If you believe vpw "belongs to the church" as you say that means he will be in the kingdom and be healed at the throne of Jesus and we are to forgive him as Jesus did.
the church is the body of christ .
no not at all scary not at all it is the most beautiful gift Jesus ever paid for me and you and vpw.
The body of Christ does sin indeed given in this day we have choices and two natures to chose from that is why we can ask forgivness and receive it as the power of the risen christ grants us all such priviledge.
is that scary to you? I know you do not like it lol
This topic of forgiveness is truly a precarious one. Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" of the mob assenting to his death. Yet what of those that do know what they do? Many times I've heard TWI leadership in very high places sluff off their atrocities with explanations like "I didn't know I was hurting anyone". Or they blame that people are hurt on the people, when they are the ones that hurt them. It's quite an exercise in dysfunctionality, twisting scriptures, and the true governer for life being politics. Functionally more like the Pharisees.
When Jesus Christ comes back, all will be made right, healed, and we'll see clearly not darkly as if through a glass. In that, the scriptures can't be broken. People have to reap what they sow, or God is mocked. So in addition to being healed at the throne of Jesus, there will have to be some form of justice. Works being burned like stubble I guess are one form of that. But I've also heard TWI interpretation of that stuff saying to people that are hurt and wanting some form of justice that at the return people are only rewarded for their good works, so get over their bitterness.
In love and forgiveness there has to be a form of accountability. Even with children, making them apologize to each other specifically for wrongs is a form of accountability that can allow forgiveness between people. If you have 2 children, and one never has to apologize to the other, and the other is always being told to forgive, one will grow up an abusing megalomaniac, and the other a victim. That's not God's love. Even people with mature love have accountability. I can think of God certainly being no less.
This topic of forgiveness is truly a precarious one. Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" of the mob assenting to his death. Yet what of those that do know what they do? Many times I've heard TWI leadership in very high places sluff off their atrocities with explanations like "I didn't know I was hurting anyone". Or they blame that people are hurt on the people, when they are the ones that hurt them. It's quite an exercise in dysfunctionality, twisting scriptures, and the true governer for life being politics. Functionally more like the Pharisees.
When Jesus Christ comes back, all will be made right, healed, and we'll see clearly not darkly as if through a glass. In that, the scriptures can't be broken. People have to reap what they sow, or God is mocked. So in addition to being healed at the throne of Jesus, there will have to be some form of justice. Works being burned like stubble I guess are one form of that. But I've also heard TWI interpretation of that stuff saying to people that are hurt and wanting some form of justice that at the return people are only rewarded for their good works, so get over their bitterness.
In love and forgiveness there has to be a form of accountability. Even with children, making them apologize to each other specifically for wrongs is a form of accountability that can allow forgiveness between people. If you have 2 children, and one never has to apologize to the other, and the other is always being told to forgive, one will grow up an abusing megalomaniac, and the other a victim. That's not God's love. Even people with mature love have accountability. I can think of God certainly being no less.
God does want us ignorant we are to study and pray and seek Him. God is with us Jesus has sent a comforterto guide us we are not left alone in this dark cold world to fend off behaviours that are not Godly .
but vengence belongs to the LORD clearly he is the King of Kings who can decide what Justice must be done, not us we do see things darkly today and that is exactly why the Lord says vengence belongs only to Him and commands us to love and serve oneanother.
God does want us ignorant we are to study and pray and seek Him. God is with us Jesus has sent a comforterto guide us we are not left alone in this dark cold world to fend off behaviours that are not Godly .
but vengence belongs to the LORD clearly he is the King of Kings who can decide what Justice must be done, not us we do see things darkly today and that is exactly why the Lord says vengence belongs only to Him and commands us to love and serve oneanother.
Vengeance does belong to the Lord. Yet when you look at that topic in the Bible it does deal with it. OT Law - avenging a death was lawful, there were even safe cities for someone to flee to for protection. Jesus forgave his enemies and instructed us to do the same.
Yet when you look at setting up healthy systems on earth, there can be twisted applications of the vengeance verse too. For example, the Allen lawsuit. Vengeance is the Lords, yet a man consulted a lawyer and filed papers in a courthouse seeking damages. That could be considered taking vengeance. Yet it produced a healthy outcome in toppling a perverted predator. I've certainly heard TWI application of the vengeance verse discouraging people from taking action where common laws of the land could curtail behavior when people's moral conscience does not.
People with no boundaries interpret the vengeance verse to mean they should not take any action to protect themselves.
People with boundaries understand that vengeance belonging to the Lord means He will make right whatever has not been able to be set right.
your example of one child being a victim, we are NOT to remain stupid and child-like in our understanding of God.
