Interesting post, Chas. It sort of begs the question, "What would TWI be like now if they HAD told the membership what was going on?" There probably would have been an exodus of the outraged, but I suspect that a lot of others would have remained, because it was the stonewalling that turned them off. Of course, I doubt that Rosie and the others are kicking themselves over it, since they STILL haven't come clean, and are unlikely to do so.
ChasU:I remember the tape that LCM sent out to household fellowship coordinators and their assistants back in 1999, when we were told, "Stay off the internet!" It was then that I KNEW something ugly was brewing. So, I went on the internet to find out what it was! Viva Waydale!
We often were told "it's none of your business!" or "why do you want to know?" or "you'll find out what you need to know when you need to know it!"
"You were such a great believer once and we really thought you'd go in the Corps and really make something of your life.
It was on Waydale that MANY innies were able to learn what was really going on. They stopped asking leadership what had happened or why because they got their answers from a much better source.
TWI Gestapo shouldn't have been surprised when people sought other sources for their information
IF TWI Gestapo had been smart.....
G.St.G: It sort of begs the question, "What would TWI be like now if they HAD told the membership what was going on?" There probably would have been an exodus of the outraged, but I suspect that a lot of others would have remained, because it was the stonewalling that turned them off.
Their pattern was duplicitous, to say the least. Tell certain things, the most basic high level information that wouldn't elude to the fact that anything was really wrong but paint the problem as one of malcontents making trouble. Tell everyone not to go on the internet and start poking around. (knowing WayDale's online)
(Keeping in mind that even as LCM said that he knew completely different. He knew the bell ringer was gearing up for a tollin').
(Also keep in mind that they went from 0 to 90 in just a few months, with LCM ultimately being fired and stripped of all official status and recognition with the Way. SOMEthing must have been brewing all those months that wasn't uh, salted.)
Then - if anyone asks about anything that wasn't covrered in the meetings or letters or tapes - it's a dead giveaway that they've been getting information from alternative sources. A ha!!! You've been on the internet, exercising your God-given right to choose, think and evaluate. No WONDER you're at cross purposes to the Way!
They think. Apparently they were assuming that no one else is thinking because if anyone is, they're bound to come up with a few questions with or without the internet, regardless. Like "What's going on?"
Again - the horse that can't be beat - Rico Magnelli's statement to make these matters visible and clear to their membership was a mighty claim, honorable and full or promise. If only it had been so.
I agree GeorgeStGeorge - in theory. I would think that if there had been some reasonable effort to provide the kind of A-to-Z detail that was promised, a lot of people might have acted differently.
Like, they might have tried to actively help, instead of being asked to loiter around with prayer cloths in-hand, waiting for the Next Big Lie to come down the pike.
If they ever got honest, they would have to step down, and kiss the lifestyle they've been leading good-bye. Sadly, they are able to live with themselves.
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
You ... you stay off the internet. Dangerous stuff out there (might blow a hole in our cover).
But we ... we have to get on the Internet. To see what's going on and thereby protect the household.
Looks like they don't even recognize the double standard.
THW, what an insane story of how they tracked you down and confronted you. Great response from you!
Insane to think that people would stay off the net when in fact many were already used to using it a great deal in their work / professional life to find out information. TWI must have had some wonderful ideas about "obedience" to think that issuing a demand like "stay off the internet" would be other than an invitation to use the net find out.
Or perhaps it was a cunning ploy by M@gnelli to make sure that the information got out, that he knew he wasn't allowed to say?
Livinlarge: stay safe. Thanks for your input.
Remind me again how I got tied up with this mad bunch. No - don't!
Insane to think that people would stay off the net when in fact many were already used to using it a great deal in their work / professional life to find out information. TWI must have had some wonderful ideas about "obedience" to think that issuing a demand like "stay off the internet" would be other than an invitation to use the net find out.
Well, keep in mind the "stay off the internet" command actually started when the net was fairly new and not everyone had access at home and at work. Even during the first lawsuit it wasn't meant to say you couldn't use the internet for "legitimate purposes". What they meant was "don't randomly surf the net with little or no specific purpose in mind"... You know, an idle mind is the devil's playground.
