Why would it be meaningless? Those of us who don't view the bible as "authoritative" still have opinions about it. While I no longer have a "belief", or "faith" about Jesus and his nature, I certainly have an opinion about what the bible says and how much sense Wierwille made in understanding it.
My bad Oakspear! Sorry. It does have some meaning to everyone. I stand corrected -- all are welcome here to view their own opinion.
Just a quick note here - sorry if it is outside the context of the discussion, but you prove a negative by disproving its positive. That is the principle VP was using when he said that if Jesus is not God anywhere in the Word, he is not God everywhere in the Word.
My understanding of who Jesus Christ is has grown, and is growing, into something that is amazing, extraordinary, and exquisite in every regard. Jesus asked whom do you think I am, and Peter answered the son of God. Jesus said the Father had shown him that. If the Father had to show Peter that when he had the man right in front of him, how is it that years later a bunch of guys get together, discuss it, and decide who Jesus - not only that, but who God is & come up with the Trinity? I think that whole process is patently fallacious. People can't DEFINE GOD.
Perhaps that is a point aside for a different discussion, but there are too many points where Jesus doesn't equal God for me to seriously consider that he is God, Trinitarian rationals notwithstanding. Then I would no longer be studying the Word, I'd be studying Trinitarian philosophy - or "theology" if you insist. But I'd be studying what men tell me God is.
Without that limitation, I'm free to let the Word and the comforter teach me without getting sidetracked. And, as I said, the teaching has been extraordinary. I think VP's treatment of who Jesus Christ is - well, it broke the mold which is good, but ultimately the character of Jesus winds up being relatively (in juxtaposition to the truth) very flat and VP's teaching antichrist - the nature of which blinds the eyes.
So we have a flat Jesus on one hand and the Trinity on the other, and the bread of life lies on table in plain view, yet unseen and uneaten. I'm by no means discounting the real relationships that people - on either side of the discussion - have with the Lord. I know my words may be taken as egotistical, but I believe its the truth.
I agree with you that the Trinity doesn't make sense. However, as Geisha779 pointed out, your arguments don't work because they start with a wrong definition of the Trinity. Any arguments that involve differences between the Father and the Son don't disprove the Trinity, because as Trinitarians will tell you, there are differences between the Father and the Son. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. However, according to the definition, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is but one God, who exists in three persons.
The Scriptural argument I would offer to that definition is that Jesus declared that "the Father" is the "only true God":
John 17:
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Paul likewise declared that there was one God, the Father; and one lord, Jesus Christ, the man who is the mediator between God and man.
I Corinthians 8:
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
In addition there are specific differences between God and His Son:
God cannot die (I Timothy 6:16), but Jesus died.
God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Jesus was tempted in all things, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15).
God is omniscient, i.e. He knows all things (I John 3:20), but Jesus said there were things that he did not know, including when he would return (Mark 13:32).
God is omnipotent, i.e. all powerful, but Jesus said he could do nothing of himself without the Father (John 5:30).
Jesus said that his doctrine was not his own, but His that sent him, and then differentiated between God and himself, emphasizing that he sought God's glory and not his own (John 7:16-18).
Jesus made a distinction between himself and God, saying there is none good but one, that is, God (Mark 10:17-18).
Jesus prayed to God (Luke 6:12). If he were God, he would have been talking to himself.
Jesus was the Lamb of God (John 1:29,36), the perfect sacrifice to God. How could he sacrifice himself to himself? Jesus was the perfect sacrifice to God on behalf of mankind.
Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19; Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; I Peter 3:22). If he were God, how could he sit on his own right hand?
The differences indicated in these verses aren't just differences between the Father and the Son. They are specifically stated as differences between God (as a whole) and Jesus. In addition, there are many clear, unambiguous references to Jesus as the Son of God, compared with only a handful of verses that call him God in a representational sense. And as I said before, it is largely because the early church lost the Hebrew understanding of this concept that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed.
But this I know, after having this discussion as most of us have while in The Way, with a multitude of different folks from all walks of life and religions, that everyone has a different view point. Even those who think they are saying the same, are not.
Case in point.. My parents both say they believe in the Trinity.. If you ask my dad who Christ is, He's God.. One of the three "persons" of the one entity called "God.. The traditional/orthodox (after many revisions and centuries later after the original) belief that is prevalent today. You ask my mom, well, Christ certainly isn't God, he's his son.. ?! Yeah.. Ok.. I try and tell her that's not the "accepted" definition of the trinity, but like all of us, we all have our own viewpoint. The Way's viewpoint typically is what most call Oneness, Trunity, or Sabellianism..
But even in those 3, there are so many different varied viewpoints. And If God cares whether or not "YOU" or anyone else thinks he has 2 feet or no feet or is made of the seven spirits or the three "persons", I think you really put God in a pretty small box.
Just going through all the scriptures people brought up already can be seen clearly and logically from either viewpoint (once one accepts their ultimate maxim). While each persons maxims may be harder to logically understand, I'm sure there's logic to why we believe the maxims we do, proven enough to the each of us.
Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Trinitarian: There's different "persons" of God and while the Father is not Jesus but they both are 100% God. And Stephen was able to see the "persons" of God.
Unitarian: Self explanatory
Oneness: It was the glory of God that Jesus was standing next to..
John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Trinitarian: Again, Jesus is not the Father, but since both Jesus and the Father are God, the same one God, Jesus' words makes since, if you knew him, you'd know the Father.. Not because Jesus and the Father are the same, but that they are the same God.
Unitarian: Jesus was the "image" of God. A reflection of his Father, so if you'd known one, you'd know the other.
Oneness: Jesus and the Father are the same!
John 10:30 I and my Father are one
Trinitarian: They along with the holy spirit are one God! Each 100% the one and same God, but individual "persons".
Unitarian: They are one in unity as Paul and Barnabas are said to be one, and man and wife, one.
Oneness: They are one God! Jesus and the Father are the same, different "persona's" of the same God.
Luke 6:12 "One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God."
Trinitarian: One part of the Trinity communicating to the other members of the Trinity. Same one God, but there is communication between the "persons" in the Godhead, just as there is communication between our body parts.
Unitarian: No explanation needed
Oneness: This is just Jesus showing as an example to pray often. Even though people weren't there, they were aware of his example. People talk to themselves all the time.
Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Trinitarian: When the "person" of Jesus came to earth he let go of his glory, when his flesh died (not the god part of him) his glory returned.
Unitarian: Jesus was not Lord and Christ until God "made" him so.
Oneness: While on this earth, Jesus was both 100% God and 100% man, but the man died, and God made his name while on earth to be revered just as much as his previous names of YHWH and such..
Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.
Trinitarian: This speaks only of the human side of Jesus, not the God side. Jesus has 2 natures you know..
Unitarian: Jesus was God's servant, not God.
Oneness: Same as Trinitarian.
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Trinitarian: This speaks only of the human side of Jesus, not the God side. Jesus has 2 natures you know..
Unitarian: Jesus was able to do mighty works because God "gave" him this ability and was "with" him.
Oneness: Same as Trinitarian.
Romans 15:6 "so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Trinitarian: God is speaking of the "person" of the Father, who is known as Father by name not function to Christ. As known as Jesus's God by economy within the godhead not by position or separation.
Unitarian: Jesus has a God and Father..
Oneness: Speaking of the human side of Jesus.
1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Trinitarian: God is speaking of the "person" of the Father, who is known as Father by name not function to Christ. As known as Christ's head by economy within the godhead not by position or separation.
Unitarian: Christ's head is God.
Oneness: Speaking of the human side of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Trinitarian: Jesus had 2 natures. God and man.
Unitarian: Even after the resurection, Jesus is still called a man between God and other men.
Oneness: Same as Trinitarian.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
See above
While I'm sure some beliefs are more "logically" sound, none of us can define God completely. And really, it's the relationship between the individual and His creator ultimately.
When Jesus asked. . . who do men say I am . . He didn't set out on a campaign to correct everyone. . . and they called Him a few different things . . . He was concerned with who His disciples said He was. . . . He is the Christ. . . . the Son of the living God. . . six days later. . . Peter saw the transfiguration. He saw who He is . . . pretty big deal.
How do you come up with A single Unitarian response to those verses? As if they are all like TWI's . . . . They are all different. Someone needs to put it in a creed.
"Who do you say I am?" That is trying to define the vast God of the universe or put Him in a box?. . . . Jesus asked the question. He thought it an important enough question.
You can't define God . . . this is why He was manifest in the flesh . . . so you could know Him. He came to reveal Him.
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV
Jehovah's Witnesses- Charles Taze Russell- "There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307) …"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself." (WT 12/15/1984 p29) Michael the archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ.."(New Heavens and New Earth pg.30-31)- Charles Taze Russell-"There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307) …"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself." (WT 12/15/1984 p29) Michael the archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ."(New Heavens and New Earth pg.30-3
Mormonism- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints- "..That Lucifer, the son of the morning, is our elder brother and the brother of Jesus Christ." (Apostle B. McConkie Mormon doctrine p.163-164) "...Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven," (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50-51). Jesus got married at Cana and had many wives Martha, Mary and others he also had many children," (J & D vol.1 345-346 vol.2 79-82 vol.4:259-260 the seer p.172)
The Unification Church (Sun Myung Moon): "It is a great error to think Jesus was God Himself. Jesus is no different from other men."( Young Oon Kin, Divine Principle and its Application (HSA-UWC, 1968), p. 75.) "We must understand that this (John 8.58) also does not signify that Jesus was God Himself .Jesus on earth was a man no different from usexcept for the fact that He was born without original sin." (Divine Principle p. 212).
Christian Science Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy): "Jesus Christ is not God, as Jesus Himself declared, but is the Son of God." (Science and Health Key to the Scriptures p.361). Jesus is the name of the man who, more than all other men, has presented Christ, the true idea of God. . . . Jesus is the human man, and Christ is the divine idea; hence the duality of Jesus the Christ. (Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health and Key to the Scriptures The First Church of Christ Scientist 1934, p. 361.) " he was the first human to understand the Divine Mind." " Jesus means "the highest human corporeal concept of the divine idea. . ." (ibid. p. 589).
Christadelphians (John Thomas). "Jesus Christ did not exist as a person from eternity as one of the triune Godhead.... He did not actually come into being until He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and born in Bethlehem" (Christadelphian messenger no.46 the word made flesh p.3)
Oneness Pentecostals "The Son of God existed from all eternity only as a plan in the mind of God." (The Oneness of God, D. Bernard p.295) "the role of the son is temporary and not eternal" (p.105, 108)""The Son of Godrefers to the humanity of Jesus." (Oneness of God, p.98)
Way International Paul Wierwille taught "We, as well as Jesus Christ, were with God in His foreknowledge, but not in existence, before the world began. Neither did Jesus Christ" (Jesus Christ Is Not God pp. 31-32). that Jesus did not exist except in the mind of God before conception in Mary's womb, and "Jesus Christ the Son of God, was made by God" (Ibid, pp. 103-04).
