your position is one of Jesus being God. I also understand the position but disagree.
in your post you leave the man Jesus no choice to live or die and actualy claim your God is the one who planned and orchestrated a murder with His Hand.
My God is love and not in a mystical love what does that mean kind of love. I mean He loves me He created me as he must have created Jeuss in your mind to KILL HIM?
I reject the notion. I believe Jesus is seperate from God a real live man a second adam of sorts and Jesus made the choice to lay down his life in obedience to Gods will to show us how to trust and obey a God who cares so very deeply for us all. I believe He lives in much authority today in this world and the one to come because of that very choice.
It was not Gods choice it was adams in the garden to chose . he chose wrong all of mankind got into a mess with sin which is death itself.
God wanted that fact that Bad choice of adams to stop to go away he didntwant his children to die EVER!
The first Adam made the choice and God loves him so much He can not just UNDO it, so the second man came the second adam got another shot at listening to Gods will and obeying and he succeeded and what was the outcome? LIFE FOR all! who believe Jesus christ did the fathers will and was RAISED from DEATH. Death is God arch enemy and Jesus WON the victory over what? DEATH! no my God knows how many hairs I have on my head and would NEVER harm me.
your position is one of Jesus being God. I also understand the position but disagree.
in your post you leave the man Jesus no choice to live or die and actualy claim your God is the one who planned and orchestrated a murder with His Hand.
My God is love and not in a mystical love what does that mean kind of love. I mean He loves me He created me as he must have created Jeuss in your mind to KILL HIM?
I reject the notion. I believe Jesus is seperate from God a real live man a second adam of sorts and Jesus made the choice to lay down his life in obedience to Gods will to show us how to trust and obey a God who cares so very deeply for us all. I believe He lives in much authority today in this world and the one to come because of that very choice.
Hi Pond,
Got it now. . . . I do forget sometimes. I will leave you alone now--but finish with this. The reality is---that is what MOST Christians consider a "False Gospel" and "Another Jesus"--
HOWEVER, it is what I believed for years.
It is what leads us down seperate paths.
I too believe Jesus was fully human as well as fully God.
I mean you NO disrespect,(None, Not a drop) but, I would not be true to what I know if I did not say. . .
I find that a very scary understanding of the most amazing event in human history.
I agree with that and understand how frightening it would be to deny Jesus as God if one believes in the trinity .
absolutly. it would mean I deny God and reject his will for life.
possibly burn in hell I suppose by your terms . thank you for loving me in your post.
but Im convinced and I also believe many of those who believe Jesus is God may see the very grace Jesus paid for with his choice of obeying God till the very end.
Just wanted to add this--although what you said didn't really oppose my thread(I don't think you really fully read it)--you seem intent we not judge men like VP.(Meaning call them exactly what they are) Not doing so from a common sense point is absurd and from a biblical standpoint wrong as well. As I said--we better judge them according to their fruit--and we had better know their FALSE gospel. Discern --not condemn them to hell (God's Call). But. . . call them who they are and warn others. We have to make a right judgement to do this.
Is it okay if we call them. . . . . "the first born of Satan?"
That one was for you ID :)
Let me be clear, I'm not saying that what they did was right. It was clearly WRONG. Their fruits were rotten. I've also said that it is ok to walk away, educate others against their teachings etc. Common sense says what they've done is wrong, however, we are not without sin either. Although you and I do not agree on the judging bit, which is fine, I think we can agree upon the egregious nature of their actions. I choose not to judge, because I'm far from perfect and have no right to "cast stones." That being said, I will say that they were wrong.
Trust me when I tell you I've spent years unlearning TWI gospel. It's insidious. It gets into the cracks of your mind, in places that you don't recognize and affects life in ways we hardly recognize until it's pointed out to us.
Sometimes we get so bent on judging that we forget forgiving. These people, as terrible as their actions were, still have control in our lives as long as we carry this burden around with us by saying we have the right to judge them has horrible people. It shows that we're still hurt and angry for what they've done.
Our focus shouldn't be upon how wrong they were, but on how do we help ourselves and those around us to forgive the sins that were committed against us and others.
We can stand around all day pointing fingers, or we can choose to begin the process of healing for our sakes and for the sakes of others. I'm new to this site, and have only written in this thread, but it's clear there are a lot of hurting people here who need the love of the Lord and healing. Not preoccupation with judgment.
If anything, I feel compassion for those VP and LCM ripped apart and deceived. However, I also feel compassion these men because they too were deceived by Satan and the price they pay is absolutely terrible even though they brought it upon themselves. Be careful in your judgments and anger so as not to become as guilty as they are.
