She was looking for help, and I didn't help. NOW I JUST DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO HER.
I don't think we were anywhere near equipped to help. We were trained how to behave about the mogster, how to witness, how to run classes, set up and run meetings, how and when to give money.. but when it came to actually helping someone, I don't think so.
There are people that I have no idea what happened to either..
I think we were trained to be helpless.
add to that the stigma attached to seeking outside help.
I sold pfal class to be sure and many of my friends and family took the class.
I never promoted twi after the class for them, I did ask them if they wanted to go to "fellowship' with me and many did for a awhile a few times then slowly drifted away.
I stayed friends with yfriends even if they did not go or take a class.
the one guy who was a strict trinitarian had huge issues with me and twi and i blew his concerns off easy as I was never into Jesus being god in the first place but we remained friends then he got involved ..
and lost his mind , left the church in which he was very involved , left his long standing girlfriend in whom he was engaged... all out for twi.
I watched him change into a different person all together and wehad been frinds for over a decade.
he married a girl who wanted to go into the corps with them and this guy had MONEY MONEY MONEY owed a beautiful farm left it all to go in the corps.
then i was marked and avoided and he did call me and I told him what happened I thought we were friends .
he didnt believe me and called me a liar.
ok
years later he came back in town for a vist and had the old gang back together for his wifes birthday party few from high went I went I loved him and was happy and had been out of the way for a few years.
we could hardly speak, it was so intense the party was nice a catered affair and guess what it was a solid recruitment for twi... I recognize it as such and said you know I am the one who got YOU involved you think i do not see what your doing here a birthday party my butt.
his wife was not allowed to speak to me (mind you we were all best buddies before the way for years) this was her birthday party he knew i was not going back. He knew the new leaders coming in to the area and wanted to help them start a class.
I was so very upset i could hardly drive home. not that he was so involved or even the sly recruitment under the guise of a birthday party( that was often the case on how they began a class here) it was the fact we were such good friends had been through so much the death of my bro even... and now he would just hate me.
then is when i knew twi was not gods ministry or even ever was and told him so.
i WILL NEVER BELIEVE GOD WILL HAVE YOU STOP LOVING SOMONE FOR hIM. EVER.
i heard he is clergy now and i still have the little card he gave me as I left that day of the area leaders.
how do I feel. honestly I do not today regret or feel shame about having so many take pfal, it was a bible class and you know we were all young and stuid some sold drugs i sold pfal im ok with who I am.
I miss my friend and I know they never had kids by choice becuase of their desire to "move the word" put god first yadayada.
I tried to tell him he wouldnt hear me to get out and im also very ok with that.
I hope they are happy , i learned a long time ago Im not responsible for what others choose to do in their life.
Ham said he thinks we were trianed to be helpless.
yep
it is a very close link to the co-depency issues many in our society cope with.
codepency is huge for baby boomers.
our father drak and it was not an issue drugs were a problem but no one really knew just how and mostly it was a time when "help was not happening or cool.
we as a genration had issues... of codepency and that is why the groups like twi were a natural fit for so many.
i think a great deal of healing can be had if one chooses to study the effects of co-depency on a soul and apply them to their decisions while involved in twi.
It somehow amazes me to think of all the enablers and helpers this whole women abusing TWI must have groomed to help them abuse women. I wish for their sake that they are able to come to open and honest terms with these things. They were even more of a tool than I was IMO.
But as far as former top leadership goes, I think that if they won't deal with these things in the public eye, then they'd be better off just being quiet. Either way, they'll have to face the Lord, the same as me.
I never knew about the sexploitation until the lawsuits - just simply never ran into it, except for a couple girls I knew said they had affairs with some previous leaders. The politics and control I guess I went along with it and probably came off like those above me came off to me. So in that I suppose I was a tool. I started to see things then spoke up, then got in increasing amounts of trouble, then left. Not a unique story at all.
I don't know really how I deal with having been a tool. I'm not in a 12 step program or anything. "Hi, I'm a tool, but I haven't tooled anyone for 1354 days". I guess the more disgusted I became with the examples above me the less I wanted to imitate them. Hopefully that's steered me towards non-tool land.