God warns us when harm is near Jesus blazes a path of right living for each and every one of us, sure we can get lost and come to harm but that doesnt mean we stay their we ask God to help we seek the Lords will in life,and we face trials knowing what Jesus went through in his life and can and is able to help us now today with ou own learning process. we are growing up.
we must learn to grow and we have a father who wants us to learn and grow that is why I worship HIM .
you have told your child not to play on the highway but one day he did and got run over by a car is it you who hurt him? no of course not it was disobeience and sin that hurts us but Jesus is on a mighty throne and can handle us just fine because he loves us so very much.
Vengeance does belong to the Lord. Yet when you look at that topic in the Bible it does deal with it. OT Law - avenging a death was lawful, there were even safe cities for someone to flee to for protection. Jesus forgave his enemies and instructed us to do the same.
Yet when you look at setting up healthy systems on earth, there can be twisted applications of the vengeance verse too. For example, the Allen lawsuit. Vengeance is the Lords, yet a man consulted a lawyer and filed papers in a courthouse seeking damages. That could be considered taking vengeance. Yet it produced a healthy outcome in toppling a perverted predator. I've certainly heard TWI application of the vengeance verse discouraging people from taking action where common laws of the land could curtail behavior when people's moral conscience does not.
People with no boundaries interpret the vengeance verse to mean they should not take any action to protect themselves.
People with boundaries understand that vengeance belonging to the Lord means He will make right whatever has not been able to be set right.
nice post.
yes I agree
we are not to be ignorant of Satan and how he can kill steal or destroy, and it is our JOB to sek the Lord on what should I do to make my life good and happy. we seek His will and I believe His will is for us to be safe and happy and blessed.
we all fall short is the topic of the thread INDEED and that is why we have a Saviour who we follow and not one another and what or who we wish would be God in life.
the areas of forgivness and vengence are given special certain commandments from the Lord.
vengence belongs to HIM only and we are to fogive 70X7.
does that mean we become victims for Christ?
no it means we follow His will for our life and if we all took better care to follow His set standards all the strife and division would lessen but we will have trial and temptations he knows this he was here he lived in this world He OVERCAME this world we need not worry.
One problem that I am having with this discussion is that it seems to exclude those who are not of the Christian persuasion.
Surely the difference between intentional and non-intention misdeeds exceeds the boundaries of one's particular religious beliefs
God is good to all you know he just loves all of his creation.
but those who refuse to consider His position, have enabled their own designs and plans which work for them.
we have laws we have rules of behaviour set by society etc. Intent is often tested in the trials and is often what determines the type of conviction in America.
some can and do decide for others and you can do as you like but in America we can not really rule as a Monarchy we are a system set up for the common good determined by the people be it as it is. Indeed thoughts and actions an individual performs in life bring consequences if one believes another should die for what he/she did they can kill them and suffer the consequence of prison time or even death their own self.
In Ny we have the death penalty available, if one kill another because he feels or thinks he/she deserves Justice by their own hand INDEED they an lose their own life in the doing of it.
we chose what we want to do really but we do have boundaries and balance set in place by the laws of the land.
Some pretty broad assumptions there Pond. I am not so sure you me n vp all actually ARE part of the body of Christ.
Galatians 5 says that vpw anyway, isn`t going to have ANY inheritance in the kingdom of God PERIOD!
How many of us will there be who called on the name of Jesus, prophesied and cast demons in his name that are going to be told to *depart*..denied entry into heaven.. *for he knew us not*?
You talk of love and forgivness, as do so many twi influenced people...yet I have seen a hardness for any whom don`t agree doctrinally, that is in direct contrast to what folks profess.
I don`t think any of us know as much as we think we do.
If you believe vpw "belongs to the church" as you say that means he will be in the kingdom and be healed at the throne of Jesus and we are to forgive him as Jesus did.
the church is the body of christ .
no not at all scary not at all it is the most beautiful gift Jesus ever paid for me and you and vpw.
The body of Christ does sin indeed given in this day we have choices and two natures to chose from that is why we can ask forgivness and receive it as the power of the risen christ grants us all such priviledge.
is that scary to you? I know you do not like it lol
Hi Pond,
I am going to lay this out for you as starkly as possible-I am going to assume you do not understand that which you mock, and I am going to reach out to you.
I said VPW "came out of the church"--not "belongs to the church". You twist my words yet again to make your point. You learned this somewhere and you should stop and consider where. It is beneath you.
