I remember someone said that, but not sure who exactly. And then the blame for his death was laid on OUR doorstep by leadership as if to somehow exonerate the Org from it's flawed teaching on believing that the man they adored so much couldn't live up to himself.
No. It wasn't suicide, it was cancer. Whether there was a devil spirit behind the cancer or not is a moot point. But there is no way one can call cancer *suicide* by any stretch of the imagination --- unless you're an Org like twi with a buncha blind followers, and a *reputation* to protect.
From the front page (for those who haven't seen it) ----- >>>
I think we all know why he died--from the physical ailment.
What I really wanted to discuss, and I'm sure I stated it badly, was why cg went to such lengths to state that vp really died of a "broken heart" because he just couldn't muster up his beeleaving to get healed because of all of the bad way people who wouldn't listen to him (vp) and run the ministry "right" (his way).
I think this was cg's way of communicating the "spiritual reasons why vp died" which went along with what vp taught previously that we die when we stop believing.
The suicide part was a bit tongue in cheek on my part (sorry for being so vague) which is the logical extention of believing cg's spin on vp's death.
I think he didn't have "the will to live" because his lifestyle had caught up to him. But, yes, there was that other thing that wasn't listening to his believing and was giving him no choice...
What I really wanted to discuss, and I'm sure I stated it badly, was why cg went to such lengths to state that vp really died of a "broken heart" because he just couldn't muster up his beeleaving to get healed because of all of the bad way people who wouldn't listen to him (vp) and run the ministry "right" (his way).
This almost seems like a rhetorical question.
Why? Well - he was CG after all.
I'd ask myself some questions in light of the events we now know followed POP:
What did POP accomplish for CG?
Who was at the top of the food chain because of POP?
Did POP "heal" twi or tear it down even further?
What did CG stand to gain from POP?
What did he stand to lose without POP?
Was POP effective for CG's purposes?
Lastly - follow the money. If CG had come out and stated that vp died of cancer - well you know what would have happened. BUT - tell everyone he didn't have the will to fight for life - and you've got a major manipulation tool. Then it became easy to push people out. All he had to do was say they were possessed or not believing or...
It was mass M&A. Later LCM tried it his way - only to see more leave in droves.
I'd ask myself some questions in light of the events we now know followed POP:
What did POP accomplish for CG?
Who was at the top of the food chain because of POP?
Did POP "heal" twi or tear it down even further?
What did CG stand to gain from POP?
What did he stand to lose without POP?
Was POP effective for CG's purposes?
Lastly - follow the money. If CG had come out and stated that vp died of cancer - well you know what would have happened. BUT - tell everyone he didn't have the will to fight for life - and you've got a major manipulation tool. Then it became easy to push people out. All he had to do was say they were possessed or not believing or...
It was mass M&A. Later LCM tried it his way - only to see more leave in droves.
Now where have I heard it said that sometimes the MoG dies prematurely - because he is "standing in the gap" for his people and has to deflect such a lot of evil from reaching the people.
Is something like that touched on in PFAL? Or was it something much later (Adv class?)?
Not suicide; just nonsense.
And about they eye: it was put about that he had suffered so much during the filming of PFAL, what with the bright lights and all. But in fact I was told by someone "trustworthy" that it was a fish hook that he got in his eye when he was off with the BoT on a ministry planning meeting.
The meeting obviously took place in a river where he was washing some sins away or being baptized or something (LOL).
He died of the illness. The "broken heart" stuff just comments to his state of mind and overall emotional state. CG thought VPW could have "believed" himself to health if he wanted to but since his heart was broken with disappointment, he just gave up and died. At the time of his choosing, of course.
Hogwash. VPW had every reason to live and do exactly that, if he'd wanted to and been able to. He'd been sick for several years, with a terribly debillitating disease. By the sound of it, he suffered from deep depression those last few months.
I'm sure he felt bad about the treatment he received, as most of his younger healthier Way BOT's and leaders lost patience for him in his ill state. He'd reached a point where they figured he was out of date and out of the "spiritual loop", and to add insult to injury he couldn't keep up physically. In some ways he might have even been an embarrassement for them.
Cold, hard, mean to be treated like that? Sure. But not uncommon amongst the true Sold Out Wayfers.
His family loved him, but it was in quite a state by then. I don't blame any of them, under those circumstances it's difficult, confusing, hard, demanding and draining.
I don't think VPW acquitted himself very well those last couple years, and given his condition he'd have needed a lot of support. Knowing him, he could have refused the things that might have helped, and encouraged behavior that might have hurt. He could be obstinate and prideful, just like those closest to him. The way he acted, what he did, Geer's actions, unfortunately, very normal reactons to such difficult circumstances.
