This is a very interesting account of divorce from GOD's viewpoint as he refers to himself as married to Israel, and Judah Her sister. This account expresses GOD's view concerning their
adulteries, whoredoms and divorcement from GOD. They seem very connected and inter-relating here.
Since GOD doesn't change; but is gracious and merciful and judges righteously, I think, (that is in my opinion) that the matters of judgment will go in accordance with the future
judgment of those under each different administration. It is so interesting to see how throughout all the ages GOD also is seeking reconciliation and recovery of All His Children!
That is Love like none of us can truly understand!
Bless GOD forever Our Dad!
King James Version (KJV) Jeremiah - Chapter 3
Jer 3:1 ¶ They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
Jer 3:4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou [art] the guide of my youth?
Jer 3:5 Will he reserve [his anger] for ever? will he keep [it] to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.
Jer 3:6 ¶ The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these [things], Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw [it].
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:11 ¶ And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
Jer 3:19 ¶ But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
Jer 3:20 Surely [as] a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:21 ¶ A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping [and] supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, [and] they have forgotten the LORD their God.
Jer 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, [and] I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou [art] the LORD our God.
How rare is this: I amazingly, enough edited this NOT for grammar, etc.; but to add these verses that reference divorce, (cause and effect):
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write
her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:3 And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took
her [to be] his wife;
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where [is] the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors [is it] to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your
iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.
I've always believed that if we're living according to the great commandments Jesus taught here, that we won't violate the Ten Commandments God gave the people back in Moses' day. Today I got to wondering if it's worse in God's eyes to commit adultery than it is to divorce.
If God allows divorce--gave it to Israel, but hates it--is it a sin when there is a way made for it?
Adultery is a sin-but God hates divorce -- Adultery seems worse.
What about in cases of abuse? I can't stand it when I read accounts of women submitting unto death to some abusive *%#@#($*. I wonder if THAT is "Biblical"
I did find an article on it once--I am quoting the conclusion(just read the fair use policy-duh) as I can't figure out how to link it. When someone is in an abusive situation--how can they even think clearly enough to work through this. Truth and judgement can become clouded. Get to saftey first!!
Biblical conditions for divorce would include adultery, abandonment, and abuse.
God does not want any couple to divorce. He stands ready to give hope, help, and healing.
God loves those who have experienced the pain of divorce. He still has a wonderful plan and purpose for their lives and ministries. Would any good father still love a child who experiences the pain of divorce? Your perfect Father in heaven does.
The Apostle Paul is proof. He was a Pharisee (Philippians 3:5), and was thus required to be married. By the time he wrote 1 Corinthians he was no longer married (1 Cor. 7:8), so that he was either a widower or a divorcee. He states in Philippians 3:8 that he "lost all things" when he gave his life to Christ; most scholars believe that he lost his wife when he became a Christian. In Paul's day, a Jew who converted to Christianity was considered dead by his family and wife. She was a widow, free to marry another Jew. We would say she divorced him. And he wrote half of the New Testament.
My husband and I, married in twi, subscribed to the "divorce is not an option" and beyond that, each believed it in our own hearts, shared vows together to express it and we were serious!
Probably too much so for our own good some days. But I don't recall believing it because the Bible said so or even because we shared the same passion about sticking together.
It seemed, to me, to be about integrity, about keeping my word and not entering into the marriage without information and enough discussion and analyzing 'til I'm sure he re-thought marrying me just for that.
(not really)
But, just because that was the choice we made for our own lives, didn't make it right or wrong for another couple or individual contemplating the idea of marriage.
I understand the Ten Commandments and certainly considered the adultry part of it for my marriage as whether it was one I could ever forgive if it were slapping me in my own face.
I like to think we would have been able to recover and regain footing enough to heal from it; thankfully it was never an option we had to take on.
But life happens, too, and I think we humans have to wonder about forgiveness and things like "do I love him/her enough to do the really hard work to fix this" or "am I hurt and angry enough to do the really hard work to get this apart?"
There are so often children involved in the marriage union. There are other family members. There are so many things to consider that go beyond the anger and hurt and fear and possibilities on either side of the issue.
I think God knows our human-ness, knows our stupid and it doesn't shock him much when either of those shine the brightest.
