Are Unitarians Christians Really Muslim?

[anotherDan]

THE prophet of the Jews was Moses.

THE prophet (yea, and more than a prophet) of Christians is Jesus.

THE prophet of Muslims was Mohammad.

I'm with Jesus. I'm convinced. Others are convinced by their own prophet or philosopher, or they go their own way, and have their own beliefs. I believe the truth is that God is in fact One. So do Muslims and Jews. Many make much ado that their God is not the Muslims "god," Allah. But as I got to know my Muslim neighbors, I think that they were as surprised (and delighted) as I was when we connected on fundamental truths. They recognized the presence of God in our home. They saw the love and devotion we had to God, and they felt the same love and devotion to God, the One God. The God of Abraham, and of Jesus and of Mohammad. I never pushed Christianity on them, but never backed up on my faith in Jesus. One of them presented me with a Quran (in English translation, with commentary) and I read it from cover to cover.

Mohammad felt called to speak against polytheism. He believed that there was One God. "Allah" is the word for God in Arabic. It's not a name (according to Islam, He has many names, such as the Magnificent, the Merciful, etc.). I ate at their home, (take from the plate with the right hand only!) and they ate at mine, after which I played guitar for them and sang them a song I wrote called Saved by Grace. One of them asked me afterward what we Christians mean by being "born again." (A line in the song uses those words.) And I explained to them what I thought it means. They didn't convert, and neither did I, and I'm fine with that. Now that I've moved away, I miss them. I would have liked to see how our relationship would have played out over the long run.

Their fasting, prayers, and almsgiving are remarkably similar to biblical practices, and like waysider said, it is a way of life (and yes, Abi, Christianity should be, too. It is for some!)

The point by one poster is well taken: "Christians" have been terrorists in a big way, and some are still, today. But I don't blame Jesus for that, I blame the terrorists.

[geisha779]

THE prophet of the Jews was Moses.

THE prophet (yea, and more than a prophet) of Christians is Jesus.

THE prophet of Muslims was Mohammad.

I'm with Jesus. I'm convinced. Others are convinced by their own prophet or philosopher, or they go their own way, and have their own beliefs. I believe the truth is that God is in fact One. So do Muslims and Jews. Many make much ado that their God is not the Muslims "god," Allah. But as I got to know my Muslim neighbors, I think that they were as surprised (and delighted) as I was when we connected on fundamental truths. They recognized the presence of God in our home. They saw the love and devotion we had to God, and they felt the same love and devotion to God, the One God. The God of Abraham, and of Jesus and of Mohammad. I never pushed Christianity on them, but never backed up on my faith in Jesus. One of them presented me with a Quran (in English translation, with commentary) and I read it from cover to cover.

Mohammad felt called to speak against polytheism. He believed that there was One God. "Allah" is the word for God in Arabic. It's not a name (according to Islam, He has many names, such as the Magnificent, the Merciful, etc.). I ate at their home, (take from the plate with the right hand only!) and they ate at mine, after which I played guitar for them and sang them a song I wrote called Saved by Grace. One of them asked me afterward what we Christians mean by being "born again." (A line in the song uses those words.) And I explained to them what I thought it means. They didn't convert, and neither did I, and I'm fine with that. Now that I've moved away, I miss them. I would have liked to see how our relationship would have played out over the long run.

Their fasting, prayers, and almsgiving are remarkably similar to biblical practices, and like waysider said, it is a way of life (and yes, Abi, Christianity should be, too. It is for some!)

The point by one poster is well taken: "Christians" have been terrorists in a big way, and some are still, today. But I don't blame Jesus for that, I blame the terrorists.

WOW==I love this post. Muslims--or many will tell you that it is the same God. It all stems from the same faith Judaism--hence many of the big battles. I too have gotten to know muslims and had very similar experiences. I have Christian friends who will pray with Muslims--I am not there though.

It wasn't always war between Muslim and Jew--not always conversion by the sword either--that is why the people of the book thing was so important. Many times Muslims would take over places and the people were glad because they restored order and allowed "People of the book" to retain their faith and fully participate in society. People prospered and were protected.

Different sects are the issue--even today.

Thanks Dan!!

[anotherDan]

Rhino, I think maybe Superman. The idea of "my god is bigger than your god" (shades of Elijah and the 450 prophets of Baal) has had some seriously ungodly results throughout history. Is He not only the God of the Jews? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles too!

I want to apologize for the "name calling." I should play nicer with others. I got a PM from a concerned fellow-citizen. Apparently, however, it's OK to call Joel Osteen a "scumbag" and VP Wierwille a "rapist," for various reasons. But we mustn't namecall a fellow greasespotter, like calling them a "liar." I don't mean to dilute my apology. I really could have made my point in a more civil manner, and I should have. I regularly enjoy what you bring to the table, Bill.

bigot (Dictionary.com)

a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

Wikipedia:

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding state of mind. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.

Edited August 10, 2008 by anotherDan

[rhino]

Well because Christians believe their way is the only way, none other will they abide.

Not all Christians think that way Bill. As you may know.

I am what some would call a Christian, but I don't use the word of myself or throw it around about myself because of the current state of western Christianity as depicted in the statement I quoted from you. Which is unfortunately true in many, too many cases.

True cman, but that is what the song says.

Though for the basic Bible Christian, Jesus as savior at the right hand of God, does seem to put Christians at the head of the class.

Geisha said

It wasn't always war between Muslim and Jew--not always conversion by the sword either--that is why the people of the book thing was so important. Many times Muslims would take over places and thepeople were glad because they restored order and allowed "People of the book" to retain their faith and fully participate in society. People prospered and were protected.

