Socks, I think you hit the nail on the head. Whether cancer was supposed to be a devil spirit or not (and I think your post more accurately presents the nuances of that teaching), the bottom line is VP was presented as the Man of God For Our Time, a pioneer of faith based abundant living. The idea that such a man, a modern day Apostle, would succumb to ANY disease at his age contradicts the very premise of PFAL.
I remember hearing that the first time VP asked Craig to minister to him Craig was stunned because the idea that his mentor would need someone else's help was an alien concept.
So the underlying problem is that the champion of believing for health and prosperity failed to walk the talk in his own life. We can say that everyone dies at some time, but the thing that sticks in my mind is that we were taught that VP was a college friend of the great evangelists Billy Graham and Oral Roberts. I keep looking at the relative longevity of those men vs Wierwille's. Billy Graham is 93: "well stricken in years". Roberts lived to be 91. Wierwille only lived to 69. That's not a long life for a preacher, imho. (Of course, most Fundamentalist preachers don't smoke cigarettes and drink Drambuie as earlier noted)
I keep wondering if the Lord didn't cut his time short because he was weighed in the balance and found wanting.
He cut his own life short, by his choice of lifestyle, JBarrax.
Coming back to the topic: I suppose it doesn't really matter whether his eye was lost due to a fish hook, or whether due to cancer. This is a man who taught that prayer and believing could deal with anything.
So if he is off on a fishing trip with the other trustees (as claimed) - couldn't the trustees have prayed and healed the damage caused by the fish hook? (After rushing him to the hospital to have the barbed part removed, of course).
How do you get a fish hook in your eye anyway, if you wear glasses? (When did he start wearing glasses?)
And then there is prayer for healing...or the casting out (a) devil spirit(s).
That ....cancer is "a" devil spirit is an idea that would seem to be found in the N.T. gospels...... is probably supportable but only in a very general way, IMO. It's something of a theological supposition, more or less. If a person were looking at specific records and taking a very literal approach I don't think we see that in the gospels or other N. T. writings that are in the canon. From that angle I'd end up saying "it's possible".
What that means is what I gave a great deal of thought to - for what that's worth. It really illustrates that if that is indeed the case then we have a view into how the "spiritual" realm works that presents more questions, questions that aren't answered in the A. C. material. IMO, anyway. There's people that probably still believe that, lock/stock and barrel, from the A. C. but if sorted out scripturally or logically we end up with something that is as much a medical concern as it is a "spiritual" one.
Where did the fish hook story come from? We were told that the damage to VP's eyes was caused by Howard Allen not setting the lighting properly when the filmed the first Pfille class back in the 60s. When Wierwille announced that he was having that eye removed, he said that he'd been dealing with constant pain in his eyes since they filmed THE CLASS.
Did they later announce that the one that wasn't burned out and removed was later wounded by a fish hook? If so, what are the odds that a man would have two major --but separate--injuries, one resulting in the removal of an organ the other resulting in death. That's just too much of a stretch for me.
Cancer is a physical disease which can be diagnosed by the 5 senses. Someone posted earlier that cancer falls on the dark side, or something. If it were possible, every cell in the body would become a cancer cell. Extremely parasitic. Fits the profile of steal, kill, and destroy.
I'm guessing that the first person who ever had cancer WAS possessed. Those spirits used the person's body as a laboratory. This could still happen, but by now there HAS to be ways cancer can be caused by something that enters the body from without. Air, water, or food perhaps. It doesn't have to originate inside the body. I heard recently that animals in the wild never get cancer, but animals in captivity get it all the time. Hmm.
I was on staff for three years before VPW's death and one year after. I never heard any story about a fish hook in his eye. I never saw him walking around with a patch over his eye, either, until it was removed and replaced with the glass eye. If he'd gotten a fish hook in his eye, there would have been a patch or a bandage.
On several occasions I heard Mrs. W and others talk about how VPW's eyes had been burned during the filming. I never heard Howard Allen blamed for it though, Jerry.
I remember a similiar thread from back in the early 2000's. I felt compelled to add a new medical report that said that every adult human being generates an average of 250,000 new cancer cells a day throughout his life. A normal function of white cells is to take these cancer cells out. This was a fact from some published medical journal. I suppose if someone wants to, it is still findable on the net.
All things considered, I guess we should be thankful cancer is not a lot more prevailent in this ol' world.
The part I found amusing is that the medical facts prove that by 'wayfacts' every human being on the planet is possessed by a quarter million devil spuruts.
