I guess this is a bit off topic, but I found this on a Muslim forum and found it really interesting. . . . . .
Just thought it was fascinating! Didn't copy and paste it all. They seem to have an interesting take on the whole topic.
:) :)
What seems clear is you have a belief that people that don't believe in the Trinity are confused/damned/antichrist ... whatever.
Now you are bringing in some Muslim forum baseless post to support your view, or introduce what you seem to consider support for your trinity view.
The smiley faces are overdone ... you are saying Christians that don't believe the trinity are muslims (terrorists?) .. an extreme viewpoint, not supported by much of anything.
It seems to be more grasping at straws than any sort of reasonable discourse.
My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position.
Well I am in a bit of trouble if Allah is in charge--here is another one from Imam Habeeb
Hi,
what is your view on Unitarians like these www.unitarianchristian.net? are they more acceptable than normal Christians and Unitarian Universalists?
thanks
While they declare their belief to be the unity of God and the rejection of the Trinity they also say "If a man is at heart just, then in so far is he God; the safety of God, the immortality of God, the majesty of God do enter into that man with justice." Ralph Waldo Emerson July 15, 1838
They were around a while and outwardly we may call them people of tawheed- who are people of the oriiginal Books and they will recieve salvation. Allah knows the best.
Islam seems to take a more kindly view of unitarians than trinitarians.
Rhino--I just thought it was interesting! Geeeeze lighten up! It was a Muslim site. I promise LOL I have been both ANTI-TRINITY and now accept it as truth--don't really think anything else. I believe it is all. Boy trying to have some fun.
Islam seems to take a more kindly view of unitarians than trinitarians.
Rhino--I just thought it was interesting! Geeeeze lighten up! It was a Muslim site. I promise LOL I have been both ANTI-TRINITY and now accept it as truth--don't really think anything else. I believe it is all. Boy trying to have some fun.
Oh, I am very light, that is why I am replying to lightweight posts like this ... you are having fun comparing non trinitarians to muslims ... :) I get it ... :)
this is a beer post, just so dwbh knows .. I know he cares
cards lost ... cubs win cubs win cubs win ... 100 years ... the stars are aligned for the cubs ... prepare the fatted goat ... edmonds is the judas ... it all fits like a hand in a ball glove ... mstar has prophesied ...
I think I'll pass. I have seen the compassionate nature on display here.
Thanks for the light heartedness--calling me a liar on what I just posted and deciding my motives for me.
I will spare you the smiley faces
my point was that YOU made a point of what the muslims were comparing. It was your point being made here ...
The other horrific events that you expressed ... I don't know how that relates to doctrine that was being debated ... but that might be a story you could tell ... and should tell?
I've certainly been a proponent of exposing all those that committed those crimes ... or helped with or enabled or looked the other way or did any less than commandeer every available soul to stop the actions of the predator in chief.
I don't really care how many dogs vp had ... some actions had to be stopped ... not intellectualized.
I'm sorry for any of that ... that happened to you ...
my point was that YOU made a point of what the muslims were comparing. It was your point being made here ...
The other horrific events that you expressed ... I don't know how that relates to doctrine that was being debated ... but that might be a story you could tell ... and should tell?
I've certainly been a proponent of exposing all those that committed those crimes ... or helped with or enabled or looked the other way or did any less than commandeer every available soul to stop the actions of the predator in chief.
I don't really care how many dogs vp had ... some actions had to be stopped ... not intellectualized.
I'm sorry for any of that ... that happened to you ...
My point is this Bill. If I can't even post a differing POV without being called a liar--how on earth can I bring forth the most life altering and shattering events of my past in TWI.
I wasn't trying to hurt anyone with my post but I found it so interesting. I wanted to share it.
If I can't share this--I am surely NOT going to share my story--and I have a winner of a TWI experience. I had a child with CF--just imagine for a moment if you will.
Geisha
PS For the record--I never said you were condemned to hell or whatever if you didn't believe the trinity--those words have been said for me several times now. I said it mattered. I simply pointed out it mattered. At best we were carnal Christians in TWI. The heart on display in TWI was stoney cold. Mine included. We served our own selves and MOCKED others. The heart I see on display with other Christians who believe the trinity--well, the difference is huge. I really believe it matters, but never said for hell.
I don't think that many were truly born-again--I wasn't--I was the same girl TRYING real hard to be what TWI said I should be. Jesus who?
My point is this Bill. If I can't even post a differing POV without being called a liar--how on earth can I bring forth the most life altering and shattering events of my past in TWI.