Great subject, Jeff. I have to deal with having been a twi tool everyday, especially jobwise. It's hard not to notice it in the form of retirement funds and current job situation, but then I was not one of the faster ones to chase down new cheese sources. I found several that ran out and had to keep searching for just the right kind of cheese. Now that I've found it, the cheese is there, but most of it is in reserve for younger mice. :( Thank goodness perseverence is one of my strong points. ^_^
And, yes, I'm so sorry I promoted that sesspool, also, in addition to shooting myself in the foot for putting my real life on hold. I've apologized to everyone I know who I've hurt that I could find. Just hope the Lord can look at me and say he forgives me, too, when I see him.
But as far as former top leadership goes, I think that if they won't deal with these things in the public eye, then they'd be better off just being quiet. Either way, they'll have to face the Lord, the same as me.
I think if they can't deal with it PUBLICALLY, they have no godly business starting a new twi knockoff, corps lookalike "training" or any such nonsense.
they've like.. moved from under the cover of one organization which thrived on authoritarianism, abuse and lack of accountability to another..
I really think it comes down to money and power. pfal and it's clones are cash cows..
it's like when twi ship was burning and sinking.. it wasn't "save the women and children first.."
It was more like.. "for gawd's sakes, get those tapes and books on a lifeboat.."
IMO if they can't face the music as it concerns their past now, then what chance do they have before the Lord. And if many of us who were not involved in the sexual abuse have accountability issues, then those who were involved cannot possibly deserve to teach anything billed as "Truth."
Recently I talked to a sweet woman and Corps grad who helped me after I was kicked out of my splinter group. I was dissapointed to hear that the first thing out of her mouth when I brought up TWI abuse was that the victims deserve the blame for their predicament. (Another programmed TWI tool IMO) It was amazing to me that she would say that even though she witnessed TWI leadership trolling for chicks within the Corps program training that she went through. In every other respect she is a wonderful and compassionate person. But this darn blaming the victim crapola that was spearheaded by Martindale and Geer is persistently wicked.
Sadly, ever since she helped me she's distanced herself from me. I think that I might be more trouble than she wants to deal with, I don't blame her for that, it's just a little sad I guess.
I thought this was going to be a thread about another one of those sappy VP and Howard skits about the "toolbox' Hey I have all the tools but I'm not gonna work. Or maybe one about VP's jack. Perhaps we should investigate just what the correlation between" tools" and TWI was. Why were they so fascinated with their " tools "? :blink:
Me I never thought of myself as a tool but........It did make me think of Peter ,Paul and Mary ( not the biblical ones)
If I Had A Hammer
Peter, Paul & Mary
Songwriters: Lee Hays and Pete Seeger
If I had a hammer,
I'd hammer in the morning,
I'd hammer in the evening,
All over this land,
I'd hammer out danger,
I'd hammer out a warning,
I'd hammer out love between,
My brothers and my sisters,
All over this land.
If I had a bell,
I'd ring it in the morning,
I'd ring it in the evening,
All over this land,
I'd ring out danger,
I'd ring out a warning,
I'd ring out love between,
My brothers and my sisters,
All over this land.
If I had a song
I'd sing it in the morning
I'd sing it in the evening
all over this land
I'd sing out danger
I'd sing out warning
I'd sing out love between
my brothers and my sisters
all over this land
Well, I've got a hammer
and I've got a bell
and I've got a song to sing
all over this land
It's the hammer of justice
It's the bell of freedom
It's a song about love between my
brothers and my sisters
all over this land
It's the hammer of justice
It's the bell of freedom
It's a song about love between my brothers and my sisters
What was tougher, though, was realizing I had played an unwitting role in the deception of others.
There is an understandable sense of guilt that accompanies that realization.
Knowing you feel a sense of remorse for your contribution, however big or small, says a whole lot, at least to me, about the integrity of your personal character.
It's a serious topic, not one to be dismissed lightly.
What was tougher, though, was realizing I had played an unwitting role in the deception of others.
There is an understandable sense of guilt that accompanies that realization.
Knowing you feel a sense of remorse for your contribution, however big or small, says a whole lot, at least to me, about the integrity of your personal character.
It's a serious topic, not one to be dismissed lightly.
Dear Waysider,
I've been thinking about this and it seems to track with your post. TWI claimed that the Grace of God covered their faults. Ethically this seems to me to be wrong; biblically, this seems like pure fantasy.
I think that for those who were taught that the Grace of God somehow covers sexual abuse or even worse, transforms sexual abuse into serving God were the biggest tools of all.