Of course, they felt justified in saying this because it fell right in step with their dictates about using time wisely (hence having us all submit weekly schedules broken into 15-minute increments)... uh, duh, like taking over an hour each week to sketch out such a schedule was deemed good use of time, lol.
Once the lawsuits hit it became: Don't go looking for trouble. (aka Don't go looking for dirt on twi.) Since no rule-abiding twi-bot would have a website of any kind, let alone one about twi, OF COURSE the only thing you could possibly find was a bunch of low-life copouts spewing a bunch of lies about twi, so why would you even look in the first place?
I think people who stay in for a long time( i stayed in for 20 years) do make changes to allow certain behaviors to exist. I think it is called cognitive dissonance.
As a young woman I despised temper tantrums in adults of college age and lost respect for those who threw them, which kept or got me out of some relationships, which was not a bad thing.
Fifteen years later, an adult way leader having a tantrum was 'spiritual anger,' and leaders imitated LCm's raging and snorting. This came to be some kind of indication of the heavy spiritual happenings, world shaking importance of the ministry and our 'stand'.
Attitude was -- "Whoa, this situation is sooo spiritually dark and dangerous", NOT "Whoa, what a manipulative idiot."
Highway:Well, keep in mind the "stay off the internet" command actually started when the net was fairly new and not everyone had access at home and at work. Even during the first lawsuit it wasn't meant to say you couldn't use the internet for "legitimate purposes". What they meant was "don't randomly surf the net with little or no specific purpose in mind"... You know, an idle mind is the devil's playground.
Highway - that's actually the first time I've heard that the 'net didn't have a flat out "don't use it" dictum to it. Legitmiate purposes, makes sense. Although I still have a real problem with the idea of Wayfer's getting so deep into each others shorts. Encouragement, sure. Fine. They're entitled to live how they want as long as the don't break the law and don't interfere with others too much.
So now I'm wondering - was there a point where the collateral damage from the 'net was so high that they became more insistent? Or was it entirely focused on WayDale and other sites reporting negatively on the Way?
Bramble: Fifteen years later, an adult way leader having a tantrum was 'spiritual anger,' and leaders imitated LCm's raging and snorting.
There was an odd license to snort that prevailed in the promiscuous land of Martindale, for sure. Which might be a weird testament to how boring it can get in WayWorld. Maybe it seemed kinda sexy to some of them. Gettin' all mad like that. And he did have lots of emulators. Sort of a sideshow aspect to it, I think. Religion is definitely a performance art, and has a long history to show for it. The anger bit is rude, though. Y'know, settle down Beavis - take it outside please.
Frank123lol: yelling is still yelling whether you are right or wrong.
Bramble: Fifteen years later, an adult way leader having a tantrum was 'spiritual anger,' and leaders imitated LCm's raging and snorting.
There was an odd license to snort that prevailed in the promiscuous land of Martindale, for sure. Which might be a weird testament to how boring it can get in WayWorld. Maybe it seemed kinda sexy to some of them. Gettin' all mad like that. And he did have lots of emulators. Sort of a sideshow aspect to it, I think. Religion is definitely a performance art, and has a long history to show for it. The anger bit is rude, though. Y'know, settle down Beavis - take it outside please.
Frank123lol: yelling is still yelling whether you are right or wrong.
Reminds me of a movie.. I think it had Dustin Hoffman in it as a blood sucking defense attourney.. he went nuts at the end.. or was it a moment of real sanity..
defending a child molester I think.. and at the jury trial, turned on his client..
I wonder if rico was at least half tempted at his moment before the press..
Reminds me of a movie.. I think it had Dustin Hoffman in it as a blood sucking defense attourney.. he went nuts at the end.. or was it a moment of real sanity..
defending a child molester I think.. and at the jury trial, turned on his client..
I wonder if rico was at least half tempted at his moment before the press..
Are you thinking of Devil's Advocate with Keaneau Reeves (sp?) and Al Pacino?
