In TWI, everything always had to have some sort of spiritual meaning.
According toTWI, bad things supposedly happened in your area or your life because you were moving "The Word" and the adversary was trying to stop it.
But then again, maybe bad things supposedly happened in your area or your life because you were NOT moving "The Word", thus giving the adversary an open trapdoor by which to attack you.
Geeze Louise---Maybe bad stuff just happens---period, ya know?
In the grand scheme of the history of mankind, VPW was nobody.
He was a huckster, a flim-flam man who set up a clever MLM and used "The Word" to lend credibility to it all.
It was never about "us" or God, it was always about VP.
He got what he wanted. He had prime real estate, servants to wait on him, expensive guns and dogs and fishing gear to satisfy his outdoor interests. He had a whole fleet of classic cars and a fleet of expensive motorcycles tucked away, out of sight from Joe B. Leever. He had his own private jet and a motor coach. He even had his own private harem of concubines. And the list goes on. Who paid for all that stuff? Is it any wonder he pushed so hard for "Word Over The World"? Money from classes, money from ABS, all at the expense of someone other than VPW.
We're like the little old man on the 11 o'clock news who relates how he was swindled out of his life savings.
It's embarrassing as heck to admit it but, at the same time, it's a relief to get it out in the open.
I guess I only look at TWI and God's providence in terms of my own life. I never really have considered it too much in the larger scheme. Since it is dwindled from its glory days of larger participation--God seems to have it under control.
I know that God's will is not thwarted by man, but man's will can be frustrated by God-should it run contrary to His purpose.
I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure. . .Isaiah 46:9-10
The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation. . .Psalm 33:10, 11
In all that HE does--His plan and purpose HE will be glorified. So, I guess we look for what has glorified God in all of this. Deliverance, Salvation, healing, a keen awareness of His Grace, Love and Mercy in our deliverance.
We missed the boat--I think--because to understand God's providence we have to understand His goodness and Holiness. It is how it all fits together. Otherwise, God looks like a meglomaniac, and we have to find a new way to define Him. Seems to me, that is what we did in TWI.
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord, it will stand. I guess we did not really understand the greatness and majesty and AUTHORITY of the Lord. Or we could not accept it because we really wanted the reins in our own lives. Not giving over to the Lordship of an "Absent Christ". We really refused to submit to His authority--but gave over all to some very bad men. Go figure??We didn't know Him enough to trust Him. He is worthy of faith.
We are not to be afraid of God's sovereignty, but to rest in it. To find comfort in it. The only way to do this is to know His character--His goodness--His Mercy--How He only does good--How He is a rock in a trial--a safe haven in a tempest. To know that He is love, and to also understand He is just, merciful, gracious, but oh so Holy. That His purpose and will are right, and we are to bend to it, because that is the best thing possible. For us-sinners--with flesh--not always the easiest or quickest or even the most pleasant thing, but ALWAYS the best.
In TWI--I ran the show. Understanding God's sovereign will was nearly impossible for me. I was way too busy believing for what I wanted. Not what was best for me, but what I wanted.
How shocking to find out after TWI--that His will was not thwarted and He was able to use my experience to Glorify Himself to me--in His Mercy and Grace to me in my deliverance from that deadly gospel they preached.
People talk about free-will and yes we do have it--it fits with God's goodness. But, God is so perfect and beyond our pea-brain comprehension it is hard for us to "get" that His purpose can be acomplished without overstepping our freewill.
There are many verses that imply God controls everything--I think it is a bit more complex than we understand.
I guess I only look at TWI and God's providence in terms of my own life. I never really have considered it too much in the larger scheme. Since it is dwindled from its glory days of larger participation--God seems to have it under control.
I know that God's will is not thwarted by man, but man's will can be frustrated by God-should it run contrary to His purpose.
I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure. . .Isaiah 46:9-10
The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation. . .Psalm 33:10, 11
In all that HE does--His plan and purpose HE will be glorified. So, I guess we look for what has glorified God in all of this. Deliverance, Salvation, healing, a keen awareness of His Grace, Love and Mercy in our deliverance.
We missed the boat--I think--because to understand God's providence we have to understand His goodness and Holiness. It is how it all fits together. Otherwise, God looks like a meglomaniac, and we have to find a new way to define Him. Seems to me, that is what we did in TWI.
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord, it will stand. I guess we did not really understand the greatness and majesty and AUTHORITY of the Lord. Or we could not accept it because we really wanted the reins in our own lives. Not giving over to the Lordship of an "Absent Christ". We really refused to submit to His authority--but gave over all to some very bad men. Go figure??We didn't know Him enough to trust Him. He is worthy of faith.