This thread started out by asking the difference between sin and evil. The bottom line is sin is evil in God's eyes, because it goes against his very nature. VP, LCM, you, me and others have all sinned. So if you judge VP and LCM as evil and as bad people do you include yourself in that category?
Judge not lest ye be judged.... He who is without sin let him cast the first stone.... Take the beam out of your own eye.... etc, etc, etc....
If anything, I feel compassion for those VP and LCM ripped apart and deceived. However, I also feel compassion these men because they too were deceived by Satan and the price they pay is absolutely terrible even though they brought it upon themselves. Be careful in your judgments and anger so as not to become as guilty as they are.
I feel no compassion for them.(VP and LCM)
They chose the paths they followed.
Likewise I feel no compassion for Hitler, Noreaga, Idi Amin or Musolini because they were "deceived by Satan".
Anger for what they did or judgment of their actions could never make me "become as guilty as they are".
Are you aware that VPW had direct ties to white supremacy/anti Semitic organizations, sympathized with Hitler and openly taught that The Holocaust was a fraud?
ordained yes indeed ordained YET it was a choice . Jesus could have said I aint giving my life for no one they aint worth it .
but he did not , he loved us as sinners when we were in fact worthy of the death adam sought in the garden. Jesus christ is the ONLY as in ONLY ONE begotten Son. He did the Fathers will and obeyed because he so loved us.
I have great difficulty reconciling the fact you believe God would murder His only child who loved and obeyed Him for a butch of sinners who proved they could not or would not listen to Him. I would be afraid of your God I would run from that type of God .
the frame is love see for me, God loved Jesus so much He promised Him eternal life and the eternal life of mankind if he would only believe He (God) loved us. Jesus loved us so much He obeyed till the death knowing full well it met torture and having to be away from those he cared so deeply about . He trusted God and loved us . enough to trust God and he didnt know He would rise again He didnt know the gift to us would come till after he was risen . He just trusted God so very much he laid down his life for a maybe something good will come out of it. He wanted good things for us his peeps I smile as I gleefully exclaim and praise His holy name because he sure won the big prize for us all.
God is God he created us, I do not believe he made his creation to kill them.
Maybe this is better suited to the doctrinal forum but, I think one must examine the meaning of "forgiveness" before committing to subjecting to it.
I agree that this should go on a doctrinal thread. I could write pages on the topic. Here's the short of it as I see it. Forgiveness doesn't mean they get away from what they did or the consequences. It also doesn't mean forgetting all that's happened, and walking right back into the same trap. What it means is release from our burdens.
When we carry around unforgiveness it's like having a ruck sack filled with rocks. And each time we have another grievance and we fail to forgive it's like adding rocks to that ruck until it gets to the point that we can't carry it anymore. Unforgiveness bog us down, wears us out, allows those who hurt us to still have control in our lives even if they're no longer around and it can potentially stall our lives as well as our walk with God.
ordained yes indeed ordained YET it was a choice . Jesus could have said I aint giving my life for no one they aint worth it .
but he did not , he loved us as sinners when we were in fact worthy of the death adam sought in the garden. Jesus christ is the ONLY as in ONLY ONE begotten Son. He did the Fathers will and obeyed because he so loved us.
I have great difficulty reconciling the fact you believe God would murder His only child who loved and obeyed Him for a butch of sinners who proved they could not or would not listen to Him. I would be afraid of your God I would run from that type of God .
the frame is love see for me, God loved Jesus so much He promised Him eternal life and the eternal life of mankind if he would only believe He (God) loved us. Jesus loved us so much He obeyed till the death knowing full well it met torture and having to be away from those he cared so deeply about . He trusted God and loved us . enough to trust God and he didnt know He would rise again He didnt know the gift to us would come till after he was risen . He just trusted God so very much he laid down his life for a maybe something good will come out of it. He wanted good things for us his peeps I smile as I gleefully exclaim and praise His holy name because he sure won the big prize for us all.
God is God he created us, I do not believe he made his creation to kill them.
Hi Pond,
Yes, He had a choice. I never said He didn't. That is what makes it more precious. What does it mean to you--when you hear that God has ordained something? Just curious. My tone is soft and kind--no malice. I know that is hard to get online, so I want to let you know that upfront.
I never said God MURDERED His Son. You are putting words there that are not there. I said the more accepted explanation would be God killed Him. I now realize that was QUITE the wrong way to word this. But, boiling it down --- bear in mind God is sovereign---who sacrificed Him? Did we make that call while dead in sins and offer up a perfect sacrifice? Why did He have to be sacrificed? Not the easy answer "because of our sins" But, why does a God who created us require a sacrifice? He required them of Israel--He required one for us. . . Why? What was the purpose? Whose plan of redemption was it? If God made us Pond, what is it about Him that makes us so unworthy on our own? Why is sin such a big deal?
