I'm not sure Jesus was really Jewish either. Certainly he was raised that way, but I was raised Catholic as well. I don't know that it defines one how they were raised. While he did honor many traditions, he also spoke out on many as well. I see him as more transitional. Certainly the Jewish leaders of the time did not see him as a follower, and I think they were right he wasn't. He brought a message of change to the Jewish people one that many did not embrace.
WhiteDove, if you study the Midrash you will find that what Jesus was teaching HAD been taught before, it just wasn't being practiced much in his day and time. There were differing sects within Judaism, just as there are today, just as there are among Christians.
Jesus didn't really teach a message of change, he taught a message of return.
Rhino, Jesus was not a Christian, either, he was Jewish. His followers became Christians - called themselves Christian and many of them did rule and convert by the sword, also.
The head of the Christian church is Jesus Christ ... he did not teach rule by the sword, nor do we see any of that in those early followers (that must have come from those trinitarians )
The head of Islam is Muhammad ... he did convert by the sword, and their teachings indicate submission by force is approved. I have not heard of any recent "honor killings" by practicing Christians, nor stonings of adulterous women. (though some in TWI treated them harshly)
The contrast is pretty clear as I see it ... no need to try to amalgamize the two religions for diversity's sake... or whatever. Calling someone muslim for not believing the Trinity would seem a rather harsh and unfair judgment.
The Trinity issue does not define a cult, except to the Trinitarians perhaps. Trying to make that legitimate doctrinal issue central to the cult definition seems to miss the mark, and is an unfair "attack" on all that hold that belief.
But even if JCING is true, it may well be that VP chose the issue more because it put him in contrast to the major denominations, which he always seemed to prefer. It distinguished his product. (It is this aspect of the JCING issue that makes it "on topic" ... it is also a distinguishing part of Lynn's "package". The actual doctrine of JCING is straying a little)
WhiteDove, if you study the Midrash you will find that what Jesus was teaching HAD been taught before, it just wasn't being practiced much in his day and time. There were differing sects within Judaism, just as there are today, just as there are among Christians.
Jesus didn't really teach a message of change, he taught a message of return.
Agreed what I meant was it was a change for them, to return to teaching personally . In that sense it was a mesage of change, at least in practice. But it was not at least for the most part new in content, as you said. I'd have to look at some of his teachings before I could say all though.
geisha and rhino - perhaps this discussion doesn't belong here in this thread.
Geisha - I may have missed something but I didn't see you being called a liar.
I also don't understand this "little girl" stuff.
Maybe Twinky is right and a new thread should be started. But how many threads in how many forums do we need about the Trinity?
"My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position."
Sounds like he believed this and thought I knew it. It is an accusation of dishonesty.
I don't know--how many threads do we need? You tell me.
The "Little girl" comment was to emphasize I am no threat --meaning one little (girl, female, woman, weaker vessel-whatever you want to call us)voice is not going to effect a change on ones beliefs unless they are unsure of them to begin with.
Hope that clears it up for you.
JAL can think what ever he wishes, as can Rhino but, I feel Dr. Juedes response to the letter was very good. I liked Pawtuckets response as well, as I have thought the same thing. Instead of telling God who He is, as a real live God He should be able to reveal Himself to us--if we humbly ask Him--He may show a bit more than we have learned before--or not.
Seems to me in TWI we were all about this topic--we knew the truth--may have missed something while we were running around telling everyone who Jesus is not.
Oh yeah--we did--or at least I did. The whole Jesus thing just passed me right on by. He was my big BRO--well now He MUCH different to me now.
Pastor Juedes represents a position held by a large majority of Christians on this issue. That does not mean he doesn't care for those who think otherwise--I think his commitment to we ex-twiers and the ones still trapped within is reflected in his time and effort.
As for the Muslim forum--well, I said it was off topic and I just posted it in case anyone was interested. I didn't expect a fire fight. ALL three major religions share something. They are all from the same source so to speak. A look at what makes them differ is interesting to me. Christianity sprung from Judaism--Islam is an extension of Christianity--false or not--that is what it is.
The similarities between unitarians and Muslims are different than that of trinitarians--a distinct line is drawn with them
As their arguments are so similar to what we said in TWI--I thought some might be interested in looking at it. Knowing Muslims and having discussed their faith with them, it did not seem such an odd thing.
I threw us off topic--my mistake--I didn't expect that kind of response.
"My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position."
Sounds like he believed this and thought I knew it. It is an accusation of dishonesty.
It doesn't sound like that to me ... I never accused you of anything. I did not imply you were a liar ... and only now did I have any idea what you were referring to.
Having been around many boards, I have seen others present arguments in this way. It made no sense to me that an actual Muslim would consider a non trinitarian Christian to be muslim. I said "whacko" because there are some nutty folks that go to extremes to push/promote their position, including putting quotes on Muslim forums to be quoted elsewhere.
It sounded more like a sneak attack by a trinitarian posing as a muslim, trying to belittle the non trinitarian position.
I hadn't even considered that you may have known that, since I was just surmising at how peculiar it would be for a Muslim to think like that ... but it did seem odd for you to quote from a Muslim forum to support your trinitarian view.
The head of the Christian church is Jesus Christ ... he did not teach rule by the sword, nor do we see any of that in those early followers (that must have come from those trinitarians )
The head of Islam is Muhammad ... he did convert by the sword, and their teachings indicate submission by force is approved. I have not heard of any recent "honor killings" by practicing Christians, nor stonings of adulterous women. (though some in TWI treated them harshly)
Okay, I've never studied Muhammad or Islam overly much, so for the sake of argument I will accept your premise as true. That still does not mean all of today's Moslem's are terrorists, nor does it mean that was the intent of Geisha's post. Moslems today are as diverse as Jews and Christians - there are many factions/sects with a variety of beliefs and interpretations.
Those of us who do not believe in the trinty tend to see the worship of the trinity as polytheistic, but it would appear that those who worship the trinity do NOT see it as polytheistic. It might be interesting to learn why that is - why they consider themselves monotheistic, no?
You are correct, WD - I by no means know or understand ALL of Jesus' teachings, nor have I studied anything close to ALL of the Midrash (that would take at least a lifetime). I do see many, many similarities however.
Indeed, I sometimes think that if a new religion had not been born out of the teachings of Jesus, (a new "label" assigned to a group of people) that his teachings would have become a part of the Midrash or a part of the books of the prophets. Maybe not . . .