What an enjoyable read. It does my heart good to see so many old friends here and such a concern for the facts. I am fascinated by the implication there might have been a poisoning or a suicide. I was at HQ that week when VP returned and left just before he died. I remember the going to gartmore well and coming back sick business, and the personal sense of dread when I left the area.
For what it is worth, I was in the Air Force from 1966 to 72 and was trained in all things photography as it was known at the time. I learned all things camera from 8"x10' deardorf view to 16mm movie. All things film in black 'n' white to color negative and reversal, and all things printing. I have processed base activities, bomb drop films, radar images, and very strange images out of SR-71 blackbirds.
While in the service, I became active in the base amateur theater guild and there did lighting for for a couple years amongst other things. The lights we had there were generically called kleigs or fresnells and looked like black one gallon paint cans on a swivel stick. From maybe 1910 thru at least the '70s the standard light source was an incandescent light bulb from 125 to 2000 watts in power.
When I walked thru the way auditorium in 1985 I saw the exact same kleigs but cannot guarrantee the light source as halogen lights had changed many things in the late '70s.
From my dimming memories of "the way, living in love" by Elena Whiteside mixed with a couple historical exhibits of the filming of the class around HQ. I remember pictures of the studio set, the cameras and lights and crew which was most or all wafers. There were seven or ten kleigs of the 250 to 500 watt variety. The camera was an ordinary workhorse 16mm movie maker standard from the '50s thru '70s.
The story as I recall was they rented the equipment and studio for two weeks in dayton in 1967 and had to film it in that period. The people who rented them the equipment told them it was not wise to film it in such a short period as it could damage the eyes. VP made the decision to push thru and do it in the two weeks in spite of the warnings.
What needs to be understood is color movie film was very slow in the '60s. At a speed rating of ASA 25 or 50, 1960s color film needed from 100 to 200 times more light than a modern digital camera to get a proper exposure.
Another way to put that would be lighting your 10x15 living room with 25 100 watt bulbs and they are all focused by polished reflectors at you. The heat would be as obnoxious as the brightness.
In our little theater the actors were warned not to look at the lights too long or you could get 'kleig eye' the symptoms are exactly the same as VPs or the welders. the actors were to look above the audience but below the kleigs.
One last tidbit under useless information for you. Each segment of the class was about 20 minutes long. A fact i'm sure many remembered while waiting for a snack break or a much needed stretch. The segments were 20 minutes long because that was the time limitation of the 400 foot film cassettes used in the cameras.
For those on page 6 who haven't bothered to read the beginning of the thread and thus don't really know what's being talked about:
I posted elsewhere about the loss of VPW's eye and was asked by another visitor to the Cafe to open this for discussion. Apparently the reason for removal isn't widely known.
It was put about that he had suffered so much during the filming of PFAL, what with the bright lights and all.
But I was told by Rev J0hn Rexn0lds, Coordinator of International Outreach, with whom I had worked a lot of time, that in fact the eye that was removed was injured as a result a fish hook that he got in his eye when he was off fishing with the BoT on a "ministry planning meeting." The meeting obviously took place in a river where he was washing some sins away or being baptized or something (LOL).
The injured eye was not removed due to damage caused by the filming (even though it may have been damaged during the filming).
Don't know if JRR was present at the BoT meeting and it was long before he himself was appointed to the BoT (but he was a very early Corpsman and had been around for many years). JRR certainly worked very very closely with H0ward All3n and no doubt if JRR was not there, H0ward would have told him.
There may be other people posting here who have been around for a very long time, who could corroborate the story, if this had been made known to them. Sunesis? DWBH? I have to say that I had no doubt about JRR's explanation, either then or now.
But as well as that, I don't doubt that filming under bright lights may have caused injury in the OTHER eye, or some damage which may have led to cancer.
dabobbada, that's interesting stuff you say. Thanks.
Dabobbada, great to see you here, and thanks for the info!
Twinky, I did read the whole thread, but I didn't go back and reread the posts that are almost 3 years old. I'd forgotten that you had posted about the fish hook explanation.
All I was saying is that I was at HQ for 3 years before VP died and 1 year after, and I never heard about the fish hook story and never saw any evidence of its having happened. It sounds to me like Reynolds made up the story (or was fed the story by LCM, RFR, or someone) to cover up for VPW's cancer. Lord knows there were plenty of people at the top who were capable of and perfectly willing to lie lest twi's reputation suffer in any way.