Personally, my marriage ended with my husbands death and I then moved on to wonder about the Widow gig and wanted nothing to do with that, too. Having no choice, I spent alot of time trying to figure out the 'now what' part of my life without a partner to finish the walk with me.
I felt betrayed by my husband in that too. Surely I could find a way to blame him for intentionally ending our marriage, if I but looked deep enough in the book that said Holy Bible on the cover.
It wasn't there.
There is always something, differant kinds of hurt, even betrayal, when two people decide to mix their lives together.
My daughter is 26, having been in a relationship with her fiance for 8 years now and it's way too easy for them to hurt the other with words, with actions that they don't mean. Or maybe they do. It's a differant generation with differant values and morals.
I think adultry is worse in the shock value department, maybe. Again I speak as one who hasn't suffered either that or divorce, but when a divorce is looming, don't each person sort of see it coming then either make the decision to do something or agree it's the better route?
In adultry, hindsight is always really sharp, but at the time, the thought of realizing our life partner has shared the most intimate and private of things with another person is torture.
Differant degrees of anger and pain, differant places of betrayal and often the cause of the divorce, of course.
We don't always do alot of things the Bible, or God himself tells us to do because we're humans and we make decisions otherwise. God not forgiving one more than another, I have trouble believing that most days.
My gig is whether or not we can forgive and still do our best to go into the next day, regardless of the wrong, to us or against us.
Jesus said that the divorce laws in OT were written because of the hardness of their hearts. He said what God joined together let no man tear apart.
But you can't determine another's freedom of will, you can't control it, and at times it's very small how you can even influence it. We are all broken. We all fall short.
That's where His love makes us whole in spite of that.
The Lord Jesus was very clear on the subject and HE narrowed it down to divorce being allowed only in the cases of adultery because some of the more liberal teachers of the law, such as R. Shammai, were teaching that if your wife burned your toast, it was ok to divorce her. What was also going on according to the literature of the day, was that men were simply tiring of their wives and kicking their wives out of HIS house, minus HER children that she had borne him. With out a bill of divorce according to the law, she could never remarry until her husband died. He went on to live with concubines (a sort of secondary wife) which was perfectly legal according to the law. However, since women had no standing in that type of society, she ended up either begging on the streets for her food or becoming a harlot in order to stay alive. This is why Moses began to allow divorce, because of the hardness of the men's hearts against their wives, but as the Lord Jesus stated, this was not so in the beginning with God.
If God allows divorce--gave it to Israel, but hates it--is it a sin when there is a way made for it?
Adultery is a sin-but God hates divorce -- Adultery seems worse.
What about in cases of abuse? I can't stand it when I read accounts of women submitting unto death to some abusive *%#@#($*. I wonder if THAT is "Biblical"
I did find an article on it once--I am quoting the conclusion(just read the fair use policy-duh) as I can't figure out how to link it. When someone is in an abusive situation--how can they even think clearly enough to work through this. Truth and judgement can become clouded. Get to saftey first!!
Abuse would definitely fall under "if she find no favor in his eyes..." Let's get real, if a man is beating the poop out of his wife at any time, HE DOESN'T LOVE HER! Despite what some of these men might tell their befuddled wives...."Oh, baby, I love you, I'll never do it again! Yeah Right! Like you said, Get to safety first, there is no sin involved in leaving an abusive mate.
Seems to me that God allows for divorce but not adultery.
There is no scripture that says under THESE conditions - go ahead and sleep together. But he does say there are conditions where you can divorce ... and a spouse commiting adultery is one. Seems like IT is worse.
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
And who is it "that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks"? from verse 1
What do you think in the case of a spouse that's in a coma or missing for years? I've heard that after 7 years one can have them declared legally dead and then you'd be free to move on, but 7 years is a long time to wait. Maybe it's that way because marriage should never be entered into lightly.
The bottom line for me on the divorce and adultery issue to me is that God called us to peace and He knows our hearts. I think it's best to keep our vows whenever possible, but if a marriage is beyond repair, divorce is way better than adultery or living out the rest of our lives in misery.
[/font] I think it's best to keep our vows whenever possible, but if a marriage is beyond repair, divorce is way better than adultery or living out the rest of our lives in misery.
Box, love how you always keep it that simple. Misery is each of those things, isn't it? Beyond repair, divorce, adultery.
We, as strong women especially, can use that strength for good. I understand that your original point or question wasn't directed just at women, but I happen to be one, so can only speak from that lens or my own experience.