Good call, mods/paw, splitting this off, as Twink suggested
Rhino, you're a religious bigot, but it's not your fault. You simply haven't met the "right" muslims. I repeat, their "Prophet" was wrong about some things. He rewrote the Bible to favor the Arabs (Hagar's children) and he did not accept Jesus' death or oneness with the Father -- that's big stuff. But he called people back to the oneness of God, and that's the point here -- monotheism, and that's why I say I've met muslims who worship the same God as I do. The God of Abraham, and the God of the Gentiles, the One God.
Okay, I've never studied Muhammad or Islam overly much, so for the sake of argument I will accept your premise as true. That still does not mean all of today's Moslem's are terrorists, nor does it mean that was the intent of Geisha's post. Moslems today are as diverse as Jews and Christians - there are many factions/sects with a variety of beliefs and interpretations.
Those of us who do not believe in the trinty tend to see the worship of the trinity as polytheistic, but it would appear that those who worship the trinity do NOT see it as polytheistic. It might be interesting to learn why that is - why they consider themselves monotheistic, no?
The intent of Juedes seemed clear ... to him the concept of JCING was accepted because we could not think and only accepted VP as MOG. Geisha has been rather clear on her opinion of correct Christian doctrine. Introducing the suggestion those one god Christians are more like Muslims seemed another slight, more than adding to a reasonable dialogue.
I'm not interested in debating the trinity really, only in looking at how some Trinitarians appear to be close minded on the issue, as Juedes portrayed in his "attack" on those that hold to JCING. So some showed good reason to consider the jcing position, even without vp's book.
But the point about those old writings is interesting. Maybe there is book of Jesus somewhere ...Matthew Mark Luke Jesus John ... of course Christians don't believe it is just a label assigned to a group ... he is the savior for all mankind.
Or was he just a guy that got good press and he never saw snow on the gas pumps either? What do we really know from those writings?
It doesn't sound like that to me ... I never accused you of anything. I did not imply you were a liar ... and only now did I have any idea what you were referring to.
Having been around many boards, I have seen others present arguments in this way. It made no sense to me that an actual Muslim would consider a non trinitarian Christian to be muslim. I said "whacko" because there are some nutty folks that go to extremes to push/promote their position, including putting quotes on Muslim forums to be quoted elsewhere.
It sounded more like a sneak attack by a trinitarian posing as a muslim, trying to belittle the non trinitarian position.
I hadn't even considered that you may have known that, since I was just surmising at how peculiar it would be for a Muslim to think like that ... but it did seem odd for you to quote from a Muslim forum to support your trinitarian view.
Bill, that is what I heard. Be that as it may--I am glad this has been moved so I can really answer you. First you are so wrong in your assumption that it is peculiar for a Muslim to think that way--it has been that way for centuries. Or for a unitarian to convert to Islam because of this issue. Read your history. This(in bold) is written by a Muslim.
Second, I never used it support a trinitarian view as it actually opposes it. Make some sense?? I found it interesting. You seem to bring a negative bias to the table here. Maybe that is why you were offended--your own assumptions. Maybe that is why you thought it was a fake trinitarian ruse. It offended and made no sense to you and you reacted before considering the topic. Unitarians being compare to Muslims seems bothersome to you as an insult. Look at this as two differing faiths being compared. Muslims are not all terrorists. There faith is considered by them, the final authority on the issue of God--stemming from the same source.
It is more than reasonable for them to view unitarian Christians as misguided Muslims--The beliefs are similar in many ways.
Historically, from the viewpoint of Islam, there has been a long association between Christian Unitarians and Muslims. Indeed when the seventh century Byzantine Emperor Heraclius first heard of Muhammad and his message, he thought it was just another Arian heresy coming from the depths of the desert. Byzantine Christianity had a long history of dealing with heresies. Diversity of religion was long seen as a threat to the state, a form of treason
Muslims believe that the upsurge of Unitarian belief which occurred in western Europe from the 1500s was directly related to the translation of the Bible into the language of the people. While it had been kept from them, the priests and the pictures in churches told the Gospel story to them. Once the laity could actually read the Bible, they found no trace of pope, of priests, of bishops, of trinities, of riches amongst those who followed Jesus. It is this modern form of Unitarianism which was influential in western Europe and thence in the United States. However, like these early modern readers of the Bible, Muslims trace the roots of Unitarian belief back to Jerusalem and the message of Jesus himself
.
Unitarians and Muslims both believe that the New Testament is an uncertain guide to the actual events of this early period. This does not mean that there is not truth there, although details and interpretations vary. Muslims regard the books of the New Testament as mainly the product of the followers of Paul of Tarsus, who did not know Jesus, but whose followers became dominant. It is worthy of note that of the many epistles in the New Testament, only one comes from James, called the brother of Jesus, while the rest appear to come from Paul or his followers.
Jesus did not claim to be God. In the Gospel according to John it is recorded that Jesus said "…the Father is greater than I" (14:28). That a prophet would even state this is unlikely as there was no doubt in the minds of the early followers of the Gospel that God was one and no human could claim divine attributes. Such notions were pagan. Like other prophets, Jesus explained that he was teaching only what God had given to him.
There is a long history and association. Unitarian beliefs are similar to Islam. Muslims believe Jesus was born of a virgin. They believe Jesus was created like Adam--from the dust of the earth--They don't believe He was the Son of God--but a man. They call Jesus a prophet--He did miracles--They don't believe in the crucifixion. They do hold Jesus in esteem.
Qur'an repeatedly reminds us that Adam, the first human being, was born with neither a human mother nor a human father. Therefore, Jesus' miraculous birth affords him no higher standing or presumed partnership with God. When God ordains a matter, He merely says, "Be" and it is so. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be!" And he was" . In Islam, Jesus is regarded as a human prophet and messenger of God, not part of God Himself
In TWI--we believed Jesus to be a man--created(second Adam)--born of a virgin--did miracles--we believed in the cucifixtion, but got rid of the cross. They don't believe in the ressurection as we did, but we had to put our own spin on even that.
It was not such an oddball comparison if you take the time to look at both systems of belief and compare them.
