I don't really know or remember TWI's take on it?? I am sure it was bogus.
I also feel so inadequate to speak of the persecuted church today. I will say that there are Christians in prison all over the world right now suffering for their
faith. I know that we will have persecution if we are His, but I get my feelings hurt if someone looks at me funny. These people suffer torture and sometimes
death. If we call ourselves Christian than we should be praying for the persecuted church IMHO. They pray for us. I do know this. They are the Body
of Christ and our brothers and sisters. They see amazing miracles--and when you see them they have beaming smiles.Voice of the Martyrs is a great
organization that provides lists for people to write to prisioners if you want. I write to them. Churches here also support the
persecuted church and that is another way to get involved. I also write the UN and world leaders--this
sometimes helps gain their release--if enough people write--they sometimes will let them out. It has happened. There are lists for this as well. You should really look
at their site if interested. I don't know how to link to it or I would.
I do know--through writing--someone who was recently killed for their faith. But, here, is an uncomfortable place for me to speak of this.
There is a book put out by VOM and DC TAlk called Voice of the Martyrs. Very difficult to read, but sobering as to what it means to truly serve the Lord.
These people in the persecuted church--really did help change my life. I love them.
They showed me what it means to give ones life to Christ.
There are amazing stories of the hardest of hard coming to Christ through these people and their faithful witness. There are stories of Muslims coming to the
Christians to be healed in the name of Jesus while in the same prison. Amazing Angel accounts.
I don't know how I feel about it--it is just a fact--and it is what the Lord said would happen. It does happen. More than you would think. China is a hard place to
be a Christian. With the Olympics coming up--we should be praying for them. I wear a braclet that says "Pray for China" I do everyday.
There is a real coming to Jesus moment when you learn of the personal stories of persecuted Christians--you want to talk about some veils being lifted? This
will do it. It will also have you evaluating your faith very quickly.
This part of the Church is so dear to me that I don't feel worthy enough to speak of them. I just know--they are real Christians and servants beyond me.
When I took the Advanced Class on PFAL in 1976, they played a tape of a lecture by a man who had been a missionary in Communist China when they had some kind of persecution program I think called the Great Leap Forward or something (my history is rusty, sorry). At any rate they rounded him up with a group of Christians, Jews, anyone who professed any religion and they had to be re-educated that there is no god but Mao or something. The classes took place in a building where 6 foot deep vats were sunk into the ground, with just a couple of feet protruding. These vats were filled with the feces of the villagers themselves, deposited there to compost and become the fertilizer for next spring's crops. The "teachers", actually military men, made seats by balancing boards on the tops of these vats. The "students" sat on these boards.
He told of one man, a rabbi, who flat out refused to listen, made a scene, and was immediately executed by being shoved head first up to his feet in one of the basins full of grub crawling, stinking human fecal material.
The point, however, was not that the rabbi or anyone else (there were many, many Christians executed for their faith) but the importance of memorizing scripture which is what the lecturer did to keep his sanity.
My brain kind of stopped with the rabbi's murder.
I remember praying to saints being compared to idolatry.
I think there is a balance. In some ways, many modern Protestants have lost out because we reject our church history. We need to remember that yes, from the day of Pentecost on, there were heroes of the faith who were tortured and killed for their beliefs. They were much, much, more than Sunday Christians, like many of us today. They got out there and turned the world upside down.
I seem to recall Martindale, and maybe Wierwille too, describing martyrs as people who had a death wish, possessed by spirits of death, etc.
Are there church or historical records that indicate that the martyrs sought death, rather than just accepted it as an inevitable part of preaching an unpopular faith?
Awhile ago I was interested in this and did some reading. I was surprised, besides Foxes Book of Martyrs, there's not a whole lot written about it.
I heard VP say Stephen, who was stoned to death in acts, was "tired" of living and thus wasn't able to believe to be delivered. So, since martyrdom is the antithesis of the "abundant life" promised by PFAL and VP, and didn't gibe with his "health and wealth" gospel too well, I can see why VP would blame martyrdom on the believer's lack of believing, its the martyr's fault.
I also think, yes, there are people who were/are martyred who had no business being martyred.
