The First Christian Church Disciples of Christ encourage women to rise up to whatever position they feel a calling. Our pastor speaks often on the subject and welcomes women to participate at all levels. You might check it out to see if there are any near you. They welcome everyone and really have no doctrine beyond the 2 great commandments Jesus talked about: love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Works for me!
That's because Disciples are a very liberal church. Because I am a woman, I tend to be liberal in this particular area if not in others. :)
The church we helped plant is dying and the young associate pastor wants to start a new, nondenominational fellowship. He and another man are the two elders, so far. He is training a few good men to be elders, one of whom is Mr. Garden, at least for right now.
This young man says that while perhaps some women may qualify to be deacons, there will never ever ever be a woman elder or a woman allowed to teach from the stage. Women, he informed us, can be vicious, terrible gossips, as Paul warns. (the worst I ever heard were men). So he is quite leery of women being in authority at all. Of course, I'm sure we are allowed to cook and clean.
He uses those same verses about women keeping silent, not teaching or usurping authority over men, and so on. These are, he says, universal truths commanded by God to be obeyed.
Mr. Garden does not believe this, so I don't know what he will do when they get to that part in the book (I sneaked a peek at the book, probably going to hell now )
I am thoroughly sick of this; the only thing that keeps me going is my son and DIL going to this church. The pastor has done a lot for him and I am very grateful. And the odd thing is, I don't want to be an elder or a deacon; all I want is a little respect and acknowledgment that I too am a worthwhile and not too stupid human being.
The link to Bethel Ministries that I posted earlier seems to imply that women do not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, only men. Wives have a personal relationship with their husbands, because the husband is the head of the wife and Christ is the head of the man.
I wonder how many perfectly great marriages have been strained because someone ran across this clap-trap. I feel like instead of being partners and best friends, we are, as the women's Bible fellowship was taught, to be master/servant. (Honest we really really were).
I only continue to be quite and patient about this because of my son and his family. However, if it ever gets to a point when he starts to wonder about some of the dogma, I will be happy to jump in and suggest we shop around a little.
WG
You should try showing them Romans 16 - Paul is addressing heads of church fellowships in Rome. Junia was an apostle and phoebe was a deaconess. Your so-called leadership is very wrong on these points. Youre right....some of the worst gossips are really men. Besides grunting...whatever else do you think they are doing when they are bowling, hunting, fishing, throwing darts etc etc
What was worse, when they got to the name of Junia...some MALE translator actually had the hutzpah to give it a male ending in the Greek so that it would agree with his personal doctrine on the WOG. The error has been discovered and it is correctly listed in the Greek NT. I think it was the church father, Jerome who did this lovely booboo.
Bride, thanks for your answers. I had run across the lady apostle too, when I found a Wikipedia on women in the Christian church and I've just glanced at some of it. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century corrected someone else (St. Augustine??) who said that women were just "misbegotten men." Tom A. said this cannot be true, because that would mean God made a mistake when He made women. So, Tom A. decided that women were placed on earth to make babies. Period.
What else do men do when they get together? Well, I think the medical term is "flatus."
There is a ray of hope, in that Mr. Garden has mentioned he disagrees with other things this young pastor states. I will find it very interesting when they get to the part about women. They are meeting in our home next month, and I intend to be gone the entire time, since I'm sure they wouldn't want a lowly and unworthy female human being around to overhear divine secrets. I'm taking the dog, too, since she's a girldog and might gossip about the dogs across the street!!! :blink:
Either that, or I could hole up in the sunroom behind the dining room table where they will undoubtedly meet, with a racy movie and a bottle of wine, emerging only to use the toilet and laugh loudly at whatever they are talking about!
Well, maybe not.....
But there is no way in he11 I am signing the commitment sheet that was passed out at the last meeting, including how much sacrificial tithing I would do and promising "submission to leadership."
Been there. Done that. Got the scars on my heart to prove it.
Bride, thanks for your answers. I had run across the lady apostle too, when I found a Wikipedia on women in the Christian church and I've just glanced at some of it. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century corrected someone else (St. Augustine??) who said that women were just "misbegotten men." Tom A. said this cannot be true, because that would mean God made a mistake when He made women. So, Tom A. decided that women were placed on earth to make babies. Period.
What else do men do when they get together? Well, I think the medical term is "flatus."
There is a ray of hope, in that Mr. Garden has mentioned he disagrees with other things this young pastor states. I will find it very interesting when they get to the part about women. They are meeting in our home next month, and I intend to be gone the entire time, since I'm sure they wouldn't want a lowly and unworthy female human being around to overhear divine secrets. I'm taking the dog, too, since she's a girldog and might gossip about the dogs across the street!!! :blink:
Either that, or I could hole up in the sunroom behind the dining room table where they will undoubtedly meet, with a racy movie and a bottle of wine, emerging only to use the toilet and laugh loudly at whatever they are talking about!