I wasn't trying to hurt anyone with my post but I found it so interesting. I wanted to share it.
If I can't share this--I am surely NOT going to share my story--and I have a winner of a TWI experience. I had a child with CF--just imagine for a moment if you will.
You are firm in your trinity belief ... I had an uncle and his fam that hurt everyone , despite his most sincere intention that anyone that did not believe exactly as he did was going to heelll. In the end even his Bob Jones grad kids were lost causes ... not of the correct Baptist way ... it was sad ...
Comparing a Christian to a muslim ... it may well be you are just trying to help them see the light ... as my uncle tried. Even his wife .. he was not sure she was heaven bound ... I brought them tomatoes and melons ... I'm not a guru .. but can see what doctrinal obstinance can do.
And I don't know where you would feel safe telling your story or if you need to ... and I can't help with your child. I really CAN'T imagine.
One more time--It was Muslims comparing--very interesting to me. I pointed it out.
Wow--I believe something and post it and I am a mean old farm uncle. How do you survive in a multicultural diverse nation like this?
The JW's make it through when they show up at my door.
But, we have grown right? We sure could dish it out to the trinitarians--let one lone little girl voice a differing position, say it matters and she is a mean old farm uncle.
But then again--Pastor Juedes was too much right? The sweetest guy around, faithful in prayer for YEARS for us. He is too much. How many here have been that faithful to ANYTHING in prayer.
Shows the disparity and my posts differ and that just irritates you enough to compare me to a mean old farm uncle.
What's the matter get tired of picking on DWBH?
BTW--I found solace in God after I recognized who He is and what it all really means--you want to know what gave me comfort? Jesus who is God.
Yah, Penworks - I recommend Armstrong regularly and highly. Very readable, and able to pull together major historical and religious information and background into a fairly easy read, for me anyway.
It's not easy to go digging into the history of Christianity and the development of it's sects and strains, although I enjoy it. Christianity is my faith, and through some fairly regular and at times rigorous effort I've been able to develop a simple personal view of it and an understanding that is, I believe, connected to tradition while having individual meaning to me.
I can't weigh on too heavily on the "Trinity" discussion, although I do agree that the important issue is in who Jesus Christ was and is, and less on who Jesus Christ is not and was not. Be He the Son of God, that has meaning, definition and substance.
I won't even suggest I'm an expert or authority but I've read a great deal and given my own reflection to Jesus Christ historically, including the bible which I believe represents a historical view of it's own that's been wrangled with by many for many years, written by or for those who had at one time a reason for their beliefs, tangible and based on experience. There's an essence to it that rings true to me and that speaks to me. That it speaks different ways to different people in different times is no surprise, and it will probably always be so. The Big Picture comes slowly into focus over time and actually may require more than one person at one time to see "it".
But, we have grown right? We sure could dish it out to the trinitarians--let one lone little girl voice a differing position, say it matters and she is a mean old farm uncle.
But then again--Pastor Juedes was too much right? The sweetest guy around, faithful in prayer for YEARS for us. He is too much. How many here have been that faithful to ANYTHING in prayer.
Shows the disparity and my posts differ and that just irritates you enough to compare me to a mean old farm uncle.
What's the matter get tired of picking on DWBH?
My uncle was NOT mean .. he was compassionate .. a true believer. He was happy to spend time with me. He knew my Way history ... but he felt he had to help people avoid the fires of heell.
Juedes ... Sweet? He doesn't know me, yet made a blanket judgment that I only thought that I thought .. that I completely believed everything vp said. That is totally false ... not so sweet. But like my uncle .. he is probably certain he is right ....
Juedes is faithful in prayer? How does anyone know how faithful he or anyone have been in prayer?
I'm not tired of picking on dwbh ... where is he anyway? I never picked on dwbh, I disagreed ... he is quite capable to disagree without getting bent, isn't he?
Now I'll get blamed for picking on you ... I'm not .. you posted some serious issues ... tell that story if you want, why else bring it up? ... my uncle died with his Bob Jones kids not talking to him ... and his wife maybe not meeting him in heaven ... in his mind. I was talking to him and helping him throughout ... my message is that strict adherence to doctrine can divide more than unite.
geisha, I enjoyed your copy-and-paste about the muslim POV. I share your interest, and your surprise that "muslim" is automatically re-titled "terrorist."
I believe "the Prophet" was in error, but I admire the One-God stand he took, and I have personally known muslims who worship the same God I do, though they are confused by the "Prophet's" misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus. That said, I must confess that God visited fallen man, the earth, in the Person of his son.
geisha, I enjoyed your copy-and-paste about the muslim POV. I share your interest, and your surprise that "muslim" is automatically re-titled "terrorist."
