Satanic Blindness

[Dot Matrix]

This is not an open invitation -

This is for those who love God and are not Way defenders, I would like to NOT extend an invitation to this thread as it is important to me, and I do not want the same old denial to ruin things. So, please I am asking this thread to only draw people who recognize TWI was a cult.

I was reading a thing on the net that struck me. It speaks of satanic blindness. Now, this hit home because MANY of my WAY friends including myself have gotten to the point after leaving TWI where they could not read the Bible and understand it.

They/I would say it is almost like a cloud or a veil would hang between me and the scriptures - so I read Christian books.

I THINK in the middle of all the wrong doctrine, in the fourth dimension, perhaps we were having spiritual bad things happening to us, such as a satanic veil laid across our minds. A satanic blindness so we could not read the scriptures but only “their” interpretation on them.

A friend of mine, who has his doctorate in theology – a brilliant man, recently pushed and pushed me to read the BIBLE stop all the extraneous stuff. In the middle of this coaxing, he was sharing Romans with me. And frankly I could not get the depth of what he taught. Some things I saw and WOW it was wonderful but as he grew excited about certain things I just did not get the understanding.

I asked him how he got to SEE all that and he spoke of the WORD as living words and how he asks God to reveal things to him. HE prays and when stuck, many times there is much study and sometimes he goes to sleep and God reveals the answer to him.

I mean how wonderful that the FIRST thing he does before he reads the word is goes to God for understanding. I do not ever recall praying for understanding in any of TWI meetings. Because arrogantly the ministry claimed to “have the keys” and “the truth”.

Simple things like inviting God to the reading and understanding of his book – is simple yet crucial. So, we as peon believers did not have to ask God to help us with scriptures but this brilliant guy with his doctorate humbly did each time he read the Bible…. hmmmm

So, I tried to see from his eyes the word of God. Because I was afraid to look after the evil detour the cult took me on. I do not think I trusted my own walk with God and brain. I do think the groundwork for this was laid in TWI. (I am asking for this not to be jumped on by Way defenders but that we remain in the topic of Satanic blindness)

Let’s just look at some of the scripture in this study:

2 Corinthians 4

Paul's Apostolic Ministry

1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,

2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;

8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;

9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;

10 always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body.

11 For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

12 So death works in us, but life in you.

13 But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE," we also believe, therefore we also speak,

14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.

15 For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,

18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Here it is. And it speaks of those who are perishing the word is “apolluni” perish. It has not necessarily been translated as those going to hell, or those who will never be born again, or who have not been born again. It speaks of “loose” “loose away” destroy and if is also speaking of “to be lost” or to be “marred”

"In whom the god [sATAN] of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the Image of God, should shine unto them" (II Cor. 4:4).

When the deception is taken away, people will understand

Next, notice what Jesus Himself says would happen if this Satanic blindness were removed:

"For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed [Why? Why are their eyes ‘closed?’ Because, "the god of this world has BLINDED… them…" That’s why] lest at ANY TIME they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should BE CONVERTED, and I should HEAL them" (Matt. 13:15).

When Satan blinds the minds of people, they "believe NOT." And they cannot repent, be converted, or saved until the blindness is lifted and they are given a knowledge of the Truth. Or perhaps after salvation the veil robs them of the life they should have has with Jesus!!! I think this is what happened to many of us!

When first in the WAY, under BG Leonard’s class renamed Power for Abundant Living and marketed by Weirwille, my friends and I absorbed the words of the word of God like a sponge. It was after the groundwork was laid that VP had some special gift that had not been known since the first century, that we accepted weird azz things like the entire Christian Family and sex class. The whole masturbation thing being the first sin – ya know the tree on the ground and saw it was good or some like crap… I think this was the first class I started to have a cloud. I could not understand any other references he made to the Bible to support his theology, but being as the Power for Abundant living (PFAL) class was so delivering, I was inclined to think I was some how stupid and just did not get the greatness being taught. In a way, this began my liturgy attitude toward the Way (TWI) and I became more accepting of things that were just plain WRONG. And if I knew they were wrong I tried to fight them but somehow was kept in my place by this deadness to the scriptures in part. I studied the scriptures to confront Weirwille and when I did he just twisted the scriptures back at me.

