I think that the scriptures that we learned...I don`t think it was ever about teaching us...I think those scriptures were simply the bait that lured us into the snare.
Proverbs says that in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey. The bait has to be mighty convincing, it has to grab our attention and focus so that we don`t see the trap hidden beneith until we have been drawn in, and it is sprung.
We then stupidly wander around telling ourselves....but the bait was so good...man it sure tasted good while I was eating it. You even have folks try to still claim that the bait was so good and we should be appreciative....lol
No thanks, it was only bait placed in a trap by predators, to lure the unwary.
As far as us being tools? I think that scriptures and God were tools as well...so I suppose that we are in very good company.
I don't think she was speaking of an all inclusive "we" without exception or perhaps even without distinction (whatever the heck that means).
I never brought anyone to TWI; never carried a green card; never promoted the class. In fact, I was downright embarrassed about being a part of TWI and only spoke of it in terms of doing home-based fellowships, yet I was not offended by her use of "we".
I feel for those who had their identities so wrapped up in TWI that they were unable to see how they were being used. That didn't happened to me, but I do understand because I watched as good people put an organization before God and family, fully believing with all their hearts that they were doing the right thing, and castigating people like me who didn't share their opinion. I know how I felt when I stood my ground on doing what I believed was best for me and my family and the subsequent bad treatment because I was considered spiritually inferior. It hurt and made me ashamed to be part of an organization that would do that.
We are so very thankful for the opportunity that we had to learn the word from VP Wierwille
We are all so much better off for our experiences in the Way.
I honestly do still feel that way. When we (you and me :) ) freely availed ourselves to participate in "those good old days" we engaged in a process that helped us learn many wonderful things about life and people and hopefully, brought some folks enduring truths about God and Jesus and the Word of God. Our free will participation could be described as the opposite of being a tool... we decided to freely choose to walk in love and in fellowship with God and Christ and when we worked it was as the scriptures say heartily as to the Lord, and not unto men.
Yeah Waysider, what`s a few deaths, rapes, aborted children, destroyed families more or less when we had the opportunity to learn from a plagerizing, drunken, raping, lying, low life man of the flesh like wierwille to teach us?
I honestly do still feel that way. When we (you and me :) ) freely availed ourselves to participate in "those good old days" we engaged in a process that helped us learn many wonderful things about life and people and hopefully, brought some folks enduring truths about God and Jesus and the Word of God. Our free will participation could be described as the opposite of being a tool... we decided to freely choose to walk in love and in fellowship with God and Christ and when we worked it was as the scriptures say heartily as to the Lord, and not unto men.
It's my impression that this thread was started as an opportunity for people to discuss how it feels to realize they were exploited.
If you don't feel you were exploited, then so be it. Go ahead and say so. It's not my intention to change your perception.
Then----- politely step aside and let others have a voice without having to be challenged and doubted at every turn.
I think it's an interesting concept but right now "closed threads" are not part of the format. By closed thread, I mean participants of like mind and thoughts and feelings.
I thought about starting my own thread about how I and those who think like me were not tools of twi, but what's the point? You or anyone else with a varying opinion may come in and give your varying opinion and we'll have what we have here.
I think its possible that closed threads may happen in the future; it may be worth a try if there's enough support for it, perhaps you may want to make a suggestion to Paw. But right now I think we'll just have to live with each other as best we can.
I think it's an interesting concept but right now "closed threads" are not part of the format. By closed thread, I mean participants of like mind and thoughts and feelings.
I thought about starting my own thread about how I and those who think like me were not tools of twi, but what's the point? You or anyone else with a varying opinion could come in and give your opinion and we'll have what we have here.
Closed threads may happen in the future, I think its interesting and perhaps worth a try. But right now I think we'll just have to live with each other as best we can.
No one said this is a "closed thread".
I simply stated that, as I see it, the purpose of this thread is to allow people to express how they feel about having been exploited.
There is nothing in what I said that implies you can't voice an opposing opinion.
What I object to is the derailment of the topic at hand.