Comparing non trinitarians to muslims has a definite negative connotation ... I can't think of any Christians that feel they are muslim like just because they don't confess to trinitarian belief. It is patently absurd ...
In today's world ... the muslim faith's belief of bringing the chirstian into submission ... is in the more extreme forms related to the terrorist.
So I asked ... if you are saying non trinitarians are muslim like, are they the more extreme types ... terrorists?
It is just one more step, and it was a question, not a re-titling.
Is it really a surprise? What was the thrust of the initial comparison?
And how does it relate to The Way, It Was? Except for the non trinitarian view that was just discussed.
Should I find a thread comparing trinitarians to three headed purple people eaters? Just for fun?
Unitarian in the discussion of the present topic is referring to those (especially Christians) who do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity. Unitarian in what you're mentioning (I think) is referring to the modern day Unitarian-Universalism, which actually don't really seem to believe in much of anything beyond their conception of humanism (they aren't specifically Christian, though individual members may self-identify as such).
To be a UUer, you don't even need to believe in God, or, you might believe in several. It's a catch all type church that wants to appeal to everybody, exclude nobody, but in the end don't really represent much of anything in terms of actual religious belief. It tends to appeal to the more liberal, leftist (or conversely, libertarian) type folks, those who don't want to commit to a dogma or the discipline of a real religious belief, but still want the "feel-good" happiness and semblance of structure going to a church on Sundays might seem to provide.
As a Unitarian-leaning-kinda-guy, I can tell you that there is a VERY distinct difference between:
As a Unitarian-leaning-kinda-guy, I can tell you that there is a VERY distinct difference between:
BIBLICAL unitarian and UNIVERSALIST unitarian. :)
Hi
Thanks so much for the link. Yeah I caught that at the end--I added it because it made sense to make the distinction. I think that was refering to the last post--the others were just Unitarians.
What I found so interesting is that Muslims can relate to that perspective much better than trinitarian.
I think that is because they are monotheistic--staunchly monotheistic--it is a big part of their faith. They see a similarity in Unitarians--so kinda lump them in too. In fact--unitarian Christians are safe according to Islam, as they will receive salvation--they are people of the book. Jews were considered people of the book as well--because of monotheism. I don't think that is still true--or it is different with different sects. Islam and Judaism did live peacefully together from time to time throughout history.
Christians who believe in the trinity are not saved according to Islam. Their arguments are very similar to ours were in TWI--One God--Idolatry--etc. . . .
I believe in One God. Three persons--I guess that doesn't count! LOL
I know many Muslims--they are gentle kind people for the most part. So hospitable and they will give so willingly. Very family orientated. One of my good friends was married to a Muslim Doctor in our area. He spoke at our church about Islam. She came to bible study with me a few weeks ago and corrected some lingering misunderstandings about Islam. Her children are Muslim.
She never converted.
Anyway--I am not as clear on the difference anymore about Universal--and unitarian--but I know there is a big one.
Thanks so much for the link. Yeah I caught that at the end--I added it because it made sense to make the distinction. I think that was refering to the last post--the others were just Unitarians.
What I found so interesting is that Muslims can relate to that perspective much better than trinitarian.
I think that is because they are monotheistic--staunchly monotheistic--it is a big part of their faith. They see a similarity in Unitarians--so kinda lump them in too. In fact--unitarian Christians are safe according to Islam, as they will receive salvation--they are people of the book. Jews were considered people of the book as well--because of monotheism. I don't think that is still true--or it is different with different sects. Islam and Judaism did live peacefully together from time to time throughout history.
Christians who believe in the trinity are not saved according to Islam. Their arguments are very similar to ours were in TWI--One God--Idolatry--etc. . . .
I believe in One God. Three persons--I guess that doesn't count! LOL
Anyway--I am not as clear on the difference anymore about Universal--and unitarian--but I know there is a big one.
Thanks again for the link
Hey hi! How are ya?? Thanks for the reply. :) For what it's worth ---- I was raised Catholic,
and the three-in-one thing was taught to me early on as a part of the church doctrine.
These days I don't believe that anymore, but I don't condemn those who do.
Interesting that you mention believing in God --- as in 3 persons in one.
That makes it multiple, no matter how you slice the pie, but (not arguing), that's my imo.
Seems to be the take the Muslim folks have on it too. If it's ONE, then there can be NO individual parts.