Good call, mods/paw, splitting this off, as Twink suggested
Rhino, you're a religious bigot, but it's not your fault. You simply haven't met the "right" muslims. I repeat, their "Prophet" was wrong about some things. He rewrote the Bible to favor the Arabs (Hagar's children) and he did not accept Jesus' death or oneness with the Father -- that's big stuff. But he called people back to the oneness of God, and that's the point here -- monotheism, and that's why I say I've met muslims who worship the same God as I do. The God of Abraham, and the God of the Gentiles, the One God.
No, I do not put all Muslims in the same basket .. I specifically asked about what type Muslim the JCING types were being compared to. (terrorists?) Those are the ones making the news, and I'm not sure how many Muslims believe Muhammad was wrong about some things, as you do. He was their swash buckling prophet ... I have not seen many denounce even the current terrorist activities.
A religious bigot would label them as all the same, which seems more what Juedes did regarding all cult members that accepted the jcing concept. There is your example of religious bigotry. But I think I refrained from labeling Juedes as such, since I didn't want to start calling people names.
But the percentage of Muslims polled in Great Britain that supported/allowed for terrorism as acceptable was alarmingly high.
Just to add--ironically Muslims use the same "Pagan" defense against the trinity as we used to. Or some still do--was that you Rhino? If you really look at their defense of "One God" you will hear loud echoes of TWI.
That is not a slam--it is a fact.
To add:
If a belief system is similar it will be defended the same way. Nothing odd about that --it makes sense. Since it is a defense of "One God" it will use the same logic.
They are both rooted in a staunch defense of monotheism.
Just consider for a moment it has all come from the same source--differing takes.
The intent of Juedes seemed clear ... to him the concept of JCING was accepted because we could not think and only accepted VP as MOG. Geisha has been rather clear on her opinion of correct Christian doctrine. Introducing the suggestion those one god Christians are more like Muslims seemed another slight, more than adding to a reasonable dialogue.
I cannot speak to Juede's intent, I could only respond to the words he used. But I wasn't speaking of Juede's at all, I was speaking of Geisha's posts regarding unitarians and Moslems.
Geisha is clear on her doctrine, to be sure. But I would emphasise what SEEMED to you to be another slight, could have been something else entirely. She has tried to explain her point, I will take her word for it rather than ASSUME I know her intent was truly something else.
See the difference? Speculating over someone's intention may get us a correct answer or it may get us an incorrect one. If it is an incorrect one, you are potentially inflicting needless pain on someone - I've been there, remember?
I have no reason not to take her word for it when she says that was not her intention.
I'm not interested in debating the trinity really, only in looking at how some Trinitarians appear to be close minded on the issue, as Juedes portrayed in his "attack" on those that hold to JCING. So some showed good reason to consider the jcing position, even without vp's book.
I am sure some Trinitarians are closed minded. I am sure some Unitarians are also close minded. I am not sure that acknowledging such refutes Juedes' statements. I believe Mark did a good job of it though, in the original thread - by explaining how he did do his own research and came to his own conclusions.
But the point about those old writings is interesting. Maybe there is book of Jesus somewhere ...Matthew Mark Luke Jesus John ... of course Christians don't believe it is just a label assigned to a group ... he is the savior for all mankind.
Or was he just a guy that got good press and he never saw snow on the gas pumps either? What do we really know from those writings?
If Jesus is the savior for ALL mankind - then why have labels at all - why divide by Christian, Trinitarian, Unitarian, Moslem, Jew, etc?
Jesus came with a message of peace, he was murdered for it. Following his death, many of his followers used his message of peace to inflict further strife, division, and even war. I am not saying that is how ALL or even MANY Christians use it today - but historically that did occur and to one extent or another, it still occurs to this very day.
I cannot speak to Juede's intent, I could only respond to the words he used. But I wasn't speaking of Juede's at all, I was speaking of Geisha's posts regarding unitarians and Moslems.
Well since the Juedes quote set the tone ... he was fairly clear ... he gave the reason why WAY JCING people believed as they do ... he had no evidence of that ... yes I judged his words as expressing a more bigoted opinion than I believe is accurate. And I think his words can be fairly viewed as "an attack"
And remember Geisha first stated JCING was wrong, even a child could see that.
Geisha gave her interpretation of the muslim board post, I gave mine. I also made the point that questioning if a JCING Christian is really a Muslim did not seem a very positive view. It seemed more a continuation of the Juedes line of thinking about JCING people.
If we have to parse all words and nuance our thinking more than that, the same things will be said, but in more "devious" fashion ... as I see it.
If Jesus is the savior for ALL mankind - then why have labels at all - why divide by Christian, Trinitarian, Unitarian, Moslem, Jew, etc?
Well because Christians believe their way is the only way, none other will they abide. And it seems to me that many trinitarians are especially dogmatic ... WOWs were painted as children of a false religion and tarred and feathered for not preaching the trinity.
TWI may have been as dogmatic on the issue, hard to say, but they did not have the power of the major religions.
Well because Christians believe their way is the only way, none other will they abide.
Not all Christians think that way Bill. As you may know.
I am what some would call a Christian, but I don't use the word of myself or throw it around about myself because of the current state of western Christianity as depicted in the statement I quoted from you. Which is unfortunately true in many, too many cases.
Well since the Juedes quote set the tone ... he was fairly clear ... he gave the reason why WAY JCING people believed as they do ... he had no evidence of that ... yes I judged his words as expressing a more bigoted opinion than I believe is accurate. And I think his words can be fairly viewed as "an attack"
And remember Geisha first stated JCING was wrong, even a child could see that.
Geisha gave her interpretation of the muslim board post, I gave mine. I also made the point that questioning if a JCING Christian is really a Muslim did not seem a very positive view. It seemed more a continuation of the Juedes line of thinking about JCING people.
If we have to parse all words and nuance our thinking more than that, the same things will be said, but in more "devious" fashion ... as I see it.
Well because Christians believe their way is the only way, none other will they abide. And it seems to me that many trinitarians are especially dogmatic ... WOWs were painted as children of a false religion and tarred and feathered for not preaching the trinity.
TWI may have been as dogmatic on the issue, hard to say, but they did not have the power of the major religions.
I have to go soon, but I just wanted to say this--I said AFTER being told the truth by Billy Grahm a child would see it--Are you not the one who complains about being misquoted?