Al P plays The Devil in that one. Reeves plays the lawyer who gets the molester off. It's a good flick. I like Reeves, and Pacino's Pacino, what can you say?
Highway - that's actually the first time I've heard that the 'net didn't have a flat out "don't use it" dictum to it. Legitmiate purposes, makes sense. Although I still have a real problem with the idea of Wayfer's getting so deep into each others shorts. Encouragement, sure. Fine. They're entitled to live how they want as long as the don't break the law and don't interfere with others too much.
So now I'm wondering - was there a point where the collateral damage from the 'net was so high that they became more insistent? Or was it entirely focused on WayDale and other sites reporting negatively on the Way?
Mmm... not sure I have the 'scope' to answer you as far as "ministry-wide" on this but I can tell you what I do know first-hand.
Because I (and others in my area) spent our days working at a computer and often had to go online for our jobs, our local leadership told us more than once that it was okay for folks to utilize the internet for work or to go to a specific site like amazon.com to order a book or something. Since the BC was someone who kept his lips locked firmly on twi's backside, I'm pretty sure this was the ruling from HQ. I was also specifically told that surfing was a waste of time, and that there WERE anti-twi sites out there, that they were full of lies and run by copouts hoping to snag a few followers for themselves. Looking back it seems funny that they had to point out to us that intentionally looking up such sites was obviously gonna get you into spiritual dark-land because there was no reason for any right-thinking believer to do such a thing. Clearly they had to have known people were doing it, or at least tempted to do it even before the Allen lawsuit.
I do remember that as the lawsuit hit, and in the days after, the directive "Stay off the internet!!" was repeated more often and more frantically, with no clarifications, so I'm sure many people thought it meant stay off entirely. And maybe that's what they really did mean but I went by what I had originally been told was okay.
There is no question twi knew about WayDale long before most of us innies did, and I think you are right in assuming they knew the kind of damage it could do to them. A lot of us became disgruntled by the way they handled the lawsuit situation and went online looking for more information. (twi would have served their own purposes better by telling us a few more details, eh?) And yet, I NEVER expected to find a site like WayDale and I especially NEVER expected to find people I had admired and respected posting information there that very quickly brought it home to me that twi had been lying to me for a long, long time!
The funny thing is, I had done a search on twi and found (and read) a copy of POP about a year before I ever heard them say, "Don't surf the net." At that point I was still drinking the koolaid so it didn't impact me much, except to reinforce my perception that Geer was a arrogant idiot and that "those anti-way sites" were just run by evil, hateful, cop-out types. The WayGB just doesn't understand that if someone is happy with twi, it doesn't matter what they read, it will bounce right off them. But if someone has gotten to the point where they know in their own gut that something is rotten in Denmark, what others may say will only CONFIRM to them what they already think. Sorry guys... no devil spirit influence causing the change of heart, just cold hard facts.
Yep, I was one of those who drank so much kool-aid that when I did go on the internet and found some anti-way stuff, I was scared I would get possessed by spending time there. i would search only for little bits of time. Until I finally saw some things on my own in the real world...
Yep, I was one of those who drank so much kool-aid that when I did go on the internet and found some anti-way stuff, I was scared I would get possessed by spending time there. i would search only for little bits of time. Until I finally saw some things on my own in the real world...
:lol:
So you'd only get possessed a little at a time?
I'm reminded of Bill Cosby's routine, "The Chicken Heart that Ate New York." His parents convinced him to stay in his bed by telling him that there were snakes on the ground. Eventually, he sticks his toe out, telling the snakes that if they have to bite him, just make it a small one with no "snakey juice"!
Are you thinking of Devil's Advocate with Keaneau Reeves (sp?) and Al Pacino?
No, that wasn't it.. I can't find it with a google search either. I thought it was Hoffman..
maybe it was a mini-series..
he was defending some bigwig or judge who told him he was guilty.. and in court he lost it.. accused the client of doing the crime.. screaming and cursing.. and was dragged out of court screaming..