From what I have gleaned, true martyrdom has a result. In some way, it opens doors and moves the Word so to speak. Unbelievers see it and are changed by it. In other words, there is a purpose for it, it is almost a "calling" so to speak. That person's death has a huge impact and changes things.
From what I've also read those who were called to be martyrs, like anyone, are first afraid, then, its almost like they have been graced somehow - they are able to go their deaths looking up, at Him, and almost look forward to it - to be with Christ. I do think its a calling, and if you are to be a martyr, God will tell you and prepare you.
Many people die "for God" but it is not a true "martyr" situation. I think there's a distinction in there somewhere.
I read a sad account by a Roman centurion. His group was in charge of martyring the Christians. He finally wrote to the General, or some big honcho and basically said, why are we doing this again? Remind me. He said, they stand there, men, women, children and do nothing to defend themselves and just let his men butcher them. It was getting to him - killing innocent, helpless people. I don't think their religion mattered to him, it was killing these people, who were like sheep and didn't fight back. I imagine after awhile, you just feel like a murderer. He then wrote, but, if its your will, of course I shall continue on...
I would imagine God called those people to live. It almost I think, at one point, martyrdom became the "in" thing to do and people who had no business being martyred joined the crowd.
I think true martyrdom is a calling very few people are called to do in this administration. In the next, it will be different. Almost anyone who does believe will be martyred.
I seem to recall Martindale, and maybe Wierwille too, describing martyrs as people who had a death wish, possessed by spirits of death, etc.
Are there church or historical records that indicate that the martyrs sought death, rather than just accepted it as an inevitable part of preaching an unpopular faith?
I think some did, not becaue of a death wish but wishing to receive the rewards in heaven of a martyr. To have the honor of having died for your faith even as the Lord Jesus laid down HIS life for those who believe on HIS name.
I seem to recall Martindale, and maybe Wierwille too, describing martyrs as people who had a death wish, possessed by spirits of death, etc.
Are there church or historical records that indicate that the martyrs sought death, rather than just accepted it as an inevitable part of preaching an unpopular faith?
Actually yes. Read St. Ignatius of Antioch's (ca. 35-110 AD) Epistle to the Romans. He was tried by the Roman authorities and in his epistle he says that he desires to die. He sees his relationship with Christ as a sort of love affair, in a way. His love, Christ, he cannot get to, and he will do anything to be with his beloved, just as He has done everything to be with us. He was sentenced to death in the arena; the Roman authorities hoped by his death that he would be an example to others, to discourage people from converting to Christianity, but his journey to Rome allowed him to write letters to the churches in the area along the route, and this was his most personal letter, to the church in Rome. This will be a long quote, but please bear with me. It's truly a beautiful letter, and I encourage you to read it in its entirety.
Ignatius to the Romans, chapters 3, 4, 5, and 6:
3. It was never your way to grudge anyone his success. You have been a source of instruction to others; all I want is for the principles which you expound by your teaching to hold good now. The only petition which I would have you put forward on my behalf is that I may be given sufficient inward and outward strength to be as resolute in will as in words, and a Christian in reality instead of only in repute (though once i have the reality, I can have the repute too, and be held loyal and true even when the world can see me no longer). For good does not reside in what our eyes can see; the fact that Jesus Christ is now within the Father is why we perceive Him so much the more clearly. For the work we have to do is no affair of persuasive speaking; Christianity lies in achieving greatness in the face of the world's hatred.
4. For my part, I am writing to all the churches and assuring them that I am truly in earnest about dying for God -- if only you yourselves put no obstacles in the way. I must implore you to do me no such untimely kindness; pray leave me to be a meal for the beasts, for it is they who can provide me my way to God. I am His wheat, ground fine by the lions' teeth to be made purest bread for Christ. Better still, incite the creatures to become a sepulchre for me; let them not leave the smallest scrap of my flesh, so that I need not be a burden to anyone after I fall asleep. When there is no trace of my body left for the world to see, then I shall truly be Jesus Christ's disciple. So intercede with Him for me, that by their instrumentality I may be made a sacrifice to God. However, I am not issuing orders to you, as though I were a Peter or a Paul. They were Apostles, and I am a condemned criminal. They were free men, and I am still a slave (though if I suffer, Jesus Christ will give me liberty, and in Him I shall rise again as a free man). For the present, these chains are schooling me to have done with earthly desires.