The fact that he came out of a Christian denomination should be a WARNING to you. He LEFT the church to start his own religion. Why do I say this? It is so simple now, but once it was not so clear. JESUS. To not accept Jesus for who He tells us He is and create a new one(man only)is a very SERIOUS offence against God. It is what John calls the Spirit of anti-Christ. John wanted people to be saved----the salvation Jesus offers us depends upon his UNIQUE identity. Salvation is being reconciled to God by being forgiven for the guilt of our sins. Our sins can be forgiven only through the death of God’s Son. His Son has to be both a sinless human (in order to die for sinful humans) and fully divine (in order to pay for all of our sins). Only Jesus lived a perfect life to qualify to lay his life down for our sins. Only Jesus claimed to be God so that his death could extend complete forgiveness to all people who are willing to receive his offer. By creating a new Jesus you are rejecting this offer. You are saying God's sacrifice is not right or good enough. Jesus has come in the flesh is VERY important.
What about VP. Was he a false teacher that the bible talks about? YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!! With all this talk about forgivness-we should really stop and look at what God says about them.They are very DANGEROUS men. It may give you pause to rethink some of the things you seem to cling to, and a new perspective on what this means.
First, we should be able to recognize them. This is hard because they come as WOLVES in sheeps clothing. They have the right terminology and use the bible to back their claims. We know them by their fruits. What kind of life do they lead? Is it moral, or do they place themselves above God's law and practice immorality, claiming no connection between spirituality and sin. Are they given to drunkeness-honest with money, are they adultrous? Some even use sex as a way to spiritual enlightenment. What Jesus do they preach? Do they teach contempt for others-or justify this kind of judgement? Do they preach an ear tingling gospel? What you want to hear? Is the focus on the CROSS for salvation?
We have a pretty good picture here of VP. Which is why the apologists for him--cast doubt on the stories told. If they are true and revealed--people will see VP for who he really was. Once you know you must consider what he taught you.
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" (2 Peter 2:1-3).
There are no more prophets among us--but there are false teachers. There judgment was already set. They bring to us damnable heresies!! What does that mean??
Could it mean heresies that lead to damnation?
They deny the Lord that paid the price for them. Are you denying Him too? WHY? For what? Is a false gospel worth defending? NO the truth is.
"False teachers do what the devil did with the scripture when he quoted it to Jesus. They quote true things and lift them out of their context. There is always a curve or twist in the pitch. They promise a quick fix for the emergencies of life when God works with the person slowly to get his purposes done. Discounting an intervention of a miracle from his hands, God is teaching us patience endurance and certainly Godly knowledge as he walks us through this life of trials."
We have a great deal to consider
"We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will"
Do we forgive them? Does God?
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[ and again, "The Lord will judge his people."It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
It is a what?? DREADFUL or warm and fuzzy thing to fall into the hands of the living God!! There is NO MORE sacrifice if you know the truth and turn away!! VP came out of the Church and seminary??
He knew the truth. His fate was already written about.
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
I am done--I was going to talk about the sin unto death--but I am done. Look it up if you want.
One problem that I am having with this discussion is that it seems to exclude those who are not of the Christian persuasion.
Did somebody call me?
This thread has chugged along pretty quickly and I haven't read all the posts, so please forgive me ;) if I cover ground that has already been covered.
My beliefs don't include the notion of a "sin nature", nor anything like a "fall". People are people and each of us has the ability to do great good and great evil, each of us has the potential to be wise or foolish. But I also believe that each of us is responsible for our own actions.
Forgiveness? I believe that forgiveness has two sides. One is to allow the one being forgiven the opportunity to change and the other is to allow the forgiver the opportunity to heal.
To allow the other the chance to change, I believe that I have to open myself to being hurt again, but to trust that the other will change in truth. In this aspect of forgiveness I don't dismiss or minimize the damage, but let the other know that I am willing to continue our relationship, yet expect that the action that prompted the need for forgiveness will not recur.
When dealing with someone who does not want to change, I do not apply the aspect of forgiveness that opens me up for damage, but I may employ the face of forgiveness that allows my wound to heal, to allow the hurt to go away, to decide that the hurt was not important enough for me to continue to allow the would to fester. I decide that the other no longer has power over me.
In the case of Wierwille, we not only have the man who not only apparently did not ask for forgiveness, but whose heirs continued his legacy. Many still hold him in esteem and trust his words and base their theology upon them. What else to do but tell the "other side of the story"?
Some pretty broad assumptions there Pond. I am not so sure you me n vp all actually ARE part of the body of Christ.
Galatians 5 says that vpw anyway, isn`t going to have ANY inheritance in the kingdom of God PERIOD!
How many of us will there be who called on the name of Jesus, prophesied and cast demons in his name that are going to be told to *depart*..denied entry into heaven.. *for he knew us not*?
