I think the thread has reached the point where any further discussion is bound to get people seriously upset. So bear with me. I don't want to do that.
Did VPW take a "revisionist" point of view concerning the Holocaust? Yes, "The Myth of the 6 Million" was in the bookstore.
Did VPW practice antisemitism? No. Ethnic Jews held high and trusted positions in TWI.
Did VPW support the concept of modern-day Israel and Zionism? No. Not a chance. Didn't fit with his ideas of dispensations and it stole his thunder.
So I don't think it can be boiled down into simple terms. VPW was a master at playing up the things that strengthened TWI and condemning the things that didn't.
"belief in Aryan superiority and Jewish inferiority"
That doesn't contrast VP, it describes him.
He promoted Anti-Semitic literature and had direct ties to Liberty Lobby.
Actions certainly do speak louder than words.
Promoting "so-called anti-Semitic" literature doesn't make someone a Nazi anymore than it makes Arthur Koestler (Jewish author of The Thirteenth Tribe) a Nazi or Dr. Arthur Butz (author of Hoax of the Twentieth Century) a Nazi or Willis Carto (founder of the Liberty Lobby) a Nazi or the Library of Congress of the United States (that contain these publications) a Nazi regime.
I think the thread has reached the point where any further discussion is bound to get people seriously upset. So bear with me. I don't want to do that.
Did VPW take a "revisionist" point of view concerning the Holocaust? Yes, "The Myth of the 6 Million" was in the bookstore.
Did VPW practice antisemitism? No. Ethnic Jews held high and trusted positions in TWI.
Did VPW support the concept of modern-day Israel and Zionism? No. Not a chance. Didn't fit with his ideas of dispensations and it stole his thunder.
So I don't think it can be boiled down into simple terms. VPW was a master at playing up the things that strengthened TWI and condemning the things that didn't.
I think he was a "nazi" in practice. JCING was his own personal version of Mein Kampf, and outlines his "struggle" against mainline christianity..
trinitarians or adherents to the belief that the dead are alive were subject to his form of "antisemitism".. trinitarians were even labelled as deluded or possessed..
he had his own crowds of cheering wierwille youth.. we cheered in public, we even cheered at his taped classes..
he had as Geo said, the brown shirts, and the even more committed, loyal "guard"..
he even had a close circle of firearm toting goons and lackies that wouldn't think twice about offing somebody, or even laying their lives down to protect him from any who dared offend his "greatness"..
I think he at the least emulated Hitler.
I think the vicster took a revisionist point of view regarding early christianity.. claimed to have the truth- like it had not been known since the first century.. the true, hidden meaning of the bible..
I think his old, loyal guard's life ambition is to raise up the "boys from Brazil"..
Was he a *real* Nazi? I don't know.. but there seem to be quite a few observable similarities.
Promoting "so-called anti-Semitic" literature doesn't make someone a Nazi anymore than it makes Arthur Koestler (Jewish author of The Thirteenth Tribe) a Nazi or Dr. Arthur Butz (author of Hoax of the Twentieth Century) a Nazi or Willis Carto (founder of the Liberty Lobby) a Nazi or the Library of Congress of the United States (that contain these publications) a Nazi regime.
I never said it did.
It does, however, demonstrate that he was not "contrary" in his tenets as you would have us to believe.
Waysider, it looked like you said that belief of the Nazi tenet of Aryan superiority and Jewish inferiority described VPW by promoting Anti-Semitic literature:
"belief in Aryan superiority and Jewish inferiority"
That doesn't contrast VP, it describes him.
He promoted Anti-Semitic literature and had direct ties to Liberty Lobby.
Actions certainly do speak louder than words.
I guess the reader can make their own conclusions as to what your writings meant.
Yes, actions do speak louder than words, and there's NOTHING in VPW's actions or actions of Corps volunteers that can be compared with a military dictatorship that hauls people into concentration camps, mames and kills people, and is ultimately responsible for the carnage of millions of people.