Then, there was corps night. We were listening to the elite unfolding of scripture – or that was the marketing campaign, anyway. When in reality it was perverted, subverted, and covertly leaked to us as nutrition was really poison to further make us feel small in our understanding to the largeness of their great revelations. Or how about LCM (MAN of GOD after VP) his command of the English language? He would say a paragraph or two with no commas, periods, etc. The sentences were delivered with such authority that had to be truth – but when pulled apart by a mere English chart you could clearly see they made no sense. But we bought it as his being spiritual and someday we too will understand these great truths. But most of my friends HATED corps night because they were boring, sleep promoting, unscriptural crap research.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savour; Who WILL have all men to be saved [and just how might that come about?], and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH" (I Tim. 2:4).

I was saved but in the hallways of Weirwille adulation and wrong doctrines, I never came to a knowledge of the truth at least to the point which God offers us because of this veil inflicted upon us by the false prophets. And I dare say, that when I picked up the Bible, as did many of my friends upon their Exodus we could not read, enjoy or understand the scripture because something was placed on us – “Spiritual blindness”

I think we became sick in TWI, we did not have the light shine into us once we were taken from the foundational things BG Leonard had taught and brought into Weirwille’s own crazy research.

We had Jesus removed as a personal relationship, we had the KEYS so why ask God to help us understand – that was viewed as “private interpretation” and that was shunned.

If we got excited about how the living words pertain to us personally – it was a violation of

2 Peter 1:21 (King James Version)

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

This was used to get us to research but then used to prevent us from thinking or allowing God to have free reign over his book and what he reveals to us.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Dot Matrix

[Dot Matrix]

I bring up TWI as we were in it. There are many places where satan lulls people to sleep. Many denominations etc. So, my point is the word perish does not mean those who are not going to hell, necessarily it can mean those born again then shuffled back into the body of death – those who never understand what the resurrected body of Christ brought TO US!

But you can get born again and immediately shuffled off into some weird organization who does not allow the truth of God to shine and you can "perish."

Edited August 1, 2008 by Dot Matrix

[waysider]

I remember frequently hearing people pray for God to open their "eyes of understanding" before the twig teaching began.

I also recall that we were encouraged to pray likewise before a private study session.

Maybe it was more of a localized thing, I don't know.

It was a long time ago, well before most of us suspected what a snake's nest we were dealing with.

[Dot Matrix]

Waysider

You were fortunate. Was that in the early days?

Just curious. As I do not recall that kind of prayer. And I certainly did not bring it into my personal life from the way. A lot of my prayer life was developed in early childhood Bible school and later the pentecostals.

I was NEVER told or I do not recall ever being told for the eyes of my understanding to be opened.

Boy, were you lucky!

[Tom]

Hi Dot (& Waysider again :D),

Like Waysider, I remember in the early days being told to ask God for understanding before fellowships. It worked! A look at the previous verses in Ch. 3 of 2 Cor. helps:

2 Corinthians 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ [the vail is done away in Christ - Jesus Christ was "the absent Christ" in TWI - the resulting legalism with VP as the head of the body replacing Christ put the vail back over our hearts].

15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart [that's where the blindness comes in - in the heart when Jesus & God don't live there. The heart is the area of Jesus' work hooking us up with the Father in our identity with His son].

16  Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away [sounds like your friend had the right idea].

17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord [some living Word in that verse - changing the viewer into the same image as her Lord as she sees him in the Word as in a mirror beholding her new identity in Christ].

So good to "see" you again, Dot. I've missed you.

[Sunesis]

Hello Dot, what a wonderful post. I know when I left TWI, I just put my Bible down for a long time, a couple of years.

But, the first thing I learned when I went back was: Christ.

TWI never taught us Christ. We were taught about this Jesus who was human like we are and had an extra dose of Holy Spirit.

It was John 1:1-4 that opened my eyes - Christ was God's Tabernacle, or Temple, on earth - Christ was God with us. The Word was God, the WORD WAS MADE FLESH. Whoa... that blew my little mind.

Christ not only had humanity, he was divine.

I did a word study - He is the apokalypse - the unveiler - literally - the one who takes away the veil.

TWI never taught us that. He was a character up in the sky, coming back someday, so, no need really to talk with him and let Him into your heart today.

Christ opens our eyes and enlightens our hearts - He is, the unveiler.

Its not the Word, or teachers - its Christ. That's who teaches us.

Ask Him to teach you. Just things, it doesn't necessarily have to be "the Word."