Christian Spiritual Alliance The Christian Spiritual Alliance (Roy Eugene Davis): "Jesus was not the only begotten." (Roy Eugene Davis, the Hidden teachings of Jesus Revealed 1968, p. 9, emphasis added.
Iglesia Ni Cristo (Felix Manalo) "If there is any verse which people claim proves the alleged deity of Christ, this verse has been wrongly interpreted by the people." (Pasugo 1984 May/june p.14) "Col.1:15 states very clearly, Christ is 'the firstborn of every creature,' and is therefore not the creator."(Pasugo Jan/.Feb 1980 p.37) "The scriptures do not teach that Christ is the creator of all things." (PASUGO, March/April 1982, p. 26.)"We now affirm that Jn.1:1 does not call Jesus Christ God…'It does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity." (God's message July/Sept 1995 p.14)
Unity School of Christianity (Charles Fillmore), "Most of our religious beliefs are based on the [erroneous] idea that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God." Unity (periodical), October, 1976, pp. 59-60.)
Urantia book- Jesus Christ is not identified as being uniquely God the Son, second Person of the Holy Trinity. Instead he is Michael, one of many God the Sons. The Michael of Nebadon is the `only-begotten Son' personalizing this 611,121st universal concept of divinity and infinity," P. 53 In other words, Jesus (Michael) is the Son of the Son of God and the Father in the sense that when these two beings had a simultaneous original thought for the 611,121st time, Jesus (Michael) was begotten. (p.366).Unitarian Universalism: Unitarian Universalist minister Waldemar Argow states: "They [unitarian/Universalists] do not regard him as a supernatural creature, the literal son of God who was miraculously sent to earth as part of an involved plan for the salvation of human souls.', (Waldemar Argow, Unitarian Universalism-Some Questions Answered (pamphlet) (Boston, MA. Unitarian Universalism Assoc., nd.), p. 6.)
Anthroposophy (Rudolph Steiner): "[Jesus] ... must be designated in the truest sense of the word as a 'mere man'.. ( Rudolf Steiner, From Jesus to Christ 1973, pp. 51-52.
Theosophy (Helena. P Blavatsky): "Nowhere throughout the New Testament is Jesus found calling himself God, or anything higher than 'a son of God,' the son of a 'Father,' common to all." Helena Petrovna Blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine (India: Theosophical Publishing House 1971), vol. 5, p. 369n.
Word faith movementJohn Avanzini "Jesus had a nice house, a big house." (Believer's Voice of Victory, (TBN) 1/20/91) "Jesus was handling big money." (Praise the Lord (TBN), 9/15/88)
Kenneth Copeland "The image being that he was a copy, looked just like, if you stood Adam upside God they look just exactly alike...." (The Authority of the Believer IV, Tape #01-0304) "Jesus has a beginning and an end." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303) God is a "spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet." (Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977.) "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell" (Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition (Kenneth Copeland, Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129.)
Benny Hinn '"What was the appearance of God the Father? Like that of a man...God has the likeness of fingers and hands and a face." (Good Morning Holy Spirit, (Benny Hinn, Word, 1991) p. 82) "Have you been begotten? So was He. Don't let anyone deceive you. Jesus was reborn. " (Benny Hinn, Our Position 'In Christ,' Part 1 1991), videotape #TV-254. "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost - three separate individuals, one in essence, one in work - and, may I add, each one of them possesses His own spirit-body. " ("Praise the Lord", 10/23/92)
Hagin speaking of Jesus "his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN'T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He's talking about spiritual death."
A.R.E Association for Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce): "He is an ensample [example] for man, and only as a man, for He lived only as a man, He died as man."( Association for Research and Enlightenment Edgar Cayce, reading no. 900-10 from Circulating file: Jesus the Pattern and You, p. 53.) Edgar Cayce-"Q. `When did the knowledge come to Jesus that he was to be the savior of the world? "A. `When he fell in Eden... In Adam, he brought sin,'" (Psychic Healing, p. 75).
The Bahai Faith (The Bab; Baha'u'llah): "Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour. Firuz Kazemzeden World Order summer 1978 p.39 the national spiritual assembly of the bahai's of the United states) Was Christ within god, or God within Christ ? No in the name of God. " (Abdul Baha Questions p. 97) Many Christians are surprised to find that a new messenger from God has already come, saying that he is the return of Christ." (The Return of Christ p. 4 1978 Bahai publishing trust)
Islam- Sura 43:59 "Jesus was no more than a mortal whom Allah favored and made an example to the Israelites. They are unbelievers who say God is Messiah, Mary's son." Surat al Nisa 4:157-158 "And because of their saying: we slew the messiah Jesus son of Mary. Allahs messenger-they slew him not nor crucified- Sura 43:59
Church Universal and Triumphant-Mark and Elizabeth Prophet "The Christ Self, then, has communication with the Father who in both Principle and Person is the Presence of God, the 1 AM THAT 1 AM, or the 1 AM Presence." (Mysteries of the Holy Grail Arch angel Gabriel p.217)the Prophets explain, "Jesus was both the actual and symbolical representative of this Christ Self. Jesus was the example. the one who self-realized the Christ Mind and was at one with It at all times. Jesus himself was not the only begotten Son of the Father. The Christ of him was and is the only begotten Son of the Father " (The Lost Teachings of Jesus p. 241).
Eckankar (Paul Twitchell): "do not put Him [Jesus] in a special category, for all saviours and prophets who came to earth to help mankind did their part arid passed on to the glory of the heavenly kingdom ..
The Foundation of Human understanding The Foundation of Human understanding (Roy Masters): -you must not have any concepts of what Christ is like or God is like. it all must be an inward revelation process-" (Roy Masters (tape), -The Mystery of Golgotha.
The Gurdjieff Foundation (Gurdfieff): -[in a conversation] ... Gurdjieff said: 'I hate your Jesus, poor Jewish boy'-the emphasis being on' your.'"' (C S. Nott Teachings of Gurdjieff. A Pupil's Journal 1978, p. 103
Course in miracles- (Helen Schucman) "Jesus is a man, who is like all other men, and the Christ idea, which all men possess and must eventually demonstrated. He becomes the pattern for all of us. Jesus the man was used by the Christ to demonstrate the illusion of the world."...Jesus became what all of you must be. ...Is he the Christ? O yes, along with you. ...Is he God's only Helper? No, indeed. For Christ takes many forms with different names..." (pp. 83-84)."The Son of God ... is not Jesus but our combined Christ consciousness. . ."The name Jesus refers to one who was a man but who saw the face of Christ in all his brothers.... So he became identified with Christ, a man no longer at one with God."
The Masons- Manly Hall who started the Masons refers to Jesus as "The Solar Diety' Jesus of Nazareth had attained a level of consciousness, of perfection, that has been called by various names: cosmic consciousness, soul regeneration, philosophic initiation, spiritual illumination, Brahmic Splendor, Christ-consciousness. (Lynn F Perkins, The Meaning of Masonry, CSA Press, 1971, 53)
Lola Davis the New Age "Christ" resides on a different plane of consciousness from that which we experience. There he directs the Masters, "a group of advanced souls, most of them discarnate ... known variously as the White Brotherhood, The Great White Lodge, the Masters of Wisdom, the Hierarchy, and the Angels around the Throne." (Lola Davis toward a world religion for a new age p.186)
Matthew Fox- The Cosmic Christ is the divine pattern that connects in the person of Jesus Christ (but by no means is limited to that person). (The Coming of the Cosmic Christ p.135) Divinity is found in all creatures. The divine name from Exod. 3:14, "1 Am who I Am," is appropriated by Jesus who shows us how to embrace our own divinity. The Cosmic Christ is the "I am" in every creature. (P154)
Babara Marx Hubbard- "Who is this child? This child is the Christ-child within who has emerged victorious, fully born, incarnated as every member of the human race who evolves." "This UNITY OF THE ELECT is the key to the transformation from Adam to Christ, from Homo sapiens to HOMO UNIVERSALIS, from creature to co-creator, from self-centered to whole centered beings."
David and Naomi Rice.... The Christ is within each and everyone of God's creatures. …. . .the Christ is the spark of pure energy of God that has always existed within the individual manifestation of God in in many forms, but has been forgotten. (Messiah and the 2nd coming John David and Naomi Rice 1982 Coptic press Wyoming MI)
David Spangler stated: Christ is the same force as Lucifer...... Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into a New Age ... each of us in some way is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation ... for it is an invitation into the New Age. (David Spangler reflections on the Christ p.44-45)
Tara Center- THE CHRIST IS IN THE WORLD. A great World Teacher for people of every religion and no religion. A practical man with solutions to our problems. He loves ALL humanity... Christ is here, my friends. Your Brother walks among you. (Tara Center, full-page ad in USA Today, January 12, 1987) stated: Christ is the same force as Lucifer...... Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into a New Age ... each of us in some way is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation ... for it is an invitation into the New Age.(David Spangler reflections on the Christ p.44-45)
Tara Center- THE CHRIST IS IN THE WORLD. A great World Teacher for people of every religion and no religion. A practical man with solutions to our problems. He loves ALL humanity... Christ is here, my friends. Your Brother walks among you. (Tara Center, full-page ad in USA Today, January 12, 1987) Benjamen Creme's opinion, -given to him by his master, Lord Maitreya, you and I are not God and Jesus did not claim to be God."The Christ is the Master 'Of all the Masters , but He is not God, and never claimed to be God"
Rosicrucianism (AMORO (H. Spencer Lewis): "Nowhere in the teachings and practices of Jesus can we find the least intimation that His great system was intended to bring salvation to the physical body of man. Even the salvation of the soul was not taught by Jesus, and all references in the Christian Bible to the salvation of the soul constitute a misinterpretation, a misunderstanding, of the secret (Rosicrucianism] principle that Jesus taught.( K Spencer Lewis, The secret Doctrine of Jesus (San Jose, CA-- Supreme Grand Lodge of AMORC), pp. 186-87,189-91.The Son is the highest initiate of the Sun"( The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception). "The Christ spirit which entered the body of Jesus when Jesus Himself vacated it, was a ray from the cosmic Christ. We may follow Jesus back in His previous incarnations and can trace his growth to the present day." (The Rosicrucian Philosophy p. 181)
Science of Mind (Ernest Holmes): "Jesus is the name of a man. Christ means the Universal Principle of Divine Sonship.'(N. Kasturt Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. 8, Ist ed. 1975, p.144.)
Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard): "Neither Lord Buddha nor Jesus Christ were OTs [that is, Operation Thetans, enlightened beings] according to the evidence. They were just a shade above clear [that is, relatively low on the Scientology scale of spiritual advancement." (Ability magazine no. 81 [c. 1959 p. 31.)