It is good to see you too. I come by and keep an eye on things around here. I don''t have much energy to reply much though. My medical problems caused me to go on disability back in '04 and I had to move to my very rural home town to be able to live. It was late 2010 when I was able to get back on the net again.
Ohio limb had a function at the state fairgrounds shortly after the operation. There were rumors running rampant about some medical condition but officially little was said. When VP spoke, he looked, sounded and acted weak and distant to me. It left me for the first time realizing his mortality.
Twinky,
Though I don't doubt your source and story, I have not heard of it before.
The well documented and many personal excesses and abuses have been brought up as possible reasons for VPs surgury. Medical and Psychiatric folks would readily tell us that any one excess or abuse puts a great deal of stress on the body and weakens the immune system. The many abuses pursued with such gusto by VP within the inner way mystery religion certainly set him up for a trainwreck worthy of a hollywood blockbuster.
So I nominate all of the above.
From the scriptural viewpoint, even from a casual read, the OT prophets, kings and servants of God who abused God's Kids always ended up in a bad place.
I heard once from a reliable source that some of VP's last words were to the effect of wondering what he had done wrong.
What he had done wrong!!?
WHAT HE HAD DONE WRONG?!!
What he had done wrong was abusing God's Grace by indulging his personal cravings for many things under the banner of God's Grace. Then he abused God's Daughters under God's Grace. Then he taught God's Leaders of the inner way mystery religion circle to abuse as he had abused.... supposing to be under God's Grace.
(Let us sin that grace may abound... for answer see Romans.)
It is said that it's better to tie a boulder around your neck and jump in the lake than to harm one of God's little ones. The second great commandment is love your neighbor as yourself. The whole purpose of life is to celebrate life with God and your neighbors.
There is a photo of VPW's death certificate, which cites ocular melanoma (cancer) as primary cause of death, on www.abouttheway.org
The site also has a detailed article on the ramifications of VP having cancer, which he always taught is due to a devil spirit. VP apparently not only was unable to believe for his healing, but also caused his own disease by his negative believing- and was also possessed by a devil spirit. A false teacher and false believer.
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dabobbada
I remember a similiar thread from back in the early 2000's. I felt compelled to add a new medical report that said that every adult human being generates an average of 250,000 new cancer cells a day t
waysider
Yes, you are.
excathedra
i really miss so many of these past posters
this place has gone downhill
but i have to say this really caught my eye (what a great thread name lol):
that just made laugh
don't know if i read this thread before
it's too long now
but the parts i did read were great
thanks
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Jbarrax
Socks, I think you hit the nail on the head. Whether cancer was supposed to be a devil spirit or not (and I think your post more accurately presents the nuances of that teaching), the bottom line is VP was presented as the Man of God For Our Time, a pioneer of faith based abundant living. The idea that such a man, a modern day Apostle, would succumb to ANY disease at his age contradicts the very premise of PFAL.
I remember hearing that the first time VP asked Craig to minister to him Craig was stunned because the idea that his mentor would need someone else's help was an alien concept.
So the underlying problem is that the champion of believing for health and prosperity failed to walk the talk in his own life. We can say that everyone dies at some time, but the thing that sticks in my mind is that we were taught that VP was a college friend of the great evangelists Billy Graham and Oral Roberts. I keep looking at the relative longevity of those men vs Wierwille's. Billy Graham is 93: "well stricken in years". Roberts lived to be 91. Wierwille only lived to 69. That's not a long life for a preacher, imho. (Of course, most Fundamentalist preachers don't smoke cigarettes and drink Drambuie as earlier noted)
I keep wondering if the Lord didn't cut his time short because he was weighed in the balance and found wanting.
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Twinky
He cut his own life short, by his choice of lifestyle, JBarrax.
Coming back to the topic: I suppose it doesn't really matter whether his eye was lost due to a fish hook, or whether due to cancer. This is a man who taught that prayer and believing could deal with anything.
So if he is off on a fishing trip with the other trustees (as claimed) - couldn't the trustees have prayed and healed the damage caused by the fish hook? (After rushing him to the hospital to have the barbed part removed, of course).
How do you get a fish hook in your eye anyway, if you wear glasses? (When did he start wearing glasses?)
And then there is prayer for healing...or the casting out (a) devil spirit(s).
Caught in his own words, either way.
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socks
Thanks JB.