For anybody who's had a change of heart that was in this boat, I would hope that they'de find the courage to share about it and I also hope that even the injured would find it in their hearts to not condemn the ones who are truly sorry.
But for those who haven't dealt with their guilt, whether it was a lot or a little, I think that at best, they could be a tool for those who've taught that in order to honor God we need to ignore these things. I think that some folks have a hard time facing these things, and for them I feel compassion. I have no intention to allow them to "tread on" TWI victims no matter what their motivation is.
For those who refuse to be honest and are only trying to cover their assets (Know what I mean?) I have no empathy for and I think that they will probably find themselves in a very bad place when they are judged. (I'm not talking about me judging them, or any of you either.)
It was pretty tough for me to deal with at first. I kept thinking to myself: if there is a God - would he ever forgive me for being a part of such a thing? All that money I gave, all the support, the people I talked to, the way I thought when I was younger... it's really sickening.
I have forgiven mysef since then though. It's like feeling guilty about giving money to an agency that promises to take care of homeless animals and finding out later they were just putting them down by the dozens. You feel bad you contributed to the monster - but you weren't aware of it and you certainly were never physically involved in the slaughter. The only thing I could really do was STOP feeding the monster.
I'm just glad it's over now... and they definitely won't be getting anymore of my money or time.
What was tougher, though, was realizing I had played an unwitting role in the deception of others.
There is an understandable sense of guilt that accompanies that realization.
Knowing you feel a sense of remorse for your contribution, however big or small, says a whole lot, at least to me, about the integrity of your personal character.
It's a serious topic, not one to be dismissed lightly.
Then again for many there is a sense of happiness for all those that were helped along the way. I suppose it depends on your perspective as to how one "feels" Then again how one feels seems to change over the years depending on percieved sence of loss.
Jeff, I just don`t know. It is a humbling thing isn`t it?
I mean we were God`s super heros, the *A* team spiritual warriors on a mission for God.
We sacrificed, we witnessed, we moved, we invested our finances, our time and our youth.
Then we find out ......... we were wrong. That the money that we sent to move God`s word was used to finance abortions, shopping trips, luxury vacations, a bus that women were raped on, the drugs that were given to knock them out, booze, etc.
Naturally we still want the ego stroke of being the saviors of the world....
It is tough...really really tough to look at things honestly and realize what we promoted, what people bought into because of our earnest presence, our integrity and love....was what lured people into a trap, a snare.
Not only did our decisions screw our lives up....we led others into darkness and even death :(
We were like some kind of obscene carnival barker.
The people that we witnessed to, were abused. Folks that we promised all of the answers to any question or problem that they had.... were used, were mistreated, some raped, their families ripped apart, some even died :(
For years I wrestled with how could God allow this. To this day I am suffering a crisis in my faith. I cannot trust with the complete child like faith that I once had.
The things that I did while in, the family members that I blew off and ignored because they were simply conduits for Satan to be avoided lest I be tricked away from the word....cause me shame.
I am humbled, that God seems willing to work in my life, in spite of my arrogance and stupidity. My only option is to try to be the best person that I can be for the remainder of my days.
This can`t fix the bad that I have done, but at least I maybe I won`t be causing any more harm.
Rascal was addressing me with her post and not YOU. Rascal and I apparently share some of the same feelings that you do not feel. Since Rascal was addressing me and not YOU, please keep your lack of these feelings to yourself and please keep your unwelcome input to yourself.
If you wish to expound on why these feeling are offensive to you then I believe that you should start another thread of your own. Something like, "Why feelings of accountability need not apply to me for ignoring what I knew was going on in the old days." Maybe you were not aware, I don't know for sure. Maybe you didn't blow off anyone who needed help like I did, I don't know for sure.
But I am firm in this one thing with you now, since Rascal was addressing me with her post, your feeback in this instance is OFFENSIVE TO ME.
Dear Nero,
You've shared before that with your family that there are still ties to TWI. I hope that these things have worked out for you and your family's sake.
However it has worked out so far, I'm glad that you seem to have settled on a course for yourself. I really hope that it goes well for you.
I understand how you feel, I'm pretty sure anyhow!?
I think that for those of us who have been burned as far as the faith goes, that childlike trust is a hard thing.