5. All the same, I have already been finding myself in conflict with beasts of prey by land and sea, by night and by day, the whole way from Syria to Rome; chained as I am to half-a-score of savage leopards (in other words, a detachment of soldiers), who only grow more insolent the more gratuities they are given. Still, their ill-usage does at least enable me to make some progress in discipleship; though I am not thereby justified. (I Cor. 4:4)How I look forward to the real lions that have been got ready for me! All I pray is that I may find them swift. I am going to make overtures to them, so that, unlike some other wretches whom they have been too spiritless to touch, they may devour me with all speed. And if they are still reluctant, I shall use force to them. You must forgive me, but I do know what is best for myself. This is the first stage of my discipleship; and no power, visible or invisible, must grudge me my coming to Jesus Christ. Fire, cross, beast-fighting, hacking and quartering, splintering of bone and mangling of limb, even the pulverizing of my entire body -- let every horrid and diabolical torment come upon me, provided that I can win my way to Jesus Christ.
6. All the ends of the earth, all the kingdoms of the world would be of no profit to me; so far as I am concerned, to die in Jesus Christ is better than to be monarch of earth's widest bounds. He who died for us is all that I seek; He who rose again for us my whole desire. The pangs of birth are upon me; have patience with me, my brothers, and do not shut me out from life, do not wish me to be stillborn. Here is one who only longs to be God's; do not make a present of him to the world again, or delude him with the things of the earth. Suffer me to attain to light, light pure and undefiled; for only when I am come thither shall I be truly a man. Leave me to imitate the Passion of my God. If any of you has God within himself, let that man understand my longings, and feel for me, because he will know he forces by which I am constrained.
Even today, I see people of various faiths who like being persecuted, it defines them. I realize that this is different than seeking death, but it seems like it's just more so with death-seeking martyrs.
Awhile ago I was interested in this and did some reading. I was surprised, besides Foxes Book of Martyrs, there's not a whole lot written about it.
I heard VP say Stephen, who was stoned to death in acts, was "tired" of living and thus wasn't able to believe to be delivered. So, since martyrdom is the antithesis of the "abundant life" promised by PFAL and VP, and didn't gibe with his "health and wealth" gospel too well, I can see why VP would blame martyrdom on the believer's lack of believing, its the martyr's fault.
I also think, yes, there are people who were/are martyred who had no business being martyred.
From what I have gleaned, true martyrdom has a result. In some way, it opens doors and moves the Word so to speak. Unbelievers see it and are changed by it. In other words, there is a purpose for it, it is almost a "calling" so to speak. That person's death has a huge impact and changes things.
From what I've also read those who were called to be martyrs, like anyone, are first afraid, then, its almost like they have been graced somehow - they are able to go their deaths looking up, at Him, and almost look forward to it - to be with Christ. I do think its a calling, and if you are to be a martyr, God will tell you and prepare you.
Many people die "for God" but it is not a true "martyr" situation. I think there's a distinction in there somewhere.
I read a sad account by a Roman centurion. His group was in charge of martyring the Christians. He finally wrote to the General, or some big honcho and basically said, why are we doing this again? Remind me. He said, they stand there, men, women, children and do nothing to defend themselves and just let his men butcher them. It was getting to him - killing innocent, helpless people. I don't think their religion mattered to him, it was killing these people, who were like sheep and didn't fight back. I imagine after awhile, you just feel like a murderer. He then wrote, but, if its your will, of course I shall continue on...
I would imagine God called those people to live. It almost I think, at one point, martyrdom became the "in" thing to do and people who had no business being martyred joined the crowd.
I think true martyrdom is a calling very few people are called to do in this administration. In the next, it will be different. Almost anyone who does believe will be martyred.