Pierre Teilhard De Chardin- If a Christ is to be completely acceptable as an object of worship, he must be presented as the saviour of the Idea and reality of evolution. (P. 78) I believe that the Messiah whom we await, whom we all without any doubt await the universal Christ; that is to say, the Christ of evolution. (P. 96)Christianity and Evolution by
Transcendental Meditation (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi): "[When] Christ said, Be still and know that I am God.'[He also meant) 'Be still and know that you are God."' And, "I don't think Christ ever suffered [on the cross].... Those who count upon the suffering, it is a wrong interpretation of the life of Christ and the message of Christ. It is wrong."105
Lucis Trust (Alice Bailey): -The Incarnation, which is for popular Christianity synonymous with the historical birth and earthly life of Christ, is for the mystic not only this but also a Perpetual cosmic and personal process.- (Alice Bailey, From Bethlehem to Calvary Lucis Trust, 1976, P. 7
Matthew Fox- The Cosmic Christ is the divine pattern that connects in the person of Jesus Christ (but by no means is limited to that person). (The Coming of the Cosmic Christ p.135) Divinity is found in all creatures. The divine name from Exod. 3:14, "1 Am who I Am, "is appropriated by Jesus who shows us how to embrace our own divinity. The Cosmic Christ is the "I am" in every creature. (P154)
Agne Yoga Fellowship Agne Yoga Fellowship (Swami Kriyananda): 'What is Christ? St. Simeon the new theologian wrote, 'I move my hand, and Christ moves, who is my hand." Swami Kriyananda, Eastern Thoughts, Western Thoughts (Nevada City, CA: Ananda Publications, 1975), pp. 67-68.
Self-Realization Fellowship Self-Realization Fellowship (Paramahansa Yogananda): "in Christian Scriptures it [Christ] is called the 'only begotten son'. . .. It is the universal consciousness, oneness with God, manifested by Jesus, Krishna, and other avatars." Paramahansa Yogananda, Man's Eternal Quest (Los Angeles, CA- Self Realization Fellowship, 1975), pp. 470-71; cf., Self Realization (Los Angeles, CA-Self Realization Fellowship), Winter 1979, pp, 340,
Sri Chinmoy Centers (Sri Chinmoy): "To say that Christ is the Savior and the only way to salvation is a mistake. ... He laughs when His followers say He is the only savior.- Sri Chininoy, A Hundred Years from Now (Jamaica, NY. Agni press, 1974), pp, 39-43.
YoganandaYogananda "man reincarnates on earth until he has consciously regained his status as a son of God."
The Divine Life Society Integral Yoga Institute (Sivananda/ Satchidananda): "Remember that Christ is not a person, It's an experience-Christhood. Like Nirvana or Buddha. It's an experience.. . " (Satchinananda speaks p.47-48 June 17, 1975)
Sri Yukteswar said: Theologians have interpreted Christ's words in such passages as "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (Jn. 14:6). Jesus meant, never that he was the sole Son of God, but that no man can attain the unqualified Absolute, the transcendent Father beyond creation, until he has first manifested the 'Son' or activating Christ Consciousness within creation. Jesus, who had achieved entire onenness with that Christ consciousness, identified himself with it inasmuch as his own ego had long since been dissolved.' (Paramahansa Yogananda Autobiography of a Yogi Self Realization fellowship p.178)
3 HO Sikhism 3 HO Sikhism (Yogi Bhajan): Jesus was a man of God only who had to become qualified for hiknow if Joseph was his father and his mother created "her son to really be a Christ," but not a savior. Heads of Truth, Winter, March 1978, p. 20; Spring 1975, p. 13; Spring 1978, pp. 32, 39, Beds of Truth no. 31, p. 15.)
Vedanta: Swami Probhavananda alleges we "cannot accept Christ as the only Son of God, Those who insist on regarding the life and teachings of Jesus as unique are bound to have great difficulty in understanding them." Swami Prabhavananda, The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta 1963, p. 47.
Sai Baba Society (Sathya Sai Baba): "The inner mystery of the incarnation [is] God incarnating in all. All are One; the One is All.
Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism Diasaku Ikeda): "The doctrines of the divinity and the resurrection Of Christ are outside the province of rational thought .... Christians are schizophrenic." Noah S. Brannen, Soka Gakkai, Japan's Militant Buddhists (Richmond, VA: John Knox Press, 1968), pp. 98-99.
I agree with you that the Trinity doesn't make sense....
...In addition there are specific differences between God and His Son:
[*]God cannot die (I Timothy 6:16), but Jesus died.
[*]God cannot be tempted (James 1:13), but Jesus was tempted in all things, yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15).
[*]God is omniscient, i.e. He knows all things (I John 3:20), but Jesus said there were things that he did not know, including when he would return (Mark 13:32).
[*]God is omnipotent, i.e. all powerful, but Jesus said he could do nothing of himself without the Father (John 5:30).
[*]Jesus said that his doctrine was not his own, but His that sent him, and then differentiated between God and himself, emphasizing that he sought God's glory and not his own (John 7:16-18).
[*]Jesus made a distinction between himself and God, saying there is none good but one, that is, God (Mark 10:17-18).
[*]Jesus prayed to God (Luke 6:12). If he were God, he would have been talking to himself.
[*]Jesus was the Lamb of God (John 1:29,36), the perfect sacrifice to God. How could he sacrifice himself to himself? Jesus was the perfect sacrifice to God on behalf of mankind.
[*]Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God (Mark 16:19; Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 10:12; I Peter 3:22). If he were God, how could he sit on his own right hand?
The differences indicated in these verses aren't just differences between the Father and the Son. They are specifically stated as differences between God (as a whole) and Jesus. In addition, there are many clear, unambiguous references to Jesus as the Son of God, compared with only a handful of verses that call him God in a representational sense. And as I said before, it is largely because the early church lost the Hebrew understanding of this concept that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed.
Loved your entire post, Mark! Especially the "list of differences" between God and Jesus.
And thank you for explaining how people believe the "holy trininty". I can see their confusion now, clear as day!
It's not really as though there is "one God in three persons" as they say they believe, but the way they handle it, it is as though there are three distinct Gods: One God Who created the universe, one God Who (when it is convenient for Him) calls Himself "His own son", and one "rather mysterious" God whose refers to Himself as "The Holy Spirit".
It rather reminds me of Greek Mythology where there was a "god for everything"...but Paul distinctly pointed out (as you also showed) that there is ONE GOD.
Speaking of "many Gods", it reminded me of a humorous ancedote that happened at work one time. I was talking with one of my friends (who was Catholic) and he showed me a "medal" he was wearing around his neck. He explained that there are several of these for "various occasions".
This one was "St. Anthony of Padua", who (among other things) is "the Patron Saint of lost items". He said if you lose something, all you have to do is rub it and say a prayer, and you will find the item soon.
So I quipped: "What would happen if you lost the medal? What could you possibly do then?"
He looked very puzzled for a few moments. Then he said, "That's not a problem! I'd just go and buy another one."
So I agreed with him, saying, "That's exactly what I would do if I lost something. I would do my best to find it, but if I couldn't, I would just go and buy another one."
Then we both laughed. Despite our religious differences, we were still friends. I like that.
Here's a question, or, how would you solve this dilemma?
Mankind has fallen. You would like to redeem mankind.
You need a "Kinsman-Redeemer" - i.e., flesh must redeem flesh.
Yet, flesh cannot redeem flesh, God must redeem.
What do you do? How do you, as God, redeem Mankind?
I'm with Cman.. Who says man has fallen. Fallen where?
If he fell into a pit, get him out!
People sure try and paint God into some weird corners.. And it makes him look stupid too..
Bout as stupid as saying God wouldn't forgive your sins unless Christ died (or worse yet, he had himself killed cause he was unwilling to firgive. lol. Suicide due to being unforgiving.)...
How is it God setting up man to fall? He defined what His rules were, and gave man the choice to obey or not. If you have children, and you tell them to do something, are you setting them up to fall if they disobey?
I'm with Cman.. Who says man has fallen. Fallen where?
Fallen from the exalted position God originally meant for man, having dominion over His creation.
A smart God would just forgive them! Geez....
God cannot leave sin unpunished or He would not be a just and righteous judge. The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it. In His mercy God provided His Son as a sacrifice to pay for our sins. God is not only smart, but also both righteous and merciful.
Have you ever considered the concept of "let the punishment fit the crime" in this subject? (A concept which is listed in the Bible, by the way) See, this was one of the things that I never considered re: the Adam and Eve in the garden with the snake situation until recently.
God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge (<-- interestingly named by the way ;)) else they shall surely die (which is Clue #1 that I never considered before). Adam & Eve talk to the talking snake (which admittedly is definitely in the Weird Feng Shui Dept., I'll grant you that ), and take him up on his (ahem) 'bite my apple' offer. As per your premise of "God's gotta punish them or else He's not a Righteous God" routine, they pay the price (altho' there is a significant difference of opinion as to how is it that Adam and Eve "surely died", a topic which I shall leave for another day.
All of this raised enough questions as to the validity of God's approach to begin with. But when you consider that the punishment extends to the whole human race?! ... All who has done _nothing_ to deserve this god-of-your's wrath, ... except to be _born_? (ie., according to the "born dead in trespasses and sins" doctrine ala what is recorded in Romans.)
THAT is where the moral/ethics in this doctrine really takes a nosedive.
You say "The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it." ... Uhhh, well, if Adam & Eve had say, molested their kids, or have done something else that was the moral/ethical equivalent thereof (<-- note the emphasis please), I would accept your argument. But what Adam & Eve did (and that _just_ according to _your written scripture's account_, keep in mind) was the equivalent of walking on the grass, or even of minor theft (picking the fruit). ... Okay, well tell me something, is minor theft like that really worthy of the death penalty in your judgment?
... of the entire human race?? :unsure: ... and even if God "sent his only begotten son to pay the price for (said) sin"? ... a price that God Himself had set to begin with? ... which leads back to my original point here.
Have you ever considered the concept of "let the punishment fit the crime" in this subject? (A concept which is listed in the Bible, by the way) See, this was one of the things that I never considered re: the Adam and Eve in the garden with the snake situation until recently.
God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge (<-- interestingly named by the way ;)) ...the equivalent of walking on the grass, or even of minor theft (picking the fruit). ... Okay, well tell me something, is minor theft like that really worthy of the death penalty in your judgment?
It was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not just knowledge, & the result of eating of it was that they would be as gods. I'm not sure what that means, but it is obviously something more serious than walking on the grass. Taking God's position? Treason? As you said, Garth, letting the punishment fit the crime is after all a biblical concept.
There can never be a reconciliation between one who believes and one who doesn't.
As a believer, when God says man is fallen, and, as he tells us, he created us to be masterpieces, I think of fallen man as if someone had thrown paint on the Pieta, or slashed and spattered paint on the Mona Lisa - a masterpiece that has been marred, spoilt - ruined, fallen.