One of my favorite bible records on this topic is the widow that Elijah lived with. After he fed them miraculously by the spirit of God for a long while her son died. (I'm working off of memory, if some of the details are off, I trust the point is still sound.) It was only after he raised her child from the dead that she said," Now I know that God is with you." (Or some such sentiment) I find this record to be an AWESOME example of not being easily fooled. Even though their daily meals were miraculously provided, this wonderful woman did not "Give it up easily" as far as her childlike faith, even for Elijah. WHAT A WOMAN!!!
Rascal, I hope and trust that you will work through your challenges without being taken in again.
As far as becoming a liar's tool goes, one issue seems central to me right now. This record that I mentioned touches on it too.
It is impossible and/or highly unlikely that one of us will become a tool if we don't sell out to the idea that someone's ministry is genuine when it is in truth just a cover for scummy actions like in TWI.
"The Passing of a Patriarch" is IMO a document written for dubious reasons and filled with lies and/or ommisions that amount to lies. But even in that document Chris Geer makes it clear that to Wierwille, the idea of being convinced that his ministry was genuine was a central idea of TWI. I remember how Geer wrote that it was not spiritually sharp to let the oldtimer that came to see Wierwille into the coach just before Dr. died. The problem as it was written of was that this oldtimer never became "sold out" to Dr.'s ministry being genuine.
It seems most likely to me now that this oldtimer had some sense. I think that TWI's commitement to this supposedly genuine ministry of Wierwille's was in and of itself unbiblical. It doesn't seem a stretch to me to liken this uncommited oldtimer that Geer despised to the widow woman I spoke of to Rascal.
Time will tell, but a central idea of many abusive religious organizations is the idea of "SELLING OUT" to an individual who doesn't deserve your trust. IMO that was certainly the case in TWI.
In my splinter group, before they kicked me out that is, I made it clear that I would not witness to people and try to bring them into the fold because of how they hated me. My splinter group leader had a habit of looking right at me whenever he quoted scripture that was similar to,"I have hated every false way" etc. etc. Even my wife bought into hating me.
I responded often to some lame and/or twisted new idea by saying something like,"Gee, why don't we try serving God instead."
When I responded to their hidden accusations which they refused to confront me with with a scripture reference about the price of holding false accusations or hating the bretheren they usually had some answer. Once in response to my nudging this group to take care of the folks that were not doing well financially, the fearful leader responded by quoting the scripture that says,"The poor will be with you always, but I will not be with you always." I think this jerk will never willingly give up those who he's ensnared anyway.
When I quoted,"Thy Word is as a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces," They responded with, "The rock on which we stand is the Lord Jesus Christ."
It was a long, drawn out conflict between me and them, and my wife sided with them. But if they are wrong, then I believe that they will recieve the consequences that they deserve for their hatred, dishonesty, and twisted doctrines.
This was my life before coming to the Greasespot. I'm sharing so that you can judge for yourselves why I see what I see now, when I look at The Way International
And if you will bear with me for a little foolishness to understand how I feel..... Are you rrready to RRRhumba!!!
A guy can only take so many lies and so much hypocrisy before he has to fight back, after all.
I still consider the best of PFAL as promoting a church where any belief is subject to proving, over and over if necessary.
I still remember Wierwille saying things that painted TWI as an open and honest group, non sectarian, non denominational.
I consider PFAL as being a good enough place to start learning about the bible, but there was much that was taught that needed improving.
Then it became abusive, controling, manipulative, and sicko-psycho-twisted. Many people were hurt badly, or even died through the effects of abuse and neglect.
I told my sister about the possibility of WayGB that they are scumbags, not mobsters, just tell them to f___ off if they come around.
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Ham
I don't think we were anywhere near equipped to help. We were trained how to behave about the mogster, how to witness, how to run classes, set up and run meetings, how and when to give money.. but when it came to actually helping someone, I don't think so.
There are people that I have no idea what happened to either..
I think we were trained to be helpless.
add to that the stigma attached to seeking outside help.
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copenhagen
Jeff,
I feel your pain. I never knew of any preditory actions till it hit my family.
Leadership and I had a big blow out and this guy was moved to another area.
I thought he was being moved to get help, he was just moved it seems i was
not the only one who complained.
Then the whole lcm thing came and I was shocked. I defended the way and all
the leaders when co workers and non way friends saw things on the internet.