It's simply inappropriate to "discuss the discussion" or "promote an agenda" that conflicts with the purpose of this thread.
You are perfectly welcome (IMO) to state an opposing view as long as you don't do so in a manner that is disruptive of the stated intent of the thread.
So, on that note, I suggest you start a thread that presents an opposing view and moderate it yourself.
Or, like the old saying goes: "Poop or get off the potty chair."
The thing is, I wish that I could agree with you. Not to long ago I would have gladly stomped on (so to speak) any PFAL grad who wasn't thankful to God for TWI leadership. As I was led, I would have dismissed any claims of abuse as propoganda. I would have thought that the only noble thing to do was to hold on to the good and keep the loyalty to Geer that my splinter group taught. I would be aware that problems existed, but only mourned that things went bad. I would not have blamed Wierwille or Geer, because the TWI sentiment is that they did their best to fix things, but because of wicked men that crept in (See Jude) things went sour, and no man could have fixed it.
Then I spent several years as the target of this splinter group's TWI-like machinations and lost my wife and my child. It's not that I didn't have problems, but IMO the things that I dealt with personally could have been handled by virtually any competant and loving Christian organization.
My splinter group leader separated the group from their whole previous life and controlled every aspect of their (our) lives. While in control, they isolated me within the group and wrecked my whole life. My fighting back only served to make his control stronger because I was vastly outnumbered and the whole group was victimized by what I now recognize as TWI style crowd control methods that were first employed by Wierwille and his disciples Martindale and Geer.
WD and Oldies, you may not see it this way, but I believe that you are holding TWI promoted attitudes that make you tools of TWI still.
How can anyone say WE ARE ALL BETTER OFF in the face of death and abuse? I don't get you. In practice IMO the good stuff in TWI only covered up the sicko-psycho-abusive TWI style leadership.
To me it's like keeping bailing water in a rapidly sinking ship. It can even be viewed as valiant, but it's proving futile.
This is the most valid reference that I know, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."
IMO this is not easy to deal with, but if it's true (I think that it is!) then what other choice do we have but to deal with it?
(edited for grammar)
Dear wordwolf, :)
Does post number 40 bring it together for you? :)
Well Jeff,
I think that the scriptures that we learned...I don`t think it was ever about teaching us...I think those scriptures were simply the bait that lured us into the snare.
Proverbs says that in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey. The bait has to be mighty convincing, it has to grab our attention and focus so that we don`t see the trap hidden beneith until we have been drawn in, and it is sprung.
We then stupidly wander around telling ourselves....but the bait was so good...man it sure tasted good while I was eating it. You even have folks try to still claim that the bait was so good and we should be appreciative....lol
No thanks, it was only bait placed in a trap by predators, to lure the unwary.
As far as us being tools? I think that scriptures and God were tools as well...so I suppose that we are in very good company.
Dear Rascal,
I don't think that "HE" will be happy with being a tool of the predators. Gee, if it wasn't prophecied of OVER AND OVER again in the scripture I would be really surprised, now it just hurts, but I'm not surprised. :(
I honestly do still feel that way. When we (you and me :) ) freely availed ourselves to participate in "those good old days" we engaged in a process that helped us learn many wonderful things about life and people and hopefully, brought some folks enduring truths about God and Jesus and the Word of God. Our free will participation could be described as the opposite of being a tool... we decided to freely choose to walk in love and in fellowship with God and Christ and when we worked it was as the scriptures say heartily as to the Lord, and not unto men.
Dear Oldies,
I would wish that the Lord is your reward then, but for me the scriptures as they apply to TWI don't paint such a rosy picture. IMO GARBAGE FIRE IS THE END OF THESE THINGS!!
But still, I'm not your judge.
JEFF
P.S. Oldies, I'm still not happy about how you dumped on Rascal's communication to me either!
Jeff, my reading and interpretation of the verse about the leaven basically means to turn oneself away (present tense) from a wicked person or people. (I Cor. 5). Has little or nothing to do with happenings of 20-30 years ago, rehashing and condemning sins which nobody can change today.