I believe that Adam, had he not worshipped and given his authority to the Adversary, would have had the right to go eat of the tree of life and rule, Christ would not have been needed as Adam was fulfilling his mission (there's a reason why Christ is called the "second" Adam), and things would be totally different today.
When Adam made his choice to worship the Adversary and "become as gods", when he decided - well, God really doesn't mean it when he says it will be death if I do this - he lost something, something died - something so profound, that he tried to put it back on, via skins.
I almost think he wore his spirit for all to see. He was glorious when he walked the Garden - a masterpiece creation of God. I think it was similar as when Peter saw Jesus in his "transfigured" glorious body. Peter never forgot and mentions it in Acts. The Hope of a new body and transformation was a reality to him. He had seen it first hand.
God promises to restore us to glorious, masterpiece state. That is our Hope.
Being the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil doesn't change it from being a tree in any event. That being said, I can imagine that the whole Adam & Eve and the Tree account is (by and large) more an allegory, illustration, or whatever, more than just a literal account (and that's for those who believe in it in the first place).
But if you read the rest of what I said, I believe I illustrated what the real problem was: setting aside whatever interpretation one might have of the incident re: Adam & Eve, ... that the punishment extended to the whole human race. (And now you throw in treason against God as Yet Another Reason to support this doctrine? ((snickers)) )
... and the punishment _still_ didn't fit the crime, particularly when you consider that the punishment extended to the whole human race.
Sunesis,
There can never be a reconciliation between one who believes and one who doesn't.
Yeah? Well, as long as the believers keep coming up with s**t like that, ... there won't.
And I note, with irony, that when all the specific arguments supporting some presumed-to-be-true theology are effectively shot down, argued against, or even questioned, then you guys always hide behind the "Well, it's one of those 'spiritual things' that you unbelievers just cannot understand. It's just something you have to take upon on faith." style arguments, coupled with the pretentious facade of being 'morally offended' that we unbelievers have the unmitigated *gaul* of bringing up these challenges (and in public, no doubt! :blink: How _dare_ we?) of your doctrine and faith to begin with. Ie., "Who are you to question God!?" and other such flatulence.
Like I say in my status update: "Nahh. We aren't 'unworthy critters'. We ain't 'gods' either. ... We are simply human beings, with all the positive and negative. But we ain't unworthy."
How is it God setting up man to fall? He defined what His rules were, and gave man the choice to obey or not. If you have children, and you tell them to do something, are you setting them up to fall if they disobey?
RIGHT ON, MARK!
Fallen from the exalted position God originally meant for man, having dominion over His creation.
SPOT-ON AGAIN, MARK!
God cannot leave sin unpunished or He would not be a just and righteous judge. The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it. In His mercy God provided His Son as a sacrifice to pay for our sins. God is not only smart, but also both righteous and merciful.
THE BRITISH WOULD SAY, "JOLLY GOOD SHOW, MARK"!
Have you ever considered the concept of "let the punishment fit the crime" in this subject?...
...As per your premise of "God's gotta punish them or else He's not a Righteous God" routine, they pay the price (altho' there is a significant difference of opinion as to how is it that Adam and Eve "surely died", a topic which I shall leave for another day.
Sunesis explains (further down) that what died (that very same day they "sinned") was Spirit. They no longer had that avenue with which to know things.
(And as a matter of fact, you will see later on that they no longer needed "spirit" to know what was right and wrong - they knew it all - and having the responsibility for doing EVERYTHING PERFECTLY was "condemning them horribly"! And it was all too late for them to go back, for the damage had already been done.
All of this raised enough questions as to the validity of God's approach to begin with. But when you consider that the punishment extends to the whole human race?! ... All who has done _nothing_ to deserve this god-of-your's wrath, ... except to be _born_? (ie., according to the "born dead in trespasses and sins" doctrine ala what is recorded in Romans.)
Whatever Adam had produced in his body is in each of us when we are born upon this earth...
...You see, God designed the science found in nature, which includes the laws of genetic structure and DNA, etc. He also designed within man things that even today's doctors and scientists do not yet fully understand. They are aware of the fact that certain chemicals in the brain need to be "in balance" for a body to be healthy - and there is much writing in the world on that subject!
Even medical novices like myself seem to understand that certain EXTREME SITUATIONS somehow trigger adrenaline to be released in our bodies. And just anybody understands that a "cold" may be caused in the body when one goes outside in the winter time without a sweater. Psychologists know that many sorts of mental illnesses may be caused just by thinking the wrong things over a long period of time. Just what happens in the mind to produce such things? Chemical imbalances? Chemical changes? Can mere thinking cause all that?
In contrast though, it is written: "A merry heart doeth good, like a medicine." It is a medical fact that thinking pleasant thoughts releases "natural serotonin" from the brain. In sufficient quantities, this drug can even produce "euphoria"! (So who says God doesn't like people getting "high"? - it's perfectly ok with Him if you do it HIS WAY instead of inhaling, injecting, or absorbing it from without the body!
But what the doctors don't understand is God's concept of "sin" or of man's "sin nature" (as God puts it) which was naturally passed on to us all through the bloodline of Adam. Adam had more problems than just a lack of "spirit". What he did had also caused a "negative effect" of some sort within his body.
(I am guessing now - perhaps his disobediance caused certain chemicals in his brain to be combined to form some "new item" which could not be healed by the body itself - some sort of "irreputable damage" which had no "physical cure". Perhaps somehow, his DNA was changed from what God had originally intended, and was passed along to all future generations.)
Most people seem to think "sin" is just disobedience - doing something wrong. Yes, that is true enough. But it is also an entity - something concrete in the body which results from wrongdoing. This is what Adam had produced in his own body - SIN. (And that (whatever it really is) is a part of our physical nature which was handed down to all generations by way of the bloodline from Adam.
So yes, Garth, it does seem unfair for everyone to be born that way - but it remains a physical reality to be "born in sin". But it does not have to stay that way!
You say "The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it." ... Uhhh, well, if Adam & Eve had say, molested their kids, or have done something else that was the moral/ethical equivalent thereof (<-- note the emphasis please), I would accept your argument. But what Adam & Eve did (and that _just_ according to _your written scripture's account_, keep in mind) was the equivalent of walking on the grass, or even of minor theft (picking the fruit). ... Okay, well tell me something, is minor theft like that really worthy of the death penalty in your judgment?
Let the punishment fit the crime. <_<
YOU called it "a minor offense" - that's JUST PLAIN GUESSWORK!
The "punishment DOES INDEED fit the crime" - This was no MINOR OFFENSE, as you suppose. They disobeyed God by doing the one and only thing He had commanded them NOT TO DO! The punishment for this "capitol crime" was "death", not unlike what the penal code demands in many of our own United States, even today!
Who knows just what happens when a person is "born again" according to the scriptures? Perhaps that "sin nature" is still within us physically, but again - is it possible God can negate its effect, allowing His children to live again just as if Adam hadn't sinned? (And the rest can just complain about it if they don't want the "MIRACLE-CURE" for this "sin"!)
Jesus Christ bought this for us from "God's Pharmacy", and it is freely given to all who accept it ON GOD'S TERMS - That is JUST!
It was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not just knowledge, & the result of eating of it was that they would be as gods. I'm not sure what that means, but it is obviously something more serious than walking on the grass. Taking God's position? Treason? As you said, Garth, letting the punishment fit the crime is after all a biblical concept.
That's very observant of you Tom! Plain and simple, IT WAS EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAID IT WAS! People everywhere have misunderstood this "tree". (Whether it was symbolic or real, the lesson is still valid - so for the sake of argument, we will just suppose for now it was a real tree of some kind.)
Even the "serpent" (the devil in disguise) knew what would result from eating fruit of that tree: "You will be as gods, knowing good and evil." (hence, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil)
But God had commanded them not to eat it, preferring they eat from the Tree of Life instead.
Taking shorcuts in life is not always the best thing to do. God would prefer if we learned life's lessons little by little, as we can handle it. We build slowly and carefully, allowing our learning to be based upon previous experiences. The greatest oak trees grow like this - naturally over time!
They say "Rome wasn't built in a day." - How true - Well, we aren't supposed to either!
Eating of the "Tree of Life" is like allowing this process of growing to be just like in nature - We learn life's lessons a little bit at a time, as God allows it for each individual. This works best for us because we are only responsible for a "bit" of knowledge at a time, and how we handle situations is based upon experience. What we don't know is "not held against us". (A good teacher would not even think of giving a calculus test to her first-grade class!)
Do we come out of the womb full grown? Why not? 'CAUSE WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO!
But what Adam and Eve did was WRONG. They ate of the "forbidden fruit" - and took a HORRIBLE SHORTCUT - the EASY WAY through life! They wanted everything now without having to work for it! All of a sudden - they KNEW TOO MUCH! It was just as the serpent had told them, except they suddenly realized that "being like gods" wasn't such a good idea after all...
...Somehow, they had become aware of EVERYTHING GOOD AND EVERYTHING EVIL. But the problem was that they couldn't handle it, because it was all "head knowledge" without being "tempered by experience", the way knowlegde should have been.
This sort of reminds me of a line by Jack Nicholson as General Jessep in A Few Good Men: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
No wonder the scripture says, "And the eyes of them both were opened..." and later: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..."
How would you like to instantly understand EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING WRONG? (Especially for Adam who had done the only thing God said not to!) How do you like it when people point out all your faults - like some do in their posts here? What would you do if you were presently aware of EVERY POSSIBLE SIN you had done, or are doing - every stray thought - every nuance? I would feel so condemned, I would just like to crawl into a hole somewhere and hide!
Becoming responsible for too much all at once without experience to handle it with is SHEER FOLLY! Let us learn to be patient as we learn life a little bit at a time...
...for God has promised that He will "not allow something to come your way which you cannot yet handle with what you presently understand". (my paraphrase of 1Co 10:13)
I believe that Adam, had he not worshipped and given his authority to the Adversary, would have had the right to go eat of the tree of life and rule, Christ would not have been needed as Adam was fulfilling his mission (there's a reason why Christ is called the "second" Adam), and things would be totally different today.
How true! Eating tree of life was just fine with God.
When Adam made his choice to worship the Adversary and "become as gods", when he decided - well, God really doesn't mean it when he says it will be death if I do this - he lost something, something died - something so profound, that he tried to put it back on, via skins.
Right on, Sunesis! Through Christ we have gained back all which was lost through Adam's sin. And we are now "clothed with righeousness" - and that's a whole lot better than a fig leaf!
I almost think he wore his spirit for all to see. He was glorious when he walked the Garden - a masterpiece creation of God. I think it was similar as when Peter saw Jesus in his "transfigured" glorious body. Peter never forgot and mentions it in Acts. The Hope of a new body and transformation was a reality to him. He had seen it first hand.
God promises to restore us to glorious, masterpiece state. That is our Hope.
VERY WONDERFUL POST, SUNESIS!