I just wanted to share a bit more with you on the comparisons--but your last statement makes me wonder if we were in the same TWI--Gosh, I chased down a bunch of nuns once to call them idolators!! I kid you not--we had songs on this topic--it was a big part of our identity. I was a NUT on this topic. Imagine how hard it was for me to come to another understanding. Which is why Pawtuckets post spoke to me. What is the reason Christians appear dogmatic on this? What is it that they believe that makes this such an important issue to their faith? It is so simple--just as we believed it was idolatry--Christians believe it is a denial of God, a big one, but still have great love for unitarians. Like Pastor Juedes.
Here is a better breakdown for you and why it makes it an interesting topic: You may or may not really care--so don't worry--just a cut and paste. Written by a Muslim
ISLAM
1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES
Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.
The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:
The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75).
2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES
Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus.
"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21).
3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES
The Quran says:
"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).
It should also be noted about his birth that:
Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).
4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES
"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30).
5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES
Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.
"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).
6. Do Muslims believe in the Trinity? NO
Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation.
God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity:
"People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO
"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).
The Quran also states:
"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).
8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO
"And because of their saying, ‘We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God'- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" (Quran 4:157-158).
CHRISTIANITY
1. Do Christians believe Jesus was a human being and Messenger of God? YES & NO
With the exception of Unitarian Christians, who like all the early followers of Jesus, still do not believe in the Trinity, most Christians now believe in the Divinity of Jesus, which is connected to the belief in Trinity. They say he is the second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time "fully" God in every respect.
2. Do Christians believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES
A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time "fully" God Almighty in every respect.
Christians believe however, that while she was a virgin, she was married to a man named Joseph (Bible: Matthew:1:18). According to Matthew 1:25, Joseph "kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus".
3. Do Christians believe he had a miraculous birth? YES
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit" (Bible: Matthew 1:18)
4. Do Christians believe he performed miracles? YES
"And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretches out thy hand to heal, and sign and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus (Bible: Acts 4:30).
Christians believe that Jesus performed these miracles because he was the Son of God as well as the incarnation of God.
5. Do Christians believe in the Trinity? YES
With the exception of the Unitarian Christians, who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity, according to the Catholic encyclopedia, is the term used for the central doctrine of the Christian religion. The belief is that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons or beings are distinct from each another, while being similar in character: uncreated and omnipotent.
The First Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Const., "De fide. cath.", iv). The First Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes that of all revealed truths, this is the most impenetrable to reason.
6. Do Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God? YES
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him (Bible: John 3:16).
However, it is interesting to note that the term "son of God" is used in other parts of the Bible to refer to Adam (Bible: Luke 3:38), Israel (Bible: Exodus 4:22) and David (Bible: Psalms 2:7) as well. The creatures of God are usually referred to in the Bible as children of God.
The role of Paul of Tarsus in shaping this belief and the belief in Trinity
The notion of Jesus as son of God is something that was established under the influence of Paul of Tarsus (originally named Saul), who had been an enemy of Jesus, but later changed course and joined the disciples after the departure of Jesus.
Later, however, he initiated a number of changes into early Christian teachings, in contradiction, for instance, to disciples like Barnabas, who believed in the Oneness of God and who had actually lived and met with Jesus.
Paul is considered by a number of Christian scholars to be the father of Christianity due to his additions of the following ideas:
that Jesus is the son of God,
the concept of Atonement,
the renunciation of the Law of the Torah.
Paul did these things in hopes of winning over the Gentiles (non-Jewish people). His letters are another of the primary sources of information on Jesus according to the Christian tradition.
The original followers of Prophet Jesus opposed these blatant misrepresentations of the message of Jesus. They struggled to reject the notion of the Divinity of Jesus for close to 200 years.
One person who was an original follower of Jesus was Barnabas. He was a Jew born in Cyrus and a successful preacher of the teachings of Jesus. Because of his closeness to Jesus, he was an important member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had had gathered together following the disappearance of Jesus.
The question of Jesus's nature, origin and relationship with God was not raised amongst Barnabas and the small group of disciples. Jesus was considered a man miraculously endowed by God. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view.
The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 CE Iranaeus (130-200) wrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy. He quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This indicates that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity.
In 325 (CE), a council of Christian leaders met at Nicaea and made Paul's beliefs officially part of Christian doctrine. It also ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script which contradicted Paul's beliefs should be destroyed. An edict was issued that anyone in possession of these Gospels would be put to death.
The Gospel of Barnabas has miraculously survived though.
7. Do Christians believe he was killed on the cross? YES
This is a core Christian belief and it relates to the concept of atonement. According to this belief, Jesus died to save mankind from sin. However, this is not stated explicitly in the four gospels which form the primary source texts of Christianity. It is found, however, in Romans 6:8,9.
Christians believe Jesus was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped and finally hung up on the cross to endure a slow and painful death.
According, to Christian belief, the original sin of Adam and Eve of eating from the forbidden tree was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless, innocent Jesus.
Resurrection
The four Gospels and the Epistles of St. Paul are the main sources of Christianity which discuss the Resurrection of Jesus after his crucifixion. According to St. Matthew, Jesus appeared to the holy women, and again on a mountain in Galilee. Mark's Gospel tells a different story: Jesus was seen by Mary Magdalene, by the two disciples at Emmaus, and the Eleven before his Ascension into heaven.
Luke's Gospel says Jesus walked with the disciples to Emmaus, appeared to Peter and to the assembled disciples in Jerusalem. In John's Gospel, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, to the ten Apostles on Easter Sunday, to the Eleven a week later, and to seven disciples at the Sea of Tiberias.
Another account of the resurrection by St. Paul is found in Bible: Corinthians 15: 3-8.
According to Christian belief, Resurrection is a manifestation of God's justice, Who exalted Christ to a life of glory, as Christ had humbled himself unto death (Phil., 2: 8-9). This event also completes the mystery of Christian salvation and redemption. The death of Jesus frees believers from sin, and with his resurrection, he restores to them the most important privileges lost by sin (Bible: Romans 4:25).
More importantly, the belief in the resurrection of Jesus indicates Christian acknowledgment of Christ as the immortal God, the cause of believers' own resurrection (Bible: I Corinthians 4: 21; Phil., 3:20-21), as well as the model and the support of a new life of grace (Bible: Romans 4: 4-6; 9-11).