If you believe your experience was with wicked people, you are entitled to that belief and opinion and free to share. My experiences seem to differ and I am just as entitled to my beliefs and opinions.
With regards to being a tool of twi and using words like "we" as if everyone was a tool, it does seem like it was a disparaging comment about a whole lot of people many of them may not see it that way. That is why I thought it was offensive, not just for me but others as well. Remember this thread is not just a two-way conversation between you and Rascal; many folks are reading it. Didn't seem like Rascal was using "we" meaning just you and her alone; I thought her meaning was clear and I think the use of that inclusion opened the door to other varying opinions in this thread. But being a tool does not apply to me, WhiteDove (and I believe many many others) because of the recognition that our actions in twi were free will decisions that "we" take full responsibility for. Can't blame anyone else. WhiteDove may want to add more reasons why. What may have been in someone else's mind, their possible abuse of someones time and money, their mindset and their sins, is for God to judge. Doesn't make me a tool. God is the judge and searcher of hearts and motives and sins, that's His job.
Jeff, my reading and interpretation of the verse about the leaven basically means to turn oneself away (present tense) from a wicked person or people. (I Cor. 5). Has little or nothing to do with happenings of 20-30 years ago, rehashing and condemning sins which nobody can change today.
If you believe your experience was with wicked people, you are entitled to that belief and opinion. My experiences differ and I am just as entitled to my beliefs and opinions.
With regards to being a tool of twi and using words like "we" as if everyone was a tool, it does seem like it was a disparaging comment about a whole lot of people many of them may not see it that way. Remember this thread is not just a two-way conversation between you and Rascal; many folks are reading it. Didn't seem like Rascal was using "we" meaning just you and her alone. It does not apply to me, WhiteDove (and I believe many many others) because of the recognition that our actions in twi were free will decisions that "we" take full responsibility for. Can't blame anyone else. What may have been in someone else's mind, their possible abuse of my time and money, is for God to judge. God is the judge and searcher of hearts, that's His job.
Oldiesman,
Paul was attempting to teach the Corinthians to judge these things correctly. Not to ignore the wickedness and claim the Grace of God covered. Their glorying was not good, as Paul said. IMO neither is TWI tools who hold to the good and ignore the bad, while they do everything in their power to shut TWI victims up.
This is how I feel about your unwelcome input in Rascal's post. If you had the descency to say something like, "Gee Jeff, I'm sorry that I stepped on your toes" before you tried to justify your actions I would feel differently than I do now. I've heard you and/or WD say things like "Butt out" or similar sentiments when you felt that you toes were stepped on, so you ought to know what it feels like.
I feel that in this instance we need to be able to judge these past events and the repercussions that still exist today correctly. Paul wanted the corinthians to learn to judge correctly. IMO simply saying, "God will judge" without dealing with things as they really are is a TWI cop out that I first heard (albeit 2nd hand) of, that it came out of Wierwille's very own mouth when confronted with Way Corps sexual misconduct. That is why I believe that your attitude is still effectively carrying on in TWI fashion. Don't be a tool Oldies.
Look at the context of I Cor. 5, it is present tense. Present Tense of his time. Paul was correcting the actions of current happenings of his time, not talking about former events of 30 years ago.
Paul was trying to prevent things from going like they did in The Way International. It's too bad that Wierwille wasn't up to teaching the scriptures as they were known in the first century. Many people wouldn't be dead or broken now.
(edited for clarity)
I have to leave now for a bit. If Oldies or anyone responds to this post, I'll read it later. :)
Gee it sounded like the "Royal" we to me--When we use the word "WE" We don't mean W-E-E, we are using it like the queen of England refering to the immensity of the kingdom and everything it represents. We the queen of England. Reminds me of the time I was in England and they told me to line up for the queue--I didn't know if I was supposed to go to the pool room --or what?
You know why they didn't play cards on Noah's Ark--cause Noah sat on the deck!
What do you think the color of those living room curtains were? They were FIRE ENGINE RED!!
What a crock!!