When he becomes our center, our life, as we are his, He opens our eyes and we have no need that anyone teach us.

I just think TWI's biggest tragedy is it did not teach us Christ - in all of his Glory or divinity. We wouldn't want Christ to steal Wierwille's thunder now, would we?

[bowtwi]

Absolutely! This is how it was for me - for well over 10 years after twi kicked me out. Before that I had a passion for reading the Word, a passion for learning what I could, and a passion for sharing what I'd learned with others who wanted to learn the same. I lost all that the instant I was told God wanted nothing to do with me.

Now today, 14 years later (well, for about the past year now), I'm starting to feel that desire again to learn the Word, to unlearn the wrong things I thought were right, and to replace them with what God wants me to know. The veil is definitely lifting. I've been attending church for 2 months now each week and am having a blast in the Sunday School class where everyone is welcome to their own ideas and conclusions and every one is still welcome back the next week even if they don't believe exactly as the preacher does.

I believe it's all coming back - all the passion I once enjoyed for learning God's Word.

[Dot Matrix]

I recall reading this and thinking it was not applicable to me because I was born again. I was not perishing - but apparently I was. If you are a spiritual being and denied spiritual food - you perish. Or are marred or lost. Perhaps not forever but until the veil comes off, to what God really wants you to do!

[Tom]

All God really wants us to do is believe on the one whom he sent.

And many of us did until TWI talked us out of it.

Some years after I "got out," my wife's best friend - another extwi - came to visit. She was happy, blessed, & SPIRITUAL. She brought us a gift of a CD of some of the popular Christian music that was out at the time (that I didn't listen to).

While she was there, I had an errand, & she handed me the CD to listen to as I left the house

I didn't go straight home, but drove around after the errand, listening to the CD. One song in particular was praising Jesus, &, as I listened to it - there is no better way to describe it than the vail came off my heart, & I remembered that this was the Jesus that I had first been turned on to when I got involved with The Way before VP made his power play & replaced the joints and bands of the Body of Christ that were ministering the living Christ to me with the iron "guidelines" of the Way Tree. My heart welled up with the joy of seeing my loving Lord again, & I balled my eyes out as I drove along.

Jesus is the Way. Boy, did we get talked out of that one.

But he still is. And the living Word of God.

[JeffSjo]

Dear Dot,

Thank you for this thread.

I think that there are a lot of people that try to wield the sword of doctrine as it concerns these things that you bring up. My honest assessment of the situation is that all these bickering Christians cannot all be correct as they accuse one another using the same scriptures. I don't see that in you or this thread however and I am glad for the considerations you offer.

In spite of the conflict that often accompanies these things I believe that they are true and something to be sought after and hopefully by the grace of God, something that we can get right.

[RainbowsGirl]

((((Dot)))) You have done an excellent job!

You have done a wonderful job with this thread and it all ring so very true and is so crystal clear in GOD's Word!

For the past few years I have struggled too, to understand GOD's Word beyond TWI's abuses and errors of it's usage! I started trying to just read it and study it on my own. It was

difficult at best, as old TWI clichés, whether or not word based would creep in to distract me and lead me off in various tangents.

Then I decided to listen to audio commentaries verse be verse using blue Letter Bible .Com I like the background history and detail that they provide. Hey and praying and talking to

GOD first wakes me up spiritual...I just need more consistency with that!

Then I read it on my own and I am amazed at how much my understanding has increased. I only hope and pray that there is enough time left for me to relearn and recover

myself too!

Right now I am working on Daniel and Revelation and do we all remember that we were taught not bother reading Revelation....which is definitely wrong teaching after you really study

it:

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

I hope and pray that EVERYONE reads this and ponders it deeply and recovers themselves as well!!!

Great Job Dot!!! GOD Bless Your loving and thoughtful heart!!!

[cman]

Hey Dot and all,

Interesting and very cool that you bring up this Dot.

2 Peter 1:21 (King James Version)

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost

I believe scripture is a result of the Word or Christ or the Spirit within.

Scripture is not the Word or Prophecy, according to that verse.

'came not in old time'

It's a continual now. Always everything now.

Being a part of this Moving Spirit is plenty for now.

'by the will of man'

All our knowledge of all things will not make the Spirit move.

It's all moving now, all at the same time.

'now is the day of salvation'

Always will be.

However one get's to 'see' and 'hear' and more.