You talk of love and forgivness, as do so many twi influenced people...yet I have seen a hardness for any whom don`t agree doctrinally, that is in direct contrast to what folks profess.
I don`t think any of us know as much as we think we do.
I just want to share something with you Rascal. God is able to save to the uttermost. He is not limited by our understanding--He is able. I talk about God, and point things out because the fear(reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. We were exposed to some pretty dark stuff in TWI. God truly is Love. He loves us with a love that is mind blowing. Just contemplate Him giving us His Son and making that sacrifice . . .it shows us that love. It is important to ponder why we need it. It helps lead us to repentance before a Holy God.
VP was VP and made his own choices. We too can make ours. You may have thought you made that choice once, and perhaps you did, but a revisit never hurts.
You can't get a more full or satisfying life--there is none like Him. But I don't recognize the God of TWI anymore-meaning He is nothing like the Lord I now know.
God is not a fool--or made in our imagination. The real thing is enough, but is not mocked. He will accept us with open arms. Even when we wonder into bad spots--He will lead us back. So, although I don't mind a little fire and brimstone to catch someones attention. We need it. What waits at the otherside is an opened arm invitation to you.
You are seeing all this for a reason. I have traveled this similar path.
It is sometimes an ugly journey--but when you reach the end--there is God. Well worth the trip.
Someone on another thread aptly said--how far down do you want to peel this onion? Smart. Jesus is the answer--and He is so amazing--words truly do fail me. I cannot express to you His greatness, and the joy there is in knowing Him.
but their is conditions and applications to be dealt with as His creations decides for its own self which God to worship God loves always yet he has his own boundaries and choices that are to be worshiped with Him , such as Romans 10 and 9.
faith is up to the individual to display before God only . He chooses Love, some people do not , can God hate oh yes but not His own .
Rascal concerning your opinion about who isnt choosen of God to life eternal it isnt up to you to decide,
that may be why you were not the one and only begotten son of God ya think?
ohmygod i was going along trying to follow when oakspear chimed in "did somebody call me" -- i am laughing so hard i can hardly breathe
--
this is an interesting discussion, i have to say, even though i don't read line for line and word for word
i'm hearing that you have to believe in the trinity to be saved? am i right? or maybe not the trinity but that jesus christ is flesh and divine (which doesn't really freak me out)
i heard something about God calling his saint to be martyrs (something i've always prayed to him not to do to me!!!!!!)
what else? hmmmm i can't remember. oh yeah, i think if you forgive someone, it doesn't invalidate anything
okay carry on
ps. a lot of these were my questions before i took THE CLASS come full circle haven't i? lol
I made no decision about who is to recieve eternal life, your accusation of me doing that is an attempt to dishonestly paint my position.
You read galatians 5 and it says very clearly that vp has no inheritance. What you are telling me is that in order to accept your theology, I have to ignore an entire chapter of scripture.
I am searching for answeres here, not a reiteration of twi retoric, unsubstantiated by scripture. I think that we have been taught wrong.
Come on, can`t you just feel the warm fuzzies from God when we read of the instantaneous death of annanias and saphira? How is that for *not hating his own*
I think there is more to spirituality and understanding than the knowledge that
Geisha, much to consider. I only know that I DON`T know. I see the hand of God at work, I can not deny his existence, yet I know nothing except that I am willing to follow the two great commandments as a starting place.
I can see that the knowledge that we aquired in twi, seems to have been also instrumental in embueing us with an arrogance and pride that allows us to do as we please, because we are in the grace administration, hurt whom we will, because anyone who doesn`t believe as we do has earned our contempt.
Our pride, our knowledge seems to be a ticket that we have purchased that will see us through this life spiritually, and into the next.
I just don't know where you're getting your info from. I'm not really disagreeing - but I am challenging you to back up your claim.
Can you do it?
I know you didn't ask me, but to spare myself- a headache :) I would like to chime in. God makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust--the short answer is yes God does love all His creation. For God so loved the world. . . . . .
God gives those who don't believe-families=food-homes--common grace. It is His nature--He is good. Even Vp enjoyed life while here. Did you ever wonder why God says don't worry about the wealthy. . . . They have their portion here.
But saying to an unbeliever-God loves you and has a plan for you, your life can be happy with money--Christians are prosperous, healthy. --it is misleading. Jesus said we would lose our lives to follow Him--We would pick up our cross daily.
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” (Lu 9:23)
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
"If we tell the unbelievers that God intimately loves them, repentance is not needed, as God loves them anyway! But they say, “God loves the sinners but hate the sin.” If God loves the sinners why does God send sinners to hell for eternity? God punishes the sinner in hell. The God of the Bible will not compromise because he is infinitely holy, if God is not holy then there will be no hell as he will wink at every sinner and give them bear hugs to all sinners."