If I'm in a marriage and it's understood that the really hard work might involve any of those three, I'm going to be 1. hurting and 2. having to make some really tough choices.
As you said, God looks on our hearts and I think He expects us to enter into such a wonderful amazing laborious union with our eyes open and our hearts completely ready and willing to take on whatever it brings.
The good, the bad and the "oh shi+ what have I done?". Everything.
If something as drastic as adultery enters into the threads of that, of course choices have to be made and we live with the results, both parties involved. Or all three or more.
Forgiveness is part of the equation, betrayal, pain that digs deeper than some days are manageable, but we've got choices, thankfully. I believe God gets that.
What if you were slapped around by your family and forced to marry someone? You NEVER loved them. You pray that the lord take you home and you keep “your arranged marriage” as some kind of dirty secret?. Are you married?
To me, you are no more married than if you were held at gun point and forced to perform a homosexual act – then you are expected to be homo sexual.
Yet, Christians found in arranged marriages from other countries have gone to counseling to the church and been told that God will not “approve of their divorce” and if one divorces the other God will not “allow” then to get married again. You might think “oh so what?”, but suppose it is a Chinese or Indian or African Christian Minister who is so unhappy he prays to “go home” and nobody knows.
Arranged Marriages and Divorce. When do we stop telling people what to do? Will God allow these people to get divorced and fall in love?
Look how desperate these people are --
Dad kills daughter who wanted out of arranged marriage
"Apparently she and the father had argued over the marriage and the fact that it was arranged, and at some point during the altercation he did end up killing his daughter," said Clayton County Police spokesman Tim Owens.
He claims he was provoked into the attack by his wife's admissions she was having an affair and had never found him attractive during their arranged marriage.
'Vile murder' of girl set for arranged marriage.(News)
A MUSLIM teenager who feared she was being forced into an arranged marriage by her parents suffered a "vile murder", a coroner said yesterday.
Coroner for East and South Cumbria Ian Smith said the concept of an arranged marriage was "central" to the circumstances leading up to the death of 17-year-old Shafilea Ahmed.
Her body was discovered after heavy floods washed away the dense undergrowth it was
Great topic. Marriage is a choice and we learn to live with our choices throughout life. A way to view divorce could be from the eye of staying married, learning how to live with who we've chosen. This is a view I recommend to people, as far as it will take them.
Except...I dunno. I can easily see exceptions, like some of those noted here.
I think that the idea of marriage as an "institution" and a union formed and set in place by God puts it in a very serious context. It's a wonderful celebration when young and old alike are married, and at the same time there's a tremendous significance to the relationship between a man and a woman marrying and their committment to one another. When done "before God", God is witness to the union. It can't be a good thing to toss that witness aside when vows have been made before Him.
Marriage forms a view into how God sees his relationship with His people and the continuance of life. So it stands to reason that God wouldn't cotten to the idea of men (or women for that matter) marrying young, living amiss, divorcing, marrying again and even again, putting out the old mate and bringing in the new younger one, the "starter" wives and the "trophy" wives later. All of that would be counter to the solidity and union of a constant growing relationship with one another. In Malachai 2 it says God hates "putting away", and those priests were living as many people do today, with the way they were living.
Jesus's own disciples struggled with His description of marriage and what was kosher and what wasn't with divorce. "Better to not even marry!" Which is a good point - it shouldn't be something entered into casually because the intent should be that it's going to last.
But it is VERY significant that it's not in the "Top 10" commandments, but adultery is, yes. Yes! Not committing adultery means staying faithful. And I can clearly see the coorelation made in the O.T. as to faithfulness between people and God. If two join and stay together the bascs of a successful marriage are in place. Adultery is the opposite of that and would threaten the union, obviously.
But we live in forgiveness and indeed "grace". What's been joined and separated can come back together. But if one goes off for good and doesn't honor the committment in their actions and refuses, divorce, a final separation is inevitable. How to proceed from there - I could only guess carefully, if only from the wisdom gained and do our best to have a marriage that falls into the context of God's intents - love, faith, respect, consideration and faithfulness.
I think Jesus's statements about it are so clear and strong that it places the correct emphasis on the "marriage vow" that we are to have. At the core is how we think and then how we act. Our "hearts" and then what comes out of them in actions.