"When a judge is charged with rape, Arthur Kirkland is forced to defend him. Kirkland has had problems with the judge in the past, including one incident when the judge wrongly sentenced his client Jeff McCullaugh because of a technicality. Kirkland faces a moral and legal dilemma."
"Al Pacino is Arthur Kirkland, a sharp defence lawyer with a heart, who is dealing with a witch-hunting ethics tribunal, crazy and arrogant judges, an ill grandfather, a law partner (Tambor) on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and a new relationship. He definitely did not need the crazy new case that lands on his lap in the form of his least favourite judge, Henry T. Fleming. Soon, Arthur is faced with some decisions that will challenge his beliefs and affect his future."
"It tells the story of a Baltimore defense lawyer named Arthur Kirkland (played by Al Pacino). In the film, Kirkland finds himself blackmailed into defending corrupt judge Henry T. Fleming (played by John Forsythe) for a rape charge, even though the two men personally loathe each other."
"This film includes a well-known scene in which Kirkland shouts at Judge Rayford.
"Mr. Kirkland, you are out of order".
"You're out of order! You're out of order! The whole trial is out of order! They're out of order!"
Yeah I know! It's so crazy thinking back--even while I was typing that line I was amused and thought exactly what you wrote--get possessed a little at a time. I was SO petrified for those couple of years--I didn't even realize my spouse wanted out too!
The WayGB just doesn't understand that if someone is happy with twi, it doesn't matter what they read, it will bounce right off them. But if someone has gotten to the point where they know in their own gut that something is rotten in Denmark, what others may say will only CONFIRM to them what they already think. Sorry guys... no devil spirit influence causing the change of heart, just cold hard facts.
Highway, and Penguin, thanks for your posts.
I was scared I would get possessed by spending time there.
It's bizarre, no question about it. By hiding things, not telling all they knew and basically lying to people, the Way leadership tilled the soil for the seeds of their own corruption to grow.
Doubt
Worry
Fear
Which results in unbelief.
That's their mantra. Well, by not holding forth the honest truths and facts of what was going on in a timely manner, doubt in their integrity was produced when anyone learned more. People tell themselves, well there's a reason they're not telling us. There must be a good reason. But after awhile, they realize - there's no good reason, they're just not trusting us to know the whole truth. So distrust increases, on both sides.
Worry's a reasonable outcome of that - worry as to why? Why not be honest? Why allow the "other side" to tell their story and not tell theirs? Is something wrong? A person can tell themselves nothing's wrong over and over but a person's natural desire to protect themselves and those close to them will kick in at some point - it should.
Fear - the honest expectation that what's going on needs to be avoided is the natural outcome of that. And the "super" natural outcome too - the spiritually minded person wil smell a rat because the progression isn't a positive one, it's a negative one.
That's why - from a Wayfer's view - Magnelli's claims and statements are so clearly a problem. What he said they'd do makes sense - well, sure! Of course, that's the right way to handle this, and they will.
When they didn't, you had to figure something was wrong. Even if it was just observation over time of the lack of information a lot of people are just going to figure something's wrong and want to resolve it.
Some people didn't - don't - care. So it won't ever matter to them. Until it becomes personal and then as you say, it'll be different.
Ultimately IMO what was 'wrong' wasn't limited to Martindale's lawsuit, it was the entire shifty less-than-upfront manner in which they handled their people.
I was in-rez with Rico and he was a delight... just a guy who was full of life and joy and enthusiasm for God back then. It's so sad to see what he has become. But once you buy into the big lie that twi is the best (aka ONLY) way to know and worship God, and you start climbing that leadership ladder, it's pretty hard to turn back. I think he is convinced that by keeping twi's lockbox secure, and keeping "god's ministry" safe from outside interference, he is doing God's most holy work. Really sad.
I knew Rico, he was the WOW Program Director the year I went WOW, I had to deal with him several times on the phone and other wise.
Here's how I feel about him, I feel he is just a straight up filthy liar. I thought his wife was cute though.
I also felt Rico was a pimp for LCM Don and Howard picking all the hot tail from the WOW field for them to pillage, this is just how I feel, there may be no basis in fact for any of this.