You are correct, WD - I by no means know or understand ALL of Jesus' teachings, nor have I studied anything close to ALL of the Midrash (that would take at least a lifetime). I do see many, many similarities however.
Indeed, I sometimes think that if a new religion had not been born out of the teachings of Jesus, (a new "label" assigned to a group of people) that his teachings would have become a part of the Midrash or a part of the books of the prophets. Maybe not . . .
Interesting thought! I don't know though they were pretty PO'd at him, maybe in time.
Or for a unitarian to convert to Islam because of this issue. Read your history.
Yes, let's consider history shall we? In your historical quotes, I noticed that they come from a rather narrow section of history, that of the Byzantine Empire, and that from the Muslim POV. ... Sorry Charlie, there is a LOT more to the Unitarian history than that.
Basically when you're talking about Unitarians, you are talking about something that has quite a wide spread of history, and cover a lot of differing opinions and sects within the Unitarian field than you're aware of.
1) There are, as it has been noted in this thread, those who refer to themselves as 'biblical Unitarians' or 'Christian Unitarians', those who (more or less) believe in the Bible and its teachings, who believe that Jesus was the savior of the world, and who even believe that Jesus was the son of God, but who do not accept the trinitarian dogma. That is their only exception.
2) There are those who are of the unitarian and/or universalist mindset who are more or less independent of the Christian doctrine, or who are independent of Christianity altogether. You find them in the Unitarian Universalist Association and other UU groups around the world.
3) There are even other groups that could arguably be called unitarian.
Of all of those groups, the ones that wound up converting to Islam is quite small. ... Despite your source's claim otherwise.
As per Juedes activities, one can safely say that any and all of his 'anti-cult' opinions have been _heavily_ influenced, ... nay, determined by his orthodox trinitarian beliefs. ... Period!
Unitarian is a broad term that can be used to refer to Ebionites, modalists, Arians, Socinians, Jews, Muslims, et al., and a term that is now probably used inappropriately (in the technical sense) where used to refer to UUs. “Jesus Only” folks (e.g. Oneness Pentecostals) also are Unitarian, though they enigmatically attempt to recognize Jesus as a unipersonal deity who is both Father and Son.
Unitarianism, as a theological term, is characterized by the view that God is unipersonal, rather than characterized by a Christological view. Any Unitarian view of God is, nevertheless, necessarily based either upon abject ignorance concerning Christ or upon aberrant, false views about Christ.
I agree it is a limited perspective. My point was more to illustrate Muslims perception and the differences they draw between two outside views of Christianity. I think your other points are good.
I actually never claimed a large group of unitarians converted to Islam--that was written by a Muslim. I just pointed out it is easier from the unitarian position, but then again anyone can convert.
As for people like Dr. Juedes--I agree with your statement--my point exactly on another thread.
To each his own. Don't be sorry.
WaySider,
That one stung a bit, but in truth you have a valid observation. Islam is a lifestyle--but, you know as well as I that Christianity is too. However, given the Ted Haggards--VP -- Swaggart--Bakker--et al. Not a debate I am likely to win.
I would just point you to a more loving and active body of believers--my best bet would be out of the US though.
It is funny .. but to me, much of this theological name calling ... trans gender religion hooky pookism talk strikes me a lot like "who would win ... Superman ... or the Hulk?"
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Abigail
WhiteDove, if you study the Midrash you will find that what Jesus was teaching HAD been taught before, it just wasn't being practiced much in his day and time. There were differing sects within Judaism, just as there are today, just as there are among Christians.
Jesus didn't really teach a message of change, he taught a message of return.
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rhino
The head of the Christian church is Jesus Christ ... he did not teach rule by the sword, nor do we see any of that in those early followers (that must have come from those trinitarians
)
The head of Islam is Muhammad ... he did convert by the sword, and their teachings indicate submission by force is approved. I have not heard of any recent "honor killings" by practicing Christians, nor stonings of adulterous women. (though some in TWI treated them harshly)
The contrast is pretty clear as I see it ... no need to try to amalgamize the two religions for diversity's sake... or whatever. Calling someone muslim for not believing the Trinity would seem a rather harsh and unfair judgment.
The Trinity issue does not define a cult, except to the Trinitarians perhaps. Trying to make that legitimate doctrinal issue central to the cult definition seems to miss the mark, and is an unfair "attack" on all that hold that belief.
But even if JCING is true, it may well be that VP chose the issue more because it put him in contrast to the major denominations, which he always seemed to prefer. It distinguished his product. (It is this aspect of the JCING issue that makes it "on topic" ... it is also a distinguishing part of Lynn's "package". The actual doctrine of JCING is straying a little)
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WhiteDove
Agreed what I meant was it was a change for them, to return to teaching personally . In that sense it was a mesage of change, at least in practice. But it was not at least for the most part new in content, as you said. I'd have to look at some of his teachings before I could say all though.
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geisha779
"My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position."
Sounds like he believed this and thought I knew it. It is an accusation of dishonesty.
I don't know--how many threads do we need? You tell me.
The "Little girl" comment was to emphasize I am no threat --meaning one little (girl, female, woman, weaker vessel-whatever you want to call us)voice is not going to effect a change on ones beliefs unless they are unsure of them to begin with.
Hope that clears it up for you.
JAL can think what ever he wishes, as can Rhino but, I feel Dr. Juedes response to the letter was very good. I liked Pawtuckets response as well, as I have thought the same thing. Instead of telling God who He is, as a real live God He should be able to reveal Himself to us--if we humbly ask Him--He may show a bit more than we have learned before--or not.
Seems to me in TWI we were all about this topic--we knew the truth--may have missed something while we were running around telling everyone who Jesus is not.
Oh yeah--we did--or at least I did. The whole Jesus thing just passed me right on by. He was my big BRO--well now He MUCH different to me now.
Pastor Juedes represents a position held by a large majority of Christians on this issue. That does not mean he doesn't care for those who think otherwise--I think his commitment to we ex-twiers and the ones still trapped within is reflected in his time and effort.
As for the Muslim forum--well, I said it was off topic and I just posted it in case anyone was interested. I didn't expect a fire fight. ALL three major religions share something. They are all from the same source so to speak. A look at what makes them differ is interesting to me. Christianity sprung from Judaism--Islam is an extension of Christianity--false or not--that is what it is.