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
But yes God does love His creation--He doesn't make something not to love it. He is good. It is His nature to love. However, there is still a hell and judgement. He proclaimed His love to us at the cross. He loves so much He gave His Son for all. That is love and to reject Him is to bring God's wrath upon onesself. He is love --He is Holy--He is just. He gives us every chance to believe. Even nature proclaims Him.
God loves all His creation--you just have to understand that it is not a free pass into eternity--God is who He is and has made a way--we can't make up a new one and ride the wave. It is His ballgame--His rules--His field--His call. --He doesn't compromise. :)
Rascal--I couldn't think of a smarter way to live and just consider ---we don't lead ourselves to God--You are a smart cookie!!
Say Pond, I didn't make that claim. It just occurred to me that there may not be any real proof of that statement. It may just be a comfortable thought that many have gotten used to.
Geisha - thanks for your input. I was looking for something a bit more substantial.
It is, afterall a MIGHTY big claim. And it means that you are speaking for another being.
He loves ALL His creation.
He LOVES all His creation...
Mind you, I think there's a good possibility that the statement(s) is/are true - but why guess about it? If thinking is put on auto-pilot isn't that about the same as being back in twi?
For the record, I'm not trying to be adversarial here. BUT- I am trying to figure out if that belief is valid.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
18
22
19
11
Popular Days
Aug 3
36
Jul 31
30
Aug 2
25
Jul 30
20
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 18 posts
pond 22 posts
geisha779 19 posts
ihrleben 11 posts
Popular Days
Aug 3 2008
36 posts
Jul 31 2008
30 posts
Aug 2 2008
25 posts
Jul 30 2008
20 posts
waysider
All this talk about "forgiveness" makes me wonder if maybe we shouldn't pause and define it.
Sorta make sure we're talking about the same thing, know what I mean?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
This topic of forgiveness is truly a precarious one. Jesus said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" of the mob assenting to his death. Yet what of those that do know what they do? Many times I've heard TWI leadership in very high places sluff off their atrocities with explanations like "I didn't know I was hurting anyone". Or they blame that people are hurt on the people, when they are the ones that hurt them. It's quite an exercise in dysfunctionality, twisting scriptures, and the true governer for life being politics. Functionally more like the Pharisees.
When Jesus Christ comes back, all will be made right, healed, and we'll see clearly not darkly as if through a glass. In that, the scriptures can't be broken. People have to reap what they sow, or God is mocked. So in addition to being healed at the throne of Jesus, there will have to be some form of justice. Works being burned like stubble I guess are one form of that. But I've also heard TWI interpretation of that stuff saying to people that are hurt and wanting some form of justice that at the return people are only rewarded for their good works, so get over their bitterness.
In love and forgiveness there has to be a form of accountability. Even with children, making them apologize to each other specifically for wrongs is a form of accountability that can allow forgiveness between people. If you have 2 children, and one never has to apologize to the other, and the other is always being told to forgive, one will grow up an abusing megalomaniac, and the other a victim. That's not God's love. Even people with mature love have accountability. I can think of God certainly being no less.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
how does the Lord forgive?
as far as the east is from the west.
that is the standard Jesus set .
how an individual who claims Jesus is Lord forgives depends on his ability to follow Jesus's commandment to forgive somone 70X 7 times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
God does want us ignorant we are to study and pray and seek Him. God is with us Jesus has sent a comforterto guide us we are not left alone in this dark cold world to fend off behaviours that are not Godly .
but vengence belongs to the LORD clearly he is the King of Kings who can decide what Justice must be done, not us we do see things darkly today and that is exactly why the Lord says vengence belongs only to Him and commands us to love and serve oneanother.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I can see this functionally carried out in a marriage. There is a healthy blend of accountability and this level of forgiveness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Vengeance does belong to the Lord. Yet when you look at that topic in the Bible it does deal with it. OT Law - avenging a death was lawful, there were even safe cities for someone to flee to for protection. Jesus forgave his enemies and instructed us to do the same.
Yet when you look at setting up healthy systems on earth, there can be twisted applications of the vengeance verse too. For example, the Allen lawsuit. Vengeance is the Lords, yet a man consulted a lawyer and filed papers in a courthouse seeking damages. That could be considered taking vengeance. Yet it produced a healthy outcome in toppling a perverted predator. I've certainly heard TWI application of the vengeance verse discouraging people from taking action where common laws of the land could curtail behavior when people's moral conscience does not.
People with no boundaries interpret the vengeance verse to mean they should not take any action to protect themselves.