We can't break one rule and expect to fix it because we keep another. I don't think it was ever in the context of marriage that a man or woman could horribly mistreat the other or do wrong to each other or their children and that the marriage would stay intact. The marriage itself as a union is broken by the behavior of the people - "adultery" wouldn't be the only just cause. I think "God's view" of a continuing marriage assumes that the basic ground rules of an honest, just life are in place.
At the same time that doesn't mean IMO that the original vow is without strength or meaning - even if entered into frivolously, that's playing with fire right from the start.
I'd say it's the most serious "contract" two people can enter into, one with a value in and of itself. It could end up like having gold bars and using them for door stops - but the bars are still gold regardless what they're used for.
I guess marriage is a great thing if it works. But divorce is so gut-wrenching awful, and can be forced on you whether you want it or not, that I doubt I'd ever try tying the knot again. There's just too much at risk. You don't realize it the first time around, but that divorce is a real eye-opener. And how many times can you vow "Till death do us part" with a straight face?
One thing that has not been addressed on this thread (in detail anyway)...abuse. Someone made the comment above that it is hard to compare our culture with OT biblical cultures. Abuse has become so rampant in the U.S. that I gotta give the spouse who is the subject of abuse a way out. Physical abuse is punishable by law - otherwise known as domestic violence. Other forms of abuse can be almost as hurtful. The spouse who is constantly - daily - hourly treated to abusive and hurtful insults and words. I don't mean the occasional "fight." I mean a daily event. I gotta give the victims of that a way out as well.
And lets go to more sensitive topics shall we? Someone asked the question about someone who was in a coma for a length of time. What about other diseases? Drug/alcohol abuse? Bipolar? DID (used to be known as schizophrenia)? Those disorders can be as deadly to the partner as they are to the person who is diseased.
I guess marriage is a great thing if it works. But divorce is so gut-wrenching awful, and can be forced on you whether you want it or not, that I doubt I'd ever try tying the knot again. There's just too much at risk. You don't realize it the first time around, but that divorce is a real eye-opener. And how many times can you vow "Till death do us part" with a straight face?
It comes down to love your neighbor as yourself (and implied YOURSELF as your neighbor)
I cannot imagine telling someone to go ahead and go home into the "h e l l hole" of a marriage and God will bless you because you did not break a "vow"
If there is abuse as you spoke of -- then get out. And if God is a meany who only blesses you if you keep a vow? Well, then get out and ask for forgiveness.
Thanks. I think we're seeing - the two are related. Adultery is a justifiable cause for divorce. What's being upheld is the joining in marriage, the "two being made one". We could ponder the meaning of that - "as" one or "one". It appears more the latter in it's essence but I can see there are levels where the comparison of two joining as one would be appropriate too.
To place the adultery in a list like this could be viewed very simply in the context of all of the laws and rules of the O.T.
Divorce isn't wrong (breaking the rule of law), when there's cause. It's not the ideal outcome in a marriage, but it reflects conditions. It doesn't seem as though divorce is required in the laws in the event of adultery - but I doubt that if that condition persisted there'd be much reason for the marriage to continue as if nothing was wrong anymore than if other conditions reflected other things being wrong.
Adultery's probably dealt with specifically in relation to divorce because it deals specifically with the committment between the people. As if to say "stand up straight". And then "Don't slouch". It could be assumed that also includes a host of other related positions that aren't "standing up straight".
Other expections would be assumed the same way - because there's no "divorce" related instructions to not harm a spouse in other ways isn't an implicit allowance that it would be okay. It's common sense, to me. Rumrunner's post covers that.
But - I have heard and read that things like abusive conditions aren't as deeply serious "spiritually" as adultery. It's kind of wiggled around, apparently because all of the possible variations of what can go wrong in a relationship between two people aren't spelled out in a commandment. Which is just stupid IMO.
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George Aar
Only my home studies. But they were a bitch...
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Bow-
I love what you found!!! All these guys/gals who run around and say they cannot divorce because... But they can screw around...
George I am laughing at your post.
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RainbowsGirl
Dear ((((Bowtwi)))))
This is a very interesting account of divorce from GOD's viewpoint as he refers to himself as married to Israel, and Judah Her sister. This account expresses GOD's view concerning their
adulteries, whoredoms and divorcement from GOD. They seem very connected and inter-relating here.