...As far as i know, he wasn't a card carrying member of the nazi party...but everything about him...what he believed, his lifestyle, his "apologies for Hitler", his genetic heritage...I think it's a legitimate question.
His total disdain for for anyone who wouldn't "bow down to him"...what do you think?
Was he a nazi?
Geez - the opening post asked about his attitude and manner of being.
I see a LOT of similarities to his approach towards people and that of the Nazi party.
And although he allowed "Jews" to move up through his ranks - remember that in his eyes they were't really Jews anymore - they were sanitized.
Back then I never understood why Myth of the Six Million was required reading to enter the Corps. It didn't exactly fit the bill for a "Christian Leadership training program." (Or did it.... *insert evil laugh here*)
Perhaps through liberty lobby, the storehouse of conservative books and ideology. I'll take a stab as to "why" he promoted these books, i.e., I don't think he really believed that Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews. Also, VPW was a traditional conservative politically, and conservatives, especially fiscal conservaties, do not like big governent spending programs and $ free giveaway programs. From his writings, I believe VPW greatly opposed the fact that the U.S. was sending $billions to Israel each year. To date, it has come to somewhere in the neighboorhood of some $83 billion. I think he believed that the holocaust was being used as propaganda to fuel these endless giveaway programs.
From a spiritual standpoint, he believed that "God's chosen of today" was the church of God, the believers in Jesus Christ; similarly he believed that the ideology that "the Jews are God's chosen people" is false today.
Spiritually speaking, in his mind Jews who do not believe in Christ are no better or worse than any other Gentile, i.e. they are essentially Gentiles. ( I do not necessarily believe this myself, this is what I think he believed. ) I think VPW believed that a large part of so-called Jews today are like Gentiles and are not part of the original tribe of Judah. Even so, there is no evidence whatever that he believed they are racially inferior to anyone else. Unlike the Nazi tenet that Aryans are racially superior and Jews are racially inferior.
You know?? trying to equate wierwilles rabid Nazi proclivities with fiscal conservatism, is as intellectually dishonest as equating the seduction, drugging and raping of teenaged christian followers as a simple error in judgement.
Apples and oranges. The difference between a religious organization and a military dictatorship is night and day.
And yet the similarities are huge. The same seeking for power at the top, and abuses down the chain of command. The military dictatorship accomplishes this with a physical show and use of force. The religious organization does it with mental abuse - fear tactics, mark and avoid, etc.
I sometimes wonder why on earth I ran the bookstore in Cy for a year. Night after night, scurrying around the state , peddling 'Marxist Minstrels', "13th Tribe', that "Myth of the 6 Million' thing, to say nothing of the over priced Bibles( and of course, all the holy vpw works).
It was bad enough going to work on 3 hours of sleep, but it really bothers me that I was a pusher for this stuff.
He wasn't a Nazi. I'll bet 50 cen' right now, on that.
The anti-semitic stuff doesn't stick, based on his close relationships with formerly Jewish members of the Way. It was no secret he didn't think what made someone a "Jew" today wasn't geography, he believed the Jews had scattered and were not united as a nation today. I guess that could be considered "anti-semitic" but not in the sense that he intended people harm or wanted them dead or something.
He was into the right-wing literature and sources, yes. A lot of people are, for the information. Shoot, I read Reader's Digest, used to have a subscription.
The deal with calling Weirwille or referring to him as a "Nazi" has shock value, but not much substance, IMO.
It seems that Wierwille was Nazi-like in several areas, but there are enough dissimilarities to conclude that he wasn't an actual Nazi.
Rascal:
What do you mean by intellectually dishonest?
the wikipedia definition has this:
Intellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position which the advocate knows or believes to be false. Rhetoric is used to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence.[1]If a person is aware of the evidence and agrees with the conclusion it portends, yet advocates a contradictory view, they commit intellectual dishonesty. If the person is unaware of the evidence, their position is ignorance, even if in agreement with the scientific conclusion.