My understanding is under Islamic rule, Christians were allowed but were subject to special rules and taxes. I forget the terms (dhimmitude is one), but they were under submission, not equals. People were probably only "glad" in cases where there was great unrest.

This came up in the politics forum before, but in the history as I recall, the crusades happened after Islam was moving through the "Bible lands", and this was the European defensive response to stop them before they took Europe. Of course on the crusades, the armies took some time to rape and pillage other places I think ... but hey, boys will be boys.

[Abigail]

I want to apologize for the "name calling." I should play nicer with others. I got a PM from a concerned fellow-citizen. Apparently, however, it's OK to call Joel Osteen a "scumbag" and VP Wierwille a "rapist," for various reasons. But we mustn't namecall a fellow greasespotter, like calling them a "liar." I don't mean to dilute my apology. I really could have made my point in a more civil manner, and I should have. I regularly enjoy what you bring to the table, Bill.

This difference, Dan, is "public figures" verses "private figures." Public figures such as VPW and Joel Olsteen assume the risk of negative public opinion when they take on the roles they do. They proclaim themsleves men of God, apt to teach, and make (or made) a lot of money doing it. It is their employment and the people who follow or followed them are, in a sense, their employers - the ones who pay their salary. Thus, we have a right to critique.

The people who post here are not public figures, we are private people who come here to express opinions and debate ideas. The rules of the forum state we should not make our debates personal - attacking another poster's character is personal. Perhaps your opinion regarding bigotry is correct, I've certainly held such opinions towards other posters. In the end though, if your goal is to persuade you will have far better success using logic and reason than using words that will insult someone and thus cause their defenses to go up.

But I don't think there is a poster here who hasn't at least occassionally gotten personal with another poster in a debate, myself included.

[Oakspear]

Rhino:

I believe you are correct and "dhimmi" is the term used for people in Islamic lands who ar allowed to keep their own religion and a measure of self rule. "Dhimmitude" is the English version of ahl al-dhimma, the condition of being a dhimmi. As a dhimmi, there was no "full participation" in society; they were very much second-class citizens.

[geisha779]

True cman, but that is what the song says.

Though for the basic Bible Christian, Jesus as savior at the right hand of God, does seem to put Christians at the head of the class.

Geisha said

My understanding is under Islamic rule, Christians were allowed but were subject to special rules and taxes. I forget the terms (dhimmitude is one), but they were under submission, not equals. People were probably only "glad" in cases where there was great unrest.

This came up in the politics forum before, but in the history as I recall, the crusades happened after Islam was moving through the "Bible lands", and this was the European defensive response to stop them before they took Europe. Of course on the crusades, the armies took some time to rape and pillage other places I think ... but hey, boys will be boys.

You may be right Bill, it is ringing some bells in the back of my brain--truth be told--I am too lazy to look into it. I pulled that little bit from 2 years of Middle Eastern History as an undergrad---ages ago. Money well spent huh? Now if we want to discuss 19th century British History-I may be able to summon a bit more--but maybe not.

I was thinking more of the Jewish people. They were allowed to keep their faith and did prosper under some Islamic rule--they were "people of the book", but taxes and rules DOES ring a bell.

As Jews were driven out of most places--many were glad to have a place to land for a bit. there was great unrest and lawlessness as well. Sulyman riding through the gates on a big white horse comes to mind--elusive but there. LOL :) Ooooops sorry about the smiley face.

Edited August 10, 2008 by geisha779

[rhino]

Thanks Dan .. I'm pretty thick skinned, but I felt the term was inaccurate for me, and it is one of the more flame like terms that I try to avoid. I don't think i called anyone a liar, but yes, I was called that with no reason, and with my evidence removed. ha It does change the tone when the more provocative terms are used.

Here is my definition

big·ot (bgt)

n.

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I don't exactly put myself in the Christian camp, so it was not me being partial to my own group. And I do understand the majority of Islam is not radical Islam. But to me, it seemed apparent that suggesting the possiblity that jcing Christians were more muslim, following Juedes slam on ALL those in TWI not thinking for themselves ... was not a positive approach. (smiley faces notwithstanding )

And regarding my more negative view of Islam, maybe my last post gave a more historical reason for my opinion. American Muslims today are almost certainly more Americanized, which is another large aspect of what people are .. not just their religion. And there are plenty of Iranian Muslims that would prefer a more westernized nation. Poverty is also an important aspect ...

But there is certainly a more jihad like side of Islam, and a large part of Islam that is at least more tolerant of the jihad side. The Iraq war was not really a crusade by Christians to convert people by the sword ... it was about oil (and wmd's), and we have subjected no one to Christianity nor US rule.

I haven't seen the pope calling for people to rise up and take back the holy lands, while we as westerners have a military advantage. Robertson I think called for killing Chavez, but not converting him ... that is as close as it gets.

Christians in the US tend to vote as a block, but that may have worked against my interests as Huckabee messed things up, and Republicans ended up with McCain instead of a conservative. Since I'm not part of that Christian block, bigot did not really seem to fit.

But I do tend to stick to my opinions ... but only because I am so darn right all the time I agree with Oakspear a lot, especially when he agrees with me

[anotherDan]

Rhino, you did handle it pretty well, though you did pass the bigot baton to DrJ :P According to Ab, that might be OK, since he's a bit more of a "public figure." Anyway, thanks for being thick-skinned. "Rhinos are like that." "Yeah, they are."

Bigot is a pejorative term. The term "cult" has become so, though that was not its earlier meaning. Sc*mbag? hmmm

Abi, I suppose that's part of The Rules. I'll try keep a lid on the name calling -- even those who are dead or public or not a part of our little community. I appreciate your taking the trouble to educate me.

Edited August 10, 2008 by anotherDan