I don't know if I would agree that martyrdom became simply the "in" thing to do, and technically a martyr is anyone who is killed for their faith, regardless of whether they seek death or not. The early Christians of the first three centuries and of the centuries after, clergy and laymen alike, had a faith in God much unlike what we see in people today. It was a harsher world, they had more things to worry about, like invading armies and for the early Christians the Roman persecutions were an obvious thing to worry about. To say it was simply something that was "in" is to say that their faith was nothing more than an outward show, which for them, it was much more; much more than people see Christianity as today, anyway.
In the chatroom last night, in part of the discussion we were having, martyrdom came up briefly. Someone said that TWI does not glorify martyrs in any sense of the word, and sees the Apostles' untimely deaths as just evidence of how little their "believing" was.
(snip)
So it's pretty obvious that martyrdom is a big thing in all three major branches of Christianity, it's always been a high honor to die for your faith. With this, my puzzlement is at TWI's insistence that all of the Apostles, and by extension these people and millions of other Christians throughout the ages, were just not "believing" enough. Could someone elaborate on TWI's take on this? What do you believe now regarding dying for the faith?
~Phil
Well,
there's a subject I've heard vpw teach on ("Believing-Hebrews 11") and Chris G teach on
("God's Roll Call of Honour.") Both covered the same verses, but both had radically
different conclusions on the martyrs mentioned at the end of Hebrews 11.
==========================
KJV
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
===================
NASB
32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
================
cg taught that the "deliverance" they didn't accept in 11:35 was a SECULAR one-meaning that
the prophets could have accepted that "deliverance" by giving up to the people who tortured
them- but instead remained faithful to God, and, as such, remained worthy of
"a better resurrection."
vpw made it clear how he saw the verses.
vpw said the prophets COULD have been delivered-that is, GOD could have
delivered them from the torture if they had asked-
but they turned down the opportunity for deliverance, and instead preferred
to die so they could cut out further living until the "better resurrection."
He then went into how sometimes people "get tired of the fight," and just get
too tired to go on.
Of the two, I think cg had the right of it.
But vpw's position is pretty clear here- if a prophet wasn't delivered, it was due to a failing
of the prophet- either he had disobeyed God and was now outside God's protection,
or failed to believe sufficiently for deliverance.
It's of a piece with how he viewed Paul's imprisonment in Jerusalem-he was clear he
thought Paul stepped out from under God's protection, and thus was imprisoned.
Therefore, although before that, all of Asia Minor had heard God's Word in 2 years, 3 months,
now, the closest Paul can get is someone saying "Almost you persuade me to be a Christian."
Job's suffering, of course, was due to his FEAR-his "negative believing."
I don't recall much teaching about martyrs. It wasn't something that got taught in the Martindale years. LCM was more interested in devil spirits/genuine spiritual suspicion (!). As with VPW, what other Christians (at any time) did or suffered really didn't matter.
The things Wordwolf says are familiar. I have heard both views. Thre are probably also other constructions - depending on what other churches teach.
Geisha makes a good point, about the sufferings endured by Christian churches in some other countries. They stand firm despite the certain knowledge of persecution. The little churches (usually in someone's home) are growing. That means people must be witnessing, holding forth the gospel convincingly enough that people WANT to know more despite the likelihood of persecution. Think of China, India, many Muslim countries. People are imprisoned, beaten, killed.
And we in the "more advanced" societies of the west...are afraid to mention the gospel to the next door neighbour, in case they just don't like it.
Well, I probably shouldn't have phrased it, that it became an "in" thing to do.
But I do know, that many people did believe if they died, they would have a "better" resurrection, and I can see how a Christian would think martyrdom offered the most, and ultimate "rewards" and would run to do it. Don't we see the same thing today in other religions?
I forget where I read it, but there were many, many Christians, looking for martyrdom. That said, they did go through a wave of 10 awful persecutions in the first century and are still being killed today. Just like many of us "ran to serve" - so, I think many Christians "ran to die."
I don't know, I need to find more info on it.
But I find it interesting, where martyrdom is talked about in Hebrews, it was prophets, and men who spoke for God martyred. Maybe that's something to study.
Awhile ago I was interested in this and did some reading. I was surprised, besides Foxes Book of Martyrs, there's not a whole lot written about it.