Anyway --- I guess I got sidetracked here. Wanted to tell you about Universalist, versus Biblical Unitarian.
You are right about Universalist. They are Much MORE the *NATURE LOVING* folks who think that:
The Earth Is Our Mother kinda thing. Ask them about the bible, and they haven't a clue.
Biblical unitarians (on the other hand), are unitarian because that's what they see in the bible,
and couldn't care less about the *Earth as our Mother*. Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't.
Speaking of John Lynn, I mean The Way, I mean - what's this thread about - ???
I did come up with something to contribute on the Trinity stuff - the PFAL platform of it being illogical.
One thing that wasn't solid in the PFAL presentation was the argument that the "math" doesn't work, the
"1 + 1 + 1 = 1" conundrum that the "Trinity Classic" was presented as.
Per PFAL "spiritual law" and principle, "truth", always supercedes or trumps "physical law" or fact.
I was say that the nature of God is a "spiritual" truth and reality. Thus, the laws of mathematics don't have to be applied to God in order for my understanding to "make sense" to me, if they don't "work". Physical fact doesn't define spiritual truth, although it may corroborate it and be a product of it. This is a basic premise of understanding the bible accurately, in PFAL.
So there could be a great deal about God that requires the human mind to accept it "as is", on the basis of it being "true" and not on the basis of it being "logical" by human analysis. In fact even further PFAL teaches that learning and knowing what the bible says is required to correctly balance our 5 senses grasp and understanding of anything and everything be it spiritual or physical.
Clearly, the Addition method of defining the Trinity from PFAL doesn't work.
1 Apple
1 Orange
1 Banana
Equals 1 basket (albeit small) of "Fruit".
1 cluster of grapes
Equals many individual grapes, all the same thing - "grapes" but all different.
Or maybe more appropos:
1 Cucumber
1 Lettuce
1 Tomato
Equals 1 basket of "Vegetables"
Although everyone knows that a tomato is technically a "fruit" because it's the fruit of a tomato plan it's referred to as a fruit and a veggie, depending on how it's used. But nearly everyone that uses a tomato as a cooking ingredient would include it in a list of vegetables to buy at the market.
Applying that kind of "logic" to a "spiritual" context would lead to all kinds of possibilities. The body of Christ is referred to as "One Body", yet it has a Head and many members all of which make "One Body" of Christ, yet the title of "Body" implies something different than the individual parts in the same way an intestine isn't a "body" but is required to have one, or at least one like we have. In the Body of Christ, God fills all, and is in all, through Christ.
The relationship of all of the components isn't linear or clearly understood by separating out the individual parts, lining them up and out and looking at them - it's only understood when we view the whole. Or at least known as a way to view it, if not actually understood.
While I personally don't accept the entire tradition of a "Trinity" where Jesus Christ is actually "God", I don't think that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is easily understood when reduced to a simplistic statement like "He was a perfect man". By the same token I don't think I can say that God "is" Jesus Christ and leave it at that.
Jesus Christ is quoted as saying "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father". I think when considering the nature of God and Jesus Christ having a purpose of "the Way, truth and life", to reveal God clearly to mankind, that statement can make "sense" if taken on face value.
This is an interesting thread but has gone so far off topic that it really deserves to be a standalone from say page 14. Moderators??
Geisha, I hear what you say about outsiders looking in at Christians. However can they be expected to make sense of a doctrine that doesn't make sense - to Christians?
An Indian man I knew who had converted to Christianity had a strong Christian outreach with Navigators but always, as long as I knew him, had difficulties with the trinity. He now professes to have converted to becoming a Jew, because they believe in one God.
Muslim =/= terrorist.
Some claiming to be Muslims are terrorists. Some claiming to be Christians are also terrorists. May their God(s) have mercy on them.
Some claiming to be Muslims are terrorists. Some claiming to be Christians are also terrorists. May their God(s) have mercy on them.
Mohammad was a terrorist ... he ruled and converted with the sword.
Jesus was not a terrorist ... he said he who is without sin, cast the first stone. To this day, women caught in adultery in Islam are still stoned.
The issue went back to various Christian beliefs ... various statements here indicate the non-Trinitarian belief as only possible if people are somehow confused or not spiritual. The first "attack" was from apparent Trinitarian Juedes, quoted by Pawtucket.
Juedes indicated all in the Way only believed JCING because they could not think for themselves and were totally blind, believing everything VP said because they all believed he was MOGFOT.
Geisha introduced the Muslim view which she found interesting, that non trinitarians were maybe more Muslim than Christian.