The terms intellectually dishonest and intellectual dishonesty are often used as rhetorical devices in a debate; the label invariably frames an opponent in a negative light.
The phrase is also frequently used by orators when a debate foe or audience reaches a conclusion varying from the speaker's on a given subject. This appears mostly in debates or discussions of speculative, non-scientific issues, such as morality or policy.
To be fair, no one equated "rabid Nazi proclivities" with fiscal conservatism, it was posted that what Wierwille was promoting could better be interpreted as such. It would be intellectually dishonest if a poster wrote that without really believing it.
Wrong, mistaken, ignorant even...but intelectually dishonest? Doubt it
Being a Nazi sympathizer doesn't necessarily make one a member of the Nazi party.
I believe he's more of a sympathizer.
Nazis are not the only ones who are anti-semitics. There were quite a bunch before the rise of Nazism. As another poster said, Czarist Russians and Communists (go figure ... considering that Karl Marx was a Jew) were also anti-semitic.
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Jim
I think the thread has reached the point where any further discussion is bound to get people seriously upset. So bear with me. I don't want to do that.
Did VPW take a "revisionist" point of view concerning the Holocaust? Yes, "The Myth of the 6 Million" was in the bookstore.
Did VPW practice antisemitism? No. Ethnic Jews held high and trusted positions in TWI.
Did VPW support the concept of modern-day Israel and Zionism? No. Not a chance. Didn't fit with his ideas of dispensations and it stole his thunder.
So I don't think it can be boiled down into simple terms. VPW was a master at playing up the things that strengthened TWI and condemning the things that didn't.
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George Aar
Yeah, but then he DID have his own SS, his own Gestapo, his own brownshirts, and even his own "Hitler Youth".
As I've said before, there was a lot more to the German heritage stuff than just Brats after SNS...
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oldiesman
Promoting "so-called anti-Semitic" literature doesn't make someone a Nazi anymore than it makes Arthur Koestler (Jewish author of The Thirteenth Tribe) a Nazi or Dr. Arthur Butz (author of Hoax of the Twentieth Century) a Nazi or Willis Carto (founder of the Liberty Lobby) a Nazi or the Library of Congress of the United States (that contain these publications) a Nazi regime.
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Ham
I think he was a "nazi" in practice. JCING was his own personal version of Mein Kampf, and outlines his "struggle" against mainline christianity..
trinitarians or adherents to the belief that the dead are alive were subject to his form of "antisemitism".. trinitarians were even labelled as deluded or possessed..
he had his own crowds of cheering wierwille youth.. we cheered in public, we even cheered at his taped classes..
he had as Geo said, the brown shirts, and the even more committed, loyal "guard"..
he even had a close circle of firearm toting goons and lackies that wouldn't think twice about offing somebody, or even laying their lives down to protect him from any who dared offend his "greatness"..
I think he at the least emulated Hitler.
I think the vicster took a revisionist point of view regarding early christianity.. claimed to have the truth- like it had not been known since the first century.. the true, hidden meaning of the bible..
I think his old, loyal guard's life ambition is to raise up the "boys from Brazil"..
Was he a *real* Nazi? I don't know.. but there seem to be quite a few observable similarities.
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waysider
I never said it did.
It does, however, demonstrate that he was not "contrary" in his tenets as you would have us to believe.
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oldiesman
Waysider, it looked like you said that belief of the Nazi tenet of Aryan superiority and Jewish inferiority described VPW by promoting Anti-Semitic literature:
I guess the reader can make their own conclusions as to what your writings meant.
Yes, actions do speak louder than words, and there's NOTHING in VPW's actions or actions of Corps volunteers that can be compared with a military dictatorship that hauls people into concentration camps, mames and kills people, and is ultimately responsible for the carnage of millions of people.
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doojable
Geez - the opening post asked about his attitude and manner of being.
I see a LOT of similarities to his approach towards people and that of the Nazi party.
And although he allowed "Jews" to move up through his ranks - remember that in his eyes they were't really Jews anymore - they were sanitized.