The similarities between unitarians and Muslims are different than that of trinitarians--a distinct line is drawn with them
As their arguments are so similar to what we said in TWI--I thought some might be interested in looking at it. Knowing Muslims and having discussed their faith with them, it did not seem such an odd thing.
I threw us off topic--my mistake--I didn't expect that kind of response.
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rhino
It doesn't sound like that to me ... I never accused you of anything. I did not imply you were a liar ... and only now did I have any idea what you were referring to.
Having been around many boards, I have seen others present arguments in this way. It made no sense to me that an actual Muslim would consider a non trinitarian Christian to be muslim. I said "whacko" because there are some nutty folks that go to extremes to push/promote their position, including putting quotes on Muslim forums to be quoted elsewhere.
It sounded more like a sneak attack by a trinitarian posing as a muslim, trying to belittle the non trinitarian position.
I hadn't even considered that you may have known that, since I was just surmising at how peculiar it would be for a Muslim to think like that ... but it did seem odd for you to quote from a Muslim forum to support your trinitarian view.
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Abigail
Okay, I've never studied Muhammad or Islam overly much, so for the sake of argument I will accept your premise as true. That still does not mean all of today's Moslem's are terrorists, nor does it mean that was the intent of Geisha's post. Moslems today are as diverse as Jews and Christians - there are many factions/sects with a variety of beliefs and interpretations.
Those of us who do not believe in the trinty tend to see the worship of the trinity as polytheistic, but it would appear that those who worship the trinity do NOT see it as polytheistic. It might be interesting to learn why that is - why they consider themselves monotheistic, no?
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Abigail
You are correct, WD - I by no means know or understand ALL of Jesus' teachings, nor have I studied anything close to ALL of the Midrash (that would take at least a lifetime). I do see many, many similarities however.
Indeed, I sometimes think that if a new religion had not been born out of the teachings of Jesus, (a new "label" assigned to a group of people) that his teachings would have become a part of the Midrash or a part of the books of the prophets. Maybe not . . .
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anotherDan
Good call, mods/paw, splitting this off, as Twink suggested
Rhino, you're a religious bigot, but it's not your fault. You simply haven't met the "right" muslims. I repeat, their "Prophet" was wrong about some things. He rewrote the Bible to favor the Arabs (Hagar's children) and he did not accept Jesus' death or oneness with the Father -- that's big stuff. But he called people back to the oneness of God, and that's the point here -- monotheism, and that's why I say I've met muslims who worship the same God as I do. The God of Abraham, and the God of the Gentiles, the One God.
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rhino
The intent of Juedes seemed clear ... to him the concept of JCING was accepted because we could not think and only accepted VP as MOG. Geisha has been rather clear on her opinion of correct Christian doctrine. Introducing the suggestion those one god Christians are more like Muslims seemed another slight, more than adding to a reasonable dialogue.
I'm not interested in debating the trinity really, only in looking at how some Trinitarians appear to be close minded on the issue, as Juedes portrayed in his "attack" on those that hold to JCING. So some showed good reason to consider the jcing position, even without vp's book.
But the point about those old writings is interesting. Maybe there is book of Jesus somewhere ...Matthew Mark Luke Jesus John ... of course Christians don't believe it is just a label assigned to a group ... he is the savior for all mankind.
Or was he just a guy that got good press and he never saw snow on the gas pumps either? What do we really know from those writings?
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geisha779
Bill, that is what I heard. Be that as it may--I am glad this has been moved so I can really answer you. First you are so wrong in your assumption that it is peculiar for a Muslim to think that way--it has been that way for centuries. Or for a unitarian to convert to Islam because of this issue. Read your history. This(in bold) is written by a Muslim.
Second, I never used it support a trinitarian view as it actually opposes it. Make some sense?? I found it interesting. You seem to bring a negative bias to the table here. Maybe that is why you were offended--your own assumptions. Maybe that is why you thought it was a fake trinitarian ruse. It offended and made no sense to you and you reacted before considering the topic. Unitarians being compare to Muslims seems bothersome to you as an insult. Look at this as two differing faiths being compared. Muslims are not all terrorists. There faith is considered by them, the final authority on the issue of God--stemming from the same source.
It is more than reasonable for them to view unitarian Christians as misguided Muslims--The beliefs are similar in many ways.
Historically, from the viewpoint of Islam, there has been a long association between Christian Unitarians and Muslims. Indeed when the seventh century Byzantine Emperor Heraclius first heard of Muhammad and his message, he thought it was just another Arian heresy coming from the depths of the desert. Byzantine Christianity had a long history of dealing with heresies. Diversity of religion was long seen as a threat to the state, a form of treason
Muslims believe that the upsurge of Unitarian belief which occurred in western Europe from the 1500s was directly related to the translation of the Bible into the language of the people. While it had been kept from them, the priests and the pictures in churches told the Gospel story to them. Once the laity could actually read the Bible, they found no trace of pope, of priests, of bishops, of trinities, of riches amongst those who followed Jesus. It is this modern form of Unitarianism which was influential in western Europe and thence in the United States. However, like these early modern readers of the Bible, Muslims trace the roots of Unitarian belief back to Jerusalem and the message of Jesus himself
.
Unitarians and Muslims both believe that the New Testament is an uncertain guide to the actual events of this early period. This does not mean that there is not truth there, although details and interpretations vary. Muslims regard the books of the New Testament as mainly the product of the followers of Paul of Tarsus, who did not know Jesus, but whose followers became dominant. It is worthy of note that of the many epistles in the New Testament, only one comes from James, called the brother of Jesus, while the rest appear to come from Paul or his followers.
Jesus did not claim to be God. In the Gospel according to John it is recorded that Jesus said "…the Father is greater than I" (14:28). That a prophet would even state this is unlikely as there was no doubt in the minds of the early followers of the Gospel that God was one and no human could claim divine attributes. Such notions were pagan. Like other prophets, Jesus explained that he was teaching only what God had given to him.
There is a long history and association. Unitarian beliefs are similar to Islam. Muslims believe Jesus was born of a virgin. They believe Jesus was created like Adam--from the dust of the earth--They don't believe He was the Son of God--but a man. They call Jesus a prophet--He did miracles--They don't believe in the crucifixion. They do hold Jesus in esteem.