We are not to be afraid of God's sovereignty, but to rest in it. To find comfort in it. The only way to do this is to know His character--His goodness--His Mercy--How He only does good--How He is a rock in a trial--a safe haven in a tempest. To know that He is love, and to also understand He is just, merciful, gracious, but oh so Holy. That His purpose and will are right, and we are to bend to it, because that is the best thing possible. For us-sinners--with flesh--not always the easiest or quickest or even the most pleasant thing, but ALWAYS the best.
In TWI--I ran the show. Understanding God's sovereign will was nearly impossible for me. I was way too busy believing for what I wanted. Not what was best for me, but what I wanted.
How shocking to find out after TWI--that His will was not thwarted and He was able to use my experience to Glorify Himself to me--in His Mercy and Grace to me in my deliverance from that deadly gospel they preached.
People talk about free-will and yes we do have it--it fits with God's goodness. But, God is so perfect and beyond our pea-brain comprehension it is hard for us to "get" that His purpose can be acomplished without overstepping our freewill.
There are many verses that imply God controls everything--I think it is a bit more complex than we understand.
What a WONDERFUL way to say it! I really appreciate your clear thinking that's so well expressed!
Good topic, and (I agree with Ron) good response, Geisha!
There is coming a day, as I see it, when the Wisdom of God and the Purposes of God will be fully made known. Now, we see "through a glass, darkly," but then, "face to face." The Lord Jesus, central to Life, perfect Representative of both man and God, has been given all power and authority. He will judge as God would judge. And we'll all say, "amen!"
You think God would have given revelation to somebody a lot sooner to help keep things clean? Maybe He did, but nobody listened. Or, perhaps He remained silent for some greater good. I guess it all depends on your theology.
I don't believe that God is ever silent. I don't believe that God ever inserts Himself into our lives in such a way that it would cause harm either, harm being counter productive to our own well being and continuance. There are however limitations, described as far back as Genesis, with "Adam and Eve". The nature of this life we currently have is that there will be conflict, struggle and opposing forces, not only from an "adversary" but also because we as a people aren't unified or "one", we are many and we function independently and as individuals. Our "free will" or ability to choose is, IMO, largely seen less in how we decide for ourselves alone and more in how we decide to live and function together as a group and therein is seen the chaotic march of mankind. Within that we have the challenge to learn and build, as long as we live.
Two records that speak to that are Jeremiah 18, and Isaiah 64:8, a snapshot view. I see Jeremiah as the long view, so to speak, of God's working witih mankind.
I don't have much time today, but let me throw this out for consideration.
If a group like TWI, my splinter group or any other seek to control everything and the people involved then there is a problem.
The scriptures about God's will are clear, and as people I believe the best that we can do is live and learn from Him.
But when someone takes control for themselves (or think they are in control) then it seems to me that human nature tends to bring out the worst things in those who live to exert godlike control over their subjects.
I'm no fan of the word "cult", but in spite of that I think that people trying to exert godlike control over peoples' lives is a big problem.
Experience has shown me that it can be an intoxicating place for the leaders to live and if they can throw around an abundance of scriptures while mixing it with an appearance of loving people that folks will be fooled.
Since leaving the Way almost 10 years ago, my doctrine and understanding of God has changed significantly. My image of God was of someone who could not legally encroach upon the matters of this world because it was legally owned by the adversary.
But if we could struggle and focus and channel our mental energy on some mind picture (a.k.a. "believe"), that allowed God to supersede all of that in some way and God would come to our rescue. But if we didn't believe that somehow God's hands were tied and he could do nothing. What a sad understanding of the human journey to the spiritual IMHO.
Many people out there believe that God is completely in control of every single event in human history and that nothing happens without God's sovereign approval because everything that happens is either done actively by God or by Him passively allowing it to happen. While I must say that I am not fully convinced of this position I am convinced that God is much more in "control" of things than I was acknowledging in my Way days.
What is your view of God's control in this life?
When you think about all of the bad things that happened in the way by VPW and LCM, to what extent were these things foreordained by God?
I've always found it funny that for having tens of thousands of members all "filled with pneuma hagion" capable of operating all 9 manifestations, that all the sex and drunkenness and the reality of the abuse was kept hidden from so many of us for so long. It just seemed to take so long before the lid was blown open publicly on all of this stuff. You think God would have given revelation to somebody a lot sooner to help keep things clean? Maybe He did, but nobody listened. Or, perhaps He remained silent for some greater good. I guess it all depends on your theology.