I did introduce the idea of Trinity beliefs being arrived at from traditional indoctrination, and that one reason for the Trinity mentality being introduced (in the third century?) was the convenience of winning over pagans.
But I don't say Trinitarians don't think for themselves ... and I don't say they ARE pagan like for belieiving in the trinity. It was those type "attacks" (on JCING types) that I was taking exception to, though I am really in neither camp.
Juedes was apparently attacking Lynn for claiming the TWI teaching was so great, while not even quoting from JCING in his own book. In a little bit of fairness to Lynn, he was indicating all these ideas we were introduced to were not available (as a package) anywhere else. I'm not sure he claimed VP was any kind of scholar.
Of course Lynn's "as it had not been known since the first century" statement seems rather odd to most all of us, especially us that see VP as more fraudster than "MOGster".
Mohammad was a terrorist ... he ruled and converted with the sword.
Jesus was not a terrorist ... he said he who is without sin, cast the first stone. To this day, women caught in adultery in Islam are still stoned.
Rhino, Jesus was not a Christian, either, he was Jewish. His followers became Christians - called themselves Christian and many of them did rule and convert by the sword, also.
Rhino, Jesus was not a Christian, either, he was Jewish. His followers became Christians - called themselves Christian and many of them did rule and convert by the sword, also.
I'm not sure Jesus was really Jewish either. Certainly he was raised that way, but I was raised Catholic as well. I don't know that it defines one how they were raised. While he did honor many traditions, he also spoke out on many as well. I see him as more transitional. Certainly the Jewish leaders of the time did not see him as a follower, and I think they were right he wasn't. He brought a message of change to the Jewish people one that many did not embrace.
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rhino
What seems clear is you have a belief that people that don't believe in the Trinity are confused/damned/antichrist ... whatever.
Now you are bringing in some Muslim forum baseless post to support your view, or introduce what you seem to consider support for your trinity view.
The smiley faces are overdone ... you are saying Christians that don't believe the trinity are muslims (terrorists?) .. an extreme viewpoint, not supported by much of anything.
It seems to be more grasping at straws than any sort of reasonable discourse.
My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position.
:) :) :)
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geisha779
Well I am in a bit of trouble if Allah is in charge--here is another one from Imam Habeeb
Hi,
what is your view on Unitarians like these www.unitarianchristian.net? are they more acceptable than normal Christians and Unitarian Universalists?
thanks
While they declare their belief to be the unity of God and the rejection of the Trinity they also say "If a man is at heart just, then in so far is he God; the safety of God, the immortality of God, the majesty of God do enter into that man with justice." Ralph Waldo Emerson July 15, 1838
They were around a while and outwardly we may call them people of tawheed- who are people of the oriiginal Books and they will recieve salvation. Allah knows the best.
Islam seems to take a more kindly view of unitarians than trinitarians.
Rhino--I just thought it was interesting! Geeeeze lighten up! It was a Muslim site. I promise LOL I have been both ANTI-TRINITY and now accept it as truth--don't really think anything else. I believe it is all. Boy trying to have some fun.
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Abigail
. . . .
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rhino
Oh, I am very light, that is why I am replying to lightweight posts like this ... you are having fun comparing non trinitarians to muslims ... :) I get it ... :)
this is a beer post, just so dwbh knows .. I know he cares
cards lost ... cubs win cubs win cubs win ... 100 years ... the stars are aligned for the cubs ... prepare the fatted goat ... edmonds is the judas ... it all fits like a hand in a ball glove ... mstar has prophesied ...
Two Boots for Sister Sarah
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geisha779
Go Sox--Red Sox Nation Baby!
I think I'll pass. I have seen the compassionate nature on display here.
Thanks for the light heartedness--calling me a liar on what I just posted and deciding my motives for me.
I will spare you the smiley faces
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rhino
my point was that YOU made a point of what the muslims were comparing. It was your point being made here ...
The other horrific events that you expressed ... I don't know how that relates to doctrine that was being debated ... but that might be a story you could tell ... and should tell?
I've certainly been a proponent of exposing all those that committed those crimes ... or helped with or enabled or looked the other way or did any less than commandeer every available soul to stop the actions of the predator in chief.
I don't really care how many dogs vp had ... some actions had to be stopped ... not intellectualized.
I'm sorry for any of that ... that happened to you ...
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geisha779
My point is this Bill. If I can't even post a differing POV without being called a liar--how on earth can I bring forth the most life altering and shattering events of my past in TWI.
I wasn't trying to hurt anyone with my post but I found it so interesting. I wanted to share it.