Whatever it is, is still there.

'holy men of God'

Not by man's will at all.

But as the Spirit's will makes one holy.

'spake'

Not written.

Though the writings can ignite the Holy Spirit in you.

Then it's being spoken by the Holy Spirit.

Moved by the Holy Spirit

In the Spirit

The Spirit came upon me.

....

The Spirit has it's will and blows where it's listened.

Like a trumpet or shout or whisper or flame or angel.

@

And so....................................

Blindness?

Something else has our attention. Or limit.

Cause it's here and now.....

All of it.....taken in small doses leads to wider eyes and opening ears.

Or as a shout in a blink of an eye, our understanding is forever changed.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

I AM...whether we see it or not.

[Eyesopen]

Satanic blindness, what an interesting concept. I also had read those verses and thought that they did not pertain to me. But I like so many others put my Bible aside for many years after leaving twi. After all I no longer needed to read it I had all the answers. But when I did pick it up again the scriptures unfolded to me like a wonderful exotic flower in all of its glorious colors and grandure.

The one thing that really hit home for me was something that when I was just a 'babe' in twi I had been pondering and just beginning to understand and that was the body of Christ and how it worked together. I had come full circle from the days before the hurtful 'biblical research and teaching ministry' to the reclaiming of my life and of my true sonship rights after twi. Each time I pick up the book and read something more of the inner workings of the body or how something else actually relates to it or leads up to it, is revealed to me.

The Bible really is a gloriously wonderful book and God does help you understand it if you ask or are open to Him. I am so very glad that you found a way so that you could reach into the book and get some good out of it again.

Where did you find this about Satanic blindness. I can google it but I would like to know what you are reading from.

[cheranne]

Thanks for the post Dot.

I know thats right girlfriend! To be in the dark so long,like a child in a closet locked inside,when

you see light (any kind of light)it seems to atrract (like the light under the door)The "Door"

it took me time to readdjust my eyes!

[geisha779]

Hello Dot, what a wonderful post. I know when I left TWI, I just put my Bible down for a long time, a couple of years.

But, the first thing I learned when I went back was: Christ.

TWI never taught us Christ. We were taught about this Jesus who was human like we are and had an extra dose of Holy Spirit.

It was John 1:1-4 that opened my eyes - Christ was God's Tabernacle, or Temple, on earth - Christ was God with us. The Word was God, the WORD WAS MADE FLESH. Whoa... that blew my little mind.

Christ not only had humanity, he was divine.

I did a word study - He is the apokalypse - the unveiler - literally - the one who takes away the veil.

TWI never taught us that. He was a character up in the sky, coming back someday, so, no need really to talk with him and let Him into your heart today.

Christ opens our eyes and enlightens our hearts - He is, the unveiler.

Its not the Word, or teachers - its Christ. That's who teaches us.

Ask Him to teach you. Just things, it doesn't necessarily have to be "the Word."

When he becomes our center, our life, as we are his, He opens our eyes and we have no need that anyone teach us.

I just think TWI's biggest tragedy is it did not teach us Christ - in all of his Glory or divinity. We wouldn't want Christ to steal Wierwille's thunder now, would we?

Sunesis,

You have brought joy to my heart and tears to my eyes with this post. You glorify Him with your words for He is truly divine. . . as you say. Praise and worship were also stolen from us in TWI. True praise and worship--not the Lo Shanta --version.

This too we can ask the Holy Spirit to teach us. He can usher us into Gods presence where we WILL fall to our knees. We will either cry like babies or only be able to utter praises like "You are worthy".

Knowing Jesus as we do now--God our Savior--we can fall so in love with Him. I mean--head over heels--can't get enough--gotta have more and more love. It is

a wonder we ever stop smiling. I mean thanking Him for chastisment kinda love. The kinda love that sees you through the trials and causes you to KNOW He will turn it to good. Anticipation of His goodness and grace and the assurity we will see it.

The kinda of love that sees us through times when He is silent. And God DOES hide His face from time to time. These are the hardest, but He always does even this so perfectly. The kinda fascination that keeps you pondering over the simplest question. Jesus can ask the most amazing yet simple questions--bring it back to right with one phrase. He is AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!

Didn't mean to derail--Dot what a lovely post--Yes, we can ask the Holy Spirit to teach us. HE does teach us. -- If you would like-- ask Him to show you WHO He is. Ask Jesus to reveal Himself--tell Him your heart to know Him. It is really all about Him--that is Christianity--Jesus.