When Joseph revealed himself to his brothers and told them of their wickedness in selling him into slavery, he said that they meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
We tend to complain about VPW and LCM and what they did and what they did and what they did. To what extent did God play a role? There's no question that ultimately, whatever God wants accomplished, will be.
Just curious to all of your thoughts on this matter. :)
...
A thought provoking post, One Who is Free! Whenever I think of that Genesis reference:
Genesis 50:20 NASB
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."
My mind always tags on a passage from Romans:
Romans 8:28 NASB
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Don't know who can explain the way God works behind the scenes – like you were saying it depends on one's theology. The above passages offer little to explain exactly how God intervenes – or to put it another way – exercises His sovereignty. But they are very clear on His intent – both verses focus on the benevolence of God. Despite all the bad things that happened to Joseph, God still managed to turn things around – even while he was in jail!
The story of Joseph is an amazingly intricate blend of God's sovereignty and man's activity. Romans does NOT say God causes all things…it's that He causes all things to work together for good. I realize any analogy or speculation on how God works falls short of describing His abilities or what He actual does – but sometimes I picture God as a grand traffic-controller of events.
He does not exert absolute control over each being in the flow of events, but I consider all beings as something of His design and think they would typically follow some innate protocols [like the conscience – referred to in Romans 2:14, 15]. That's one level of influence God already has over the big picture [the traffic flow or chain of events]. Another, more overt level of influence as shown in the Joseph account and other stories is when God induces messages in dreams, provides direct revelation, and speaks audibly.
He can work through a variety of approaches. He may re-direct traffic or block off streets through natural or "coincidental" means, or use a more direct approach – a miracle – which I would classify as an emergency response vehicle that has the right-of-way in all traffic – . Besides taking into account God's omnipotence to pull all that off – it's altogether mind-boggling when I think of God's omniscience – He not only knows what's going on at the moment…everywhere…but He's got foreknowledge – which is better than up-to-the-minute-traffic-reports. He's already making preparations for things that will happen way down the road!
Which brings up the power of prayer. How does that fit in with God's sovereignty? Well, it just may be that a particular prayer is the means God deemed necessary for something to happen. From our perspective – it looks like our prayer changed the course of events. But perhaps from God's viewpoint – that prayer was exactly what He planned on using to ensure the flow of events according to His agenda.
~~
For me, the most complex weaving of God's sovereignty and man's activity is the crucifixion of Jesus. Think about all the contingencies that threatened the entire life of Jesus – yet Scripture foretold the way He would die. One passage showcases this conundrum of God's sovereignty and man's activity:
Matthew 26:23-25 NASB
23And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
24"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
25And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."
~~
Since your post got me thinking how all this relates to my TWI experience – I'm at a loss for figuring out exactly what God had in mind for me. That's not to say my whole experience was bad or there's nothing good that came out of it. I feel the road I've taken after TWI is in many ways a God-honoring response to a spiritually treacherous experience. I take very seriously the development of MY belief system. Being burned enough by religious con-artists I've learned the hard way about the value of critical thinking and the necessity of a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ.
In some ways – I think any Christian who escaped TWI had a Paul-conversion-experience. Paul was zealous for God, knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand – but persecuted the very One who was at the center of the Scriptures. Until he met Him on the road to Damascus. That mindset-shattering experience caused Paul to re-think everything he knew about the Scriptures. He didn't throw it all away – instead he re-built his theological system – now with Christ at the center!
To simplify things – I'm saying life is too short to try and figure out what God's plan was for me while in TWI. Like Joseph, I think the best we can do is look to God for strength and wisdom to make lemonade out of lemons…And on a very practical level – I've found myself drawing upon even the negative experiences of TWI. I tend not to get caught up in office politics like some folks after dealing with all the mind-games of Corps training. I don't care how much of a control-freak a supervisor becomes – it usually slides off my back as I stifle a smile while thinking I'm Corps dammit – this ain't nothing!
In some ways – I think any Christian who escaped TWI had a Paul-conversion-experience. Paul was zealous for God, knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand – but persecuted the very One who was at the center of the Scriptures. Until he met Him on the road to Damascus. That mindset-shattering experience caused Paul to re-think everything he knew about the Scriptures. He didn't throw it all away – instead he re-built his theological system – now with Christ at the center!
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waysider
In TWI, everything always had to have some sort of spiritual meaning.
According toTWI, bad things supposedly happened in your area or your life because you were moving "The Word" and the adversary was trying to stop it.