I was so blind when the wap class came out it took 45 mimtues for lcm to
start yelling. I wonderded why it took so long. I drank the kool aide and loved
to here him yell. It made me feel so special to be apart of the one true household,
I was with the ministry who had a direct line to God.
My world was turned up side down. With in a week i found waydale and it all came to gether.
We were fooled, lied to and put in the dark. We were pressured for more and more abs
so God would not spit on us. We lived in poverty, gave up all are free time to witness,
run a class or clean the limb home or watch thei kids. While we gave till it hurt and sacrificed
our spouses and negelected our kids, they played, took vacations and chased women then
covered it up all with our abs.
I was fooled and admit it. I promoted the way and its doctrines while they violated our sisters in
christ. I sat in the back ground while they tossed out our brothers and sisters when they were
done with them and could not keep them quiet.
I regret those things and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
But what hurts more is still being stuck in the way. I hate them and cannot
promote their doctrines. Fellowships are so fake, same prayers same people no growth.
I hope this helps, I fell I have babbled on for to long
Like you ihave tried to make amends with all I hurt.
copenhagen
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pond
I sold pfal class to be sure and many of my friends and family took the class.
I never promoted twi after the class for them, I did ask them if they wanted to go to "fellowship' with me and many did for a awhile a few times then slowly drifted away.
I stayed friends with yfriends even if they did not go or take a class.
the one guy who was a strict trinitarian had huge issues with me and twi and i blew his concerns off easy as I was never into Jesus being god in the first place but we remained friends then he got involved ..
and lost his mind , left the church in which he was very involved , left his long standing girlfriend in whom he was engaged... all out for twi.
I watched him change into a different person all together and wehad been frinds for over a decade.
he married a girl who wanted to go into the corps with them and this guy had MONEY MONEY MONEY owed a beautiful farm left it all to go in the corps.
then i was marked and avoided and he did call me and I told him what happened I thought we were friends .
he didnt believe me and called me a liar.
ok
years later he came back in town for a vist and had the old gang back together for his wifes birthday party few from high went I went I loved him and was happy and had been out of the way for a few years.
we could hardly speak, it was so intense the party was nice a catered affair and guess what it was a solid recruitment for twi... I recognize it as such and said you know I am the one who got YOU involved you think i do not see what your doing here a birthday party my butt.
his wife was not allowed to speak to me (mind you we were all best buddies before the way for years) this was her birthday party he knew i was not going back. He knew the new leaders coming in to the area and wanted to help them start a class.
I was so very upset i could hardly drive home. not that he was so involved or even the sly recruitment under the guise of a birthday party( that was often the case on how they began a class here) it was the fact we were such good friends had been through so much the death of my bro even... and now he would just hate me.
then is when i knew twi was not gods ministry or even ever was and told him so.
i WILL NEVER BELIEVE GOD WILL HAVE YOU STOP LOVING SOMONE FOR hIM. EVER.
i heard he is clergy now and i still have the little card he gave me as I left that day of the area leaders.
how do I feel. honestly I do not today regret or feel shame about having so many take pfal, it was a bible class and you know we were all young and stuid some sold drugs i sold pfal im ok with who I am.
I miss my friend and I know they never had kids by choice becuase of their desire to "move the word" put god first yadayada.
I tried to tell him he wouldnt hear me to get out and im also very ok with that.
I hope they are happy , i learned a long time ago Im not responsible for what others choose to do in their life.
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pond
Ham said he thinks we were trianed to be helpless.
yep
it is a very close link to the co-depency issues many in our society cope with.
codepency is huge for baby boomers.
our father drak and it was not an issue drugs were a problem but no one really knew just how and mostly it was a time when "help was not happening or cool.
we as a genration had issues... of codepency and that is why the groups like twi were a natural fit for so many.
i think a great deal of healing can be had if one chooses to study the effects of co-depency on a soul and apply them to their decisions while involved in twi.
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JeffSjo
Thank you everyone for the feedback.
It somehow amazes me to think of all the enablers and helpers this whole women abusing TWI must have groomed to help them abuse women. I wish for their sake that they are able to come to open and honest terms with these things. They were even more of a tool than I was IMO.
But as far as former top leadership goes, I think that if they won't deal with these things in the public eye, then they'd be better off just being quiet. Either way, they'll have to face the Lord, the same as me.