Qur'an repeatedly reminds us that Adam, the first human being, was born with neither a human mother nor a human father. Therefore, Jesus' miraculous birth affords him no higher standing or presumed partnership with God. When God ordains a matter, He merely says, "Be" and it is so. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be!" And he was" . In Islam, Jesus is regarded as a human prophet and messenger of God, not part of God Himself
In TWI--we believed Jesus to be a man--created(second Adam)--born of a virgin--did miracles--we believed in the cucifixtion, but got rid of the cross. They don't believe in the ressurection as we did, but we had to put our own spin on even that.
It was not such an oddball comparison if you take the time to look at both systems of belief and compare them.
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rhino
No, I do not put all Muslims in the same basket .. I specifically asked about what type Muslim the JCING types were being compared to. (terrorists?) Those are the ones making the news, and I'm not sure how many Muslims believe Muhammad was wrong about some things, as you do. He was their swash buckling prophet ... I have not seen many denounce even the current terrorist activities.
A religious bigot would label them as all the same, which seems more what Juedes did regarding all cult members that accepted the jcing concept. There is your example of religious bigotry. But I think I refrained from labeling Juedes as such, since I didn't want to start calling people names.
But the percentage of Muslims polled in Great Britain that supported/allowed for terrorism as acceptable was alarmingly high.
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geisha779
Rhino,
Just to add--ironically Muslims use the same "Pagan" defense against the trinity as we used to. Or some still do--was that you Rhino? If you really look at their defense of "One God" you will hear loud echoes of TWI.
That is not a slam--it is a fact.
To add:
If a belief system is similar it will be defended the same way. Nothing odd about that --it makes sense. Since it is a defense of "One God" it will use the same logic.
They are both rooted in a staunch defense of monotheism.
Just consider for a moment it has all come from the same source--differing takes.
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Abigail
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rhino
Well since the Juedes quote set the tone ... he was fairly clear ... he gave the reason why WAY JCING people believed as they do ... he had no evidence of that ... yes I judged his words as expressing a more bigoted opinion than I believe is accurate. And I think his words can be fairly viewed as "an attack"
And remember Geisha first stated JCING was wrong, even a child could see that.
Geisha gave her interpretation of the muslim board post, I gave mine. I also made the point that questioning if a JCING Christian is really a Muslim did not seem a very positive view. It seemed more a continuation of the Juedes line of thinking about JCING people.
If we have to parse all words and nuance our thinking more than that, the same things will be said, but in more "devious" fashion ... as I see it.
Well because Christians believe their way is the only way, none other will they abide. And it seems to me that many trinitarians are especially dogmatic ... WOWs were painted as children of a false religion and tarred and feathered for not preaching the trinity.
TWI may have been as dogmatic on the issue, hard to say, but they did not have the power of the major religions.
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cman
Not all Christians think that way Bill. As you may know.
I am what some would call a Christian, but I don't use the word of myself or throw it around about myself because of the current state of western Christianity as depicted in the statement I quoted from you. Which is unfortunately true in many, too many cases.
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geisha779
I have to go soon, but I just wanted to say this--I said AFTER being told the truth by Billy Grahm a child would see it--Are you not the one who complains about being misquoted?
I just wanted to share a bit more with you on the comparisons--but your last statement makes me wonder if we were in the same TWI--Gosh, I chased down a bunch of nuns once to call them idolators!! I kid you not--we had songs on this topic--it was a big part of our identity. I was a NUT on this topic. Imagine how hard it was for me to come to another understanding. Which is why Pawtuckets post spoke to me. What is the reason Christians appear dogmatic on this? What is it that they believe that makes this such an important issue to their faith? It is so simple--just as we believed it was idolatry--Christians believe it is a denial of God, a big one, but still have great love for unitarians. Like Pastor Juedes.
Here is a better breakdown for you and why it makes it an interesting topic: You may or may not really care--so don't worry--just a cut and paste. Written by a Muslim
ISLAM
1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES
Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.
The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:
The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75).
2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES
Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus.
"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21).
3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES
The Quran says:
"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).
It should also be noted about his birth that:
Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).
4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES
"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30).
5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES
Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.
"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).
6. Do Muslims believe in the Trinity? NO
Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation.
God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity:
"People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO
"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).
The Quran also states:
"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).
8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO
"And because of their saying, ‘We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God'- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" (Quran 4:157-158).
CHRISTIANITY
1. Do Christians believe Jesus was a human being and Messenger of God? YES & NO
With the exception of Unitarian Christians, who like all the early followers of Jesus, still do not believe in the Trinity, most Christians now believe in the Divinity of Jesus, which is connected to the belief in Trinity. They say he is the second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time "fully" God in every respect.
2. Do Christians believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES
A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time "fully" God Almighty in every respect.
Christians believe however, that while she was a virgin, she was married to a man named Joseph (Bible: Matthew:1:18). According to Matthew 1:25, Joseph "kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus".
3. Do Christians believe he had a miraculous birth? YES
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit" (Bible: Matthew 1:18)
4. Do Christians believe he performed miracles? YES
"And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretches out thy hand to heal, and sign and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus (Bible: Acts 4:30).
Christians believe that Jesus performed these miracles because he was the Son of God as well as the incarnation of God.
5. Do Christians believe in the Trinity? YES
With the exception of the Unitarian Christians, who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity, according to the Catholic encyclopedia, is the term used for the central doctrine of the Christian religion. The belief is that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons or beings are distinct from each another, while being similar in character: uncreated and omnipotent.
The First Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Const., "De fide. cath.", iv). The First Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes that of all revealed truths, this is the most impenetrable to reason.
6. Do Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God? YES
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him (Bible: John 3:16).
However, it is interesting to note that the term "son of God" is used in other parts of the Bible to refer to Adam (Bible: Luke 3:38), Israel (Bible: Exodus 4:22) and David (Bible: Psalms 2:7) as well. The creatures of God are usually referred to in the Bible as children of God.
The role of Paul of Tarsus in shaping this belief and the belief in Trinity
The notion of Jesus as son of God is something that was established under the influence of Paul of Tarsus (originally named Saul), who had been an enemy of Jesus, but later changed course and joined the disciples after the departure of Jesus.
Later, however, he initiated a number of changes into early Christian teachings, in contradiction, for instance, to disciples like Barnabas, who believed in the Oneness of God and who had actually lived and met with Jesus.
Paul is considered by a number of Christian scholars to be the father of Christianity due to his additions of the following ideas:
that Jesus is the son of God,
the concept of Atonement,
the renunciation of the Law of the Torah.