And I note, with irony, that when all the specific arguments supporting some presumed-to-be-true theology are effectively shot down, argued against, or even questioned, then you guys always hide behind the "Well, it's one of those 'spiritual things' that you unbelievers just cannot understand. It's just something you have to take upon on faith." style arguments, coupled with the pretentious facade of being 'morally offended' that we unbelievers have the unmitigated *gaul* of bringing up these challenges (and in public, no doubt! :blink: How _dare_ we?) of your doctrine and faith to begin with. Ie., "Who are you to question God!?" and other such flatulence.
I don't hide behind some "catch all" phrase, pal! I don't expect people to just blindly take what I say on "faith", as you suppose I do! In PLAIN SIGHT, I logically explain what I believe - and if you still don't want to hear it, that's your doing! Everyone has the same opportunity to believe the truth or not.
And I am not "offended" when challenged by you "unbelievers" (as you call yourself and others like you)! I know where I stand now, and where I shall stand in the future as well.
And just who are YOU to call my words "flatulence", as though they smell like f*rts? I think your nose isn't working properly, 'cause the truth sure smells good to me! (Maybe your "wayward thoughts over a long period of time" have produced some chemical imbalance in your system which affects your sense of smell!)
Gee, folks! I sure spent a lot of time on this post...somebody must have "pushed the right button"!
As with most of my writings, I would appreciate honest feedback, and gentle correction (with facts, and logic, if you please)where I may have strayed.
I would especially like to hear what you all (especially my "friends") think of my take on the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil".
I had spent quite some time years ago working to see that and have not heard it put that way before, so I believe it's a rather new idea.
If it makes some sense to any of you, do let me know - maybe it would make a good TOPIC!
Gee, folks! I sure spent a lot of time on this post...somebody must have "pushed the right button"!
As with most of my writings, I would appreciate honest feedback, and gentle correction (with facts, and logic, if you please)where I may have strayed.
I would especially like to hear what you all (especially my "friends") think of my take on the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil".
I had spent quite some time years ago working to see that and have not heard it put that way before, so I believe it's a rather new idea.
If it makes some sense to any of you, do let me know - maybe it would make a good TOPIC!
SPEC
:)
Honestly, Spec, I don't think people are meant to learn from the tree of good and evil either all at once or over the long haul. Even today, we are to be wise concerning good and simple concerning evil - avoid it. We are to be adult and wise enough spiritually to have our spiritual senses exercised to descern both good and evil, yet still wise concerning good and simple concerning evil.
If one follows evil, they will see evil - big deal. That was called genuine spiritual perception in TWI. All it did was increase unto more ungodliness. The offense multiplied. Evil led the way.
If one follows good, they will see the evil as out of course, and also see the way back to the good.
God knows.
Respect God - enjoy good - be protected from evil (the evil one).
Act like God & mess with evil - evil leads the way. Who's the fool? The one who says God is stupid and I'm smart. Same sin visited on all mankind.
Justice? Hardly, the grossest injustice. Justice comes with the one who obeyed in the face of the grossest injustice to an innocent life. Even as he is put down by man's judgement, he picks us up to where we belong & forgives us our stupidity. Gotta love the guy!
I have come to realize there are some Bible and spiritual things in this life I just don't know and never will and I am okey dokey with that. H-e-doublehockeysticks, I don't need to have all the answers. If I did, I might be too smart for my own britches and lose sight of all the folks in this world that need love and help.
I can not fathom looking at my fellow man as fallen or unworthy. That is why religion makes me puke. Most Christian religious denominations never go anywhere to help anybody without the mindset that those they intend to help are just that. The only reason they want to help them is to convert them. Do you think they would just go and help without that intent? Oh, let's feed them, clothe them, teach them to read so they can convert to Christianity.
WEll, I love everybody and I wasn't picking on anybody here. All this scripture bantering back and forth made me think of something I encountered today. So I just had a few things to say ...oohhhkaaaaaaay.
I think "religion" makes most people puke, me included. I had enough in TWI thank you - no mas religion for me.
But, it seems to me, the whole point of the Bible, and mankind needing a personal savior, Christ, is: because man is "fallen" or whatever you would like to call it.
If mankind is not fallen - why even believe the Bible? why believe Christ? why believe in a God? It makes absolutely no sense. If I did not believe that simple, basic premise, I would not believe either. I would consider it to be a waste of time and think those poor "believers" were deluded. And, as noted, we do have people who believe this.
But, many of us accept the original premise and so thus - mankind needs a redeemer.
The Bible's whole point is: There is a new "Kingdom" coming. There is a new Heaven and Earth coming. You will need a new body for the new environment that is coming. The point is to invite all to the new Kingdom and Heaven and Earth.
Its a simple point, we can choose to believe the premise or not.
But to not believe the first point in the Bible made about mankind - he was perfect and then fell, well, why believe any of it?
I can not fathom looking at my fellow man as fallen or unworthy. That is why religion makes me puke. Most Christian religious denominations never go anywhere to help anybody without the mindset that those they intend to help are just that. The only reason they want to help them is to convert them. Do you think they would just go and help without that intent? Oh, let's feed them, clothe them, teach them to read so they can convert to Christianity.
It's taken me a long time to come to face my own fallen & unworthy nature. It's a humbling experience. Life is more than food and shelter. I respect those who give that, but we need more. I need more. And it is not in me to give. I need redemption to enter into the realm of the giver of life for that. He intended more. From that we've fallen. To that he raises us up.
I think "religion" makes most people puke, me included. I had enough in TWI thank you - no mas religion for me.
......
If mankind is not fallen - why even believe the Bible? why believe Christ? why believe in a God? It makes absolutely no sense. If I did not believe that simple, basic premise, I would not believe either. I would consider it to be a waste of time and think those poor "believers" were deluded. And, as noted, we do have people who believe this.
......
But to not believe the first point in the Bible made about mankind - he was perfect and then fell, well, why believe any of it?
I wouldn't.
Sunesis, Basically, with the above portion of your post, you catch where I'm coming from quite right! :) Thank you.
But, many of us accept the original premise and so thus - mankind needs a redeemer.
Well, I don't accept 'the original premise', 'thus' the need for me to have a redeemer ... is gone.
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Mark Clarke
How is it God setting up man to fall? He defined what His rules were, and gave man the choice to obey or not. If you have children, and you tell them to do something, are you setting them up to fall
GarthP2000
Bingo cman! And more and more people are realizing that too. :B)
Sunesis
There can never be a reconciliation between one who believes and one who doesn't. As a believer, when God says man is fallen, and, as he tells us, he created us to be masterpieces, I think of fallen
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spectrum49
My bad Oakspear! Sorry. It does have some meaning to everyone. I stand corrected -- all are welcome here to view their own opinion.
SPEC
:)
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Tom
Just a quick note here - sorry if it is outside the context of the discussion, but you prove a negative by disproving its positive. That is the principle VP was using when he said that if Jesus is not God anywhere in the Word, he is not God everywhere in the Word.
My understanding of who Jesus Christ is has grown, and is growing, into something that is amazing, extraordinary, and exquisite in every regard. Jesus asked whom do you think I am, and Peter answered the son of God. Jesus said the Father had shown him that. If the Father had to show Peter that when he had the man right in front of him, how is it that years later a bunch of guys get together, discuss it, and decide who Jesus - not only that, but who God is & come up with the Trinity? I think that whole process is patently fallacious. People can't DEFINE GOD.
Perhaps that is a point aside for a different discussion, but there are too many points where Jesus doesn't equal God for me to seriously consider that he is God, Trinitarian rationals notwithstanding. Then I would no longer be studying the Word, I'd be studying Trinitarian philosophy - or "theology" if you insist. But I'd be studying what men tell me God is.
Without that limitation, I'm free to let the Word and the comforter teach me without getting sidetracked. And, as I said, the teaching has been extraordinary. I think VP's treatment of who Jesus Christ is - well, it broke the mold which is good, but ultimately the character of Jesus winds up being relatively (in juxtaposition to the truth) very flat and VP's teaching antichrist - the nature of which blinds the eyes.
So we have a flat Jesus on one hand and the Trinity on the other, and the bread of life lies on table in plain view, yet unseen and uneaten. I'm by no means discounting the real relationships that people - on either side of the discussion - have with the Lord. I know my words may be taken as egotistical, but I believe its the truth.
Comforter, teach us.
Tom
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Mark Clarke
Spectrum49,
I agree with you that the Trinity doesn't make sense. However, as Geisha779 pointed out, your arguments don't work because they start with a wrong definition of the Trinity. Any arguments that involve differences between the Father and the Son don't disprove the Trinity, because as Trinitarians will tell you, there are differences between the Father and the Son. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. However, according to the definition, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is but one God, who exists in three persons.
The Scriptural argument I would offer to that definition is that Jesus declared that "the Father" is the "only true God":
John 17:
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Paul likewise declared that there was one God, the Father; and one lord, Jesus Christ, the man who is the mediator between God and man.
I Corinthians 8:
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
In addition there are specific differences between God and His Son:
The differences indicated in these verses aren't just differences between the Father and the Son. They are specifically stated as differences between God (as a whole) and Jesus. In addition, there are many clear, unambiguous references to Jesus as the Son of God, compared with only a handful of verses that call him God in a representational sense. And as I said before, it is largely because the early church lost the Hebrew understanding of this concept that the doctrine of the Trinity was developed.
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TrustAndObey
Can we all agree on that?! Probably not..
But this I know, after having this discussion as most of us have while in The Way, with a multitude of different folks from all walks of life and religions, that everyone has a different view point. Even those who think they are saying the same, are not.
Case in point.. My parents both say they believe in the Trinity.. If you ask my dad who Christ is, He's God.. One of the three "persons" of the one entity called "God.. The traditional/orthodox (after many revisions and centuries later after the original) belief that is prevalent today. You ask my mom, well, Christ certainly isn't God, he's his son.. ?! Yeah.. Ok.. I try and tell her that's not the "accepted" definition of the trinity, but like all of us, we all have our own viewpoint. The Way's viewpoint typically is what most call Oneness, Trunity, or Sabellianism..
But even in those 3, there are so many different varied viewpoints. And If God cares whether or not "YOU" or anyone else thinks he has 2 feet or no feet or is made of the seven spirits or the three "persons", I think you really put God in a pretty small box.
Just going through all the scriptures people brought up already can be seen clearly and logically from either viewpoint (once one accepts their ultimate maxim). While each persons maxims may be harder to logically understand, I'm sure there's logic to why we believe the maxims we do, proven enough to the each of us.
Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Trinitarian: There's different "persons" of God and while the Father is not Jesus but they both are 100% God. And Stephen was able to see the "persons" of God.
Unitarian: Self explanatory
Oneness: It was the glory of God that Jesus was standing next to..
John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Trinitarian: Again, Jesus is not the Father, but since both Jesus and the Father are God, the same one God, Jesus' words makes since, if you knew him, you'd know the Father.. Not because Jesus and the Father are the same, but that they are the same God.