(edited for clarity)
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
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chockfull
I never knew about the sexploitation until the lawsuits - just simply never ran into it, except for a couple girls I knew said they had affairs with some previous leaders. The politics and control I guess I went along with it and probably came off like those above me came off to me. So in that I suppose I was a tool. I started to see things then spoke up, then got in increasing amounts of trouble, then left. Not a unique story at all.
I don't know really how I deal with having been a tool. I'm not in a 12 step program or anything. "Hi, I'm a tool, but I haven't tooled anyone for 1354 days". I guess the more disgusted I became with the examples above me the less I wanted to imitate them. Hopefully that's steered me towards non-tool land.
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waterbuffalo
Great subject, Jeff. I have to deal with having been a twi tool everyday, especially jobwise. It's hard not to notice it in the form of retirement funds and current job situation, but then I was not one of the faster ones to chase down new cheese sources. I found several that ran out and had to keep searching for just the right kind of cheese. Now that I've found it, the cheese is there, but most of it is in reserve for younger mice. :( Thank goodness perseverence is one of my strong points. ^_^
And, yes, I'm so sorry I promoted that sesspool, also, in addition to shooting myself in the foot for putting my real life on hold. I've apologized to everyone I know who I've hurt that I could find. Just hope the Lord can look at me and say he forgives me, too, when I see him.
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Ham
I think if they can't deal with it PUBLICALLY, they have no godly business starting a new twi knockoff, corps lookalike "training" or any such nonsense.
they've like.. moved from under the cover of one organization which thrived on authoritarianism, abuse and lack of accountability to another..
I really think it comes down to money and power. pfal and it's clones are cash cows..
it's like when twi ship was burning and sinking.. it wasn't "save the women and children first.."
It was more like.. "for gawd's sakes, get those tapes and books on a lifeboat.."
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JeffSjo
Dear Waterbuffalo,
It's like that for me too in many ways.
Dear Ham,
IMO if they can't face the music as it concerns their past now, then what chance do they have before the Lord. And if many of us who were not involved in the sexual abuse have accountability issues, then those who were involved cannot possibly deserve to teach anything billed as "Truth."
________________________________________________________________________________
Recently I talked to a sweet woman and Corps grad who helped me after I was kicked out of my splinter group. I was dissapointed to hear that the first thing out of her mouth when I brought up TWI abuse was that the victims deserve the blame for their predicament. (Another programmed TWI tool IMO) It was amazing to me that she would say that even though she witnessed TWI leadership trolling for chicks within the Corps program training that she went through. In every other respect she is a wonderful and compassionate person. But this darn blaming the victim crapola that was spearheaded by Martindale and Geer is persistently wicked.
Sadly, ever since she helped me she's distanced herself from me. I think that I might be more trouble than she wants to deal with, I don't blame her for that, it's just a little sad I guess.
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WhiteDove
Me I never thought of myself as a tool but........It did make me think of Peter ,Paul and Mary ( not the biblical ones)
If I Had A Hammer
Peter, Paul & Mary
Songwriters: Lee Hays and Pete Seeger
If I had a hammer,
I'd hammer in the morning,
I'd hammer in the evening,
All over this land,
I'd hammer out danger,
I'd hammer out a warning,
I'd hammer out love between,
My brothers and my sisters,
All over this land.
If I had a bell,
I'd ring it in the morning,
I'd ring it in the evening,
All over this land,
I'd ring out danger,
I'd ring out a warning,
I'd ring out love between,
My brothers and my sisters,
All over this land.
If I had a song
I'd sing it in the morning
I'd sing it in the evening
all over this land
I'd sing out danger
I'd sing out warning
I'd sing out love between
my brothers and my sisters
all over this land
Well, I've got a hammer
and I've got a bell
and I've got a song to sing
all over this land
It's the hammer of justice
It's the bell of freedom
It's a song about love between my
brothers and my sisters
all over this land
It's the hammer of justice
It's the bell of freedom
It's a song about love between my brothers and my sisters
All over this la-a-and
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waysider
Thank you for starting this thread, JeffSjo.
It was tough finding out I had been duped.
What was tougher, though, was realizing I had played an unwitting role in the deception of others.
There is an understandable sense of guilt that accompanies that realization.
Knowing you feel a sense of remorse for your contribution, however big or small, says a whole lot, at least to me, about the integrity of your personal character.