To me,when vic was sick and sure to die,is when all the ravening wolves in sheeps clothes came out,
big money to be had,Should we feel sorry for him?(vic) sure compassioin should be every christians longsuit,I think thats why we all put up with so much horseshi@ for so long.
Now where have I heard it said that sometimes the MoG dies prematurely - because he is "standing in the gap" for his people and has to deflect such a lot of evil from reaching the people.
Is something like that touched on in PFAL? Or was it something much later (Adv class?)?
Not suicide; just nonsense.
And about they eye: it was put about that he had suffered so much during the filming of PFAL, what with the bright lights and all. But in fact I was told by someone "trustworthy" that it was a fish hook that he got in his eye when he was off with the BoT on a ministry planning meeting.
The meeting obviously took place in a river where he was washing some sins away or being baptized or something (LOL).
I was at a teaching at roa where the claim was made that the lights were so bright in filming pfal, that he burned them. Mrs. Wierwille had to put cold compresses in between shots, but he had only a limited amount of time so persevered.
He then declared dramatically...I gave my EYE for the greatness of God`s word....what are YOU willing to give??
Socks, I was told by long timers at hq the same thing you just shared. These folks said that in addition the bot actively separated VP from everyone else with claims that they needed 100 % of his attention and focus to help them with the ministry stuff.
VP himself didn`t know that people were being kept away.
Harsh? You betcha...but we ARE talking about the guys that HE hand picked, that HE personally trained from teenagers....Let`s face it, compassion, empathy, decency, and good character were not what he prized or fostered when grooming and promoting his leaders. These qualities were not emphasized in his training programs.
Those whom were promoted, were generally the most ruthless in their pursuit of the goals. Emotions were to be firmly held in check, not to be allowed to interfere with the task at hand.
In his leaders, he got just exactly what he trained them to be.
Dude smoked like a chimney, drank like a fish, and didn't have George Burns genetics. What do you expect? All the "broken heart" cr@pola is CG's twisted megalomaniac weird worship mindset and leverage for him to climb into power. VP may have been depressed a little and feeling somewhat useless - it's called "retirement".
I'm very curious here. What kind of lights were used in the filming of that class? I've been around such studio lights (continuous high output) since 1968, including still photo, cine and television and the only place I EVER heard of someone getting their eyes burned so badly, they had to be removed was in TWI.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I just wonder. I knew a man a few years back who, in an emergency situaton, had to use a cutting torch to remove someone from a wrecked vehicle without eye protection. He had laser surgery to clarify his vision and I know that wasn't available to VPW back then, but the only damage was that scar tissue that was removed. I'm sure whoever filmed that class didn't use arc lighting in a studio setup.
One thing I know for sure is that you NEVER position the lights in such a way as to have them directly in the subjects eyes as this would cause your subject to squint and be uncomfortable which would be counter productive. Admittedly, the only time I've ever actually been in front of the lights like that is when taking incident meter readings, but still, they NEVER shine directly into the subjects eyes.
What sort of lights was VPW using then? I've heard that story for years and years and always thought it might be bullshi t (you just never know), but never questioned it until now.
Sounds real, rascal. I don't really know what went on with his illness other than he'd been really struggling with it since the early 80's, at least. No one ever said exactly what he had, or what was wrong. Not being at the Way Nash you only heard what was sent out. Talking to people that were there, it was hard to get a fix on what was going on. LCM was Motormouthing as always, the interminable bore with a mic, doing whatever it was he was doing that month. Business as usual.
Ya know --- I heard that too about the *lights from the original filming of the pfal class*. Honestly don't remember when I first heard it, but if I recollect correct, it was docvic saying it at some *important* function where he was bamboozling the audience.
I believed him about it then, but back then I believed him about a lot of other things too. :(
Ya know --- I heard that too about the *lights from the original filming of the pfal class*. Honestly don't remember when I first heard it, but if I recollect correct, it was docvic saying it at some *important* function where he was bamboozling the audience.
I think LindaZ came up with an authoritative explanation on the "caught my eye" thread.
Look... suicide is not passive. It's a conscious act.
Wierwille, regardless of his goofy way of explaining life, the world and God, died as a direct result of cancer.
Anyone who has had someone close to them die as a result of sickness or injury that sapped all strength from them can grasp this... and can easily understand the ideas of someone losing the will to live and/or ceasing to take in physical nourishment.
Are we trying to make a point about his religion or does anyone actually believe wierwille committed suicide?