But then again, maybe bad things supposedly happened in your area or your life because you were NOT moving "The Word", thus giving the adversary an open trapdoor by which to attack you.
Geeze Louise---Maybe bad stuff just happens---period, ya know?
In the grand scheme of the history of mankind, VPW was nobody.
He was a huckster, a flim-flam man who set up a clever MLM and used "The Word" to lend credibility to it all.
It was never about "us" or God, it was always about VP.
He got what he wanted. He had prime real estate, servants to wait on him, expensive guns and dogs and fishing gear to satisfy his outdoor interests. He had a whole fleet of classic cars and a fleet of expensive motorcycles tucked away, out of sight from Joe B. Leever. He had his own private jet and a motor coach. He even had his own private harem of concubines. And the list goes on. Who paid for all that stuff? Is it any wonder he pushed so hard for "Word Over The World"? Money from classes, money from ABS, all at the expense of someone other than VPW.
We're like the little old man on the 11 o'clock news who relates how he was swindled out of his life savings.
It's embarrassing as heck to admit it but, at the same time, it's a relief to get it out in the open.
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geisha779
I guess I only look at TWI and God's providence in terms of my own life. I never really have considered it too much in the larger scheme. Since it is dwindled from its glory days of larger participation--God seems to have it under control.
I know that God's will is not thwarted by man, but man's will can be frustrated by God-should it run contrary to His purpose.
I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure. . .Isaiah 46:9-10
The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation. . .Psalm 33:10, 11
In all that HE does--His plan and purpose HE will be glorified. So, I guess we look for what has glorified God in all of this. Deliverance, Salvation, healing, a keen awareness of His Grace, Love and Mercy in our deliverance.
We missed the boat--I think--because to understand God's providence we have to understand His goodness and Holiness. It is how it all fits together. Otherwise, God looks like a meglomaniac, and we have to find a new way to define Him. Seems to me, that is what we did in TWI.
Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord, it will stand. I guess we did not really understand the greatness and majesty and AUTHORITY of the Lord. Or we could not accept it because we really wanted the reins in our own lives. Not giving over to the Lordship of an "Absent Christ". We really refused to submit to His authority--but gave over all to some very bad men. Go figure??We didn't know Him enough to trust Him. He is worthy of faith.
We are not to be afraid of God's sovereignty, but to rest in it. To find comfort in it. The only way to do this is to know His character--His goodness--His Mercy--How He only does good--How He is a rock in a trial--a safe haven in a tempest. To know that He is love, and to also understand He is just, merciful, gracious, but oh so Holy. That His purpose and will are right, and we are to bend to it, because that is the best thing possible. For us-sinners--with flesh--not always the easiest or quickest or even the most pleasant thing, but ALWAYS the best.
In TWI--I ran the show. Understanding God's sovereign will was nearly impossible for me. I was way too busy believing for what I wanted. Not what was best for me, but what I wanted.
How shocking to find out after TWI--that His will was not thwarted and He was able to use my experience to Glorify Himself to me--in His Mercy and Grace to me in my deliverance from that deadly gospel they preached.
People talk about free-will and yes we do have it--it fits with God's goodness. But, God is so perfect and beyond our pea-brain comprehension it is hard for us to "get" that His purpose can be acomplished without overstepping our freewill.
There are many verses that imply God controls everything--I think it is a bit more complex than we understand.
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Ron G.
What a WONDERFUL way to say it! I really appreciate your clear thinking that's so well expressed!
Thank you.
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anotherDan
Good topic, and (I agree with Ron) good response, Geisha!
There is coming a day, as I see it, when the Wisdom of God and the Purposes of God will be fully made known. Now, we see "through a glass, darkly," but then, "face to face." The Lord Jesus, central to Life, perfect Representative of both man and God, has been given all power and authority. He will judge as God would judge. And we'll all say, "amen!"
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socks
You think God would have given revelation to somebody a lot sooner to help keep things clean? Maybe He did, but nobody listened. Or, perhaps He remained silent for some greater good. I guess it all depends on your theology.
I don't believe that God is ever silent. I don't believe that God ever inserts Himself into our lives in such a way that it would cause harm either, harm being counter productive to our own well being and continuance. There are however limitations, described as far back as Genesis, with "Adam and Eve". The nature of this life we currently have is that there will be conflict, struggle and opposing forces, not only from an "adversary" but also because we as a people aren't unified or "one", we are many and we function independently and as individuals. Our "free will" or ability to choose is, IMO, largely seen less in how we decide for ourselves alone and more in how we decide to live and function together as a group and therein is seen the chaotic march of mankind. Within that we have the challenge to learn and build, as long as we live.