Any way that felt good to get off my chest.
Seth
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread...
But I wanted to add that I ran into Rico a few times during his interim Corps year in So. Illinois (he was in Carbondale, I was in Belleville). He was, in fact, highly enthusiastic (to put it mildly). In fact, it was his enthusiasm (along with ROA 88) that was one of the primary drivers that moved me to disappear off the face of the TWI earth. (When I had a military permanent change of station I didn't bother to leave a forwarding address for TWI)
So while I would put him in the kool-aide drinking mind-numbed jerk category, I am, in a way, thankful that I ran into him.
But I wanted to add that I ran into Rico a few times during his interim Corps year in So. Illinois (he was in Carbondale, I was in Belleville). He was, in fact, highly enthusiastic (to put it mildly). In fact, it was his enthusiasm (along with ROA 88) that was one of the primary drivers that moved me to disappear off the face of the TWI earth. (When I had a military permanent change of station I didn't bother to leave a forwarding address for TWI)
So while I would put him in the kool-aide drinking mind-numbed jerk category, I am, in a way, thankful that I ran into him.
FWIW
I agree on this time-table... the delightful Rico I remember fondly was from our first year in-rez. Our last year in, he was already well along on the leadership track. (Anyone who has been through corps training will tell you they knew exactly who was pegged for upper leadership positions long before graduation!)
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GeorgeStGeorge
Interesting post, Chas. It sort of begs the question, "What would TWI be like now if they HAD told the membership what was going on?" There probably would have been an exodus of the outraged, but I suspect that a lot of others would have remained, because it was the stonewalling that turned them off. Of course, I doubt that Rosie and the others are kicking themselves over it, since they STILL haven't come clean, and are unlikely to do so.
George
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socks
ChasU: I remember the tape that LCM sent out to household fellowship coordinators and their assistants back in 1999, when we were told, "Stay off the internet!" It was then that I KNEW something ugly was brewing. So, I went on the internet to find out what it was! Viva Waydale!
We often were told "it's none of your business!" or "why do you want to know?" or "you'll find out what you need to know when you need to know it!"
"You were such a great believer once and we really thought you'd go in the Corps and really make something of your life.
It was on Waydale that MANY innies were able to learn what was really going on. They stopped asking leadership what had happened or why because they got their answers from a much better source.
TWI Gestapo shouldn't have been surprised when people sought other sources for their information
IF TWI Gestapo had been smart.....
G.St.G: It sort of begs the question, "What would TWI be like now if they HAD told the membership what was going on?" There probably would have been an exodus of the outraged, but I suspect that a lot of others would have remained, because it was the stonewalling that turned them off.
Their pattern was duplicitous, to say the least. Tell certain things, the most basic high level information that wouldn't elude to the fact that anything was really wrong but paint the problem as one of malcontents making trouble. Tell everyone not to go on the internet and start poking around. (knowing WayDale's online)
(Keeping in mind that even as LCM said that he knew completely different. He knew the bell ringer was gearing up for a tollin').
(Also keep in mind that they went from 0 to 90 in just a few months, with LCM ultimately being fired and stripped of all official status and recognition with the Way. SOMEthing must have been brewing all those months that wasn't uh, salted.)
Then - if anyone asks about anything that wasn't covrered in the meetings or letters or tapes - it's a dead giveaway that they've been getting information from alternative sources. A ha!!! You've been on the internet, exercising your God-given right to choose, think and evaluate. No WONDER you're at cross purposes to the Way!
They think. Apparently they were assuming that no one else is thinking because if anyone is, they're bound to come up with a few questions with or without the internet, regardless. Like "What's going on?"
Again - the horse that can't be beat - Rico Magnelli's statement to make these matters visible and clear to their membership was a mighty claim, honorable and full or promise. If only it had been so.
I agree GeorgeStGeorge - in theory. I would think that if there had been some reasonable effort to provide the kind of A-to-Z detail that was promised, a lot of people might have acted differently.
Like, they might have tried to actively help, instead of being asked to loiter around with prayer cloths in-hand, waiting for the Next Big Lie to come down the pike.