That ....cancer is "a" devil spirit is an idea that would seem to be found in the N.T. gospels...... is probably supportable but only in a very general way, IMO. It's something of a theological supposition, more or less. If a person were looking at specific records and taking a very literal approach I don't think we see that in the gospels or other N. T. writings that are in the canon. From that angle I'd end up saying "it's possible".
What that means is what I gave a great deal of thought to - for what that's worth. It really illustrates that if that is indeed the case then we have a view into how the "spiritual" realm works that presents more questions, questions that aren't answered in the A. C. material. IMO, anyway. There's people that probably still believe that, lock/stock and barrel, from the A. C. but if sorted out scripturally or logically we end up with something that is as much a medical concern as it is a "spiritual" one.
Dunno.
Fish hook? I doubt it.
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Jbarrax
Where did the fish hook story come from? We were told that the damage to VP's eyes was caused by Howard Allen not setting the lighting properly when the filmed the first Pfille class back in the 60s. When Wierwille announced that he was having that eye removed, he said that he'd been dealing with constant pain in his eyes since they filmed THE CLASS.
Did they later announce that the one that wasn't burned out and removed was later wounded by a fish hook? If so, what are the odds that a man would have two major --but separate--injuries, one resulting in the removal of an organ the other resulting in death. That's just too much of a stretch for me.
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johniam
I've never heard any story about a fish hook.
Cancer is a physical disease which can be diagnosed by the 5 senses. Someone posted earlier that cancer falls on the dark side, or something. If it were possible, every cell in the body would become a cancer cell. Extremely parasitic. Fits the profile of steal, kill, and destroy.
I'm guessing that the first person who ever had cancer WAS possessed. Those spirits used the person's body as a laboratory. This could still happen, but by now there HAS to be ways cancer can be caused by something that enters the body from without. Air, water, or food perhaps. It doesn't have to originate inside the body. I heard recently that animals in the wild never get cancer, but animals in captivity get it all the time. Hmm.
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Linda Z
I was on staff for three years before VPW's death and one year after. I never heard any story about a fish hook in his eye. I never saw him walking around with a patch over his eye, either, until it was removed and replaced with the glass eye. If he'd gotten a fish hook in his eye, there would have been a patch or a bandage.
On several occasions I heard Mrs. W and others talk about how VPW's eyes had been burned during the filming. I never heard Howard Allen blamed for it though, Jerry.
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Ham
would you cite your sources? I would really be interested to check this out..
human animals in captivity get all kinds of s*it..
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dabobbada
I remember a similiar thread from back in the early 2000's. I felt compelled to add a new medical report that said that every adult human being generates an average of 250,000 new cancer cells a day throughout his life. A normal function of white cells is to take these cancer cells out. This was a fact from some published medical journal. I suppose if someone wants to, it is still findable on the net.
All things considered, I guess we should be thankful cancer is not a lot more prevailent in this ol' world.
The part I found amusing is that the medical facts prove that by 'wayfacts' every human being on the planet is possessed by a quarter million devil spuruts.
No wonder it is so hard to do the right thing.
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waysider
Yes, you are.
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Ham
there are all kinds of guesses..
what about.
what about the agreement you made, to enjoy this existence..
surely you can remember..
ha!
about the only part of the agreement for me.. I would not be able to "attend" Woodstock..
I had the privilege of asking a dear, dear friend..
what the hell are we..
well, that is the big question, isn't it..
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dabobbada
What an enjoyable read. It does my heart good to see so many old friends here and such a concern for the facts. I am fascinated by the implication there might have been a poisoning or a suicide. I was at HQ that week when VP returned and left just before he died. I remember the going to gartmore well and coming back sick business, and the personal sense of dread when I left the area.
For what it is worth, I was in the Air Force from 1966 to 72 and was trained in all things photography as it was known at the time. I learned all things camera from 8"x10' deardorf view to 16mm movie. All things film in black 'n' white to color negative and reversal, and all things printing. I have processed base activities, bomb drop films, radar images, and very strange images out of SR-71 blackbirds.
While in the service, I became active in the base amateur theater guild and there did lighting for for a couple years amongst other things. The lights we had there were generically called kleigs or fresnells and looked like black one gallon paint cans on a swivel stick. From maybe 1910 thru at least the '70s the standard light source was an incandescent light bulb from 125 to 2000 watts in power.
When I walked thru the way auditorium in 1985 I saw the exact same kleigs but cannot guarrantee the light source as halogen lights had changed many things in the late '70s.