I heard VP say Stephen, who was stoned to death in acts, was "tired" of living and thus wasn't able to believe to be delivered. So, since martyrdom is the antithesis of the "abundant life" promised by PFAL and VP, and didn't gibe with his "health and wealth" gospel too well, I can see why VP would blame martyrdom on the believer's lack of believing, its the martyr's fault.
Well why does this not SURPRIZE me!!!!!! EWWWW makes me crazy. When I read the account of Stephen--I was pretty much punched in the gut by this thought. Jesus was SEATED at the right hand of God. SEATED. When Stephen looked up Jesus was STANDING for Stephen. This shows the great love and respect He has for the sacrifice of His martyrs. He mentions one by name in Revelation I think.
Stephens death must have had a great impact on Paul and his ministry. A real purpose. VP had things so backwards. How did I EVER buy his YUCK!
When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
Stephens death must have had a great impact on Paul and his ministry. A real purpose. VP had things so backwards. How did I EVER buy his YUCK!
I heard Wierwille say many times to "Present your bodies a living sacrifice... anybody can die!, its says to live! you're no good to God dead" --- or some variation on that...
seems like everytime he read that section of Romans he'd go way out of his way to overemphasize his take on the 'Living' part of it, I dont recall once ever hearing him make a big deal (or any deal at all)out of the 'sacrifice' part--he always skipped right over that
I don't see the purpose of offering up our life, in general ... but some things are worth fighting for ... you only need the first 100 seconds of this .. but it's all good ... maybe that really was the greatest generation ... or maybe it is all crap ... sigh ...
Well, I probably shouldn't have phrased it, that it became an "in" thing to do.
But I do know, that many people did believe if they died, they would have a "better" resurrection, and I can see how a Christian would think martyrdom offered the most, and ultimate "rewards" and would run to do it. Don't we see the same thing today in other religions?
I forget where I read it, but there were many, many Christians, looking for martyrdom. That said, they did go through a wave of 10 awful persecutions in the first century and are still being killed today. Just like many of us "ran to serve" - so, I think many Christians "ran to die."
I don't know, I need to find more info on it.
But I find it interesting, where martyrdom is talked about in Hebrews, it was prophets, and men who spoke for God martyred. Maybe that's something to study.
Oh yes, many Christians looked for martyrdom. In fact, even St. Paul did. Read Acts 20:13-21:16, Philippians 1:19-26, and II Timothy 4:6-18. But I'd have to do a bit more research myself to get some other extra-biblical records. Most of the records of martyrdom are in the lives of saints or hagiographies (see Synaxarion) recorded by Church historians.
I heard Wierwille say many times to "Present your bodies a living sacrifice... anybody can die!, its says to live! you're no good to God dead" --- or some variation on that...
seems like everytime he read that section of Romans he'd go way out of his way to overemphasize his take on the 'Living' part of it, I dont recall once ever hearing him make a big deal (or any deal at all)out of the 'sacrifice' part--he always skipped right over that
Interesting. Docvic DIED from something he claimed was devil possession.
He didn't live the *70 years*, God promised to man.
What kinda *living sacrifice* did he ever present, eh???
And now that I think about it, wasn't he made out to be the martyr upon his death,
and WE were made to take the blame for his *giving up on the *ministry*????
Interesting. Docvic DIED from something he claimed was devil possession.
He didn't live the *70 years*, God promised to man.
What kinda *living sacrifice* did he ever present, eh???
And now that I think about it, wasn't he made out to be the martyr upon his death,
and WE were made to take the blame for his *giving up on the *ministry*????
What a fluster cluck!
Shortly after vpw's death.......I vividly remember Howard Allen eulogizing wierwille at a staff/corps meeting and stating that, in reality, wierwille lived 136 years BECAUSE wierwille put in twice the heart and effort of other men (68 X 2 = 136).
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geisha779
I don't really know or remember TWI's take on it?? I am sure it was bogus.