Count me in with the "WE" who is still a bit ticked off.
Jeff, my reading and interpretation of the verse about the leaven basically means to turn oneself away (present tense) from a wicked person or people. (I Cor. 5). Has little or nothing to do with happenings of 20-30 years ago, rehashing and condemning sins which nobody can change today.
(snip)
Gee, only ONE VERSE about leaven?
Matthew 16:6-12 (NASB)
6And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
7They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, "He said that because we did not bring any bread."
8But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread?
9"Do you not yet understand or remember (J)the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up?
10"Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up?
11"How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
12Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of
==========================
I Corinthians 5:1-13 (NASB)
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
=======================
Galatians 5:9-16 (NASB)
9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
=============
Not for nothing were we warned "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."
(I Corinthians 5 AND Galatians 5.)
God wanted to let us know that perfectly godly stuff-with a small amount of adulteration- can be degraded
so it's no longer what He wanted.
(If one is to believe I Corinthians 5 and Galatians 5, anyway- I've seen someone argue against it while claiming
they believe the whole Bible.)
Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time.
==================
Leaven
(1.) Hebrews seor (Exodus 12:15, 19; 13:7; Leviticus 2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid.
(2.) Hebrews hamets, properly "ferment." In Numbers 6:3, "vinegar of wine" is more correctly "fermented wine." In Exodus 13:7, the proper rendering would be, "Unfermented things [Hebrews matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened mass [seor] in all thy borders." The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is "a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion."
The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire (Leviticus 2:11; 7:12; 8:2; Numbers 6:15). Its secretly penetrating and diffusive power is referred to in 1 Corinthians 5:6. In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world (Matthew 13:33). It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Matthew 16:6, 11; Mark 8:15; 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8).
Reference - Easton's Bible Dictionary
================
What does that have to do with this discussion?
So long as one holds on to the leaven of twi, whether it be 20, 30, 100 years ago, it is still a problem.
Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time.
This cyanide analogy never worked for me. How do we know that there isn't a little poison in every religious group and denomination? There may be! Heck some people even think the entire bible is rubbish and poison.
What is the answer? I believe the answer is to beware of everything one hears and reads. Test the knowledge, test the spirits. God gave mankind a brain with the ability to separate truth from error and that includes the ability to separate any harmful doctrine of twi away from the good. Take out the harmful leaven and get the new lump. The good does not have to be trashed along with the evil, in fact, I believe that interpretation is erroneous. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.
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http://www.slide.com/r/UfHSnNSi7D9ZFf07kpS...p;view=original
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rascal
Well Jeff,
I think that the scriptures that we learned...I don`t think it was ever about teaching us...I think those scriptures were simply the bait that lured us into the snare.
Proverbs says that in vain is the snare set in sight of the prey. The bait has to be mighty convincing, it has to grab our attention and focus so that we don`t see the trap hidden beneith until we have been drawn in, and it is sprung.
We then stupidly wander around telling ourselves....but the bait was so good...man it sure tasted good while I was eating it. You even have folks try to still claim that the bait was so good and we should be appreciative....lol
No thanks, it was only bait placed in a trap by predators, to lure the unwary.
As far as us being tools? I think that scriptures and God were tools as well...so I suppose that we are in very good company.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
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Tzaia
I don't think she was speaking of an all inclusive "we" without exception or perhaps even without distinction (whatever the heck that means).
I never brought anyone to TWI; never carried a green card; never promoted the class. In fact, I was downright embarrassed about being a part of TWI and only spoke of it in terms of doing home-based fellowships, yet I was not offended by her use of "we".
I feel for those who had their identities so wrapped up in TWI that they were unable to see how they were being used. That didn't happened to me, but I do understand because I watched as good people put an organization before God and family, fully believing with all their hearts that they were doing the right thing, and castigating people like me who didn't share their opinion. I know how I felt when I stood my ground on doing what I believed was best for me and my family and the subsequent bad treatment because I was considered spiritually inferior. It hurt and made me ashamed to be part of an organization that would do that.