Since GOD doesn't change; but is gracious and merciful and judges righteously, I think, (that is in my opinion) that the matters of judgment will go in accordance with the future
judgment of those under each different administration. It is so interesting to see how throughout all the ages GOD also is seeking reconciliation and recovery of All His Children!
That is Love like none of us can truly understand!
Bless GOD forever Our Dad!
King James Version (KJV) Jeremiah - Chapter 3
Jer 3:1 ¶ They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
Jer 3:4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou [art] the guide of my youth?
Jer 3:5 Will he reserve [his anger] for ever? will he keep [it] to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.
Jer 3:6 ¶ The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen [that] which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these [things], Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw [it].
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Jer 3:9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:11 ¶ And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
Jer 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; [and] I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I [am] merciful, saith the LORD, [and] I will not keep [anger] for ever.
Jer 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
Jer 3:19 ¶ But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
Jer 3:20 Surely [as] a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
Jer 3:21 ¶ A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping [and] supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, [and] they have forgotten the LORD their God.
Jer 3:22 Return, ye backsliding children, [and] I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou [art] the LORD our God.
How rare is this: I amazingly, enough edited this NOT for grammar, etc.; but to add these verses that reference divorce, (cause and effect):
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write
her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:3 And [if] the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth [it] in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took
her [to be] his wife;
Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where [is] the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors [is it] to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your
iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.
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geisha779
I've always believed that if we're living according to the great commandments Jesus taught here, that we won't violate the Ten Commandments God gave the people back in Moses' day. Today I got to wondering if it's worse in God's eyes to commit adultery than it is to divorce.
If God allows divorce--gave it to Israel, but hates it--is it a sin when there is a way made for it?
Adultery is a sin-but God hates divorce -- Adultery seems worse.
What about in cases of abuse? I can't stand it when I read accounts of women submitting unto death to some abusive *%#@#($*. I wonder if THAT is "Biblical"
I did find an article on it once--I am quoting the conclusion(just read the fair use policy-duh) as I can't figure out how to link it. When someone is in an abusive situation--how can they even think clearly enough to work through this. Truth and judgement can become clouded. Get to saftey first!!
Biblical conditions for divorce would include adultery, abandonment, and abuse.
God does not want any couple to divorce. He stands ready to give hope, help, and healing.
God loves those who have experienced the pain of divorce. He still has a wonderful plan and purpose for their lives and ministries. Would any good father still love a child who experiences the pain of divorce? Your perfect Father in heaven does.
The Apostle Paul is proof. He was a Pharisee (Philippians 3:5), and was thus required to be married. By the time he wrote 1 Corinthians he was no longer married (1 Cor. 7:8), so that he was either a widower or a divorcee. He states in Philippians 3:8 that he "lost all things" when he gave his life to Christ; most scholars believe that he lost his wife when he became a Christian. In Paul's day, a Jew who converted to Christianity was considered dead by his family and wife. She was a widow, free to marry another Jew. We would say she divorced him. And he wrote half of the New Testament.
What will God do with your life?
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waysider
I'm not sure it's possible to compare divorce in Biblical times to divorce today.
Our culture is so radically different from theirs, the parallels are not easy to discern.
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Shellon
My husband and I, married in twi, subscribed to the "divorce is not an option" and beyond that, each believed it in our own hearts, shared vows together to express it and we were serious!
Probably too much so for our own good some days. But I don't recall believing it because the Bible said so or even because we shared the same passion about sticking together.
It seemed, to me, to be about integrity, about keeping my word and not entering into the marriage without information and enough discussion and analyzing 'til I'm sure he re-thought marrying me just for that.
(not really)
But, just because that was the choice we made for our own lives, didn't make it right or wrong for another couple or individual contemplating the idea of marriage.
I understand the Ten Commandments and certainly considered the adultry part of it for my marriage as whether it was one I could ever forgive if it were slapping me in my own face.
I like to think we would have been able to recover and regain footing enough to heal from it; thankfully it was never an option we had to take on.
But life happens, too, and I think we humans have to wonder about forgiveness and things like "do I love him/her enough to do the really hard work to fix this" or "am I hurt and angry enough to do the really hard work to get this apart?"
There are so often children involved in the marriage union. There are other family members. There are so many things to consider that go beyond the anger and hurt and fear and possibilities on either side of the issue.
I think God knows our human-ness, knows our stupid and it doesn't shock him much when either of those shine the brightest.