I also feel so inadequate to speak of the persecuted church today. I will say that there are Christians in prison all over the world right now suffering for their
faith. I know that we will have persecution if we are His, but I get my feelings hurt if someone looks at me funny. These people suffer torture and sometimes
death. If we call ourselves Christian than we should be praying for the persecuted church IMHO. They pray for us. I do know this. They are the Body
of Christ and our brothers and sisters. They see amazing miracles--and when you see them they have beaming smiles.Voice of the Martyrs is a great
organization that provides lists for people to write to prisioners if you want. I write to them. Churches here also support the
persecuted church and that is another way to get involved. I also write the UN and world leaders--this
sometimes helps gain their release--if enough people write--they sometimes will let them out. It has happened. There are lists for this as well. You should really look
at their site if interested. I don't know how to link to it or I would.
I do know--through writing--someone who was recently killed for their faith. But, here, is an uncomfortable place for me to speak of this.
There is a book put out by VOM and DC TAlk called Voice of the Martyrs. Very difficult to read, but sobering as to what it means to truly serve the Lord.
These people in the persecuted church--really did help change my life. I love them.
They showed me what it means to give ones life to Christ.
There are amazing stories of the hardest of hard coming to Christ through these people and their faithful witness. There are stories of Muslims coming to the
Christians to be healed in the name of Jesus while in the same prison. Amazing Angel accounts.
I don't know how I feel about it--it is just a fact--and it is what the Lord said would happen. It does happen. More than you would think. China is a hard place to
be a Christian. With the Olympics coming up--we should be praying for them. I wear a braclet that says "Pray for China" I do everyday.
There is a real coming to Jesus moment when you learn of the personal stories of persecuted Christians--you want to talk about some veils being lifted? This
will do it. It will also have you evaluating your faith very quickly.
This part of the Church is so dear to me that I don't feel worthy enough to speak of them. I just know--they are real Christians and servants beyond me.
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Watered Garden
When I took the Advanced Class on PFAL in 1976, they played a tape of a lecture by a man who had been a missionary in Communist China when they had some kind of persecution program I think called the Great Leap Forward or something (my history is rusty, sorry). At any rate they rounded him up with a group of Christians, Jews, anyone who professed any religion and they had to be re-educated that there is no god but Mao or something. The classes took place in a building where 6 foot deep vats were sunk into the ground, with just a couple of feet protruding. These vats were filled with the feces of the villagers themselves, deposited there to compost and become the fertilizer for next spring's crops. The "teachers", actually military men, made seats by balancing boards on the tops of these vats. The "students" sat on these boards.
He told of one man, a rabbi, who flat out refused to listen, made a scene, and was immediately executed by being shoved head first up to his feet in one of the basins full of grub crawling, stinking human fecal material.
The point, however, was not that the rabbi or anyone else (there were many, many Christians executed for their faith) but the importance of memorizing scripture which is what the lecturer did to keep his sanity.
My brain kind of stopped with the rabbi's murder.
I remember praying to saints being compared to idolatry.
I think there is a balance. In some ways, many modern Protestants have lost out because we reject our church history. We need to remember that yes, from the day of Pentecost on, there were heroes of the faith who were tortured and killed for their beliefs. They were much, much, more than Sunday Christians, like many of us today. They got out there and turned the world upside down.
WG
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Oakspear
I seem to recall Martindale, and maybe Wierwille too, describing martyrs as people who had a death wish, possessed by spirits of death, etc.
Are there church or historical records that indicate that the martyrs sought death, rather than just accepted it as an inevitable part of preaching an unpopular faith?
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Sunesis
Awhile ago I was interested in this and did some reading. I was surprised, besides Foxes Book of Martyrs, there's not a whole lot written about it.
I heard VP say Stephen, who was stoned to death in acts, was "tired" of living and thus wasn't able to believe to be delivered. So, since martyrdom is the antithesis of the "abundant life" promised by PFAL and VP, and didn't gibe with his "health and wealth" gospel too well, I can see why VP would blame martyrdom on the believer's lack of believing, its the martyr's fault.
I also think, yes, there are people who were/are martyred who had no business being martyred.
From what I have gleaned, true martyrdom has a result. In some way, it opens doors and moves the Word so to speak. Unbelievers see it and are changed by it. In other words, there is a purpose for it, it is almost a "calling" so to speak. That person's death has a huge impact and changes things.
