What a surprise! I too recently had my 35th high school reunion ... but all the ones of us who had been in TWI have left, long since ... and there were quite a few of us that were.
I think his statement about "quite a few of us" is a relative term ... I doubt if there are more than several thousand in the entire nation, much down from the reputed 100,000 in the US at TWI's peak.
The M&A is not really in effect. My family can come and go as they please and we haven't given abs in years or really heavily involved. I know I sure haven't! My little brother goes when he wants and they don't get hiffy. My mom was just at headquarters with my dad's ashes and she hasn't done anything remotely TWIish in a while. She did go back to fellowships until just a couple months ago.
I don't think TWI can afford to be snooty "get outta my club house" brats anymore.
Although if I am a guessing woman I would say that if one went to one of their fellowships and act like an arse then you will probably get kicked out. Sort of like if you went into ANY church and acted out that you would asked to leave.
What a surprise! I too recently had my 35th high school reunion ... but all the ones of us who had been in TWI have left, long since ... and there were quite a few of us that were.
I think his statement about "quite a few of us" is a relative term ... I doubt if there are more than several thousand in the entire nation, much down from the reputed 100,000 in the US at TWI's peak.
Unless they got several thousand new people, I'm of the opinion there's less than 5000 twi-ers
nationwide, and that's including children. I'd guess the number closer to something like
3500 nationwide, supposing attrition hasn't completely stopped or reversed.
As to the reputed 100,000, that was an inflated number, too.
That was the WORLDWIDE total, of people who ever SIGNED UP for pfal.
That includes the people who signed up and never showed up for Session 1,
the Session 1 attendees who didn't complete the class,
the pfal grads who left immediately after the class,
and the pfal grads who only stayed for 1-3 months.
Across the entire history of twi.
I don't know about how many REAL twi-ers that translated to.
As one example, when I took pfal, there were 8 people signed up,
7 people who showed up to Session 1,
and THREE of us who completed Session 12.
(However, all three were regulars who stuck around.)
I always thought the 100,000 number was stretching it.
I can't deny that the way amassed quite a horde in the 70's, early 80's though. Especially when you consider that it was mostly by nomadic, unfocused in life, young people talking others into sitting through a frankly boring class that required 4 hours a night, several nights for weeks.
Then of course there were the endless meetings, classes, events,programs, and whatever after you finished. That they could keep a great number of people that involved (often through fear, but that's another topic), is an amazing feat of sorts.
The way I saw it practiced in the nineties was if someone was specifically marked and avoided(like we were) then they were bad news, stay away or risk getting spiritually contaminated.
Most Way innies we knew in the day stil M&A us.
People that left in the late eighties weren't necessarily marked and avoided, they were just cop outs, Way folk could visist with them.
Remember, too, way innies believe that mainstream churches with their Trinity and dead up in heaven are devil spirit inspired, so they may not think you have any wisdom.
Remember, too, way innies believe that mainstream churches with their Trinity and dead up in heaven are devil spirit inspired, so they may not think you have any wisdom.
He wouldn't be the first person I did look up his address. He appears to be in a house, but have no idea if he owns it. I might have a friend who has access to tax records check that out.
I used to take a pretty heavy stance against the trinity, but as I've grown older I've lightened up considerably on that issue.
He wouldn't be the first person I did look up his address. He appears to be in a house, but have no idea if he owns it. I might have a friend who has access to tax records check that out.
That almost sounds like stalking someone or at the very least invading their privacy. Why don't you just ask them yourselves? I have a few friends who have access to information like that. Sometimes when they offer to look info up for me or someone else it sort of freaks me out and ....es me off. I always politely decline but I can't help but think they are taking their position way too lightly. I worked at a school and I had access to student's grades, schedules, socials and tax information etc etc etc... I don't think anyone would have liked it if I just handed out that info like candy.
BTW - They actually don't mind you buying homes anymore either even if he doesn't own his - before I stopped talking to my friend she said they were looking into purchasing a house.
However - I do KNOW they still cling to that like-minded nonsense that absolutely keeps them from accepting you on any level unless you look like you are heading in the same direction they are.
That almost sounds like stalking someone or at the very least invading their privacy. Why don't you just ask them yourselves?
I think you are confused. Whether someone owns a home is a matter of public record and is not subject to any privacy laws. I can either find out by accessing the public tax records in the Assessor's office or the public records that are in the Recorder's office. Offering to look up that information is not stalking, nor is it a breach of privacy.