Personally, my marriage ended with my husbands death and I then moved on to wonder about the Widow gig and wanted nothing to do with that, too. Having no choice, I spent alot of time trying to figure out the 'now what' part of my life without a partner to finish the walk with me.
I felt betrayed by my husband in that too. Surely I could find a way to blame him for intentionally ending our marriage, if I but looked deep enough in the book that said Holy Bible on the cover.
It wasn't there.
There is always something, differant kinds of hurt, even betrayal, when two people decide to mix their lives together.
My daughter is 26, having been in a relationship with her fiance for 8 years now and it's way too easy for them to hurt the other with words, with actions that they don't mean. Or maybe they do. It's a differant generation with differant values and morals.
I think adultry is worse in the shock value department, maybe. Again I speak as one who hasn't suffered either that or divorce, but when a divorce is looming, don't each person sort of see it coming then either make the decision to do something or agree it's the better route?
In adultry, hindsight is always really sharp, but at the time, the thought of realizing our life partner has shared the most intimate and private of things with another person is torture.
Differant degrees of anger and pain, differant places of betrayal and often the cause of the divorce, of course.
We don't always do alot of things the Bible, or God himself tells us to do because we're humans and we make decisions otherwise. God not forgiving one more than another, I have trouble believing that most days.
My gig is whether or not we can forgive and still do our best to go into the next day, regardless of the wrong, to us or against us.
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chockfull
Jesus said that the divorce laws in OT were written because of the hardness of their hearts. He said what God joined together let no man tear apart.
But you can't determine another's freedom of will, you can't control it, and at times it's very small how you can even influence it. We are all broken. We all fall short.
That's where His love makes us whole in spite of that.
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brideofjc
The Lord Jesus was very clear on the subject and HE narrowed it down to divorce being allowed only in the cases of adultery because some of the more liberal teachers of the law, such as R. Shammai, were teaching that if your wife burned your toast, it was ok to divorce her. What was also going on according to the literature of the day, was that men were simply tiring of their wives and kicking their wives out of HIS house, minus HER children that she had borne him. With out a bill of divorce according to the law, she could never remarry until her husband died. He went on to live with concubines (a sort of secondary wife) which was perfectly legal according to the law. However, since women had no standing in that type of society, she ended up either begging on the streets for her food or becoming a harlot in order to stay alive. This is why Moses began to allow divorce, because of the hardness of the men's hearts against their wives, but as the Lord Jesus stated, this was not so in the beginning with God.
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brideofjc
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Dot Matrix
Seems to me that God allows for divorce but not adultery.
There is no scripture that says under THESE conditions - go ahead and sleep together. But he does say there are conditions where you can divorce ... and a spouse commiting adultery is one. Seems like IT is worse.
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cman
rev 2
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
And who is it "that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks"? from verse 1
http://users.cybertime.net/~ajgood/nics.htm
the Nicolaitanes
divorcing love is what i think, since it speaks of hardness of heart
anyway, there's a Nicolaitanes reference
which seems significant
though erroneously tied with the so called gnostics in some works
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cman
btw that rev 2 isn't speaking of a marriage of only physical
but Christ
as it is in the rest of the bible
it's the spiritual being communicated by way of
a marriage as in the physical
yet the love is still the main factor
without love, there is no joining
as well as the marriage which does certainly include a physical one
should it be present
Cuz why would there be an allegory without real substance spiritually
The point is love, the rest will work out....
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bowtwi
What do you think in the case of a spouse that's in a coma or missing for years? I've heard that after 7 years one can have them declared legally dead and then you'd be free to move on, but 7 years is a long time to wait. Maybe it's that way because marriage should never be entered into lightly.
The bottom line for me on the divorce and adultery issue to me is that God called us to peace and He knows our hearts. I think it's best to keep our vows whenever possible, but if a marriage is beyond repair, divorce is way better than adultery or living out the rest of our lives in misery.
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Shellon
Box, love how you always keep it that simple. Misery is each of those things, isn't it? Beyond repair, divorce, adultery.
We, as strong women especially, can use that strength for good. I understand that your original point or question wasn't directed just at women, but I happen to be one, so can only speak from that lens or my own experience.
If I'm in a marriage and it's understood that the really hard work might involve any of those three, I'm going to be 1. hurting and 2. having to make some really tough choices.