If I can't share this--I am surely NOT going to share my story--and I have a winner of a TWI experience. I had a child with CF--just imagine for a moment if you will.
Geisha
PS For the record--I never said you were condemned to hell or whatever if you didn't believe the trinity--those words have been said for me several times now. I said it mattered. I simply pointed out it mattered. At best we were carnal Christians in TWI. The heart on display in TWI was stoney cold. Mine included. We served our own selves and MOCKED others. The heart I see on display with other Christians who believe the trinity--well, the difference is huge. I really believe it matters, but never said for hell.
I don't think that many were truly born-again--I wasn't--I was the same girl TRYING real hard to be what TWI said I should be. Jesus who?
End of topic for me -- I have had it.
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rhino
You are firm in your trinity belief ... I had an uncle and his fam that hurt everyone , despite his most sincere intention that anyone that did not believe exactly as he did was going to heelll. In the end even his Bob Jones grad kids were lost causes ... not of the correct Baptist way ... it was sad ...
Comparing a Christian to a muslim ... it may well be you are just trying to help them see the light ... as my uncle tried. Even his wife .. he was not sure she was heaven bound ... I brought them tomatoes and melons ... I'm not a guru .. but can see what doctrinal obstinance can do.
And I don't know where you would feel safe telling your story or if you need to ... and I can't help with your child. I really CAN'T imagine.
I hope you find some solace somewhere.
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geisha779
One more time--It was Muslims comparing--very interesting to me. I pointed it out.
Wow--I believe something and post it and I am a mean old farm uncle. How do you survive in a multicultural diverse nation like this?
The JW's make it through when they show up at my door.
But, we have grown right? We sure could dish it out to the trinitarians--let one lone little girl voice a differing position, say it matters and she is a mean old farm uncle.
But then again--Pastor Juedes was too much right? The sweetest guy around, faithful in prayer for YEARS for us. He is too much. How many here have been that faithful to ANYTHING in prayer.
Shows the disparity and my posts differ and that just irritates you enough to compare me to a mean old farm uncle.
What's the matter get tired of picking on DWBH?
BTW--I found solace in God after I recognized who He is and what it all really means--you want to know what gave me comfort? Jesus who is God.
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socks
Yah, Penworks - I recommend Armstrong regularly and highly. Very readable, and able to pull together major historical and religious information and background into a fairly easy read, for me anyway.
It's not easy to go digging into the history of Christianity and the development of it's sects and strains, although I enjoy it. Christianity is my faith, and through some fairly regular and at times rigorous effort I've been able to develop a simple personal view of it and an understanding that is, I believe, connected to tradition while having individual meaning to me.
I can't weigh on too heavily on the "Trinity" discussion, although I do agree that the important issue is in who Jesus Christ was and is, and less on who Jesus Christ is not and was not. Be He the Son of God, that has meaning, definition and substance.
I won't even suggest I'm an expert or authority but I've read a great deal and given my own reflection to Jesus Christ historically, including the bible which I believe represents a historical view of it's own that's been wrangled with by many for many years, written by or for those who had at one time a reason for their beliefs, tangible and based on experience. There's an essence to it that rings true to me and that speaks to me. That it speaks different ways to different people in different times is no surprise, and it will probably always be so. The Big Picture comes slowly into focus over time and actually may require more than one person at one time to see "it".
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rhino
My uncle was NOT mean .. he was compassionate .. a true believer. He was happy to spend time with me. He knew my Way history ... but he felt he had to help people avoid the fires of heell.
Juedes ... Sweet? He doesn't know me, yet made a blanket judgment that I only thought that I thought .. that I completely believed everything vp said. That is totally false ... not so sweet. But like my uncle .. he is probably certain he is right ....
Juedes is faithful in prayer? How does anyone know how faithful he or anyone have been in prayer?
I'm not tired of picking on dwbh ... where is he anyway? I never picked on dwbh, I disagreed ... he is quite capable to disagree without getting bent, isn't he?
Now I'll get blamed for picking on you ... I'm not .. you posted some serious issues ... tell that story if you want, why else bring it up? ... my uncle died with his Bob Jones kids not talking to him ... and his wife maybe not meeting him in heaven ... in his mind. I was talking to him and helping him throughout ... my message is that strict adherence to doctrine can divide more than unite.
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geisha779
The site is called Shiachat.com
The name of the thread is: Are Unitarian Christians Technically Muslims?
I would post a link if I knew how--gotta learn that.
The thought of terrorist never entered my mind--I just got that.
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dmiller
Here's a link for you, geisha.