People with boundaries understand that vengeance belonging to the Lord means He will make right whatever has not been able to be set right.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
your example of one child being a victim, we are NOT to remain stupid and child-like in our understanding of God.
God warns us when harm is near Jesus blazes a path of right living for each and every one of us, sure we can get lost and come to harm but that doesnt mean we stay their we ask God to help we seek the Lords will in life,and we face trials knowing what Jesus went through in his life and can and is able to help us now today with ou own learning process. we are growing up.
we must learn to grow and we have a father who wants us to learn and grow that is why I worship HIM .
you have told your child not to play on the highway but one day he did and got run over by a car is it you who hurt him? no of course not it was disobeience and sin that hurts us but Jesus is on a mighty throne and can handle us just fine because he loves us so very much.
nice post.
yes I agree
we are not to be ignorant of Satan and how he can kill steal or destroy, and it is our JOB to sek the Lord on what should I do to make my life good and happy. we seek His will and I believe His will is for us to be safe and happy and blessed.
we all fall short is the topic of the thread INDEED and that is why we have a Saviour who we follow and not one another and what or who we wish would be God in life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
So you are saying we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves? I would agree. That would include areas like forgiveness and vengeance.
Good discussion, pond.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
the areas of forgivness and vengence are given special certain commandments from the Lord.
vengence belongs to HIM only and we are to fogive 70X7.
does that mean we become victims for Christ?
no it means we follow His will for our life and if we all took better care to follow His set standards all the strife and division would lessen but we will have trial and temptations he knows this he was here he lived in this world He OVERCAME this world we need not worry.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
One problem that I am having with this discussion is that it seems to exclude those who are not of the Christian persuasion.
Surely the difference between intentional and non-intention misdeeds exceeds the boundaries of one's particular religious beliefs
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
God is good to all you know he just loves all of his creation.
but those who refuse to consider His position, have enabled their own designs and plans which work for them.
we have laws we have rules of behaviour set by society etc. Intent is often tested in the trials and is often what determines the type of conviction in America.
some can and do decide for others and you can do as you like but in America we can not really rule as a Monarchy we are a system set up for the common good determined by the people be it as it is. Indeed thoughts and actions an individual performs in life bring consequences if one believes another should die for what he/she did they can kill them and suffer the consequence of prison time or even death their own self.
In Ny we have the death penalty available, if one kill another because he feels or thinks he/she deserves Justice by their own hand INDEED they an lose their own life in the doing of it.
we chose what we want to do really but we do have boundaries and balance set in place by the laws of the land.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Some pretty broad assumptions there Pond. I am not so sure you me n vp all actually ARE part of the body of Christ.
Galatians 5 says that vpw anyway, isn`t going to have ANY inheritance in the kingdom of God PERIOD!
How many of us will there be who called on the name of Jesus, prophesied and cast demons in his name that are going to be told to *depart*..denied entry into heaven.. *for he knew us not*?
You talk of love and forgivness, as do so many twi influenced people...yet I have seen a hardness for any whom don`t agree doctrinally, that is in direct contrast to what folks profess.
I don`t think any of us know as much as we think we do.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Not trying to be a pain here, but are you sure about that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Hi Pond,
I am going to lay this out for you as starkly as possible-I am going to assume you do not understand that which you mock, and I am going to reach out to you.
I said VPW "came out of the church"--not "belongs to the church". You twist my words yet again to make your point. You learned this somewhere and you should stop and consider where. It is beneath you.
The fact that he came out of a Christian denomination should be a WARNING to you. He LEFT the church to start his own religion. Why do I say this? It is so simple now, but once it was not so clear. JESUS. To not accept Jesus for who He tells us He is and create a new one(man only)is a very SERIOUS offence against God. It is what John calls the Spirit of anti-Christ. John wanted people to be saved----the salvation Jesus offers us depends upon his UNIQUE identity. Salvation is being reconciled to God by being forgiven for the guilt of our sins. Our sins can be forgiven only through the death of God’s Son. His Son has to be both a sinless human (in order to die for sinful humans) and fully divine (in order to pay for all of our sins). Only Jesus lived a perfect life to qualify to lay his life down for our sins. Only Jesus claimed to be God so that his death could extend complete forgiveness to all people who are willing to receive his offer. By creating a new Jesus you are rejecting this offer. You are saying God's sacrifice is not right or good enough. Jesus has come in the flesh is VERY important.
What about VP. Was he a false teacher that the bible talks about? YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!! With all this talk about forgivness-we should really stop and look at what God says about them.They are very DANGEROUS men. It may give you pause to rethink some of the things you seem to cling to, and a new perspective on what this means.