I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

When WHO appears? Who annoints? I love that you are healing Dot. I am so happy for you.

The first vail left me when I walked--it was like scales falling from my eyes. The others -- like who is Jesus--took a bit longer.

Take Care

Geisha

Edited for spelling

Edited August 2, 2008 by geisha779

[kimberly]

One thing I do have to say about being brought up in the Southern Baptist cult is that I was taught who Jesus Christ is and His significance. The Way cult never took that from me. I loved Him in both cults. I love Him to this day. He loved me in all my many cults. Am I allowed to post here?

[geisha779]

One thing I do have to say about being brought up in the Southern Baptist cult is that I was taught who Jesus Christ is and His significance. The Way cult never took that from me. I loved Him in both cults. I love Him to this day. He loved me in all my many cults. Am I allowed to post here?

Hi Kim,

T here--not the regular Geisha-- I am her husband. I know you Kimberly. Sorry, S. Baptist is not a cult. It is a denomination. BIG difference. If you learned about Jesus Christ there, I am sure you learned about a different Jesus in The Way. I KNOW you did. If you don't believe that Jesus is God than The Way Intl DID take that from you, or you never understood it to begin with.( I seem to remember you said you never believed it)

That is what makes a cult a cult Kimberly, who they teach Jesus is. If I were you I would head back to the Southern Baptist as fast as your feet can take you.

Denominations differ on some things, but all teach Jesus crucified. Jesus is God. That is what makes them CHRISTIAN denominations, more in common than NOT. Jesus is the center of ALL Christianity. The Way taught a DIFFERENT Jesus which is WHY it is a CULT. It has always been like that. It is called HERESY.

Hope all is well with you.

T

Removed the last part--not the place for it.

Edited August 3, 2008 by geisha779

[penguin]

Very very cool topic!

I know when I left twi I had a hard time at first. I too read different Christian books--eventually I was able to read the Bible but it has taken me 3 years to be able to read KJV again--I have been reading anything except KJV because my mind would automatically go to teachings I had heard.

I know when I first left it was sooo strange to not have someone else tell me what to do. I was almost frantically looking for someone to boss my around. I realized pretty quickly that I did not really have Jesus as my Lord in my walk. Sure I said it--but I had let leadership be lord instead.

The other thing that blew me away was praise and worship.

Gradually my veil has been lifted--but it has been 3 years of seeking God, repenting, re-learning etc. with a lot of patient, encouraging, and understanding people to support me.

[Dot Matrix]

My friend, sent me the International Inductive Study Bible (NAS)

It has done wonders to open the scriptures for me - I also could not handle the King James after the Way

so twisted it into "new doctrines"

I am so grateful to God and for legitimate men who stand on the word of God!And to HEAR Jesus being taught and not jeered at - like just an ending to a prayer - an after thought - ya know!

Edited August 5, 2008 by Dot Matrix

[Dot Matrix]

Kimberly!

That was cute, of course post away - I just did not want the TWI doctrine lovers turning this into another of their circus threads

Too many people have struggled with the inability to read the Bible after TWI and I wanted to talk about that...

[penguin]

I have a NAS Bible now too--mine is a Thompson Chain Reference. I have just now started having fun while reading the Bible again!

I know I had to have been blinded--there were too many scriptures that I KNOW I read while in twi--but those verses never registered in my mind--several are VERY clear verses that go right against TWI doctrine. Or they should have at least raised some q's in my mind--but I just read them without thinking and moved on.

Like Jesus' comment on how before Abraham was, he was. And where in the world did vpw pull the "in God's foreknowledge" out of John ch1? Doesn't say anything about foreknowledge there. It just makes me wonder where my brain was at times, you know?

I didn't really attempt to read the Bible for a while because it had been used as a weapon against me for so many years in twi I really couldn't handle it at first. And then even after 2 years, certain verses if read/taught would almost make me panic--II tim 2:15 being one of them. Strange huh?

[Sunesis]

Hi Dot! I've really enjoyed the NIV Study Bible. It has great notes on the verses. That's been my mainstay for years now.

Yes Penguin, it is amazing what we can learn, and how the scriptures can open to us after taking a break - for some a few years. But, we had so much Bible thrown at us, I think God doesn't mind us taking a "break" and getting back to regular living, and teaching us what he would like to teach us, in our own timeframe.