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oldiesman
I honestly do still feel that way. When we (you and me :) ) freely availed ourselves to participate in "those good old days" we engaged in a process that helped us learn many wonderful things about life and people and hopefully, brought some folks enduring truths about God and Jesus and the Word of God. Our free will participation could be described as the opposite of being a tool... we decided to freely choose to walk in love and in fellowship with God and Christ and when we worked it was as the scriptures say heartily as to the Lord, and not unto men.
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waysider
I'll be sure to remind my buddy the next time I visit his grave.
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rascal
Yeah Waysider, what`s a few deaths, rapes, aborted children, destroyed families more or less when we had the opportunity to learn from a plagerizing, drunken, raping, lying, low life man of the flesh like wierwille to teach us?
Wheres that troll sign?
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waysider
It's my impression that this thread was started as an opportunity for people to discuss how it feels to realize they were exploited.
If you don't feel you were exploited, then so be it. Go ahead and say so. It's not my intention to change your perception.
Then----- politely step aside and let others have a voice without having to be challenged and doubted at every turn.
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oldiesman
I think it's an interesting concept but right now "closed threads" are not part of the format. By closed thread, I mean participants of like mind and thoughts and feelings.
I thought about starting my own thread about how I and those who think like me were not tools of twi, but what's the point? You or anyone else with a varying opinion may come in and give your varying opinion and we'll have what we have here.
I think its possible that closed threads may happen in the future; it may be worth a try if there's enough support for it, perhaps you may want to make a suggestion to Paw. But right now I think we'll just have to live with each other as best we can.
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waysider
No one said this is a "closed thread".
I simply stated that, as I see it, the purpose of this thread is to allow people to express how they feel about having been exploited.
There is nothing in what I said that implies you can't voice an opposing opinion.
What I object to is the derailment of the topic at hand.
It's simply inappropriate to "discuss the discussion" or "promote an agenda" that conflicts with the purpose of this thread.
You are perfectly welcome (IMO) to state an opposing view as long as you don't do so in a manner that is disruptive of the stated intent of the thread.
So, on that note, I suggest you start a thread that presents an opposing view and moderate it yourself.
Or, like the old saying goes: "Poop or get off the potty chair."
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WordWolf
Being in utter denial of having been used is a legitimate position, but really isn't what the thread is about.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I find "we" (and especially "we all") offensive.
George
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cheranne
We were all used like cheap slaves,some of us you are STILL being a slave,just rowing the boat and the
"master" whipping your backslide!
http://www.slide.com/r/5FawSyK93z8f4pjWa2Y...p;view=original
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cheranne
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JeffSjo
Dear White Dove and Oldiesman,
The thing is, I wish that I could agree with you. Not to long ago I would have gladly stomped on (so to speak) any PFAL grad who wasn't thankful to God for TWI leadership. As I was led, I would have dismissed any claims of abuse as propoganda. I would have thought that the only noble thing to do was to hold on to the good and keep the loyalty to Geer that my splinter group taught. I would be aware that problems existed, but only mourned that things went bad. I would not have blamed Wierwille or Geer, because the TWI sentiment is that they did their best to fix things, but because of wicked men that crept in (See Jude) things went sour, and no man could have fixed it.
Then I spent several years as the target of this splinter group's TWI-like machinations and lost my wife and my child. It's not that I didn't have problems, but IMO the things that I dealt with personally could have been handled by virtually any competant and loving Christian organization.
My splinter group leader separated the group from their whole previous life and controlled every aspect of their (our) lives. While in control, they isolated me within the group and wrecked my whole life. My fighting back only served to make his control stronger because I was vastly outnumbered and the whole group was victimized by what I now recognize as TWI style crowd control methods that were first employed by Wierwille and his disciples Martindale and Geer.
WD and Oldies, you may not see it this way, but I believe that you are holding TWI promoted attitudes that make you tools of TWI still.
How can anyone say WE ARE ALL BETTER OFF in the face of death and abuse? I don't get you. In practice IMO the good stuff in TWI only covered up the sicko-psycho-abusive TWI style leadership.