First, we should be able to recognize them. This is hard because they come as WOLVES in sheeps clothing. They have the right terminology and use the bible to back their claims. We know them by their fruits. What kind of life do they lead? Is it moral, or do they place themselves above God's law and practice immorality, claiming no connection between spirituality and sin. Are they given to drunkeness-honest with money, are they adultrous? Some even use sex as a way to spiritual enlightenment. What Jesus do they preach? Do they teach contempt for others-or justify this kind of judgement? Do they preach an ear tingling gospel? What you want to hear? Is the focus on the CROSS for salvation?
We have a pretty good picture here of VP. Which is why the apologists for him--cast doubt on the stories told. If they are true and revealed--people will see VP for who he really was. Once you know you must consider what he taught you.
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" (2 Peter 2:1-3).
There are no more prophets among us--but there are false teachers. There judgment was already set. They bring to us damnable heresies!! What does that mean??
Could it mean heresies that lead to damnation?
They deny the Lord that paid the price for them. Are you denying Him too? WHY? For what? Is a false gospel worth defending? NO the truth is.
"False teachers do what the devil did with the scripture when he quoted it to Jesus. They quote true things and lift them out of their context. There is always a curve or twist in the pitch. They promise a quick fix for the emergencies of life when God works with the person slowly to get his purposes done. Discounting an intervention of a miracle from his hands, God is teaching us patience endurance and certainly Godly knowledge as he walks us through this life of trials."
We have a great deal to consider
"We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will"
Do we forgive them? Does God?
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[ and again, "The Lord will judge his people."It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
It is a what?? DREADFUL or warm and fuzzy thing to fall into the hands of the living God!! There is NO MORE sacrifice if you know the truth and turn away!! VP came out of the Church and seminary??
He knew the truth. His fate was already written about.
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
I am done--I was going to talk about the sin unto death--but I am done. Look it up if you want.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
This thread has chugged along pretty quickly and I haven't read all the posts, so please forgive me ;) if I cover ground that has already been covered.
My beliefs don't include the notion of a "sin nature", nor anything like a "fall". People are people and each of us has the ability to do great good and great evil, each of us has the potential to be wise or foolish. But I also believe that each of us is responsible for our own actions.
Forgiveness? I believe that forgiveness has two sides. One is to allow the one being forgiven the opportunity to change and the other is to allow the forgiver the opportunity to heal.
To allow the other the chance to change, I believe that I have to open myself to being hurt again, but to trust that the other will change in truth. In this aspect of forgiveness I don't dismiss or minimize the damage, but let the other know that I am willing to continue our relationship, yet expect that the action that prompted the need for forgiveness will not recur.
When dealing with someone who does not want to change, I do not apply the aspect of forgiveness that opens me up for damage, but I may employ the face of forgiveness that allows my wound to heal, to allow the hurt to go away, to decide that the hurt was not important enough for me to continue to allow the would to fester. I decide that the other no longer has power over me.
In the case of Wierwille, we not only have the man who not only apparently did not ask for forgiveness, but whose heirs continued his legacy. Many still hold him in esteem and trust his words and base their theology upon them. What else to do but tell the "other side of the story"?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I just want to share something with you Rascal. God is able to save to the uttermost. He is not limited by our understanding--He is able. I talk about God, and point things out because the fear(reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. We were exposed to some pretty dark stuff in TWI. God truly is Love. He loves us with a love that is mind blowing. Just contemplate Him giving us His Son and making that sacrifice . . .it shows us that love. It is important to ponder why we need it. It helps lead us to repentance before a Holy God.
VP was VP and made his own choices. We too can make ours. You may have thought you made that choice once, and perhaps you did, but a revisit never hurts.
You can't get a more full or satisfying life--there is none like Him. But I don't recognize the God of TWI anymore-meaning He is nothing like the Lord I now know.
God is not a fool--or made in our imagination. The real thing is enough, but is not mocked. He will accept us with open arms. Even when we wonder into bad spots--He will lead us back. So, although I don't mind a little fire and brimstone to catch someones attention. We need it. What waits at the otherside is an opened arm invitation to you.
You are seeing all this for a reason. I have traveled this similar path.
It is sometimes an ugly journey--but when you reach the end--there is God. Well worth the trip.
Someone on another thread aptly said--how far down do you want to peel this onion? Smart. Jesus is the answer--and He is so amazing--words truly do fail me. I cannot express to you His greatness, and the joy there is in knowing Him.
Don't despair--He will keep you, He is able.
Geisha
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
His creation Dooj yes . Im sure
but their is conditions and applications to be dealt with as His creations decides for its own self which God to worship God loves always yet he has his own boundaries and choices that are to be worshiped with Him , such as Romans 10 and 9.
faith is up to the individual to display before God only . He chooses Love, some people do not , can God hate oh yes but not His own .