From what I've also read those who were called to be martyrs, like anyone, are first afraid, then, its almost like they have been graced somehow - they are able to go their deaths looking up, at Him, and almost look forward to it - to be with Christ. I do think its a calling, and if you are to be a martyr, God will tell you and prepare you.
Many people die "for God" but it is not a true "martyr" situation. I think there's a distinction in there somewhere.
I read a sad account by a Roman centurion. His group was in charge of martyring the Christians. He finally wrote to the General, or some big honcho and basically said, why are we doing this again? Remind me. He said, they stand there, men, women, children and do nothing to defend themselves and just let his men butcher them. It was getting to him - killing innocent, helpless people. I don't think their religion mattered to him, it was killing these people, who were like sheep and didn't fight back. I imagine after awhile, you just feel like a murderer. He then wrote, but, if its your will, of course I shall continue on...
I would imagine God called those people to live. It almost I think, at one point, martyrdom became the "in" thing to do and people who had no business being martyred joined the crowd.
I think true martyrdom is a calling very few people are called to do in this administration. In the next, it will be different. Almost anyone who does believe will be martyred.
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brideofjc
I think some did, not becaue of a death wish but wishing to receive the rewards in heaven of a martyr. To have the honor of having died for your faith even as the Lord Jesus laid down HIS life for those who believe on HIS name.
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Brushstroke
Actually yes. Read St. Ignatius of Antioch's (ca. 35-110 AD) Epistle to the Romans. He was tried by the Roman authorities and in his epistle he says that he desires to die. He sees his relationship with Christ as a sort of love affair, in a way. His love, Christ, he cannot get to, and he will do anything to be with his beloved, just as He has done everything to be with us. He was sentenced to death in the arena; the Roman authorities hoped by his death that he would be an example to others, to discourage people from converting to Christianity, but his journey to Rome allowed him to write letters to the churches in the area along the route, and this was his most personal letter, to the church in Rome. This will be a long quote, but please bear with me. It's truly a beautiful letter, and I encourage you to read it in its entirety.
Ignatius to the Romans, chapters 3, 4, 5, and 6:
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Oakspear
Thank you Sunesis, your post makes sense to me.
Even today, I see people of various faiths who like being persecuted, it defines them. I realize that this is different than seeking death, but it seems like it's just more so with death-seeking martyrs.
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Brushstroke
I don't know if I would agree that martyrdom became simply the "in" thing to do, and technically a martyr is anyone who is killed for their faith, regardless of whether they seek death or not. The early Christians of the first three centuries and of the centuries after, clergy and laymen alike, had a faith in God much unlike what we see in people today. It was a harsher world, they had more things to worry about, like invading armies and for the early Christians the Roman persecutions were an obvious thing to worry about. To say it was simply something that was "in" is to say that their faith was nothing more than an outward show, which for them, it was much more; much more than people see Christianity as today, anyway.
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waysider
My knowledge on the subject of martyrs is minimal to non existent.
I can tell you this, though, Brushstroke, TWI taught that praying to Patron Saints was the same as praying to Devil Spirits.
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WordWolf
Well,
there's a subject I've heard vpw teach on ("Believing-Hebrews 11") and Chris G teach on
("God's Roll Call of Honour.") Both covered the same verses, but both had radically
different conclusions on the martyrs mentioned at the end of Hebrews 11.
==========================
KJV
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
===================
NASB
32And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
33who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
================
cg taught that the "deliverance" they didn't accept in 11:35 was a SECULAR one-meaning that
the prophets could have accepted that "deliverance" by giving up to the people who tortured
them- but instead remained faithful to God, and, as such, remained worthy of
"a better resurrection."
vpw made it clear how he saw the verses.
vpw said the prophets COULD have been delivered-that is, GOD could have
delivered them from the torture if they had asked-
but they turned down the opportunity for deliverance, and instead preferred
to die so they could cut out further living until the "better resurrection."
He then went into how sometimes people "get tired of the fight," and just get
too tired to go on.
Of the two, I think cg had the right of it.