It's a serious topic, not one to be dismissed lightly.
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JeffSjo
Dear Waysider,
I've been thinking about this and it seems to track with your post. TWI claimed that the Grace of God covered their faults. Ethically this seems to me to be wrong; biblically, this seems like pure fantasy.
I think that for those who were taught that the Grace of God somehow covers sexual abuse or even worse, transforms sexual abuse into serving God were the biggest tools of all.
For anybody who's had a change of heart that was in this boat, I would hope that they'de find the courage to share about it and I also hope that even the injured would find it in their hearts to not condemn the ones who are truly sorry.
But for those who haven't dealt with their guilt, whether it was a lot or a little, I think that at best, they could be a tool for those who've taught that in order to honor God we need to ignore these things. I think that some folks have a hard time facing these things, and for them I feel compassion. I have no intention to allow them to "tread on" TWI victims no matter what their motivation is.
For those who refuse to be honest and are only trying to cover their assets (Know what I mean?) I have no empathy for and I think that they will probably find themselves in a very bad place when they are judged. (I'm not talking about me judging them, or any of you either.)
(edited for spelling)
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Nero
It was pretty tough for me to deal with at first. I kept thinking to myself: if there is a God - would he ever forgive me for being a part of such a thing? All that money I gave, all the support, the people I talked to, the way I thought when I was younger... it's really sickening.
I have forgiven mysef since then though. It's like feeling guilty about giving money to an agency that promises to take care of homeless animals and finding out later they were just putting them down by the dozens. You feel bad you contributed to the monster - but you weren't aware of it and you certainly were never physically involved in the slaughter. The only thing I could really do was STOP feeding the monster.
I'm just glad it's over now... and they definitely won't be getting anymore of my money or time.
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WhiteDove
Then again for many there is a sense of happiness for all those that were helped along the way. I suppose it depends on your perspective as to how one "feels" Then again how one feels seems to change over the years depending on percieved sence of loss.
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rascal
Jeff, I just don`t know. It is a humbling thing isn`t it?
I mean we were God`s super heros, the *A* team spiritual warriors on a mission for God.
We sacrificed, we witnessed, we moved, we invested our finances, our time and our youth.
Then we find out ......... we were wrong. That the money that we sent to move God`s word was used to finance abortions, shopping trips, luxury vacations, a bus that women were raped on, the drugs that were given to knock them out, booze, etc.
Naturally we still want the ego stroke of being the saviors of the world....
It is tough...really really tough to look at things honestly and realize what we promoted, what people bought into because of our earnest presence, our integrity and love....was what lured people into a trap, a snare.
Not only did our decisions screw our lives up....we led others into darkness and even death :(
We were like some kind of obscene carnival barker.
The people that we witnessed to, were abused. Folks that we promised all of the answers to any question or problem that they had.... were used, were mistreated, some raped, their families ripped apart, some even died :(
For years I wrestled with how could God allow this. To this day I am suffering a crisis in my faith. I cannot trust with the complete child like faith that I once had.
The things that I did while in, the family members that I blew off and ignored because they were simply conduits for Satan to be avoided lest I be tricked away from the word....cause me shame.
I am humbled, that God seems willing to work in my life, in spite of my arrogance and stupidity. My only option is to try to be the best person that I can be for the remainder of my days.
This can`t fix the bad that I have done, but at least I maybe I won`t be causing any more harm.
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oldiesman
The "we" is offensive. Speak for yourself please.
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rascal
If you wouldn`t apply yourself to my *we* there would be no need to be offended.
Let`s try not to borrow a reason to get our panties in a twist, shall we? :)
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waysider
Tough beans!!
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JeffSjo
Oldiesman,
Rascal was addressing me with her post and not YOU. Rascal and I apparently share some of the same feelings that you do not feel. Since Rascal was addressing me and not YOU, please keep your lack of these feelings to yourself and please keep your unwelcome input to yourself.
If you wish to expound on why these feeling are offensive to you then I believe that you should start another thread of your own. Something like, "Why feelings of accountability need not apply to me for ignoring what I knew was going on in the old days." Maybe you were not aware, I don't know for sure. Maybe you didn't blow off anyone who needed help like I did, I don't know for sure.
But I am firm in this one thing with you now, since Rascal was addressing me with her post, your feeback in this instance is OFFENSIVE TO ME.