Rascal concerning your opinion about who isnt choosen of God to life eternal it isnt up to you to decide,
that may be why you were not the one and only begotten son of God ya think?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
ohmygod i was going along trying to follow when oakspear chimed in "did somebody call me" -- i am laughing so hard i can hardly breathe
--
this is an interesting discussion, i have to say, even though i don't read line for line and word for word
i'm hearing that you have to believe in the trinity to be saved? am i right? or maybe not the trinity but that jesus christ is flesh and divine (which doesn't really freak me out)
i heard something about God calling his saint to be martyrs (something i've always prayed to him not to do to me!!!!!!)
what else? hmmmm i can't remember. oh yeah, i think if you forgive someone, it doesn't invalidate anything
okay carry on
ps. a lot of these were my questions before i took THE CLASS come full circle haven't i? lol
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Pond, I think you only see one side of the issue.
I made no decision about who is to recieve eternal life, your accusation of me doing that is an attempt to dishonestly paint my position.
You read galatians 5 and it says very clearly that vp has no inheritance. What you are telling me is that in order to accept your theology, I have to ignore an entire chapter of scripture.
I am searching for answeres here, not a reiteration of twi retoric, unsubstantiated by scripture. I think that we have been taught wrong.
Come on, can`t you just feel the warm fuzzies from God when we read of the instantaneous death of annanias and saphira? How is that for *not hating his own*
I think there is more to spirituality and understanding than the knowledge that
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
All? How do you know that?
I just don't know where you're getting your info from. I'm not really disagreeing - but I am challenging you to back up your claim.
Can you do it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Geisha, much to consider. I only know that I DON`T know. I see the hand of God at work, I can not deny his existence, yet I know nothing except that I am willing to follow the two great commandments as a starting place.
I can see that the knowledge that we aquired in twi, seems to have been also instrumental in embueing us with an arrogance and pride that allows us to do as we please, because we are in the grace administration, hurt whom we will, because anyone who doesn`t believe as we do has earned our contempt.
Our pride, our knowledge seems to be a ticket that we have purchased that will see us through this life spiritually, and into the next.
Scritpuraly, this doesn`t seem to be supported.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I know you didn't ask me, but to spare myself- a headache :) I would like to chime in. God makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust--the short answer is yes God does love all His creation. For God so loved the world. . . . . .
God gives those who don't believe-families=food-homes--common grace. It is His nature--He is good. Even Vp enjoyed life while here. Did you ever wonder why God says don't worry about the wealthy. . . . They have their portion here.
But saying to an unbeliever-God loves you and has a plan for you, your life can be happy with money--Christians are prosperous, healthy. --it is misleading. Jesus said we would lose our lives to follow Him--We would pick up our cross daily.
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” (Lu 9:23)
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
"If we tell the unbelievers that God intimately loves them, repentance is not needed, as God loves them anyway! But they say, “God loves the sinners but hate the sin.” If God loves the sinners why does God send sinners to hell for eternity? God punishes the sinner in hell. The God of the Bible will not compromise because he is infinitely holy, if God is not holy then there will be no hell as he will wink at every sinner and give them bear hugs to all sinners."
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
But yes God does love His creation--He doesn't make something not to love it. He is good. It is His nature to love. However, there is still a hell and judgement. He proclaimed His love to us at the cross. He loves so much He gave His Son for all. That is love and to reject Him is to bring God's wrath upon onesself. He is love --He is Holy--He is just. He gives us every chance to believe. Even nature proclaims Him.
God loves all His creation--you just have to understand that it is not a free pass into eternity--God is who He is and has made a way--we can't make up a new one and ride the wave. It is His ballgame--His rules--His field--His call. --He doesn't compromise. :)
Rascal--I couldn't think of a smarter way to live and just consider ---we don't lead ourselves to God--You are a smart cookie!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
I can about as much as those who make accusations of long dead people and others on the internet. With nothing but their say so.
you first ok? what does anyone have to "back up" the many stories here?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Say Pond, I didn't make that claim. It just occurred to me that there may not be any real proof of that statement. It may just be a comfortable thought that many have gotten used to.
Geisha - thanks for your input. I was looking for something a bit more substantial.
It is, afterall a MIGHTY big claim. And it means that you are speaking for another being.
He loves ALL His creation.
He LOVES all His creation...
Mind you, I think there's a good possibility that the statement(s) is/are true - but why guess about it? If thinking is put on auto-pilot isn't that about the same as being back in twi?
For the record, I'm not trying to be adversarial here. BUT- I am trying to figure out if that belief is valid.
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.