To me it's like keeping bailing water in a rapidly sinking ship. It can even be viewed as valiant, but it's proving futile.
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JeffSjo
This is the most valid reference that I know, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."
IMO this is not easy to deal with, but if it's true (I think that it is!) then what other choice do we have but to deal with it?
(edited for grammar)
Dear wordwolf, :)
Does post number 40 bring it together for you? :)
Dear Rascal,
I don't think that "HE" will be happy with being a tool of the predators. Gee, if it wasn't prophecied of OVER AND OVER again in the scripture I would be really surprised, now it just hurts, but I'm not surprised. :(
Dear Oldies,
I would wish that the Lord is your reward then, but for me the scriptures as they apply to TWI don't paint such a rosy picture. IMO GARBAGE FIRE IS THE END OF THESE THINGS!!
But still, I'm not your judge.
JEFF
P.S. Oldies, I'm still not happy about how you dumped on Rascal's communication to me either!
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oldiesman
Jeff, my reading and interpretation of the verse about the leaven basically means to turn oneself away (present tense) from a wicked person or people. (I Cor. 5). Has little or nothing to do with happenings of 20-30 years ago, rehashing and condemning sins which nobody can change today.
If you believe your experience was with wicked people, you are entitled to that belief and opinion and free to share. My experiences seem to differ and I am just as entitled to my beliefs and opinions.
With regards to being a tool of twi and using words like "we" as if everyone was a tool, it does seem like it was a disparaging comment about a whole lot of people many of them may not see it that way. That is why I thought it was offensive, not just for me but others as well. Remember this thread is not just a two-way conversation between you and Rascal; many folks are reading it. Didn't seem like Rascal was using "we" meaning just you and her alone; I thought her meaning was clear and I think the use of that inclusion opened the door to other varying opinions in this thread. But being a tool does not apply to me, WhiteDove (and I believe many many others) because of the recognition that our actions in twi were free will decisions that "we" take full responsibility for. Can't blame anyone else. WhiteDove may want to add more reasons why. What may have been in someone else's mind, their possible abuse of someones time and money, their mindset and their sins, is for God to judge. Doesn't make me a tool. God is the judge and searcher of hearts and motives and sins, that's His job.
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JeffSjo
Oldiesman,
Paul was attempting to teach the Corinthians to judge these things correctly. Not to ignore the wickedness and claim the Grace of God covered. Their glorying was not good, as Paul said. IMO neither is TWI tools who hold to the good and ignore the bad, while they do everything in their power to shut TWI victims up.
This is how I feel about your unwelcome input in Rascal's post. If you had the descency to say something like, "Gee Jeff, I'm sorry that I stepped on your toes" before you tried to justify your actions I would feel differently than I do now. I've heard you and/or WD say things like "Butt out" or similar sentiments when you felt that you toes were stepped on, so you ought to know what it feels like.
I feel that in this instance we need to be able to judge these past events and the repercussions that still exist today correctly. Paul wanted the corinthians to learn to judge correctly. IMO simply saying, "God will judge" without dealing with things as they really are is a TWI cop out that I first heard (albeit 2nd hand) of, that it came out of Wierwille's very own mouth when confronted with Way Corps sexual misconduct. That is why I believe that your attitude is still effectively carrying on in TWI fashion. Don't be a tool Oldies.
(edited for clarity)
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oldiesman
Look at the context of I Cor. 5, it is present tense. Present Tense of his time. Paul was correcting the actions of current happenings of his time, not talking about former events of 30 years ago.
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JeffSjo
Paul was trying to prevent things from going like they did in The Way International. It's too bad that Wierwille wasn't up to teaching the scriptures as they were known in the first century. Many people wouldn't be dead or broken now.
(edited for clarity)
I have to leave now for a bit. If Oldies or anyone responds to this post, I'll read it later. :)
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geisha779
Gee it sounded like the "Royal" we to me--When we use the word "WE" We don't mean W-E-E, we are using it like the queen of England refering to the immensity of the kingdom and everything it represents. We the queen of England. Reminds me of the time I was in England and they told me to line up for the queue--I didn't know if I was supposed to go to the pool room --or what?