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shazdancer
If they ever got honest, they would have to step down, and kiss the lifestyle they've been leading good-bye. Sadly, they are able to live with themselves.
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Twinky
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
You ... you stay off the internet. Dangerous stuff out there (might blow a hole in our cover).
But we ... we have to get on the Internet. To see what's going on and thereby protect the household.
Looks like they don't even recognize the double standard.
THW, what an insane story of how they tracked you down and confronted you. Great response from you!
Insane to think that people would stay off the net when in fact many were already used to using it a great deal in their work / professional life to find out information. TWI must have had some wonderful ideas about "obedience" to think that issuing a demand like "stay off the internet" would be other than an invitation to use the net find out.
Or perhaps it was a cunning ploy by M@gnelli to make sure that the information got out, that he knew he wasn't allowed to say?
Livinlarge: stay safe. Thanks for your input.
Remind me again how I got tied up with this mad bunch. No - don't!
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TheHighWay
Well, keep in mind the "stay off the internet" command actually started when the net was fairly new and not everyone had access at home and at work. Even during the first lawsuit it wasn't meant to say you couldn't use the internet for "legitimate purposes". What they meant was "don't randomly surf the net with little or no specific purpose in mind"... You know, an idle mind is the devil's playground.
Of course, they felt justified in saying this because it fell right in step with their dictates about using time wisely (hence having us all submit weekly schedules broken into 15-minute increments)... uh, duh, like taking over an hour each week to sketch out such a schedule was deemed good use of time, lol.
Once the lawsuits hit it became: Don't go looking for trouble. (aka Don't go looking for dirt on twi.) Since no rule-abiding twi-bot would have a website of any kind, let alone one about twi, OF COURSE the only thing you could possibly find was a bunch of low-life copouts spewing a bunch of lies about twi, so why would you even look in the first place?
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Bramble
I think people who stay in for a long time( i stayed in for 20 years) do make changes to allow certain behaviors to exist. I think it is called cognitive dissonance.
As a young woman I despised temper tantrums in adults of college age and lost respect for those who threw them, which kept or got me out of some relationships, which was not a bad thing.
Fifteen years later, an adult way leader having a tantrum was 'spiritual anger,' and leaders imitated LCm's raging and snorting. This came to be some kind of indication of the heavy spiritual happenings, world shaking importance of the ministry and our 'stand'.
Attitude was -- "Whoa, this situation is sooo spiritually dark and dangerous", NOT "Whoa, what a manipulative idiot."
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frank123lol
Yes.yelling is still yelling whether you are right or wrong.
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socks
I'll keep pickin' away here, hope you don't mind.
Highway: Well, keep in mind the "stay off the internet" command actually started when the net was fairly new and not everyone had access at home and at work. Even during the first lawsuit it wasn't meant to say you couldn't use the internet for "legitimate purposes". What they meant was "don't randomly surf the net with little or no specific purpose in mind"... You know, an idle mind is the devil's playground.
Highway - that's actually the first time I've heard that the 'net didn't have a flat out "don't use it" dictum to it. Legitmiate purposes, makes sense. Although I still have a real problem with the idea of Wayfer's getting so deep into each others shorts. Encouragement, sure. Fine. They're entitled to live how they want as long as the don't break the law and don't interfere with others too much.
So now I'm wondering - was there a point where the collateral damage from the 'net was so high that they became more insistent? Or was it entirely focused on WayDale and other sites reporting negatively on the Way?
Bramble: Fifteen years later, an adult way leader having a tantrum was 'spiritual anger,' and leaders imitated LCm's raging and snorting.
There was an odd license to snort that prevailed in the promiscuous land of Martindale, for sure. Which might be a weird testament to how boring it can get in WayWorld. Maybe it seemed kinda sexy to some of them. Gettin' all mad like that. And he did have lots of emulators. Sort of a sideshow aspect to it, I think. Religion is definitely a performance art, and has a long history to show for it. The anger bit is rude, though. Y'know, settle down Beavis - take it outside please.