As you said, God looks on our hearts and I think He expects us to enter into such a wonderful amazing laborious union with our eyes open and our hearts completely ready and willing to take on whatever it brings.
The good, the bad and the "oh shi+ what have I done?". Everything.
If something as drastic as adultery enters into the threads of that, of course choices have to be made and we live with the results, both parties involved. Or all three or more.
Forgiveness is part of the equation, betrayal, pain that digs deeper than some days are manageable, but we've got choices, thankfully. I believe God gets that.
:)
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HAPe4me
true words
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Dot Matrix
What if you were slapped around by your family and forced to marry someone? You NEVER loved them. You pray that the lord take you home and you keep “your arranged marriage” as some kind of dirty secret?. Are you married?
To me, you are no more married than if you were held at gun point and forced to perform a homosexual act – then you are expected to be homo sexual.
Yet, Christians found in arranged marriages from other countries have gone to counseling to the church and been told that God will not “approve of their divorce” and if one divorces the other God will not “allow” then to get married again. You might think “oh so what?”, but suppose it is a Chinese or Indian or African Christian Minister who is so unhappy he prays to “go home” and nobody knows.
Arranged Marriages and Divorce. When do we stop telling people what to do? Will God allow these people to get divorced and fall in love?
Look how desperate these people are --
Dad kills daughter who wanted out of arranged marriage
http://www.topix.com/forum/prisons/united-...88K15QAGGCSDV2N
Dad charged with bride's 'honor killing'
A Pakistani man accused of killing his daughter because she wanted out of an arranged marriage told a judge Tuesday that he had done nothing wrong.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/08/honor.killing/index.html
"Apparently she and the father had argued over the marriage and the fact that it was arranged, and at some point during the altercation he did end up killing his daughter," said Clayton County Police spokesman Tim Owens.
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queen...1696058391.html
Arranged marriage ends in murder
He claims he was provoked into the attack by his wife's admissions she was having an affair and had never found him attractive during their arranged marriage.
'Vile murder' of girl set for arranged marriage.(News)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime...red-769724.html
A MUSLIM teenager who feared she was being forced into an arranged marriage by her parents suffered a "vile murder", a coroner said yesterday.
Coroner for East and South Cumbria Ian Smith said the concept of an arranged marriage was "central" to the circumstances leading up to the death of 17-year-old Shafilea Ahmed.
Her body was discovered after heavy floods washed away the dense undergrowth it was
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-56...oms-murder.html
Arranged marriage bride and lover arrested over teenage groom's murder
Arranged marriage
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Breakup-Deal-Br.../Confused-13.ht
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Dot Matrix
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socks
Great topic. Marriage is a choice and we learn to live with our choices throughout life. A way to view divorce could be from the eye of staying married, learning how to live with who we've chosen. This is a view I recommend to people, as far as it will take them.
Except...I dunno. I can easily see exceptions, like some of those noted here.
I think that the idea of marriage as an "institution" and a union formed and set in place by God puts it in a very serious context. It's a wonderful celebration when young and old alike are married, and at the same time there's a tremendous significance to the relationship between a man and a woman marrying and their committment to one another. When done "before God", God is witness to the union. It can't be a good thing to toss that witness aside when vows have been made before Him.
Marriage forms a view into how God sees his relationship with His people and the continuance of life. So it stands to reason that God wouldn't cotten to the idea of men (or women for that matter) marrying young, living amiss, divorcing, marrying again and even again, putting out the old mate and bringing in the new younger one, the "starter" wives and the "trophy" wives later. All of that would be counter to the solidity and union of a constant growing relationship with one another. In Malachai 2 it says God hates "putting away", and those priests were living as many people do today, with the way they were living.
Jesus's own disciples struggled with His description of marriage and what was kosher and what wasn't with divorce. "Better to not even marry!" Which is a good point - it shouldn't be something entered into casually because the intent should be that it's going to last.
But it is VERY significant that it's not in the "Top 10" commandments, but adultery is, yes. Yes! Not committing adultery means staying faithful. And I can clearly see the coorelation made in the O.T. as to faithfulness between people and God. If two join and stay together the bascs of a successful marriage are in place. Adultery is the opposite of that and would threaten the union, obviously.
