- alone with our own conscience- and shut off from His presence
I will choose Jesus Christ as my Savior and thank him for saving me from myself and accept His eternal joy- I will not clench my fist towards the heavens- I will raise my hands instead and ask to receive His grace- I surely need it and surely don't deserve it- but He paid my penalty and I accept His work and count mine as nothing.
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Abigail
I don't believe I was born in sin and I don't believe I need a savior. Sorry, but that is how I see it. I believe God made formed and created me as He said HE did - awesomely and wonderfully made. Note, he does not say perfect, just awesome and wonderful.
I am not perfect. God didn't make me to be perfect and doesn't expect me to be perfect. That is part of what this life is for, to make mistakes and learn from them.
I don't think Jesus Christ will somehow magically and mysticall perfect me, again, because I do not believe that was God's plan for me.
While I can (on some level) recognize the heart and concern of those who teach hellfire and brimstone because they are concerned about the state of my soul/spirit/whatever you want to call it, I too find it offensive. Not just offensive to me personally, because they are "minding my business" but to God as well.
Like others here, I don't see anything loving in teachings that stem from fear.
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Oakspear
It's not much of a choice when the "choice" is do what I say or you're toast! :o
Now if you're a Christian who doesn't believe in the traditional hell, and just believe that you return to dust when you die, then, okay, God is offering you a choice between the natural order of things, i.e. death and eternal life. In this scenario, unless God intervenes, you just stay dead. Quite different than the scenario where God created Hell, then sends you there if you don't fall into line. The first is either a rescue if you accept it, or no rescue if you don't. the second is reward if you accept it, a punishment if you don't.
I believe Bramble is talking specifiacally about the Christians who believe in Hell as a place of eternal torment.
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Bramble
I'm really not trying to get people to beg me back into being a Christian, nor am I whining.
I was discussing. My viewpoint had more to do with the fear motivation of the doctrine, the us vs them implications, which I must have really poorly communicated.
Wordwolf, the verses you brought up seem to conflict with those geisha shared, but they do make more sense in view of loving God.
Spudazo, in case you missed it, eternal damnation was brought up in context of non trinitarian Christians like Mormons, wafers, ex wafers etc etc. One type of Christian is okay, another is in grave danger...
According to geisha's doctrine as I understand it, most of the best people I have known in life end up eternally damned, ( not an 'orthodox' Protestant Christian among them)which makes no sense at all in context of any type of love, to me.
And I think geisha seems like a lovely person, her doctrine just makes little sense to me. and I wonder how an obviously loving person reconciles it within, and so far the answer seems to be that the focus is on other things, the good things,the things she really want to talk about, not those pesky Bramble thoughts.
We did this is TWI, too, but more extreme because we of course isolated ourselves from those not like us, and unbelievers were frequently enough vilified that we could look at them warily, and it made us vs them easier to live with. We were so very busy with US.
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Bramble
Yes, I was refering to the Eternal Damnation type of Hell, which involves eternal suffering for those that are/were not Chrisitan, or the right kind of Christian.
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Spoudazo
Took me a bit to find it.
"I’ve had Mormons in particular write to me and tell me that their “testimony is strong” and if I choose to answer their very passionate e-mails, I won’t be able to persuade them that the Mormon Church isn’t the only “true” church on earth. I write back telling them that I hope and pray they will lose that testimony because regardless of how strongly they feel, if they don’t know Jesus, then they have nothing. If they don’t know the TRUE Jesus of the Bible, the ONLY Jesus who can save them, if they only know the Jesus of the Jehovah’s Witnesses or The Way International or Mormonism or of Farakahan – then they don’t know Jesus. If they don’t know Jesus, no matter how lovely or wonderful they believe their organization is, they are lost, and if they take their final breath believing in their organization’s version of Jesus instead of having the true Jesus in their heart, they’ll die lost. I don’t wish this for anyone, and most importantly, Jesus doesn’t wish this for a single soul, because he died for ALL, and wants everyone to come to Him "
If that is what you are talking about? I agree wholeheartedly with the above statement. 2 Corinthians 11:3
You do realize we were in a cult?
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geisha779
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Oakspear
When one quotes someone else, or provides a link in the midst of a discussion, the implication is that one agreed with the quote or is otherwise using it to bolster one's argument. Saying "I didn't say that" is splitting hairs IMHO. Besides, Bramble didn't say that they were your words, just that they were your doctrine, i.e. that you held the same position.
And geisha, you seem a little ruffled that Bramble referred to you as a "lovely person", yet you referred to her and me and "kind & gentle" in seemingly the same context. :huh:
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geisha779
Nice try Oakspear,
I used it to make a totally different point as well you know-since you posted right after me on a thread about a totally different topic. Making a totally different point. Ruffled? A bit "Irritated" maybe--as it appears to be a back-handed attack on my faith and person. It also appears to be a stretch to pin someones elses words on me--and then proceed to call it my doctrine. How does she know?
If you post something on the white supremacists to support a point you are making about racism--am I to understand that is your Point of View as well?
But we don't make these arguments personal right?
Furthermore, if you went on to define your "doctrine" about racism--and I said to you--you only want to deal with the nice aspects of your "Doctrine" and not deal with the uglier things said by the KKK that I now "logically" attrbute to you. Might that irritate a bit? After all--you used it shore up a point--must mean you hold to their "Doctrine" Even though you painstakingly explained what you actually believed.
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cman
I'd say if your God condemns people forever, or eternal torture.
As I heard someone say, Time to upgrade your God.
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Oakspear
I have to go to work now, and IT blocked my access to GSC, so I'll miss out on any responses until tonight. Have a great day!
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