Two records that speak to that are Jeremiah 18, and Isaiah 64:8, a snapshot view. I see Jeremiah as the long view, so to speak, of God's working witih mankind.
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JeffSjo
I don't have much time today, but let me throw this out for consideration.
If a group like TWI, my splinter group or any other seek to control everything and the people involved then there is a problem.
The scriptures about God's will are clear, and as people I believe the best that we can do is live and learn from Him.
But when someone takes control for themselves (or think they are in control) then it seems to me that human nature tends to bring out the worst things in those who live to exert godlike control over their subjects.
I'm no fan of the word "cult", but in spite of that I think that people trying to exert godlike control over peoples' lives is a big problem.
Experience has shown me that it can be an intoxicating place for the leaders to live and if they can throw around an abundance of scriptures while mixing it with an appearance of loving people that folks will be fooled.
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T-Bone
A thought provoking post, One Who is Free! Whenever I think of that Genesis reference:
Genesis 50:20 NASB
"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive."
My mind always tags on a passage from Romans:
Romans 8:28 NASB
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Don't know who can explain the way God works behind the scenes – like you were saying it depends on one's theology. The above passages offer little to explain exactly how God intervenes – or to put it another way – exercises His sovereignty. But they are very clear on His intent – both verses focus on the benevolence of God. Despite all the bad things that happened to Joseph, God still managed to turn things around – even while he was in jail!
The story of Joseph is an amazingly intricate blend of God's sovereignty and man's activity. Romans does NOT say God causes all things…it's that He causes all things to work together for good. I realize any analogy or speculation on how God works falls short of describing His abilities or what He actual does – but sometimes I picture God as a grand traffic-controller of events.
He does not exert absolute control over each being in the flow of events, but I consider all beings as something of His design and think they would typically follow some innate protocols [like the conscience – referred to in Romans 2:14, 15]. That's one level of influence God already has over the big picture [the traffic flow or chain of events]. Another, more overt level of influence as shown in the Joseph account and other stories is when God induces messages in dreams, provides direct revelation, and speaks audibly.
He can work through a variety of approaches. He may re-direct traffic or block off streets through natural or "coincidental" means, or use a more direct approach – a miracle – which I would classify as an emergency response vehicle that has the right-of-way in all traffic –
. Besides taking into account God's omnipotence to pull all that off – it's altogether mind-boggling when I think of God's omniscience – He not only knows what's going on at the moment…everywhere…but He's got foreknowledge – which is better than up-to-the-minute-traffic-reports. He's already making preparations for things that will happen way down the road!
Which brings up the power of prayer. How does that fit in with God's sovereignty? Well, it just may be that a particular prayer is the means God deemed necessary for something to happen. From our perspective – it looks like our prayer changed the course of events. But perhaps from God's viewpoint – that prayer was exactly what He planned on using to ensure the flow of events according to His agenda.
~~
For me, the most complex weaving of God's sovereignty and man's activity is the crucifixion of Jesus. Think about all the contingencies that threatened the entire life of Jesus – yet Scripture foretold the way He would die. One passage showcases this conundrum of God's sovereignty and man's activity:
Matthew 26:23-25 NASB
23And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me.
24"The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
25And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."
~~
Since your post got me thinking how all this relates to my TWI experience – I'm at a loss for figuring out exactly what God had in mind for me. That's not to say my whole experience was bad or there's nothing good that came out of it. I feel the road I've taken after TWI is in many ways a God-honoring response to a spiritually treacherous experience. I take very seriously the development of MY belief system. Being burned enough by religious con-artists I've learned the hard way about the value of critical thinking and the necessity of a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ.
In some ways – I think any Christian who escaped TWI had a Paul-conversion-experience. Paul was zealous for God, knew the Old Testament like the back of his hand – but persecuted the very One who was at the center of the Scriptures. Until he met Him on the road to Damascus. That mindset-shattering experience caused Paul to re-think everything he knew about the Scriptures. He didn't throw it all away – instead he re-built his theological system – now with Christ at the center!
To simplify things – I'm saying life is too short to try and figure out what God's plan was for me while in TWI. Like Joseph, I think the best we can do is look to God for strength and wisdom to make lemonade out of lemons…And on a very practical level – I've found myself drawing upon even the negative experiences of TWI. I tend not to get caught up in office politics like some folks after dealing with all the mind-games of Corps training. I don't care how much of a control-freak a supervisor becomes – it usually slides off my back as I stifle a smile while thinking I'm Corps dammit – this ain't nothing!
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penguin
Awesome description T-bone!
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