But vpw's position is pretty clear here- if a prophet wasn't delivered, it was due to a failing
of the prophet- either he had disobeyed God and was now outside God's protection,
or failed to believe sufficiently for deliverance.
It's of a piece with how he viewed Paul's imprisonment in Jerusalem-he was clear he
thought Paul stepped out from under God's protection, and thus was imprisoned.
Therefore, although before that, all of Asia Minor had heard God's Word in 2 years, 3 months,
now, the closest Paul can get is someone saying "Almost you persuade me to be a Christian."
Job's suffering, of course, was due to his FEAR-his "negative believing."
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Twinky
I don't recall much teaching about martyrs. It wasn't something that got taught in the Martindale years. LCM was more interested in devil spirits/genuine spiritual suspicion (!). As with VPW, what other Christians (at any time) did or suffered really didn't matter.
The things Wordwolf says are familiar. I have heard both views. Thre are probably also other constructions - depending on what other churches teach.
Geisha makes a good point, about the sufferings endured by Christian churches in some other countries. They stand firm despite the certain knowledge of persecution. The little churches (usually in someone's home) are growing. That means people must be witnessing, holding forth the gospel convincingly enough that people WANT to know more despite the likelihood of persecution. Think of China, India, many Muslim countries. People are imprisoned, beaten, killed.
And we in the "more advanced" societies of the west...are afraid to mention the gospel to the next door neighbour, in case they just don't like it.
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Sunesis
Well, I probably shouldn't have phrased it, that it became an "in" thing to do.
But I do know, that many people did believe if they died, they would have a "better" resurrection, and I can see how a Christian would think martyrdom offered the most, and ultimate "rewards" and would run to do it. Don't we see the same thing today in other religions?
I forget where I read it, but there were many, many Christians, looking for martyrdom. That said, they did go through a wave of 10 awful persecutions in the first century and are still being killed today. Just like many of us "ran to serve" - so, I think many Christians "ran to die."
I don't know, I need to find more info on it.
But I find it interesting, where martyrdom is talked about in Hebrews, it was prophets, and men who spoke for God martyred. Maybe that's something to study.
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geisha779
Well why does this not SURPRIZE me!!!!!! EWWWW makes me crazy. When I read the account of Stephen--I was pretty much punched in the gut by this thought. Jesus was SEATED at the right hand of God. SEATED. When Stephen looked up Jesus was STANDING for Stephen. This shows the great love and respect He has for the sacrifice of His martyrs. He mentions one by name in Revelation I think.
Stephens death must have had a great impact on Paul and his ministry. A real purpose. VP had things so backwards. How did I EVER buy his YUCK!
When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.
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mstar1
I heard Wierwille say many times to "Present your bodies a living sacrifice... anybody can die!, its says to live! you're no good to God dead" --- or some variation on that...
seems like everytime he read that section of Romans he'd go way out of his way to overemphasize his take on the 'Living' part of it, I dont recall once ever hearing him make a big deal (or any deal at all)out of the 'sacrifice' part--he always skipped right over that
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rhino
I don't see the purpose of offering up our life, in general ... but some things are worth fighting for ... you only need the first 100 seconds of this .. but it's all good ... maybe that really was the greatest generation ... or maybe it is all crap ... sigh ...
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Brushstroke
Oh yes, many Christians looked for martyrdom. In fact, even St. Paul did. Read Acts 20:13-21:16, Philippians 1:19-26, and II Timothy 4:6-18. But I'd have to do a bit more research myself to get some other extra-biblical records. Most of the records of martyrdom are in the lives of saints or hagiographies (see Synaxarion) recorded by Church historians.
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dmiller
Interesting. Docvic DIED from something he claimed was devil possession.
He didn't live the *70 years*, God promised to man.
What kinda *living sacrifice* did he ever present, eh???
And now that I think about it, wasn't he made out to be the martyr upon his death,
and WE were made to take the blame for his *giving up on the *ministry*????
What a fluster cluck!
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skyrider
Shortly after vpw's death.......I vividly remember Howard Allen eulogizing wierwille at a staff/corps meeting and stating that, in reality, wierwille lived 136 years BECAUSE wierwille put in twice the heart and effort of other men (68 X 2 = 136).
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