Frank123lol: yelling is still yelling whether you are right or wrong.
So true.
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Bramble
So true. Flash and dash can take you a long way.
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Ham
Reminds me of a movie.. I think it had Dustin Hoffman in it as a blood sucking defense attourney.. he went nuts at the end.. or was it a moment of real sanity..
defending a child molester I think.. and at the jury trial, turned on his client..
I wonder if rico was at least half tempted at his moment before the press..
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Oakspear
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socks
That may have been the one - Ham?
Al P plays The Devil in that one. Reeves plays the lawyer who gets the molester off. It's a good flick. I like Reeves, and Pacino's Pacino, what can you say?
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TheHighWay
Mmm... not sure I have the 'scope' to answer you as far as "ministry-wide" on this but I can tell you what I do know first-hand.
Because I (and others in my area) spent our days working at a computer and often had to go online for our jobs, our local leadership told us more than once that it was okay for folks to utilize the internet for work or to go to a specific site like amazon.com to order a book or something. Since the BC was someone who kept his lips locked firmly on twi's backside, I'm pretty sure this was the ruling from HQ. I was also specifically told that surfing was a waste of time, and that there WERE anti-twi sites out there, that they were full of lies and run by copouts hoping to snag a few followers for themselves. Looking back it seems funny that they had to point out to us that intentionally looking up such sites was obviously gonna get you into spiritual dark-land because there was no reason for any right-thinking believer to do such a thing. Clearly they had to have known people were doing it, or at least tempted to do it even before the Allen lawsuit.
I do remember that as the lawsuit hit, and in the days after, the directive "Stay off the internet!!" was repeated more often and more frantically, with no clarifications, so I'm sure many people thought it meant stay off entirely. And maybe that's what they really did mean but I went by what I had originally been told was okay.
There is no question twi knew about WayDale long before most of us innies did, and I think you are right in assuming they knew the kind of damage it could do to them. A lot of us became disgruntled by the way they handled the lawsuit situation and went online looking for more information. (twi would have served their own purposes better by telling us a few more details, eh?) And yet, I NEVER expected to find a site like WayDale and I especially NEVER expected to find people I had admired and respected posting information there that very quickly brought it home to me that twi had been lying to me for a long, long time!
The funny thing is, I had done a search on twi and found (and read) a copy of POP about a year before I ever heard them say, "Don't surf the net." At that point I was still drinking the koolaid so it didn't impact me much, except to reinforce my perception that Geer was a arrogant idiot and that "those anti-way sites" were just run by evil, hateful, cop-out types. The WayGB just doesn't understand that if someone is happy with twi, it doesn't matter what they read, it will bounce right off them. But if someone has gotten to the point where they know in their own gut that something is rotten in Denmark, what others may say will only CONFIRM to them what they already think. Sorry guys... no devil spirit influence causing the change of heart, just cold hard facts.
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penguin
Yep, I was one of those who drank so much kool-aid that when I did go on the internet and found some anti-way stuff, I was scared I would get possessed by spending time there. i would search only for little bits of time. Until I finally saw some things on my own in the real world...
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GeorgeStGeorge
:lol:
So you'd only get possessed a little at a time?
I'm reminded of Bill Cosby's routine, "The Chicken Heart that Ate New York." His parents convinced him to stay in his bed by telling him that there were snakes on the ground. Eventually, he sticks his toe out, telling the snakes that if they have to bite him, just make it a small one with no "snakey juice"!
Glad you found your way out, Penguin!
George
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Ham
No, that wasn't it.. I can't find it with a google search either. I thought it was Hoffman..
maybe it was a mini-series..
he was defending some bigwig or judge who told him he was guilty.. and in court he lost it.. accused the client of doing the crime.. screaming and cursing.. and was dragged out of court screaming..
anybody remember this?
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WordWolf
"And Justice For All".
Some synopses:
"When a judge is charged with rape, Arthur Kirkland is forced to defend him. Kirkland has had problems with the judge in the past, including one incident when the judge wrongly sentenced his client Jeff McCullaugh because of a technicality. Kirkland faces a moral and legal dilemma."