Shia Chat
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anotherDan
geisha, I enjoyed your copy-and-paste about the muslim POV. I share your interest, and your surprise that "muslim" is automatically re-titled "terrorist."
I believe "the Prophet" was in error, but I admire the One-God stand he took, and I have personally known muslims who worship the same God I do, though they are confused by the "Prophet's" misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus. That said, I must confess that God visited fallen man, the earth, in the Person of his son.
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Tzaia
Congregational Churches were historically Unitarian as understood in the context of the Unitarian USA group (not the universalists)
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rhino
Comparing non trinitarians to muslims has a definite negative connotation ... I can't think of any Christians that feel they are muslim like just because they don't confess to trinitarian belief. It is patently absurd ...
In today's world ... the muslim faith's belief of bringing the chirstian into submission ... is in the more extreme forms related to the terrorist.
So I asked ... if you are saying non trinitarians are muslim like, are they the more extreme types ... terrorists?
It is just one more step, and it was a question, not a re-titling.
Is it really a surprise? What was the thrust of the initial comparison?
And how does it relate to The Way, It Was? Except for the non trinitarian view that was just discussed.
Should I find a thread comparing trinitarians to three headed purple people eaters? Just for fun?
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dmiller
As a Unitarian-leaning-kinda-guy, I can tell you that there is a VERY distinct difference between:
BIBLICAL unitarian and UNIVERSALIST unitarian. :)
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geisha779
Hi
Thanks so much for the link. Yeah I caught that at the end--I added it because it made sense to make the distinction. I think that was refering to the last post--the others were just Unitarians.
What I found so interesting is that Muslims can relate to that perspective much better than trinitarian.
I think that is because they are monotheistic--staunchly monotheistic--it is a big part of their faith. They see a similarity in Unitarians--so kinda lump them in too. In fact--unitarian Christians are safe according to Islam, as they will receive salvation--they are people of the book. Jews were considered people of the book as well--because of monotheism. I don't think that is still true--or it is different with different sects. Islam and Judaism did live peacefully together from time to time throughout history.
Christians who believe in the trinity are not saved according to Islam. Their arguments are very similar to ours were in TWI--One God--Idolatry--etc. . . .
I believe in One God. Three persons--I guess that doesn't count! LOL
I know many Muslims--they are gentle kind people for the most part. So hospitable and they will give so willingly. Very family orientated. One of my good friends was married to a Muslim Doctor in our area. He spoke at our church about Islam. She came to bible study with me a few weeks ago and corrected some lingering misunderstandings about Islam. Her children are Muslim.
She never converted.
Anyway--I am not as clear on the difference anymore about Universal--and unitarian--but I know there is a big one.
Thanks again for the link
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dmiller
Hey hi! How are ya?? Thanks for the reply. :) For what it's worth ---- I was raised Catholic,
and the three-in-one thing was taught to me early on as a part of the church doctrine.
These days I don't believe that anymore, but I don't condemn those who do.
Interesting that you mention believing in God --- as in 3 persons in one.
That makes it multiple, no matter how you slice the pie, but (not arguing), that's my imo.
Seems to be the take the Muslim folks have on it too. If it's ONE, then there can be NO individual parts.
Anyway --- I guess I got sidetracked here. Wanted to tell you about Universalist, versus Biblical Unitarian.
You are right about Universalist. They are Much MORE the *NATURE LOVING* folks who think that:
The Earth Is Our Mother kinda thing. Ask them about the bible, and they haven't a clue.
Biblical unitarians (on the other hand), are unitarian because that's what they see in the bible,
and couldn't care less about the *Earth as our Mother*. Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't.
Hope it does help. :)
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socks
Speaking of John Lynn, I mean The Way, I mean - what's this thread about - ???
I did come up with something to contribute on the Trinity stuff - the PFAL platform of it being illogical.
One thing that wasn't solid in the PFAL presentation was the argument that the "math" doesn't work, the
"1 + 1 + 1 = 1" conundrum that the "Trinity Classic" was presented as.
Per PFAL "spiritual law" and principle, "truth", always supercedes or trumps "physical law" or fact.
I was say that the nature of God is a "spiritual" truth and reality. Thus, the laws of mathematics don't have to be applied to God in order for my understanding to "make sense" to me, if they don't "work". Physical fact doesn't define spiritual truth, although it may corroborate it and be a product of it. This is a basic premise of understanding the bible accurately, in PFAL.