From my dimming memories of "the way, living in love" by Elena Whiteside mixed with a couple historical exhibits of the filming of the class around HQ. I remember pictures of the studio set, the cameras and lights and crew which was most or all wafers. There were seven or ten kleigs of the 250 to 500 watt variety. The camera was an ordinary workhorse 16mm movie maker standard from the '50s thru '70s.
The story as I recall was they rented the equipment and studio for two weeks in dayton in 1967 and had to film it in that period. The people who rented them the equipment told them it was not wise to film it in such a short period as it could damage the eyes. VP made the decision to push thru and do it in the two weeks in spite of the warnings.
What needs to be understood is color movie film was very slow in the '60s. At a speed rating of ASA 25 or 50, 1960s color film needed from 100 to 200 times more light than a modern digital camera to get a proper exposure.
Another way to put that would be lighting your 10x15 living room with 25 100 watt bulbs and they are all focused by polished reflectors at you. The heat would be as obnoxious as the brightness.
In our little theater the actors were warned not to look at the lights too long or you could get 'kleig eye' the symptoms are exactly the same as VPs or the welders. the actors were to look above the audience but below the kleigs.
One last tidbit under useless information for you. Each segment of the class was about 20 minutes long. A fact i'm sure many remembered while waiting for a snack break or a much needed stretch. The segments were 20 minutes long because that was the time limitation of the 400 foot film cassettes used in the cameras.
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Twinky
For those on page 6 who haven't bothered to read the beginning of the thread and thus don't really know what's being talked about:
dabobbada, that's interesting stuff you say. Thanks.
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Linda Z
Dabobbada, great to see you here, and thanks for the info!
Twinky, I did read the whole thread, but I didn't go back and reread the posts that are almost 3 years old. I'd forgotten that you had posted about the fish hook explanation.
All I was saying is that I was at HQ for 3 years before VP died and 1 year after, and I never heard about the fish hook story and never saw any evidence of its having happened. It sounds to me like Reynolds made up the story (or was fed the story by LCM, RFR, or someone) to cover up for VPW's cancer. Lord knows there were plenty of people at the top who were capable of and perfectly willing to lie lest twi's reputation suffer in any way.
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dabobbada
Linda,
It is good to see you too. I come by and keep an eye on things around here. I don''t have much energy to reply much though. My medical problems caused me to go on disability back in '04 and I had to move to my very rural home town to be able to live. It was late 2010 when I was able to get back on the net again.
Ohio limb had a function at the state fairgrounds shortly after the operation. There were rumors running rampant about some medical condition but officially little was said. When VP spoke, he looked, sounded and acted weak and distant to me. It left me for the first time realizing his mortality.
Twinky,
Though I don't doubt your source and story, I have not heard of it before.
The well documented and many personal excesses and abuses have been brought up as possible reasons for VPs surgury. Medical and Psychiatric folks would readily tell us that any one excess or abuse puts a great deal of stress on the body and weakens the immune system. The many abuses pursued with such gusto by VP within the inner way mystery religion certainly set him up for a trainwreck worthy of a hollywood blockbuster.
So I nominate all of the above.
From the scriptural viewpoint, even from a casual read, the OT prophets, kings and servants of God who abused God's Kids always ended up in a bad place.
I heard once from a reliable source that some of VP's last words were to the effect of wondering what he had done wrong.
What he had done wrong!!?
WHAT HE HAD DONE WRONG?!!
What he had done wrong was abusing God's Grace by indulging his personal cravings for many things under the banner of God's Grace. Then he abused God's Daughters under God's Grace. Then he taught God's Leaders of the inner way mystery religion circle to abuse as he had abused.... supposing to be under God's Grace.
(Let us sin that grace may abound...
for answer see Romans.)
It is said that it's better to tie a boulder around your neck and jump in the lake than to harm one of God's little ones. The second great commandment is love your neighbor as yourself. The whole purpose of life is to celebrate life with God and your neighbors.
I need to rest. Maybe later...
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excathedra
many thanks and hugs and prayers dabobbada
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johnj
There is a photo of VPW's death certificate, which cites ocular melanoma (cancer) as primary cause of death, on www.abouttheway.org
The site also has a detailed article on the ramifications of VP having cancer, which he always taught is due to a devil spirit. VP apparently not only was unable to believe for his healing, but also caused his own disease by his negative believing- and was also possessed by a devil spirit. A false teacher and false believer.
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