Paul did these things in hopes of winning over the Gentiles (non-Jewish people). His letters are another of the primary sources of information on Jesus according to the Christian tradition.
The original followers of Prophet Jesus opposed these blatant misrepresentations of the message of Jesus. They struggled to reject the notion of the Divinity of Jesus for close to 200 years.
One person who was an original follower of Jesus was Barnabas. He was a Jew born in Cyrus and a successful preacher of the teachings of Jesus. Because of his closeness to Jesus, he was an important member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had had gathered together following the disappearance of Jesus.
The question of Jesus's nature, origin and relationship with God was not raised amongst Barnabas and the small group of disciples. Jesus was considered a man miraculously endowed by God. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view.
The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 CE Iranaeus (130-200) wrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy. He quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This indicates that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity.
In 325 (CE), a council of Christian leaders met at Nicaea and made Paul's beliefs officially part of Christian doctrine. It also ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script which contradicted Paul's beliefs should be destroyed. An edict was issued that anyone in possession of these Gospels would be put to death.
The Gospel of Barnabas has miraculously survived though.
7. Do Christians believe he was killed on the cross? YES
This is a core Christian belief and it relates to the concept of atonement. According to this belief, Jesus died to save mankind from sin. However, this is not stated explicitly in the four gospels which form the primary source texts of Christianity. It is found, however, in Romans 6:8,9.
Christians believe Jesus was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped and finally hung up on the cross to endure a slow and painful death.
According, to Christian belief, the original sin of Adam and Eve of eating from the forbidden tree was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless, innocent Jesus.
Resurrection
The four Gospels and the Epistles of St. Paul are the main sources of Christianity which discuss the Resurrection of Jesus after his crucifixion. According to St. Matthew, Jesus appeared to the holy women, and again on a mountain in Galilee. Mark's Gospel tells a different story: Jesus was seen by Mary Magdalene, by the two disciples at Emmaus, and the Eleven before his Ascension into heaven.
Luke's Gospel says Jesus walked with the disciples to Emmaus, appeared to Peter and to the assembled disciples in Jerusalem. In John's Gospel, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, to the ten Apostles on Easter Sunday, to the Eleven a week later, and to seven disciples at the Sea of Tiberias.
Another account of the resurrection by St. Paul is found in Bible: Corinthians 15: 3-8.
According to Christian belief, Resurrection is a manifestation of God's justice, Who exalted Christ to a life of glory, as Christ had humbled himself unto death (Phil., 2: 8-9). This event also completes the mystery of Christian salvation and redemption. The death of Jesus frees believers from sin, and with his resurrection, he restores to them the most important privileges lost by sin (Bible: Romans 4:25).
More importantly, the belief in the resurrection of Jesus indicates Christian acknowledgment of Christ as the immortal God, the cause of believers' own resurrection (Bible: I Corinthians 4: 21; Phil., 3:20-21), as well as the model and the support of a new life of grace (Bible: Romans 4: 4-6; 9-11).
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WhiteDove
Interesting thought! I don't know though they were pretty PO'd at him, maybe in time.
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waysider
Aside from Monotheism, what similarities really link Islam with Christianity?
Islam is much more than a set of religious beliefs, it's a way of life.
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Abigail
Isn't Christianity supposed to be a way of life too?
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GarthP2000
Yes, let's consider history shall we? In your historical quotes, I noticed that they come from a rather narrow section of history, that of the Byzantine Empire, and that from the Muslim POV. ... Sorry Charlie, there is a LOT more to the Unitarian history than that.
Basically when you're talking about Unitarians, you are talking about something that has quite a wide spread of history, and cover a lot of differing opinions and sects within the Unitarian field than you're aware of.
1) There are, as it has been noted in this thread, those who refer to themselves as 'biblical Unitarians' or 'Christian Unitarians', those who (more or less) believe in the Bible and its teachings, who believe that Jesus was the savior of the world, and who even believe that Jesus was the son of God, but who do not accept the trinitarian dogma. That is their only exception.
2) There are those who are of the unitarian and/or universalist mindset who are more or less independent of the Christian doctrine, or who are independent of Christianity altogether. You find them in the Unitarian Universalist Association and other UU groups around the world.
3) There are even other groups that could arguably be called unitarian.
Of all of those groups, the ones that wound up converting to Islam is quite small. ... Despite your source's claim otherwise.
As per Juedes activities, one can safely say that any and all of his 'anti-cult' opinions have been _heavily_ influenced, ... nay, determined by his orthodox trinitarian beliefs. ... Period!
Sorry.
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Cynic
Unitarian is a broad term that can be used to refer to Ebionites, modalists, Arians, Socinians, Jews, Muslims, et al., and a term that is now probably used inappropriately (in the technical sense) where used to refer to UUs. “Jesus Only” folks (e.g. Oneness Pentecostals) also are Unitarian, though they enigmatically attempt to recognize Jesus as a unipersonal deity who is both Father and Son.
Unitarianism, as a theological term, is characterized by the view that God is unipersonal, rather than characterized by a Christological view. Any Unitarian view of God is, nevertheless, necessarily based either upon abject ignorance concerning Christ or upon aberrant, false views about Christ.
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geisha779
Hi Garth
I agree it is a limited perspective. My point was more to illustrate Muslims perception and the differences they draw between two outside views of Christianity. I think your other points are good.
I actually never claimed a large group of unitarians converted to Islam--that was written by a Muslim. I just pointed out it is easier from the unitarian position, but then again anyone can convert.
As for people like Dr. Juedes--I agree with your statement--my point exactly on another thread.
To each his own. Don't be sorry.
WaySider,
That one stung a bit, but in truth you have a valid observation. Islam is a lifestyle--but, you know as well as I that Christianity is too. However, given the Ted Haggards--VP -- Swaggart--Bakker--et al. Not a debate I am likely to win.
I would just point you to a more loving and active body of believers--my best bet would be out of the US though.
Cynic,
Where have you been?? Don't stay away so long.
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rhino
It is funny .. but to me, much of this theological name calling ... trans gender religion hooky pookism talk strikes me a lot like "who would win ... Superman ... or the Hulk?"
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GarthP2000
Oh I _know_ the answer to that question.
The Hulk, without a doubt!
:B)
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