Rocky, I'm going to have to visit the political forum more to destroy my idealistic view of you. Everything I have seen you post outside of that forum lately has been making sense!
You don't suppose I would find out the same thing in that other forum, do you?
I think we all know why he died--from the physical ailment.
What I really wanted to discuss, and I'm sure I stated it badly, was why cg went to such lengths to state that vp really died of a "broken heart" because he just couldn't muster up his beeleaving to get healed because of all of the bad way people who wouldn't listen to him (vp) and run the ministry "right" (his way).
I think this was cg's way of communicating the "spiritual reasons why vp died" which went along with what vp taught previously that we die when we stop believing.
The suicide part was a bit tongue in cheek on my part (sorry for being so vague) which is the logical extention of believing cg's spin on vp's death.
I think he didn't have "the will to live" because his lifestyle had caught up to him. But, yes, there was that other thing that wasn't listening to his believing and was giving him no choice...
Didn't make my point very well did I LiftedUP? I'll try to write better next time :-)
Didn't make my point very well did I LiftedUP? I'll try to write better next time :-)
OK, I guess your sarcasm is justified. I didn't se your "clearing up" post since I was going through the thread from the top, and didn't check the rest of the thread (as I should have) before replying. Though i still think Rocky made a good post (before your "clearing up"), I certainly didn't have to add to it after your reply.
You know VPW lived a rough life, not a clean or a healthy one, he drank, he smoked, he made time with strange women which means he didn't get enough sleep. All those are factors for his ill health.
I enjoy watching great speakers on a web site called www.ted.com and there they have a minister who was a contemporary of VPW, Billy Graham. Now I'm not really interested in Mr. Graham's theology but I wanted to see what a man who devoted his life to a God he loves had to say to a group of enlightened people at the TED conference. Something surprised me about Billy, he was 79 when hey gave the talk in 1998 and as lucid and animated as VPW in his early 60's.
You could tell Billy just lived a clean life, whether you want to attribute this to his faith or just the discipline to be healthy it showed.
I doubt if VPW even had such a will to live if his lifestyle would have allowed him to live much past 70 anyway, certainly not in any quality of life, and for damn sure not like Billy Graham.
From the thread "You Really Caught My Eye" here is a link to a British article about the connection between overexposure to UV light and ocular melanoma:
From the thread "You Really Caught My Eye" here is a link to a British article about the connection between overexposure to UV light and ocular melanoma:
As I recall, his eyes were red and squinty at the end of PFAL class. But you're right there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other, and anyone who is still alive and was part of the class may not have known, either.
The one doctor I knew who could possibly answer the question is in California. Maybe some day I'll run across him. He actually wrote books on the treatment of ocular melanoma.
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Avondale
VP himself taught that cancer was a devil spirit
Why couldn't GC et al cast it out?
I guess that would be because VP didn't
believe" not because CG didn't have the "power"...hey, where's God in all this?
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waterbuffalo
cg said he died of a "broken heart."
anyone else remember that?
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dmiller
I remember someone said that, but not sure who exactly. And then the blame for his death was laid on OUR doorstep by leadership as if to somehow exonerate the Org from it's flawed teaching on believing that the man they adored so much couldn't live up to himself.
No. It wasn't suicide, it was cancer. Whether there was a devil spirit behind the cancer or not is a moot point. But there is no way one can call cancer *suicide* by any stretch of the imagination --- unless you're an Org like twi with a buncha blind followers, and a *reputation* to protect.
From the front page (for those who haven't seen it) ----- >>>
Suicide?? Horse Hockey!!
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waterbuffalo
I think we all know why he died--from the physical ailment.
What I really wanted to discuss, and I'm sure I stated it badly, was why cg went to such lengths to state that vp really died of a "broken heart" because he just couldn't muster up his beeleaving to get healed because of all of the bad way people who wouldn't listen to him (vp) and run the ministry "right" (his way).
I think this was cg's way of communicating the "spiritual reasons why vp died" which went along with what vp taught previously that we die when we stop believing.
The suicide part was a bit tongue in cheek on my part (sorry for being so vague) which is the logical extention of believing cg's spin on vp's death.
I think he didn't have "the will to live" because his lifestyle had caught up to him. But, yes, there was that other thing that wasn't listening to his believing and was giving him no choice...
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doojable
This almost seems like a rhetorical question.
Why? Well - he was CG after all.
I'd ask myself some questions in light of the events we now know followed POP:
What did POP accomplish for CG?
Who was at the top of the food chain because of POP?
Did POP "heal" twi or tear it down even further?