Unitarian: Jesus was the "image" of God. A reflection of his Father, so if you'd known one, you'd know the other.
Oneness: Jesus and the Father are the same!
John 10:30 I and my Father are one
Trinitarian: They along with the holy spirit are one God! Each 100% the one and same God, but individual "persons".
Unitarian: They are one in unity as Paul and Barnabas are said to be one, and man and wife, one.
Oneness: They are one God! Jesus and the Father are the same, different "persona's" of the same God.
Luke 6:12 "One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God."
Trinitarian: One part of the Trinity communicating to the other members of the Trinity. Same one God, but there is communication between the "persons" in the Godhead, just as there is communication between our body parts.
Unitarian: No explanation needed
Oneness: This is just Jesus showing as an example to pray often. Even though people weren't there, they were aware of his example. People talk to themselves all the time.
Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Trinitarian: When the "person" of Jesus came to earth he let go of his glory, when his flesh died (not the god part of him) his glory returned.
Unitarian: Jesus was not Lord and Christ until God "made" him so.
Oneness: While on this earth, Jesus was both 100% God and 100% man, but the man died, and God made his name while on earth to be revered just as much as his previous names of YHWH and such..
Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.
Trinitarian: This speaks only of the human side of Jesus, not the God side. Jesus has 2 natures you know..
Unitarian: Jesus was God's servant, not God.
Oneness: Same as Trinitarian.
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Trinitarian: This speaks only of the human side of Jesus, not the God side. Jesus has 2 natures you know..
Unitarian: Jesus was able to do mighty works because God "gave" him this ability and was "with" him.
Oneness: Same as Trinitarian.
Romans 15:6 "so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Trinitarian: God is speaking of the "person" of the Father, who is known as Father by name not function to Christ. As known as Jesus's God by economy within the godhead not by position or separation.
Unitarian: Jesus has a God and Father..
Oneness: Speaking of the human side of Jesus.
1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Trinitarian: God is speaking of the "person" of the Father, who is known as Father by name not function to Christ. As known as Christ's head by economy within the godhead not by position or separation.
Unitarian: Christ's head is God.
Oneness: Speaking of the human side of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Trinitarian: Jesus had 2 natures. God and man.
Unitarian: Even after the resurection, Jesus is still called a man between God and other men.
Oneness: Same as Trinitarian.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
See above
While I'm sure some beliefs are more "logically" sound, none of us can define God completely. And really, it's the relationship between the individual and His creator ultimately.
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Oakspear
Good summary T&O, kind of what I've been trying to say, but with evidence!
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geisha779
When Jesus asked. . . who do men say I am . . He didn't set out on a campaign to correct everyone. . . and they called Him a few different things . . . He was concerned with who His disciples said He was. . . . He is the Christ. . . . the Son of the living God. . . six days later. . . Peter saw the transfiguration. He saw who He is . . . pretty big deal.
How do you come up with A single Unitarian response to those verses? As if they are all like TWI's . . . . They are all different. Someone needs to put it in a creed.
"Who do you say I am?" That is trying to define the vast God of the universe or put Him in a box?. . . . Jesus asked the question. He thought it an important enough question.
You can't define God . . . this is why He was manifest in the flesh . . . so you could know Him. He came to reveal Him.
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV
Jehovah's Witnesses- Charles Taze Russell- "There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307) …"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself." (WT 12/15/1984 p29) Michael the archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ.."(New Heavens and New Earth pg.30-31)- Charles Taze Russell-"There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return." (WT 5/15/1969, p. 307) …"Michael the great prince is none other than Jesus Christ himself." (WT 12/15/1984 p29) Michael the archangel is no other than the only begotten son of God, now Jesus Christ."(New Heavens and New Earth pg.30-3
Mormonism- Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints- "..That Lucifer, the son of the morning, is our elder brother and the brother of Jesus Christ." (Apostle B. McConkie Mormon doctrine p.163-164) "...Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven," (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50-51). Jesus got married at Cana and had many wives Martha, Mary and others he also had many children," (J & D vol.1 345-346 vol.2 79-82 vol.4:259-260 the seer p.172)
The Unification Church (Sun Myung Moon): "It is a great error to think Jesus was God Himself. Jesus is no different from other men."( Young Oon Kin, Divine Principle and its Application (HSA-UWC, 1968), p. 75.) "We must understand that this (John 8.58) also does not signify that Jesus was God Himself .Jesus on earth was a man no different from us except for the fact that He was born without original sin." (Divine Principle p. 212).
Christian Science Christian Science (Mary Baker Eddy): "Jesus Christ is not God, as Jesus Himself declared, but is the Son of God." (Science and Health Key to the Scriptures p.361). Jesus is the name of the man who, more than all other men, has presented Christ, the true idea of God. . . . Jesus is the human man, and Christ is the divine idea; hence the duality of Jesus the Christ. (Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health and Key to the Scriptures The First Church of Christ Scientist 1934, p. 361.) " he was the first human to understand the Divine Mind." " Jesus means "the highest human corporeal concept of the divine idea. . ." (ibid. p. 589).
Christadelphians (John Thomas). "Jesus Christ did not exist as a person from eternity as one of the triune Godhead.... He did not actually come into being until He was begotten of the Holy Spirit and born in Bethlehem" (Christadelphian messenger no.46 the word made flesh p.3)
Oneness Pentecostals "The Son of God existed from all eternity only as a plan in the mind of God." (The Oneness of God, D. Bernard p.295) "the role of the son is temporary and not eternal" (p.105, 108)""The Son of God refers to the humanity of Jesus." (Oneness of God, p.98)
Way International Paul Wierwille taught "We, as well as Jesus Christ, were with God in His foreknowledge, but not in existence, before the world began. Neither did Jesus Christ" (Jesus Christ Is Not God pp. 31-32). that Jesus did not exist except in the mind of God before conception in Mary's womb, and "Jesus Christ the Son of God, was made by God" (Ibid, pp. 103-04).
Christian Spiritual Alliance The Christian Spiritual Alliance (Roy Eugene Davis): "Jesus was not the only begotten." (Roy Eugene Davis, the Hidden teachings of Jesus Revealed 1968, p. 9, emphasis added.
Iglesia Ni Cristo (Felix Manalo) "If there is any verse which people claim proves the alleged deity of Christ, this verse has been wrongly interpreted by the people." (Pasugo 1984 May/june p.14) "Col.1:15 states very clearly, Christ is 'the firstborn of every creature,' and is therefore not the creator."(Pasugo Jan/.Feb 1980 p.37) "The scriptures do not teach that Christ is the creator of all things." (PASUGO, March/April 1982, p. 26.)"We now affirm that Jn.1:1 does not call Jesus Christ God…'It does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity." (God's message July/Sept 1995 p.14)
Unity School of Christianity (Charles Fillmore), "Most of our religious beliefs are based on the [erroneous] idea that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God." Unity (periodical), October, 1976, pp. 59-60.)
Urantia book- Jesus Christ is not identified as being uniquely God the Son, second Person of the Holy Trinity. Instead he is Michael, one of many God the Sons. The Michael of Nebadon is the `only-begotten Son' personalizing this 611,121st universal concept of divinity and infinity," P. 53 In other words, Jesus (Michael) is the Son of the Son of God and the Father in the sense that when these two beings had a simultaneous original thought for the 611,121st time, Jesus (Michael) was begotten. (p.366). Unitarian Universalism: Unitarian Universalist minister Waldemar Argow states: "They [unitarian/Universalists] do not regard him as a supernatural creature, the literal son of God who was miraculously sent to earth as part of an involved plan for the salvation of human souls.', (Waldemar Argow, Unitarian Universalism-Some Questions Answered (pamphlet) (Boston, MA. Unitarian Universalism Assoc., nd.), p. 6.)
Anthroposophy (Rudolph Steiner): "[Jesus] ... must be designated in the truest sense of the word as a 'mere man'.. ( Rudolf Steiner, From Jesus to Christ 1973, pp. 51-52.
Theosophy (Helena. P Blavatsky): "Nowhere throughout the New Testament is Jesus found calling himself God, or anything higher than 'a son of God,' the son of a 'Father,' common to all." Helena Petrovna Blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine (India: Theosophical Publishing House 1971), vol. 5, p. 369n.
Word faith movement John Avanzini "Jesus had a nice house, a big house." (Believer's Voice of Victory, (TBN) 1/20/91) "Jesus was handling big money." (Praise the Lord (TBN), 9/15/88)
Kenneth Copeland "The image being that he was a copy, looked just like, if you stood Adam upside God they look just exactly alike...." (The Authority of the Believer IV, Tape #01-0304) "Jesus has a beginning and an end." (What Happened From the Cross to the Throne, Tape #00-0303) God is a "spirit-being with a body, complete with eyes, and eyelids, ears, nostrils, a mouth, hands and fingers, and feet." (Kenneth Copeland ministry letter, 21 July 1977.) "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell" (Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition (Kenneth Copeland, Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129.)
Benny Hinn '"What was the appearance of God the Father? Like that of a man...God has the likeness of fingers and hands and a face." (Good Morning Holy Spirit, (Benny Hinn, Word, 1991) p. 82) "Have you been begotten? So was He. Don't let anyone deceive you. Jesus was reborn. " (Benny Hinn, Our Position 'In Christ,' Part 1 1991), videotape #TV-254. "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost - three separate individuals, one in essence, one in work - and, may I add, each one of them possesses His own spirit-body. " ("Praise the Lord", 10/23/92)
Hagin speaking of Jesus "his spirit and inner man went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? PHYSICAL DEATH WOULDN'T REMOVE YOUR SINS. He tasted death for every man. He's talking about spiritual death."
A.R.E Association for Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce): "He is an ensample [example] for man, and only as a man, for He lived only as a man, He died as man."( Association for Research and Enlightenment Edgar Cayce, reading no. 900-10 from Circulating file: Jesus the Pattern and You, p. 53.) Edgar Cayce-"Q. `When did the knowledge come to Jesus that he was to be the savior of the world? "A. `When he fell in Eden... In Adam, he brought sin,'" (Psychic Healing, p. 75).
The Bahai Faith (The Bab; Baha'u'llah): "Jesus was not the only-begotten Son of God come down from Heaven, crucified and resurrected, nor the unique Saviour. Firuz Kazemzeden World Order summer 1978 p.39 the national spiritual assembly of the bahai's of the United states) Was Christ within god, or God within Christ ? No in the name of God. " (Abdul Baha Questions p. 97) Many Christians are surprised to find that a new messenger from God has already come, saying that he is the return of Christ." (The Return of Christ p. 4 1978 Bahai publishing trust)
Islam- Sura 43:59 "Jesus was no more than a mortal whom Allah favored and made an example to the Israelites. They are unbelievers who say God is Messiah, Mary's son." Surat al Nisa 4:157-158 "And because of their saying: we slew the messiah Jesus son of Mary. Allahs messenger-they slew him not nor crucified- Sura 43:59
Church Universal and Triumphant-Mark and Elizabeth Prophet "The Christ Self, then, has communication with the Father who in both Principle and Person is the Presence of God, the 1 AM THAT 1 AM, or the 1 AM Presence." (Mysteries of the Holy Grail Arch angel Gabriel p.217) the Prophets explain, "Jesus was both the actual and symbolical representative of this Christ Self. Jesus was the example. the one who self-realized the Christ Mind and was at one with It at all times. Jesus himself was not the only begotten Son of the Father. The Christ of him was and is the only begotten Son of the Father " (The Lost Teachings of Jesus p. 241).