I have a few friends who have access to information like that. Sometimes when they offer to look info up for me or someone else it sort of freaks me out and ....es me off. I always politely decline but I can't help but think they are taking their position way too lightly. I worked at a school and I had access to student's grades, schedules, socials and tax information etc etc etc... I don't think anyone would have liked it if I just handed out that info like candy.
Since you haven't provided any specific instances of what info people have offered to look up on your behalf, I can't comment on whether they were acting unethically in offering to look up information, nor can I draw any parallels to how that fits in with your job at a school as it is against the law to provide anything beyond "directory" information about students without express written permission by the parent or guardian, or student if s/he is over 18. What I do find intriguing is that you apparently have no problem talking about other people's business, but appear to draw the line when it comes to verifying. I'm not convinced that you're taking the high road by drawing the line there.
Either way, my suggestion is that if you don't want others to offer to look up info for you that you refrain from wondering out loud about other people's business, especially when you consider such things private matters. Then getting p!$$ed off when offered help is a non-issue.
As far as my concern for K!m as a life-long friend and classmate, I'd like nothing better than to sit down with him and find out where his head is. Knowing that he's stayed in TWI after all these years tells me that doing so would be more frustrating than satisfying.
Tzaia, now that you have posted the information here, don't be surprised if he is contacted by TWI and told under no circumstances to avoid you like the devil spirit possessed heathen that you are.
I'm pretty certain that the WAYGB still monitors us here at the cafe. :)
Last night I was at my 35 yr high school reunion. One or two of my classmates (maybe 3) were in TWI, but this one I knew in particular was because we had talked about it at length - back in 1983. So I walked up to him later and asked him when he left (because I assumed he had enough sense to leave) only to find out he's still involved. He indicated there were a fair number of people involved. He asked me why I left. I told him I would like to sit down and give him the specifics, but now was not a good time.
I told him we belonged to a mainstream church now and were very relieved at being away from TWI. I do plan to contact him because I want to see if "mark and avoid" is still in full force.
It should be interesting. I'll keep y'all updated.
BTW, his name is K!m H3nders0n. I do believe he graduated from the corps back in the 80's, but I'm not sure.
Yeah Tzaia, I knew the guy back in the early 80's in TWI. I was in a Way Home that he ran back in 82-83. When (or if?) you meet up with him again, tell him Garth P. says "Hiya, from a fellow yardape!". He'll know what I'm talking about. ;) Too bad to hear that he's still in tho'. :(
But if he asks, go ahead and give him my email. (If you can't find it, PM me, and I'll send it to ya.
I'm pretty certain that the WAYGB still monitors us here at the cafe. :)[/color]
If WAYGB is monitoring the site, I wish I can flick the birdie at them.
Going back to the topic, if the person is still in TWI, that's his/her prerrogative and their lives. They are adults and mature enough to make their own decisions just like we made our decision not to be in TWI.
BTW, to the TWI security who's reading this: "F-U and F your organization."
Going back to the topic, if the person is still in TWI, that's his/her prerrogative and their lives. They are adults and mature enough to make their own decisions just like we made our decision not to be in TWI.
Totally agree. I'm just fascinated by the idea of someone choosing to stay. Is it due to willful ignorance or what?
Tzaia, now that you have posted the information here, don't be surprised if he is contacted by TWI and told under no circumstances to avoid you like the devil spirit possessed heathen that you are.
I'm pretty certain that the WAYGB still monitors us here at the cafe. :)
Of course they do - how else can they justify their existence??
If WAYGB is monitoring the site, I wish I can flick the birdie at them.
Going back to the topic, if the person is still in TWI, that's his/her prerrogative and their lives. They are adults and mature enough to make their own decisions just like we made our decision not to be in TWI.
BTW, to the TWI security who's reading this: "F-U and F your organization."
Adults, mature enough, and make their own decisions is debatable.
It perplexes me as well why people would choose to stay with this group, so, I intend to find out. I suspect the reasons are much the same for Mormons. For Mormons, they seem to stay for the close knit community and family relationships. I know that's what I found appealing about the Latter Day Saints. I was a misfit everywhere I went, but this group was willing to accept me just the way I was--society's unwanted. Granted, I have strong theological convictions that prevented me from going any further, but it would be easy to fall into the arms of Latter Day Saint love and forsake convictions. These groups prey on those who find themselves on the fringes emotionally. It's easy to turn a blind eye when all you want is to be loved and accepted. Acceptance is a need we all have, and it runs to the core of who we are. All our problems can be traced back to Acceptance in one form or another if the problem is followed to it's root. Ask a psychologist.