What did CG stand to gain from POP?
What did he stand to lose without POP?
Was POP effective for CG's purposes?
Lastly - follow the money. If CG had come out and stated that vp died of cancer - well you know what would have happened. BUT - tell everyone he didn't have the will to fight for life - and you've got a major manipulation tool. Then it became easy to push people out. All he had to do was say they were possessed or not believing or...
It was mass M&A. Later LCM tried it his way - only to see more leave in droves.
Why did the bus driver cross the pond?
Twasn't just to get to the other side.
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waterbuffalo
Bingo! Thanks, Dooj.
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Twinky
Now where have I heard it said that sometimes the MoG dies prematurely - because he is "standing in the gap" for his people and has to deflect such a lot of evil from reaching the people.
Is something like that touched on in PFAL? Or was it something much later (Adv class?)?
Not suicide; just nonsense.
And about they eye: it was put about that he had suffered so much during the filming of PFAL, what with the bright lights and all. But in fact I was told by someone "trustworthy" that it was a fish hook that he got in his eye when he was off with the BoT on a ministry planning meeting.
The meeting obviously took place in a river where he was washing some sins away or being baptized or something (LOL).
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socks
He died of the illness. The "broken heart" stuff just comments to his state of mind and overall emotional state. CG thought VPW could have "believed" himself to health if he wanted to but since his heart was broken with disappointment, he just gave up and died. At the time of his choosing, of course.
Hogwash. VPW had every reason to live and do exactly that, if he'd wanted to and been able to. He'd been sick for several years, with a terribly debillitating disease. By the sound of it, he suffered from deep depression those last few months.
I'm sure he felt bad about the treatment he received, as most of his younger healthier Way BOT's and leaders lost patience for him in his ill state. He'd reached a point where they figured he was out of date and out of the "spiritual loop", and to add insult to injury he couldn't keep up physically. In some ways he might have even been an embarrassement for them.
Cold, hard, mean to be treated like that? Sure. But not uncommon amongst the true Sold Out Wayfers.
His family loved him, but it was in quite a state by then. I don't blame any of them, under those circumstances it's difficult, confusing, hard, demanding and draining.
I don't think VPW acquitted himself very well those last couple years, and given his condition he'd have needed a lot of support. Knowing him, he could have refused the things that might have helped, and encouraged behavior that might have hurt. He could be obstinate and prideful, just like those closest to him. The way he acted, what he did, Geer's actions, unfortunately, very normal reactons to such difficult circumstances.
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frank123lol
To me,when vic was sick and sure to die,is when all the ravening wolves in sheeps clothes came out,
big money to be had,Should we feel sorry for him?(vic) sure compassioin should be every christians longsuit,I think thats why we all put up with so much horseshi@ for so long.
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excathedra
i'm glad in the sense that i got out after he kicked and psychogeer tried to twist my mind even more
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waterbuffalo
Twinky, are you serious????
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rascal
I was at a teaching at roa where the claim was made that the lights were so bright in filming pfal, that he burned them. Mrs. Wierwille had to put cold compresses in between shots, but he had only a limited amount of time so persevered.
He then declared dramatically...I gave my EYE for the greatness of God`s word....what are YOU willing to give??
Baaaah
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rascal
Socks, I was told by long timers at hq the same thing you just shared. These folks said that in addition the bot actively separated VP from everyone else with claims that they needed 100 % of his attention and focus to help them with the ministry stuff.
VP himself didn`t know that people were being kept away.
Harsh? You betcha...but we ARE talking about the guys that HE hand picked, that HE personally trained from teenagers....Let`s face it, compassion, empathy, decency, and good character were not what he prized or fostered when grooming and promoting his leaders. These qualities were not emphasized in his training programs.
Those whom were promoted, were generally the most ruthless in their pursuit of the goals. Emotions were to be firmly held in check, not to be allowed to interfere with the task at hand.
In his leaders, he got just exactly what he trained them to be.
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chockfull
Dude smoked like a chimney, drank like a fish, and didn't have George Burns genetics. What do you expect? All the "broken heart" cr@pola is CG's twisted megalomaniac weird worship mindset and leverage for him to climb into power. VP may have been depressed a little and feeling somewhat useless - it's called "retirement".
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Ron G.
I'm very curious here. What kind of lights were used in the filming of that class? I've been around such studio lights (continuous high output) since 1968, including still photo, cine and television and the only place I EVER heard of someone getting their eyes burned so badly, they had to be removed was in TWI.