But we live in forgiveness and indeed "grace". What's been joined and separated can come back together. But if one goes off for good and doesn't honor the committment in their actions and refuses, divorce, a final separation is inevitable. How to proceed from there - I could only guess carefully, if only from the wisdom gained and do our best to have a marriage that falls into the context of God's intents - love, faith, respect, consideration and faithfulness.
I think Jesus's statements about it are so clear and strong that it places the correct emphasis on the "marriage vow" that we are to have. At the core is how we think and then how we act. Our "hearts" and then what comes out of them in actions.
We can't break one rule and expect to fix it because we keep another. I don't think it was ever in the context of marriage that a man or woman could horribly mistreat the other or do wrong to each other or their children and that the marriage would stay intact. The marriage itself as a union is broken by the behavior of the people - "adultery" wouldn't be the only just cause. I think "God's view" of a continuing marriage assumes that the basic ground rules of an honest, just life are in place.
At the same time that doesn't mean IMO that the original vow is without strength or meaning - even if entered into frivolously, that's playing with fire right from the start.
I'd say it's the most serious "contract" two people can enter into, one with a value in and of itself. It could end up like having gold bars and using them for door stops - but the bars are still gold regardless what they're used for.
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George Aar
I guess marriage is a great thing if it works. But divorce is so gut-wrenching awful, and can be forced on you whether you want it or not, that I doubt I'd ever try tying the knot again. There's just too much at risk. You don't realize it the first time around, but that divorce is a real eye-opener. And how many times can you vow "Till death do us part" with a straight face?
Some lessons you just don't choose to repeat...
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RumRunner
I gotta go with George on this one.
One thing that has not been addressed on this thread (in detail anyway)...abuse. Someone made the comment above that it is hard to compare our culture with OT biblical cultures. Abuse has become so rampant in the U.S. that I gotta give the spouse who is the subject of abuse a way out. Physical abuse is punishable by law - otherwise known as domestic violence. Other forms of abuse can be almost as hurtful. The spouse who is constantly - daily - hourly treated to abusive and hurtful insults and words. I don't mean the occasional "fight." I mean a daily event. I gotta give the victims of that a way out as well.
And lets go to more sensitive topics shall we? Someone asked the question about someone who was in a coma for a length of time. What about other diseases? Drug/alcohol abuse? Bipolar? DID (used to be known as schizophrenia)? Those disorders can be as deadly to the partner as they are to the person who is diseased.
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Dot Matrix
You are right - he who runs with rum:
It comes down to love your neighbor as yourself (and implied YOURSELF as your neighbor)
I cannot imagine telling someone to go ahead and go home into the "h e l l hole" of a marriage and God will bless you because you did not break a "vow"
If there is abuse as you spoke of -- then get out. And if God is a meany who only blesses you if you keep a vow? Well, then get out and ask for forgiveness.
IMHO
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Dot Matrix
Socks, you also made good points and I do think it is significant that divorce is NOT in the 10 commandments but adultery is..
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Dot Matrix
More on arranged marriage
http://www.megaessays.com/viewpaper/10165.html
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socks
Thanks. I think we're seeing - the two are related. Adultery is a justifiable cause for divorce. What's being upheld is the joining in marriage, the "two being made one". We could ponder the meaning of that - "as" one or "one". It appears more the latter in it's essence but I can see there are levels where the comparison of two joining as one would be appropriate too.
To place the adultery in a list like this could be viewed very simply in the context of all of the laws and rules of the O.T.
Divorce isn't wrong (breaking the rule of law), when there's cause. It's not the ideal outcome in a marriage, but it reflects conditions. It doesn't seem as though divorce is required in the laws in the event of adultery - but I doubt that if that condition persisted there'd be much reason for the marriage to continue as if nothing was wrong anymore than if other conditions reflected other things being wrong.
Adultery's probably dealt with specifically in relation to divorce because it deals specifically with the committment between the people. As if to say "stand up straight". And then "Don't slouch". It could be assumed that also includes a host of other related positions that aren't "standing up straight".
Other expections would be assumed the same way - because there's no "divorce" related instructions to not harm a spouse in other ways isn't an implicit allowance that it would be okay. It's common sense, to me. Rumrunner's post covers that.
But - I have heard and read that things like abusive conditions aren't as deeply serious "spiritually" as adultery. It's kind of wiggled around, apparently because all of the possible variations of what can go wrong in a relationship between two people aren't spelled out in a commandment. Which is just stupid IMO.
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