Any psychologists available to expound on the topic?
It perplexes me as well why people would choose to stay with this group, so, I intend to find out. I suspect the reasons are much the same for Mormons. For Mormons, they seem to stay for the close knit community and family relationships. I know that's what I found appealing about the Latter Day Saints. I was a misfit everywhere I went, but this group was willing to accept me just the way I was--society's unwanted. Granted, I have strong theological convictions that prevented me from going any further, but it would be easy to fall into the arms of Latter Day Saint love and forsake convictions. These groups prey on those who find themselves on the fringes emotionally. It's easy to turn a blind eye when all you want is to be loved and accepted. Acceptance is a need we all have, and it runs to the core of who we are. All our problems can be traced back to Acceptance in one form or another if the problem is followed to it's root. Ask a psychologist.
Any psychologists available to expound on the topic?
Hummm, acceptance?
Good point, ihrleben. Welcome to the cafe, btw.
But, you're only accepted in these groups if you conform. Maybe the acceptance piece is why we were willing to conform to at least part of what they wanted to mold us into.
Any psychologists available to expound on the topic?
I'm not a psychologist, but I've spent enough time on the other side to have an opinion. Based upon what I've read, the vast majority of people who are involved in a cult are cut out of one of 2 cloths. 1 cloth is the "misfit" cloth. Whether that designation is due to upbringing or thought patterns, it seems like we are attracted to "fitting in" to something. The other cloth is based on some sort of personality disorder. Cults attract more than their fair share of bipolar, borderline, obsessive-compulsive, dependent, and narcissistic personalities with a smattering of anti-social thrown in for good measure. For the bipolar and borderline, belonging to a cult gives a sense of "stability" in what is a tumultuous world. For an OC, the structure is comforting. For the narcissistic, it allows the "me" to be glorified. For the dependent there's always someone there, For the anti-social, it (the cult dynamic) allows them to operate openly.
Most of us former (and current) culties had (have) a strong aversion to "normal" because normal (didn't) hasn't (meet) met our needs. The other side is that some of us had not experienced normal, so we have nothing to compare the cult dynamic to in our lives. I have met very few people in cults who led "normal" lives before their involvement in a cult.
My friend Pastor June says, "Everybody seems normal until you get to know them." Then there are those of us who are openly dysfunctional and we scare the crap out of normal people.
Most of us former (and current) culties had (have) a strong aversion to "normal" because normal (didn't) hasn't (meet) met our needs. The other side is that some of us had not experienced normal, so we have nothing to compare the cult dynamic to in our lives. I have met very few people in cults who led "normal" lives before their involvement in a cult.
Based upon what I've read, the vast majority of people who are involved in a cult are cut out of one of 2 cloths. 1 cloth is the "misfit" cloth. Whether that designation is due to upbringing or thought patterns, it seems like we are attracted to "fitting in" to something. The other cloth is based on some sort of personality disorder.
Hmmm. Well.. that doesn't leave me with a lot of options..
:biglaugh:
well.. I'm in good company here..
:biglaugh:
I once told a group of ex-culties that "I am not inferior to you.. you're every bit as dysfunctional and screwed up as I am.."
Hmmm. Well.. that doesn't leave me with a lot of options..
:biglaugh:
well.. I'm in good company here..
:biglaugh:
I once told a group of ex-culties that "I am not inferior to you.. you're every bit as dysfunctional and screwed up as I am.."
well.. it's true..
heheh.
When I was able to look objectively into the whole thing and saw what I did and why, the notion of being all f'ed up wasn't all that hard to deal with. Being f'ed up is only bad if it's a continual state that you refuse to acknowledge.
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DogLover
What a surprise! I too recently had my 35th high school reunion ... but all the ones of us who had been in TWI have left, long since ... and there were quite a few of us that were.
I think his statement about "quite a few of us" is a relative term ... I doubt if there are more than several thousand in the entire nation, much down from the reputed 100,000 in the US at TWI's peak.
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Nero
The M&A is not really in effect. My family can come and go as they please and we haven't given abs in years or really heavily involved. I know I sure haven't! My little brother goes when he wants and they don't get hiffy. My mom was just at headquarters with my dad's ashes and she hasn't done anything remotely TWIish in a while. She did go back to fellowships until just a couple months ago.
I don't think TWI can afford to be snooty "get outta my club house" brats anymore.
Although if I am a guessing woman I would say that if one went to one of their fellowships and act like an arse then you will probably get kicked out. Sort of like if you went into ANY church and acted out that you would asked to leave.