Eckankar (Paul Twitchell): "do not put Him [Jesus] in a special category, for all saviours and prophets who came to earth to help mankind did their part arid passed on to the glory of the heavenly kingdom ..
The Foundation of Human understanding The Foundation of Human understanding (Roy Masters): -you must not have any concepts of what Christ is like or God is like. it all must be an inward revelation process-" (Roy Masters (tape), -The Mystery of Golgotha.
The Gurdjieff Foundation (Gurdfieff): -[in a conversation] ... Gurdjieff said: 'I hate your Jesus, poor Jewish boy'-the emphasis being on' your.'"' (C S. Nott Teachings of Gurdjieff. A Pupil's Journal 1978, p. 103
Course in miracles- (Helen Schucman) "Jesus is a man, who is like all other men, and the Christ idea, which all men possess and must eventually demonstrated. He becomes the pattern for all of us. Jesus the man was used by the Christ to demonstrate the illusion of the world."...Jesus became what all of you must be. ...Is he the Christ? O yes, along with you. ...Is he God's only Helper? No, indeed. For Christ takes many forms with different names..." (pp. 83-84)."The Son of God ... is not Jesus but our combined Christ consciousness. . ."The name Jesus refers to one who was a man but who saw the face of Christ in all his brothers.... So he became identified with Christ, a man no longer at one with God."
The Masons- Manly Hall who started the Masons refers to Jesus as "The Solar Diety' Jesus of Nazareth had attained a level of consciousness, of perfection, that has been called by various names: cosmic consciousness, soul regeneration, philosophic initiation, spiritual illumination, Brahmic Splendor, Christ-consciousness. (Lynn F Perkins, The Meaning of Masonry, CSA Press, 1971, 53)
Lola Davis the New Age "Christ" resides on a different plane of consciousness from that which we experience. There he directs the Masters, "a group of advanced souls, most of them discarnate ... known variously as the White Brotherhood, The Great White Lodge, the Masters of Wisdom, the Hierarchy, and the Angels around the Throne." (Lola Davis toward a world religion for a new age p.186)
Matthew Fox- The Cosmic Christ is the divine pattern that connects in the person of Jesus Christ (but by no means is limited to that person). (The Coming of the Cosmic Christ p.135) Divinity is found in all creatures. The divine name from Exod. 3:14, "1 Am who I Am," is appropriated by Jesus who shows us how to embrace our own divinity. The Cosmic Christ is the "I am" in every creature. (P154)
Babara Marx Hubbard- "Who is this child? This child is the Christ-child within who has emerged victorious, fully born, incarnated as every member of the human race who evolves." "This UNITY OF THE ELECT is the key to the transformation from Adam to Christ, from Homo sapiens to HOMO UNIVERSALIS, from creature to co-creator, from self-centered to whole centered beings."
David and Naomi Rice.... The Christ is within each and everyone of God's creatures. …. . .the Christ is the spark of pure energy of God that has always existed within the individual manifestation of God in in many forms, but has been forgotten. (Messiah and the 2nd coming John David and Naomi Rice 1982 Coptic press Wyoming MI)
David Spangler stated: Christ is the same force as Lucifer...... Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into a New Age ... each of us in some way is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation ... for it is an invitation into the New Age. (David Spangler reflections on the Christ p.44-45)
Tara Center- THE CHRIST IS IN THE WORLD. A great World Teacher for people of every religion and no religion. A practical man with solutions to our problems. He loves ALL humanity... Christ is here, my friends. Your Brother walks among you. (Tara Center, full-page ad in USA Today, January 12, 1987) stated: Christ is the same force as Lucifer...... Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to wholeness, and as we move into a New Age ... each of us in some way is brought to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation ... for it is an invitation into the New Age.(David Spangler reflections on the Christ p.44-45)
Tara Center- THE CHRIST IS IN THE WORLD. A great World Teacher for people of every religion and no religion. A practical man with solutions to our problems. He loves ALL humanity... Christ is here, my friends. Your Brother walks among you. (Tara Center, full-page ad in USA Today, January 12, 1987) Benjamen Creme's opinion, -given to him by his master, Lord Maitreya, you and I are not God and Jesus did not claim to be God."The Christ is the Master 'Of all the Masters , but He is not God, and never claimed to be God"
Rosicrucianism (AMORO (H. Spencer Lewis): "Nowhere in the teachings and practices of Jesus can we find the least intimation that His great system was intended to bring salvation to the physical body of man. Even the salvation of the soul was not taught by Jesus, and all references in the Christian Bible to the salvation of the soul constitute a misinterpretation, a misunderstanding, of the secret (Rosicrucianism] principle that Jesus taught.( K Spencer Lewis, The secret Doctrine of Jesus (San Jose, CA-- Supreme Grand Lodge of AMORC), pp. 186-87,189-91.The Son is the highest initiate of the Sun"( The Rosicrucian Cosmo Conception). "The Christ spirit which entered the body of Jesus when Jesus Himself vacated it, was a ray from the cosmic Christ. We may follow Jesus back in His previous incarnations and can trace his growth to the present day." (The Rosicrucian Philosophy p. 181)
Science of Mind (Ernest Holmes): "Jesus is the name of a man. Christ means the Universal Principle of Divine Sonship.'(N. Kasturt Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. 8, Ist ed. 1975, p.144.)
Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard): "Neither Lord Buddha nor Jesus Christ were OTs [that is, Operation Thetans, enlightened beings] according to the evidence. They were just a shade above clear [that is, relatively low on the Scientology scale of spiritual advancement." (Ability magazine no. 81 [c. 1959 p. 31.)
Pierre Teilhard De Chardin- If a Christ is to be completely acceptable as an object of worship, he must be presented as the saviour of the Idea and reality of evolution. (P. 78) I believe that the Messiah whom we await, whom we all without any doubt await the universal Christ; that is to say, the Christ of evolution. (P. 96)Christianity and Evolution by
Transcendental Meditation (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi): "[When] Christ said, Be still and know that I am God.'[He also meant) 'Be still and know that you are God."' And, "I don't think Christ ever suffered [on the cross].... Those who count upon the suffering, it is a wrong interpretation of the life of Christ and the message of Christ. It is wrong."105
Lucis Trust (Alice Bailey): -The Incarnation, which is for popular Christianity synonymous with the historical birth and earthly life of Christ, is for the mystic not only this but also a Perpetual cosmic and personal process.- (Alice Bailey, From Bethlehem to Calvary Lucis Trust, 1976, P. 7
Matthew Fox- The Cosmic Christ is the divine pattern that connects in the person of Jesus Christ (but by no means is limited to that person). (The Coming of the Cosmic Christ p.135) Divinity is found in all creatures. The divine name from Exod. 3:14, "1 Am who I Am, "is appropriated by Jesus who shows us how to embrace our own divinity. The Cosmic Christ is the "I am" in every creature. (P154)
Agne Yoga Fellowship Agne Yoga Fellowship (Swami Kriyananda): 'What is Christ? St. Simeon the new theologian wrote, 'I move my hand, and Christ moves, who is my hand." Swami Kriyananda, Eastern Thoughts, Western Thoughts (Nevada City, CA: Ananda Publications, 1975), pp. 67-68.
Self-Realization Fellowship Self-Realization Fellowship (Paramahansa Yogananda): "in Christian Scriptures it [Christ] is called the 'only begotten son'. . .. It is the universal consciousness, oneness with God, manifested by Jesus, Krishna, and other avatars." Paramahansa Yogananda, Man's Eternal Quest (Los Angeles, CA- Self Realization Fellowship, 1975), pp. 470-71; cf., Self Realization (Los Angeles, CA-Self Realization Fellowship), Winter 1979, pp, 340,
Sri Chinmoy Centers (Sri Chinmoy): "To say that Christ is the Savior and the only way to salvation is a mistake. ... He laughs when His followers say He is the only savior.- Sri Chininoy, A Hundred Years from Now (Jamaica, NY. Agni press, 1974), pp, 39-43.
YoganandaYogananda "man reincarnates on earth until he has consciously regained his status as a son of God."
The Divine Life Society Integral Yoga Institute (Sivananda/ Satchidananda): "Remember that Christ is not a person, It's an experience-Christhood. Like Nirvana or Buddha. It's an experience.. . " (Satchinananda speaks p.47-48 June 17, 1975)
Sri Yukteswar said: Theologians have interpreted Christ's words in such passages as "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (Jn. 14:6). Jesus meant, never that he was the sole Son of God, but that no man can attain the unqualified Absolute, the transcendent Father beyond creation, until he has first manifested the 'Son' or activating Christ Consciousness within creation. Jesus, who had achieved entire onenness with that Christ consciousness, identified himself with it inasmuch as his own ego had long since been dissolved.' (Paramahansa Yogananda Autobiography of a Yogi Self Realization fellowship p.178)
3 HO Sikhism 3 HO Sikhism (Yogi Bhajan): Jesus was a man of God only who had to become qualified for hiknow if Joseph was his father and his mother created "her son to really be a Christ," but not a savior. Heads of Truth, Winter, March 1978, p. 20; Spring 1975, p. 13; Spring 1978, pp. 32, 39, Beds of Truth no. 31, p. 15.)
Vedanta: Swami Probhavananda alleges we "cannot accept Christ as the only Son of God, Those who insist on regarding the life and teachings of Jesus as unique are bound to have great difficulty in understanding them." Swami Prabhavananda, The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta 1963, p. 47.
Sai Baba Society (Sathya Sai Baba): "The inner mystery of the incarnation [is] God incarnating in all. All are One; the One is All.
Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism Diasaku Ikeda): "The doctrines of the divinity and the resurrection Of Christ are outside the province of rational thought .... Christians are schizophrenic." Noah S. Brannen, Soka Gakkai, Japan's Militant Buddhists (Richmond, VA: John Knox Press, 1968), pp. 98-99.
http://www.letusreason.org/Cult13.htm
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Sunesis
Here's a question, or, how would you solve this dilemma?
Mankind has fallen. You would like to redeem mankind.
You need a "Kinsman-Redeemer" - i.e., flesh must redeem flesh.
Yet, flesh cannot redeem flesh, God must redeem.
What do you do? How do you, as God, redeem Mankind?
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cman
I don't believe mankind has fallen.