Well, maybe not.....
But there is no way in he11 I am signing the commitment sheet that was passed out at the last meeting, including how much sacrificial tithing I would do and promising "submission to leadership."
Been there. Done that. Got the scars on my heart to prove it.
WG
MIS - BE - GOT - TEN.......God MIS - sed (when He made just one man) and so He BEGod and GOT - TEN(men) and W( r )O - lled them into one and said, "I have just made and "Wo(lled)-men!" Sorry, I couldn't resist! Excerpt from BOJC Theological Dictionary
"flatus." Hmmmm....which end? Is FLATUS for upstairs? Flatulenceis definitely downstairs!
This is when it pays to have very heavy drapes in the parlor....as long as your toes don't stick out. Course the other female may give you away with the sway of the drapes along with her tail.
...I'm taking the dog, too, since she's a girldog and might gossip about the dogs across the street!!!
The bitch!!
But seriously folks... I find it amazing that so many people had this attitude in TWI, even though the "official" teaching was that women could be leaders as well as men. They even ordained women, if you remember. I guess some mindsets are harder to get rid of than others, on the grass roots level.
I think Craggie-poo stated they had enough qualified men and would cease ordination of women at some point in his journey to the promised land.
Yep, the pup might be a gossip. She isn't too crazy about the lab across the street. Don't know what she thinks of the terrier next door. She even says mean things about the occasional stray cat!
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brideofjc
That's because Disciples are a very liberal church. Because I am a woman, I tend to be liberal in this particular area if not in others. :)
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brideofjc
You should try showing them Romans 16 - Paul is addressing heads of church fellowships in Rome. Junia was an apostle and phoebe was a deaconess. Your so-called leadership is very wrong on these points. Youre right....some of the worst gossips are really men. Besides grunting...whatever else do you think they are doing when they are bowling, hunting, fishing, throwing darts etc etc
What was worse, when they got to the name of Junia...some MALE translator actually had the hutzpah to give it a male ending in the Greek so that it would agree with his personal doctrine on the WOG. The error has been discovered and it is correctly listed in the Greek NT. I think it was the church father, Jerome who did this lovely booboo.
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Watered Garden
Bride, thanks for your answers. I had run across the lady apostle too, when I found a Wikipedia on women in the Christian church and I've just glanced at some of it. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century corrected someone else (St. Augustine??) who said that women were just "misbegotten men." Tom A. said this cannot be true, because that would mean God made a mistake when He made women. So, Tom A. decided that women were placed on earth to make babies. Period.
What else do men do when they get together? Well, I think the medical term is "flatus."
There is a ray of hope, in that Mr. Garden has mentioned he disagrees with other things this young pastor states. I will find it very interesting when they get to the part about women. They are meeting in our home next month, and I intend to be gone the entire time, since I'm sure they wouldn't want a lowly and unworthy female human being around to overhear divine secrets. I'm taking the dog, too, since she's a girldog and might gossip about the dogs across the street!!! :blink:
Either that, or I could hole up in the sunroom behind the dining room table where they will undoubtedly meet, with a racy movie and a bottle of wine, emerging only to use the toilet and laugh loudly at whatever they are talking about!
Well, maybe not.....
But there is no way in he11 I am signing the commitment sheet that was passed out at the last meeting, including how much sacrificial tithing I would do and promising "submission to leadership."
Been there. Done that. Got the scars on my heart to prove it.
WG
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brideofjc
MIS - BE - GOT - TEN.......God MIS - sed (when He made just one man) and so He BE God and GOT - TEN (men) and W( r )O - lled them into one and said, "I have just made and "Wo(lled)-men!" Sorry, I couldn't resist! Excerpt from BOJC Theological Dictionary
"flatus." Hmmmm....which end?
Is FLATUS for upstairs? Flatulence is definitely downstairs! 
This is when it pays to have very heavy drapes in the parlor....as long as your toes don't stick out. Course the other female may give you away with the sway of the drapes along with her tail.
Never ever sign anything! Allegiance to God only!
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Mark Clarke
But seriously folks... I find it amazing that so many people had this attitude in TWI, even though the "official" teaching was that women could be leaders as well as men. They even ordained women, if you remember. I guess some mindsets are harder to get rid of than others, on the grass roots level.
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Watered Garden
Mark,
I think Craggie-poo stated they had enough qualified men and would cease ordination of women at some point in his journey to the promised land.
Yep, the pup might be a gossip. She isn't too crazy about the lab across the street. Don't know what she thinks of the terrier next door. She even says mean things about the occasional stray cat!
WG
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