Dear Nero,
You've shared before that with your family that there are still ties to TWI. I hope that these things have worked out for you and your family's sake.
However it has worked out so far, I'm glad that you seem to have settled on a course for yourself. I really hope that it goes well for you.
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
I understand how you feel, I'm pretty sure anyhow!?
I think that for those of us who have been burned as far as the faith goes, that childlike trust is a hard thing.
One of my favorite bible records on this topic is the widow that Elijah lived with. After he fed them miraculously by the spirit of God for a long while her son died. (I'm working off of memory, if some of the details are off, I trust the point is still sound.) It was only after he raised her child from the dead that she said," Now I know that God is with you." (Or some such sentiment) I find this record to be an AWESOME example of not being easily fooled. Even though their daily meals were miraculously provided, this wonderful woman did not "Give it up easily" as far as her childlike faith, even for Elijah. WHAT A WOMAN!!!
Rascal, I hope and trust that you will work through your challenges without being taken in again.
JEFF
(edited for grammar and spelling)
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JeffSjo
As far as becoming a liar's tool goes, one issue seems central to me right now. This record that I mentioned touches on it too.
It is impossible and/or highly unlikely that one of us will become a tool if we don't sell out to the idea that someone's ministry is genuine when it is in truth just a cover for scummy actions like in TWI.
"The Passing of a Patriarch" is IMO a document written for dubious reasons and filled with lies and/or ommisions that amount to lies. But even in that document Chris Geer makes it clear that to Wierwille, the idea of being convinced that his ministry was genuine was a central idea of TWI. I remember how Geer wrote that it was not spiritually sharp to let the oldtimer that came to see Wierwille into the coach just before Dr. died. The problem as it was written of was that this oldtimer never became "sold out" to Dr.'s ministry being genuine.
It seems most likely to me now that this oldtimer had some sense. I think that TWI's commitement to this supposedly genuine ministry of Wierwille's was in and of itself unbiblical. It doesn't seem a stretch to me to liken this uncommited oldtimer that Geer despised to the widow woman I spoke of to Rascal.
Time will tell, but a central idea of many abusive religious organizations is the idea of "SELLING OUT" to an individual who doesn't deserve your trust. IMO that was certainly the case in TWI.
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JeffSjo
In my splinter group, before they kicked me out that is, I made it clear that I would not witness to people and try to bring them into the fold because of how they hated me. My splinter group leader had a habit of looking right at me whenever he quoted scripture that was similar to,"I have hated every false way" etc. etc. Even my wife bought into hating me.
I responded often to some lame and/or twisted new idea by saying something like,"Gee, why don't we try serving God instead."
When I responded to their hidden accusations which they refused to confront me with with a scripture reference about the price of holding false accusations or hating the bretheren they usually had some answer. Once in response to my nudging this group to take care of the folks that were not doing well financially, the fearful leader responded by quoting the scripture that says,"The poor will be with you always, but I will not be with you always." I think this jerk will never willingly give up those who he's ensnared anyway.
When I quoted,"Thy Word is as a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces," They responded with, "The rock on which we stand is the Lord Jesus Christ."
It was a long, drawn out conflict between me and them, and my wife sided with them. But if they are wrong, then I believe that they will recieve the consequences that they deserve for their hatred, dishonesty, and twisted doctrines.
This was my life before coming to the Greasespot. I'm sharing so that you can judge for yourselves why I see what I see now, when I look at The Way International
(edited for grammar)
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JeffSjo
And if you will bear with me for a little foolishness to understand how I feel..... Are you rrready to RRRhumba!!!
A guy can only take so many lies and so much hypocrisy before he has to fight back, after all.
I still consider the best of PFAL as promoting a church where any belief is subject to proving, over and over if necessary.
I still remember Wierwille saying things that painted TWI as an open and honest group, non sectarian, non denominational.
I consider PFAL as being a good enough place to start learning about the bible, but there was much that was taught that needed improving.
Then it became abusive, controling, manipulative, and sicko-psycho-twisted. Many people were hurt badly, or even died through the effects of abuse and neglect.
I told my sister about the possibility of WayGB that they are scumbags, not mobsters, just tell them to f___ off if they come around.
(edited for grammar)
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WhiteDove
We are so very thankful for the opportunity that we had to learn the word from VP Wierwille
We are all so much better off for our experiences in the Way.
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