...
But they are still crazy. ;)
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WordWolf
Unless they got several thousand new people, I'm of the opinion there's less than 5000 twi-ers
nationwide, and that's including children. I'd guess the number closer to something like
3500 nationwide, supposing attrition hasn't completely stopped or reversed.
As to the reputed 100,000, that was an inflated number, too.
That was the WORLDWIDE total, of people who ever SIGNED UP for pfal.
That includes the people who signed up and never showed up for Session 1,
the Session 1 attendees who didn't complete the class,
the pfal grads who left immediately after the class,
and the pfal grads who only stayed for 1-3 months.
Across the entire history of twi.
I don't know about how many REAL twi-ers that translated to.
As one example, when I took pfal, there were 8 people signed up,
7 people who showed up to Session 1,
and THREE of us who completed Session 12.
(However, all three were regulars who stuck around.)
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hiway29
I always thought the 100,000 number was stretching it.
I can't deny that the way amassed quite a horde in the 70's, early 80's though. Especially when you consider that it was mostly by nomadic, unfocused in life, young people talking others into sitting through a frankly boring class that required 4 hours a night, several nights for weeks.
Then of course there were the endless meetings, classes, events,programs, and whatever after you finished. That they could keep a great number of people that involved (often through fear, but that's another topic), is an amazing feat of sorts.
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Bramble
Mark and Avoid--
The way I saw it practiced in the nineties was if someone was specifically marked and avoided(like we were) then they were bad news, stay away or risk getting spiritually contaminated.
Most Way innies we knew in the day stil M&A us.
People that left in the late eighties weren't necessarily marked and avoided, they were just cop outs, Way folk could visist with them.
Remember, too, way innies believe that mainstream churches with their Trinity and dead up in heaven are devil spirit inspired, so they may not think you have any wisdom.
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Tzaia
He wouldn't be the first person
I did look up his address. He appears to be in a house, but have no idea if he owns it. I might have a friend who has access to tax records check that out.
I used to take a pretty heavy stance against the trinity, but as I've grown older I've lightened up considerably on that issue.
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Nero
That almost sounds like stalking someone or at the very least invading their privacy. Why don't you just ask them yourselves? I have a few friends who have access to information like that. Sometimes when they offer to look info up for me or someone else it sort of freaks me out and ....es me off. I always politely decline but I can't help but think they are taking their position way too lightly. I worked at a school and I had access to student's grades, schedules, socials and tax information etc etc etc... I don't think anyone would have liked it if I just handed out that info like candy.
BTW - They actually don't mind you buying homes anymore either even if he doesn't own his - before I stopped talking to my friend she said they were looking into purchasing a house.
However - I do KNOW they still cling to that like-minded nonsense that absolutely keeps them from accepting you on any level unless you look like you are heading in the same direction they are.
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Tzaia
I think you are confused. Whether someone owns a home is a matter of public record and is not subject to any privacy laws. I can either find out by accessing the public tax records in the Assessor's office or the public records that are in the Recorder's office. Offering to look up that information is not stalking, nor is it a breach of privacy.
Since you haven't provided any specific instances of what info people have offered to look up on your behalf, I can't comment on whether they were acting unethically in offering to look up information, nor can I draw any parallels to how that fits in with your job at a school as it is against the law to provide anything beyond "directory" information about students without express written permission by the parent or guardian, or student if s/he is over 18. What I do find intriguing is that you apparently have no problem talking about other people's business, but appear to draw the line when it comes to verifying. I'm not convinced that you're taking the high road by drawing the line there.
Either way, my suggestion is that if you don't want others to offer to look up info for you that you refrain from wondering out loud about other people's business, especially when you consider such things private matters. Then getting p!$$ed off when offered help is a non-issue.
As far as my concern for K!m as a life-long friend and classmate, I'd like nothing better than to sit down with him and find out where his head is. Knowing that he's stayed in TWI after all these years tells me that doing so would be more frustrating than satisfying.
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Belle
Tzaia, now that you have posted the information here, don't be surprised if he is contacted by TWI and told under no circumstances to avoid you like the devil spirit possessed heathen that you are.
I'm pretty certain that the WAYGB still monitors us here at the cafe. :)
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GarthP2000
Yeah Tzaia, I knew the guy back in the early 80's in TWI. I was in a Way Home that he ran back in 82-83. When (or if?) you meet up with him again, tell him Garth P. says "Hiya, from a fellow yardape!". He'll know what I'm talking about. ;) Too bad to hear that he's still in tho'. :(
But if he asks, go ahead and give him my email. (If you can't find it, PM me, and I'll send it to ya.