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I just wonder. I knew a man a few years back who, in an emergency situaton, had to use a cutting torch to remove someone from a wrecked vehicle without eye protection. He had laser surgery to clarify his vision and I know that wasn't available to VPW back then, but the only damage was that scar tissue that was removed. I'm sure whoever filmed that class didn't use arc lighting in a studio setup.
One thing I know for sure is that you NEVER position the lights in such a way as to have them directly in the subjects eyes as this would cause your subject to squint and be uncomfortable which would be counter productive. Admittedly, the only time I've ever actually been in front of the lights like that is when taking incident meter readings, but still, they NEVER shine directly into the subjects eyes.
What sort of lights was VPW using then? I've heard that story for years and years and always thought it might be bullshi t (you just never know), but never questioned it until now.
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socks
Sounds real, rascal. I don't really know what went on with his illness other than he'd been really struggling with it since the early 80's, at least. No one ever said exactly what he had, or what was wrong. Not being at the Way Nash you only heard what was sent out. Talking to people that were there, it was hard to get a fix on what was going on. LCM was Motormouthing as always, the interminable bore with a mic, doing whatever it was he was doing that month. Business as usual.
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dmiller
Ya know --- I heard that too about the *lights from the original filming of the pfal class*. Honestly don't remember when I first heard it, but if I recollect correct, it was docvic saying it at some *important* function where he was bamboozling the audience.
I believed him about it then, but back then I believed him about a lot of other things too. :(
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Lifted Up
I think LindaZ came up with an authoritative explanation on the "caught my eye" thread.
Rocky, I'm going to have to visit the political forum more to destroy my idealistic view of you. Everything I have seen you post outside of that forum lately has been making sense!
You don't suppose I would find out the same thing in that other forum, do you?
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waterbuffalo
Didn't make my point very well did I LiftedUP? I'll try to write better next time :-)
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Lifted Up
OK, I guess your sarcasm is justified. I didn't se your "clearing up" post since I was going through the thread from the top, and didn't check the rest of the thread (as I should have) before replying. Though i still think Rocky made a good post (before your "clearing up"), I certainly didn't have to add to it after your reply.
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Seth R.
You know VPW lived a rough life, not a clean or a healthy one, he drank, he smoked, he made time with strange women which means he didn't get enough sleep. All those are factors for his ill health.
I enjoy watching great speakers on a web site called www.ted.com and there they have a minister who was a contemporary of VPW, Billy Graham. Now I'm not really interested in Mr. Graham's theology but I wanted to see what a man who devoted his life to a God he loves had to say to a group of enlightened people at the TED conference. Something surprised me about Billy, he was 79 when hey gave the talk in 1998 and as lucid and animated as VPW in his early 60's.
You could tell Billy just lived a clean life, whether you want to attribute this to his faith or just the discipline to be healthy it showed.
I doubt if VPW even had such a will to live if his lifestyle would have allowed him to live much past 70 anyway, certainly not in any quality of life, and for damn sure not like Billy Graham.
I'll include the video for those interested.
Seth
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Watered Garden
From the thread "You Really Caught My Eye" here is a link to a British article about the connection between overexposure to UV light and ocular melanoma:
http://www.cancerbackup.org.uk/Cancertype/...elanomaoftheeye
WG
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WordWolf
A) According to that linked article, IF there's a connection between OCULAR melanoma and UV light,
it has NOT been established.
"It is known that exposure to ultraviolet (UV) rays (either from the sun or sunbeds) increases the risk of developing melanoma of the skin.
People whose skin burns easily are most at risk: typically, people with fair skin, fair or red hair and blue eyes.
However, it is not yet known whether or not there is any link between UV ray exposure and the development of melanoma of the eye."
B) All connections between UV light and the filming of the pfal class exist solely as speculations by posters on the GSC.
I still want to know-if, supposedly, the lights in pfal just happened to be UV lights-
why his eyes took all sorts of damage, but standing under what's been speculated to be UV FLOOD LIGHTS
never tanned nor sunburned his face across the class.
IF they were UV lights-and we STILL have only SPECULATION they were- they shouldn't just have singled out his eyes and
skipped the rest of his face.
I don't want to be a pain about this, but I think this keeps getting forgotten, and some posters keep thinking
this was some sort of PROVEN POINT. (So far, no definitive proof for a specific cause has been found.)
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Watered Garden
As I recall, his eyes were red and squinty at the end of PFAL class. But you're right there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other, and anyone who is still alive and was part of the class may not have known, either.
The one doctor I knew who could possibly answer the question is in California. Maybe some day I'll run across him. He actually wrote books on the treatment of ocular melanoma.
WG
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