You know why they didn't play cards on Noah's Ark--cause Noah sat on the deck!
What do you think the color of those living room curtains were? They were FIRE ENGINE RED!!
What a crock!!
Count me in with the "WE" who is still a bit ticked off.
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cheranne
I'm throwing this in here too.
http://www.slide.com/r/xs_5g0AC7j-wUAJiLeK...p;view=original
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WordWolf
T0m M1tchell was not better off for his experiences in twi.
He blew his brains out on twi grounds because he wasn't able to deal with
the mog- in this case lcm- having sex with T0m's wife, and he wasn't
able to stop it, or approve or accept it.
He was NOT better off for his experiences there.
==========
I find a bland, ridiculous comment was more along the lines of "let's see
if I can change the subject again", and not a matter of "I have something
to add to the discussion."
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WordWolf
Gee, only ONE VERSE about leaven?
Matthew 16:6-12 (NASB)
6And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
7They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, "He said that because we did not bring any bread."
8But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselves that you have no bread?
9"Do you not yet understand or remember (J)the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up?
10"Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets full you picked up?
11"How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
12Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of
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I Corinthians 5:1-13 (NASB)
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
=======================
Galatians 5:9-16 (NASB)
9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
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Not for nothing were we warned "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."
(I Corinthians 5 AND Galatians 5.)
God wanted to let us know that perfectly godly stuff-with a small amount of adulteration- can be degraded
so it's no longer what He wanted.
(If one is to believe I Corinthians 5 and Galatians 5, anyway- I've seen someone argue against it while claiming
they believe the whole Bible.)
Do you know how little the amount of CYANIDE it took to turn the "Jonestown koolaid" (flavoraid) from a refreshing drink into a deadly poison? Not a lot. Probably didn't affect the taste, even. Take the ventilation system of a skyscraper, with ionized, filtered air. Clean and pure. Introduce a TINY amount of SARIN to the air, and the people will all suddenly drop dead. Why? Because when something pure has small amounts of something DANGEROUS and DEADLY added to it, adulterating its contents, the entire substance is compromised. Would you be willing to drink a liter of spring water that had a 1/2 ounce of arsenic added? If so, do so in the lobby of the hospital, or you'll never make it in time.
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Leaven
(1.) Hebrews seor (Exodus 12:15, 19; 13:7; Leviticus 2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid.
(2.) Hebrews hamets, properly "ferment." In Numbers 6:3, "vinegar of wine" is more correctly "fermented wine." In Exodus 13:7, the proper rendering would be, "Unfermented things [Hebrews matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened mass [seor] in all thy borders." The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is "a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion."
The use of leaven was strictly forbidden in all offerings made to the Lord by fire (Leviticus 2:11; 7:12; 8:2; Numbers 6:15). Its secretly penetrating and diffusive power is referred to in 1 Corinthians 5:6. In this respect it is used to illustrate the growth of the kingdom of heaven both in the individual heart and in the world (Matthew 13:33). It is a figure also of corruptness and of perverseness of heart and life (Matthew 16:6, 11; Mark 8:15; 1 Corinthians 5:7, 8).
Reference - Easton's Bible Dictionary
================
What does that have to do with this discussion?
So long as one holds on to the leaven of twi, whether it be 20, 30, 100 years ago, it is still a problem.
Beware the leaven of vpw.
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oldiesman
This cyanide analogy never worked for me. How do we know that there isn't a little poison in every religious group and denomination? There may be! Heck some people even think the entire bible is rubbish and poison.
What is the answer? I believe the answer is to beware of everything one hears and reads. Test the knowledge, test the spirits. God gave mankind a brain with the ability to separate truth from error and that includes the ability to separate any harmful doctrine of twi away from the good. Take out the harmful leaven and get the new lump. The good does not have to be trashed along with the evil, in fact, I believe that interpretation is erroneous. Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.
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