Back then I never understood why Myth of the Six Million was required reading to enter the Corps. It didn't exactly fit the bill for a "Christian Leadership training program." (Or did it.... *insert evil laugh here*)
Ever wonder how he even came across that book?
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waysider
It's my understanding he was introduced to the more "radical" materials he promoted via his direct correspondence with extremist groups.
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oldiesman
Perhaps through liberty lobby, the storehouse of conservative books and ideology. I'll take a stab as to "why" he promoted these books, i.e., I don't think he really believed that Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews. Also, VPW was a traditional conservative politically, and conservatives, especially fiscal conservaties, do not like big governent spending programs and $ free giveaway programs. From his writings, I believe VPW greatly opposed the fact that the U.S. was sending $billions to Israel each year. To date, it has come to somewhere in the neighboorhood of some $83 billion. I think he believed that the holocaust was being used as propaganda to fuel these endless giveaway programs.
From a spiritual standpoint, he believed that "God's chosen of today" was the church of God, the believers in Jesus Christ; similarly he believed that the ideology that "the Jews are God's chosen people" is false today.
Spiritually speaking, in his mind Jews who do not believe in Christ are no better or worse than any other Gentile, i.e. they are essentially Gentiles. ( I do not necessarily believe this myself, this is what I think he believed. ) I think VPW believed that a large part of so-called Jews today are like Gentiles and are not part of the original tribe of Judah. Even so, there is no evidence whatever that he believed they are racially inferior to anyone else. Unlike the Nazi tenet that Aryans are racially superior and Jews are racially inferior.
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rascal
You know?? trying to equate wierwilles rabid Nazi proclivities with fiscal conservatism, is as intellectually dishonest as equating the seduction, drugging and raping of teenaged christian followers as a simple error in judgement.
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chockfull
And yet the similarities are huge. The same seeking for power at the top, and abuses down the chain of command. The military dictatorship accomplishes this with a physical show and use of force. The religious organization does it with mental abuse - fear tactics, mark and avoid, etc.
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hiway29
I sometimes wonder why on earth I ran the bookstore in Cy for a year. Night after night, scurrying around the state , peddling 'Marxist Minstrels', "13th Tribe', that "Myth of the 6 Million' thing, to say nothing of the over priced Bibles( and of course, all the holy vpw works).
It was bad enough going to work on 3 hours of sleep, but it really bothers me that I was a pusher for this stuff.
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socks
Nazi like? or a Nazi?
He wasn't a Nazi. I'll bet 50 cen' right now, on that.
The anti-semitic stuff doesn't stick, based on his close relationships with formerly Jewish members of the Way. It was no secret he didn't think what made someone a "Jew" today wasn't geography, he believed the Jews had scattered and were not united as a nation today. I guess that could be considered "anti-semitic" but not in the sense that he intended people harm or wanted them dead or something.
He was into the right-wing literature and sources, yes. A lot of people are, for the information. Shoot, I read Reader's Digest, used to have a subscription.
The deal with calling Weirwille or referring to him as a "Nazi" has shock value, but not much substance, IMO.
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Oakspear
It seems that Wierwille was Nazi-like in several areas, but there are enough dissimilarities to conclude that he wasn't an actual Nazi.
Rascal:
What do you mean by intellectually dishonest?
the wikipedia definition has this:
To be fair, no one equated "rabid Nazi proclivities" with fiscal conservatism, it was posted that what Wierwille was promoting could better be interpreted as such. It would be intellectually dishonest if a poster wrote that without really believing it.
Wrong, mistaken, ignorant even...but intelectually dishonest? Doubt it
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FreeFromCults
Being a Nazi sympathizer doesn't necessarily make one a member of the Nazi party.
I believe he's more of a sympathizer.
Nazis are not the only ones who are anti-semitics. There were quite a bunch before the rise of Nazism. As another poster said, Czarist Russians and Communists (go figure
... considering that Karl Marx was a Jew) were also anti-semitic.
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