So there could be a great deal about God that requires the human mind to accept it "as is", on the basis of it being "true" and not on the basis of it being "logical" by human analysis. In fact even further PFAL teaches that learning and knowing what the bible says is required to correctly balance our 5 senses grasp and understanding of anything and everything be it spiritual or physical.
Clearly, the Addition method of defining the Trinity from PFAL doesn't work.
1 Apple
1 Orange
1 Banana
Equals 1 basket (albeit small) of "Fruit".
1 cluster of grapes
Equals many individual grapes, all the same thing - "grapes" but all different.
Or maybe more appropos:
1 Cucumber
1 Lettuce
1 Tomato
Equals 1 basket of "Vegetables"
Although everyone knows that a tomato is technically a "fruit" because it's the fruit of a tomato plan it's referred to as a fruit and a veggie, depending on how it's used. But nearly everyone that uses a tomato as a cooking ingredient would include it in a list of vegetables to buy at the market.
Applying that kind of "logic" to a "spiritual" context would lead to all kinds of possibilities. The body of Christ is referred to as "One Body", yet it has a Head and many members all of which make "One Body" of Christ, yet the title of "Body" implies something different than the individual parts in the same way an intestine isn't a "body" but is required to have one, or at least one like we have. In the Body of Christ, God fills all, and is in all, through Christ.
The relationship of all of the components isn't linear or clearly understood by separating out the individual parts, lining them up and out and looking at them - it's only understood when we view the whole. Or at least known as a way to view it, if not actually understood.
While I personally don't accept the entire tradition of a "Trinity" where Jesus Christ is actually "God", I don't think that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is easily understood when reduced to a simplistic statement like "He was a perfect man". By the same token I don't think I can say that God "is" Jesus Christ and leave it at that.
Jesus Christ is quoted as saying "when you've seen me, you've seen the Father". I think when considering the nature of God and Jesus Christ having a purpose of "the Way, truth and life", to reveal God clearly to mankind, that statement can make "sense" if taken on face value.
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Twinky
This is an interesting thread but has gone so far off topic that it really deserves to be a standalone from say page 14. Moderators??
Geisha, I hear what you say about outsiders looking in at Christians. However can they be expected to make sense of a doctrine that doesn't make sense - to Christians?
An Indian man I knew who had converted to Christianity had a strong Christian outreach with Navigators but always, as long as I knew him, had difficulties with the trinity. He now professes to have converted to becoming a Jew, because they believe in one God.
Muslim =/= terrorist.
Some claiming to be Muslims are terrorists. Some claiming to be Christians are also terrorists. May their God(s) have mercy on them.
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rhino
Mohammad was a terrorist ... he ruled and converted with the sword.
Jesus was not a terrorist ... he said he who is without sin, cast the first stone. To this day, women caught in adultery in Islam are still stoned.
The issue went back to various Christian beliefs ... various statements here indicate the non-Trinitarian belief as only possible if people are somehow confused or not spiritual. The first "attack" was from apparent Trinitarian Juedes, quoted by Pawtucket.
Juedes indicated all in the Way only believed JCING because they could not think for themselves and were totally blind, believing everything VP said because they all believed he was MOGFOT.
Geisha introduced the Muslim view which she found interesting, that non trinitarians were maybe more Muslim than Christian.
I did introduce the idea of Trinity beliefs being arrived at from traditional indoctrination, and that one reason for the Trinity mentality being introduced (in the third century?) was the convenience of winning over pagans.
But I don't say Trinitarians don't think for themselves ... and I don't say they ARE pagan like for belieiving in the trinity. It was those type "attacks" (on JCING types) that I was taking exception to, though I am really in neither camp.
Juedes was apparently attacking Lynn for claiming the TWI teaching was so great, while not even quoting from JCING in his own book. In a little bit of fairness to Lynn, he was indicating all these ideas we were introduced to were not available (as a package) anywhere else. I'm not sure he claimed VP was any kind of scholar.
Of course Lynn's "as it had not been known since the first century" statement seems rather odd to most all of us, especially us that see VP as more fraudster than "MOGster".
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Abigail
Rhino, Jesus was not a Christian, either, he was Jewish. His followers became Christians - called themselves Christian and many of them did rule and convert by the sword, also.
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WhiteDove
I'm not sure Jesus was really Jewish either. Certainly he was raised that way, but I was raised Catholic as well. I don't know that it defines one how they were raised. While he did honor many traditions, he also spoke out on many as well. I see him as more transitional. Certainly the Jewish leaders of the time did not see him as a follower, and I think they were right he wasn't. He brought a message of change to the Jewish people one that many did not embrace.
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