That would be God setting up man to fall.
Sounds like dictatorship to me.
Fallen asleep, I'd say.
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GarthP2000
Bingo cman! And more and more people are realizing that too. :B)
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spectrum49
Loved your entire post, Mark! Especially the "list of differences" between God and Jesus.
And thank you for explaining how people believe the "holy trininty". I can see their confusion now, clear as day!
It's not really as though there is "one God in three persons" as they say they believe, but the way they handle it, it is as though there are three distinct Gods: One God Who created the universe, one God Who (when it is convenient for Him) calls Himself "His own son", and one "rather mysterious" God whose refers to Himself as "The Holy Spirit".
It rather reminds me of Greek Mythology where there was a "god for everything"...but Paul distinctly pointed out (as you also showed) that there is ONE GOD.
Speaking of "many Gods", it reminded me of a humorous ancedote that happened at work one time. I was talking with one of my friends (who was Catholic) and he showed me a "medal" he was wearing around his neck. He explained that there are several of these for "various occasions".
This one was "St. Anthony of Padua", who (among other things) is "the Patron Saint of lost items". He said if you lose something, all you have to do is rub it and say a prayer, and you will find the item soon.
So I quipped: "What would happen if you lost the medal? What could you possibly do then?"
He looked very puzzled for a few moments. Then he said, "That's not a problem! I'd just go and buy another one."
So I agreed with him, saying, "That's exactly what I would do if I lost something. I would do my best to find it, but if I couldn't, I would just go and buy another one."
Then we both laughed. Despite our religious differences, we were still friends. I like that.
SPEC
:)
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TrustAndObey
I'm with Cman.. Who says man has fallen. Fallen where?
If he fell into a pit, get him out!
People sure try and paint God into some weird corners.. And it makes him look stupid too..
Bout as stupid as saying God wouldn't forgive your sins unless Christ died (or worse yet, he had himself killed cause he was unwilling to firgive. lol. Suicide due to being unforgiving.)...
What moron does that?
A smart God would just forgive them! Geez....
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Mark Clarke
How is it God setting up man to fall? He defined what His rules were, and gave man the choice to obey or not. If you have children, and you tell them to do something, are you setting them up to fall if they disobey?
Fallen from the exalted position God originally meant for man, having dominion over His creation.
God cannot leave sin unpunished or He would not be a just and righteous judge. The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it. In His mercy God provided His Son as a sacrifice to pay for our sins. God is not only smart, but also both righteous and merciful.
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cman
not only blinded from but blinded by it....
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GarthP2000
Mark,
Have you ever considered the concept of "let the punishment fit the crime" in this subject? (A concept which is listed in the Bible, by the way) See, this was one of the things that I never considered re: the Adam and Eve in the garden with the snake situation until recently.
God tells Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge (<-- interestingly named by the way ;)) else they shall surely die (which is Clue #1 that I never considered before). Adam & Eve talk to the talking snake (which admittedly is definitely in the Weird Feng Shui Dept., I'll grant you that
), and take him up on his (ahem) 'bite my apple' offer. As per your premise of "God's gotta punish them or else He's not a Righteous God" routine, they pay the price (altho' there is a significant difference of opinion as to how is it that Adam and Eve "surely died", a topic which I shall leave for another day.
All of this raised enough questions as to the validity of God's approach to begin with. But when you consider that the punishment extends to the whole human race?! ... All who has done _nothing_ to deserve this god-of-your's wrath, ... except to be _born_? (ie., according to the "born dead in trespasses and sins" doctrine ala what is recorded in Romans.)
THAT is where the moral/ethics in this doctrine really takes a nosedive.
You say "The price for sin is death... somebody had to pay it." ... Uhhh, well, if Adam & Eve had say, molested their kids, or have done something else that was the moral/ethical equivalent thereof (<-- note the emphasis please), I would accept your argument. But what Adam & Eve did (and that _just_ according to _your written scripture's account_, keep in mind) was the equivalent of walking on the grass, or even of minor theft (picking the fruit). ... Okay, well tell me something, is minor theft like that really worthy of the death penalty in your judgment?
... of the entire human race?? :unsure: ... and even if God "sent his only begotten son to pay the price for (said) sin"? ... a price that God Himself had set to begin with? ... which leads back to my original point here.
Let the punishment fit the crime. <_<
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Tom
It was actually the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not just knowledge, & the result of eating of it was that they would be as gods. I'm not sure what that means, but it is obviously something more serious than walking on the grass. Taking God's position? Treason? As you said, Garth, letting the punishment fit the crime is after all a biblical concept.
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Sunesis
There can never be a reconciliation between one who believes and one who doesn't.
As a believer, when God says man is fallen, and, as he tells us, he created us to be masterpieces, I think of fallen man as if someone had thrown paint on the Pieta, or slashed and spattered paint on the Mona Lisa - a masterpiece that has been marred, spoilt - ruined, fallen.
I believe that Adam, had he not worshipped and given his authority to the Adversary, would have had the right to go eat of the tree of life and rule, Christ would not have been needed as Adam was fulfilling his mission (there's a reason why Christ is called the "second" Adam), and things would be totally different today.
When Adam made his choice to worship the Adversary and "become as gods", when he decided - well, God really doesn't mean it when he says it will be death if I do this - he lost something, something died - something so profound, that he tried to put it back on, via skins.
I almost think he wore his spirit for all to see. He was glorious when he walked the Garden - a masterpiece creation of God. I think it was similar as when Peter saw Jesus in his "transfigured" glorious body. Peter never forgot and mentions it in Acts. The Hope of a new body and transformation was a reality to him. He had seen it first hand.
God promises to restore us to glorious, masterpiece state. That is our Hope.
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GarthP2000
Tom,
Being the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil doesn't change it from being a tree in any event. That being said, I can imagine that the whole Adam & Eve and the Tree account is (by and large) more an allegory, illustration, or whatever, more than just a literal account (and that's for those who believe in it in the first place).
But if you read the rest of what I said, I believe I illustrated what the real problem was: setting aside whatever interpretation one might have of the incident re: Adam & Eve, ... that the punishment extended to the whole human race. (And now you throw in treason against God as Yet Another Reason to support this doctrine? ((snickers)) )
... and the punishment _still_ didn't fit the crime, particularly when you consider that the punishment extended to the whole human race.
Sunesis,
Yeah? Well, as long as the believers keep coming up with s**t like that, ... there won't.
And I note, with irony, that when all the specific arguments supporting some presumed-to-be-true theology are effectively shot down, argued against, or even questioned, then you guys always hide behind the "Well, it's one of those 'spiritual things' that you unbelievers just cannot understand. It's just something you have to take upon on faith." style arguments, coupled with the pretentious facade of being 'morally offended' that we unbelievers have the unmitigated *gaul* of bringing up these challenges (and in public, no doubt! :blink: How _dare_ we?) of your doctrine and faith to begin with. Ie., "Who are you to question God!?"
and other such flatulence.
Like I say in my status update: "Nahh. We aren't 'unworthy critters'. We ain't 'gods' either. ... We are simply human beings, with all the positive and negative. But we ain't unworthy."
Works for me. :B)
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cman
If the bible is thought of as an autobiography of the soul,
then things change perspective inherently.
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spectrum49
Gee, folks! I sure spent a lot of time on this post...somebody must have "pushed the right button"!
As with most of my writings, I would appreciate honest feedback, and gentle correction (with facts, and logic, if you please)where I may have strayed.
I would especially like to hear what you all (especially my "friends") think of my take on the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil".
I had spent quite some time years ago working to see that and have not heard it put that way before, so I believe it's a rather new idea.
If it makes some sense to any of you, do let me know - maybe it would make a good TOPIC!
SPEC
:)
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Tom
Honestly, Spec, I don't think people are meant to learn from the tree of good and evil either all at once or over the long haul. Even today, we are to be wise concerning good and simple concerning evil - avoid it. We are to be adult and wise enough spiritually to have our spiritual senses exercised to descern both good and evil, yet still wise concerning good and simple concerning evil.
If one follows evil, they will see evil - big deal. That was called genuine spiritual perception in TWI. All it did was increase unto more ungodliness. The offense multiplied. Evil led the way.
If one follows good, they will see the evil as out of course, and also see the way back to the good.
God knows.
Respect God - enjoy good - be protected from evil (the evil one).
Act like God & mess with evil - evil leads the way. Who's the fool? The one who says God is stupid and I'm smart. Same sin visited on all mankind.
Justice? Hardly, the grossest injustice. Justice comes with the one who obeyed in the face of the grossest injustice to an innocent life. Even as he is put down by man's judgement, he picks us up to where we belong & forgives us our stupidity. Gotta love the guy!
Tom
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kimberly
I have come to realize there are some Bible and spiritual things in this life I just don't know and never will and I am okey dokey with that. H-e-doublehockeysticks, I don't need to have all the answers. If I did, I might be too smart for my own britches and lose sight of all the folks in this world that need love and help.
I can not fathom looking at my fellow man as fallen or unworthy. That is why religion makes me puke. Most Christian religious denominations never go anywhere to help anybody without the mindset that those they intend to help are just that. The only reason they want to help them is to convert them. Do you think they would just go and help without that intent? Oh, let's feed them, clothe them, teach them to read so they can convert to Christianity.
WEll, I love everybody and I wasn't picking on anybody here. All this scripture bantering back and forth made me think of something I encountered today. So I just had a few things to say ...oohhhkaaaaaaay.
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Sunesis
I think "religion" makes most people puke, me included. I had enough in TWI thank you - no mas religion for me.
But, it seems to me, the whole point of the Bible, and mankind needing a personal savior, Christ, is: because man is "fallen" or whatever you would like to call it.
If mankind is not fallen - why even believe the Bible? why believe Christ? why believe in a God? It makes absolutely no sense. If I did not believe that simple, basic premise, I would not believe either. I would consider it to be a waste of time and think those poor "believers" were deluded. And, as noted, we do have people who believe this.
But, many of us accept the original premise and so thus - mankind needs a redeemer.
The Bible's whole point is: There is a new "Kingdom" coming. There is a new Heaven and Earth coming. You will need a new body for the new environment that is coming. The point is to invite all to the new Kingdom and Heaven and Earth.
Its a simple point, we can choose to believe the premise or not.
But to not believe the first point in the Bible made about mankind - he was perfect and then fell, well, why believe any of it?
I wouldn't.
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Tom
It's taken me a long time to come to face my own fallen & unworthy nature. It's a humbling experience. Life is more than food and shelter. I respect those who give that, but we need more. I need more. And it is not in me to give. I need redemption to enter into the realm of the giver of life for that. He intended more. From that we've fallen. To that he raises us up.
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GarthP2000
Sunesis, Basically, with the above portion of your post, you catch where I'm coming from quite right! :) Thank you.
Well, I don't accept 'the original premise', 'thus' the need for me to have a redeemer ... is gone.
Problem solved. ;)
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