"Al Pacino is Arthur Kirkland, a sharp defence lawyer with a heart, who is dealing with a witch-hunting ethics tribunal, crazy and arrogant judges, an ill grandfather, a law partner (Tambor) on the verge of a nervous breakdown, and a new relationship. He definitely did not need the crazy new case that lands on his lap in the form of his least favourite judge, Henry T. Fleming. Soon, Arthur is faced with some decisions that will challenge his beliefs and affect his future."
"It tells the story of a Baltimore defense lawyer named Arthur Kirkland (played by Al Pacino). In the film, Kirkland finds himself blackmailed into defending corrupt judge Henry T. Fleming (played by John Forsythe) for a rape charge, even though the two men personally loathe each other."
"This film includes a well-known scene in which Kirkland shouts at Judge Rayford.
"Mr. Kirkland, you are out of order".
"You're out of order! You're out of order! The whole trial is out of order! They're out of order!"
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penguin
Yeah I know! It's so crazy thinking back--even while I was typing that line I was amused and thought exactly what you wrote--get possessed a little at a time. I was SO petrified for those couple of years--I didn't even realize my spouse wanted out too!
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socks
The WayGB just doesn't understand that if someone is happy with twi, it doesn't matter what they read, it will bounce right off them. But if someone has gotten to the point where they know in their own gut that something is rotten in Denmark, what others may say will only CONFIRM to them what they already think. Sorry guys... no devil spirit influence causing the change of heart, just cold hard facts.
Highway, and Penguin, thanks for your posts.
I was scared I would get possessed by spending time there.
It's bizarre, no question about it. By hiding things, not telling all they knew and basically lying to people, the Way leadership tilled the soil for the seeds of their own corruption to grow.
Doubt
Worry
Fear
Which results in unbelief.
That's their mantra. Well, by not holding forth the honest truths and facts of what was going on in a timely manner, doubt in their integrity was produced when anyone learned more. People tell themselves, well there's a reason they're not telling us. There must be a good reason. But after awhile, they realize - there's no good reason, they're just not trusting us to know the whole truth. So distrust increases, on both sides.
Worry's a reasonable outcome of that - worry as to why? Why not be honest? Why allow the "other side" to tell their story and not tell theirs? Is something wrong? A person can tell themselves nothing's wrong over and over but a person's natural desire to protect themselves and those close to them will kick in at some point - it should.
Fear - the honest expectation that what's going on needs to be avoided is the natural outcome of that. And the "super" natural outcome too - the spiritually minded person wil smell a rat because the progression isn't a positive one, it's a negative one.
That's why - from a Wayfer's view - Magnelli's claims and statements are so clearly a problem. What he said they'd do makes sense - well, sure! Of course, that's the right way to handle this, and they will.
When they didn't, you had to figure something was wrong. Even if it was just observation over time of the lack of information a lot of people are just going to figure something's wrong and want to resolve it.
Some people didn't - don't - care. So it won't ever matter to them. Until it becomes personal and then as you say, it'll be different.
Ultimately IMO what was 'wrong' wasn't limited to Martindale's lawsuit, it was the entire shifty less-than-upfront manner in which they handled their people.
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markomalley
Sorry to resurrect a somewhat old thread...
But I wanted to add that I ran into Rico a few times during his interim Corps year in So. Illinois (he was in Carbondale, I was in Belleville). He was, in fact, highly enthusiastic (to put it mildly). In fact, it was his enthusiasm (along with ROA 88) that was one of the primary drivers that moved me to disappear off the face of the TWI earth. (When I had a military permanent change of station I didn't bother to leave a forwarding address for TWI)
So while I would put him in the kool-aide drinking mind-numbed jerk category, I am, in a way, thankful that I ran into him.
FWIW
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TheHighWay
I agree on this time-table... the delightful Rico I remember fondly was from our first year in-rez. Our last year in, he was already well along on the leadership track. (Anyone who has been through corps training will tell you they knew exactly who was pegged for upper leadership positions long before graduation!)
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