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FreeFromCults
If WAYGB is monitoring the site, I wish I can flick the birdie at them.
Going back to the topic, if the person is still in TWI, that's his/her prerrogative and their lives. They are adults and mature enough to make their own decisions just like we made our decision not to be in TWI.
BTW, to the TWI security who's reading this: "F-U and F your organization."
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Tzaia
Totally agree. I'm just fascinated by the idea of someone choosing to stay. Is it due to willful ignorance or what?
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frank123lol
Could be they like living in a fantasy land,where someone else thinks for them
Or the rut is so comfortable,it is easier to stay.After all it is davord.
As my old cynical bud said"No one else teaches the vord like the vey does".I almost gagged on that one.
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FreeFromCults
Absolutely!
They sure live by the saying "Ignorance is Bliss."
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ChasUFarley
Of course they do - how else can they justify their existence??
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Bolshevik
Things I've heard people (50 years and older) and in for more than 30 years, and still in, say:
"How was I suppossed to know?"
"The churches didn't teach us this stuff"
"I'm too old to change"
"Well, you don't know everything" (concerning religion)
"No church is perfect"
"All my friends are in it"
"Have you actually read the "Council of Nicea?"
"You have to pick a new church before you leave the old one. Which one is right?"
"All the bad people are gone"
"What they do at Headquarters and teach on the field are two different things"
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waysider
"All the bad people are gone" ------------------ :o
"What they do at Headquarters and teach on the field are two different things"
(Nice to see you, Mr. B.)
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waterbuffalo
Adults, mature enough, and make their own decisions is debatable.
As for the rest--you go girl!!!!!
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ihrleben
Good Day all!
It perplexes me as well why people would choose to stay with this group, so, I intend to find out. I suspect the reasons are much the same for Mormons. For Mormons, they seem to stay for the close knit community and family relationships. I know that's what I found appealing about the Latter Day Saints. I was a misfit everywhere I went, but this group was willing to accept me just the way I was--society's unwanted. Granted, I have strong theological convictions that prevented me from going any further, but it would be easy to fall into the arms of Latter Day Saint love and forsake convictions. These groups prey on those who find themselves on the fringes emotionally. It's easy to turn a blind eye when all you want is to be loved and accepted. Acceptance is a need we all have, and it runs to the core of who we are. All our problems can be traced back to Acceptance in one form or another if the problem is followed to it's root. Ask a psychologist.
Any psychologists available to expound on the topic?
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waterbuffalo
Hummm, acceptance?
Good point, ihrleben. Welcome to the cafe, btw.
But, you're only accepted in these groups if you conform. Maybe the acceptance piece is why we were willing to conform to at least part of what they wanted to mold us into.
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Tzaia
I'm not a psychologist, but I've spent enough time on the other side to have an opinion. Based upon what I've read, the vast majority of people who are involved in a cult are cut out of one of 2 cloths. 1 cloth is the "misfit" cloth. Whether that designation is due to upbringing or thought patterns, it seems like we are attracted to "fitting in" to something. The other cloth is based on some sort of personality disorder. Cults attract more than their fair share of bipolar, borderline, obsessive-compulsive, dependent, and narcissistic personalities with a smattering of anti-social thrown in for good measure. For the bipolar and borderline, belonging to a cult gives a sense of "stability" in what is a tumultuous world. For an OC, the structure is comforting. For the narcissistic, it allows the "me" to be glorified. For the dependent there's always someone there, For the anti-social, it (the cult dynamic) allows them to operate openly.
Most of us former (and current) culties had (have) a strong aversion to "normal" because normal (didn't) hasn't (meet) met our needs. The other side is that some of us had not experienced normal, so we have nothing to compare the cult dynamic to in our lives. I have met very few people in cults who led "normal" lives before their involvement in a cult.
My friend Pastor June says, "Everybody seems normal until you get to know them." Then there are those of us who are openly dysfunctional and we scare the crap out of normal people.
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TheHighWay
BINGO!
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Ham
Hmmm. Well.. that doesn't leave me with a lot of options..
well.. I'm in good company here..
I once told a group of ex-culties that "I am not inferior to you.. you're every bit as dysfunctional and screwed up as I am.."
well.. it's true..
heheh.
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Tzaia
When I was able to look objectively into the whole thing and saw what I did and why, the notion of being all f'ed up wasn't all that hard to deal with. Being f'ed up is only bad if it's a continual state that you refuse to acknowledge.
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