[Eyesopen]

One thing I do have to say about being brought up in the Southern Baptist cult is that I was taught who Jesus Christ is and His significance. The Way cult never took that from me. I loved Him in both cults. I love Him to this day. He loved me in all my many cults. Am I allowed to post here?

Unlike you the cult/church that I was raised in didnt teach me about Jesus. But I had taken some time (not much mind you) to come to my own conclusions based upon what they did say and what the Bible said. But when I got to twi I didnt really have a personal relationship with him and these many years later I have to consciously throw him into the mix when I'm talking to God.

When I left twi I put down my bible because I believed that I was unworthy to read it. I was after all possessed and unsalted as well as a covenant breaker. What right did I have to read His word or speak to Him? My Bible always sat on the small table top podium that I had purchased for it. But other than dust it occassionally I never picked it up to read. Then in 2001 I found out that LCM had been kicked out of the Corps and I reexammined my belief system, especially the part about forgiveness and righteousness and I picked up my Bible to read. It was slow at first...I would hear the voices of vp and lcm in my head 'expounding' on one verse or another and it was difficult to hear the words themselves through their ranting. But eventually the voices quieted and I could 'hear' the words of the Bible as i read them.

The further in time that I get from twi the less that old teachings or teachers invade my thinking. I read more than I once did and I read it for pleasure! That was something that I never learned in twi. They talked about reading for pleasure but when did I have time? I can still summon the voices if I want to hear or remember what their particular take on some thing was, mostly so I can discern how not to interpret a verse but usually I just let the Bible speak for itself. I have found that although it is not perfect in its present form it is not necessary to study our tails off with a dozen different lexicons and such to understand what God wants us to understand. He is perfectly capable of helping the eyes of our understanding become enlightened without the extra books, but we do need to ask and be open to the answer.

[Dot Matrix]

I didn't really attempt to read the Bible for a while because it had been used as a weapon against me for so many years in twi I really couldn't handle it at first. And then even after 2 years, certain verses if read/taught would almost make me panic--II tim 2:15 being one of them. Strange huh?

Penguin - I really GET that!!

When I left twi I put down my bible because I believed that I was unworthy to read it. I was after all possessed and unsalted as well as a covenant breaker.

Eyes I soooo get that as well!

Sun - I have an NIV but I like the one he sent me so much better - did you know there is also a soul care Bible so you can help people?

[chockfull]

This is not really a debateable issue. It is how the church defines a cult. It is not how the church defines groups such as the 'emergent church" or those who follow after the "health and wealth" gospel. Catholics, Jews, Islam, are all religions. There is correct terminology to define these differences. I suppose one could readily say Islam is a cult. In fact, I have heard this said, but they do not claim to be Christian. Jews either.

A cult can be defined in many ways, by many people. For the church, the primary is "Who" they say Jesus is. Which is why the church always defines The Way as a cult.

Not really much to argue.

So let me get this straight. Because the "church" has a definition, it is right? How is that any different than following a man like in TWI? Because it's a group of men and/or women? Which specific group of men and women are we discussing? Actually, from my interaction in denomonations / non-denominational churches / Christian groups, while in VPW's day the trinity seemed to be more of the dividing line with what defines a cult, more modernly the view I've seen is more of like Oakspear is getting at - looking at thier practices. And actually, if you want a Biblical approach to it (NIV, NAS, KJV, RSV, whatever choice you want), Jesus taught himself "by their fruit you will know them". So the modern viewpoint is more Biblically sound. Take the Catholic church for example. Not a cult - old definition. They uphold the trinity. However, look at their practices. Priests and alter boys, all sorts of shenanigans, very heavy-handed dogma, praying to Mary, a saint a day, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if the structure there actually prevented people from being born again in many cases - of course that's an individual thing. In practice are they a cult? You could make a case for that.

Many of us sought after TWI initially because of the bigotry, hypocrisy, closed-mindedness, and lack of genuine Biblical research that was present in "the church". The fruit we saw there was certainly not of a Christian caliber. So we immersed ourselves in the Word, fellowship, and saw many signs, miracles, and wonders in our own lives. Most of that apparantly was in spite of much of the corruption happening in TWI leaders lives. Eventually that fruit turned sour as well. So here we are.

Satanic blindness hides behind labels. God, however, looks upon a man or woman's heart.