It was God's plan His purpose. Adam--all of it.
. . . this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
The act itself was carried out by evil men--still held responsible for their actions,I agree, but it was the providence of God, His redemptive plan----Pond. I know you don't like it--you think I make God scary--and in many respects He is. Not that we must be afraid of Him--but, we must recognize who He is.
--God is not a warm and fuzzy. . . . . . He is God
The frame for me is love as well. If you have a hard time recognizing that God would sacrifice His perfect Son for a bunch of worthless sinners(you are right we are) You may be missing out on the INCREDIBLE love --God is capable of and has for you. Think about it.
If you don't believe that God(Jesus) stepped into time from eternity to make this sacrifice then I do understand how it might make God look scary. I think it makes it amazing.
If you don't understand that Jesus is eternal--there with God always--and not a created being. These are hard concepts--I get that. Jesus with His last few dying breaths saw to the care of His mother. He is truly amazing and reveals to us God.
It wasn't a crapshoot for Jesus--He knew who He was and His purpose.
Do you believe that God poured out His wrath on Jesus? Do you believe that God has wrath? Or why? Have you ANY concept at all about what that would be like? No man could withstand that Pond. No man can see His full glory. Moses had to wear a veil after seeing the back of God's glory. His glowing face was too much for the children of Israel.
Can I ask you one more thing? Do you see the way God used the evil acts of men for good--His providence, His purpose?
For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done
I know you don't like it--this is why I judge Vp as evil I do.
IM not trying to blow off a discussion.. I do not have time.
but if Jesus is God and God killed Jesus your saying God killed His self to help His creation?
I do not believe it .
do i believe god is Good yes always and He can turn evil situation or behaviours into Good if one choses to OBEY His will.
I believe God gives us all including Jesus a choice to Worship or not.
oh i happen to believe God is a warm and fuzzy very warm and fuzzy and most of all Right.
Fair enough--I have a lazy Saturday and am just hanging out--but I understand busy.
I kindly laid out the gospel message to you and you boil it down to an odd rationalization about God killing Himself. BTW-I worship Jesus.
I guess we can chuck all of Romans and that pesky OT for the kinder---gentler--warm and fuzzy version.
Be careful not to reject out of hand the gospel of salvation--the one Paul preached--for a more comfortable fit.
This thread started by asking why Jesus treated some one way and others another???
This is why. This is EXACTLY why. Vp taught us a false gospel. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for something similar--Paul called the false teachers of his day servants
of satan. They knew that this stuff robbed people of the narrow gate.
Take Care Pond--I hope for you the very best God has to give---Himself.
Hello, and we care what or why? How old are we? Are we mature desiring the meat of the Word? Who is VP? Who is LCM? Yippy skippy, they gave their life for me. Hibble scribble dibble dabby jooby! Who and what is my focus? Aaahh, but who do you say that I am, Peter? Who do you say is the Lord Jesus Christ?
After how many years folks are still full of animosity and hurt? Then God Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ obviously do not have their rightful place in folks life.
Oh, you guys are hurt? Well, Jesus Christ was hurt. And maybe just a little bit more...duh ya think... He didn't go on and on and on and on and blame anybody and everybody else. Guess what...if we walk in the footsteps of Jesus Christ we will be hurt. Ya think when Peter denied him and their eyes met He wasn't hurt? Well, what did the Lord Jesus Christ do? You guessed it. He cried and moaned and whined (for years and years) that the people he depended on and trusted disappointed Him. If you want to know how He healed from it just ask Him. Then again, if you do then this site would cease to exist.
Why thank you, I could just FEEL the love and compassion of Christ just ooozing from that last post :)
I suppose hurt and suffering and pain and damage ARE the result after all of being used, betrayed, assaulted, robbed raped, and cast aside like so much garbage...shrug Maybe that is why God takes such a dim view of it, and quite possibly the consequences of doing these things in his name are so dire.
I guess we can chuck all of Romans and that pesky OT for the kinder---gentler--warm and fuzzy version.
Be careful not to reject out of hand the gospel of salvation--the one Paul preached--for a more comfortable fit.
This thread started by asking why Jesus treated some one way and others another???
This is why. This is EXACTLY why. Vp taught us a false gospel. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for something similar--Paul called the false teachers of his day servants
of satan. They knew that this stuff robbed people of the narrow gate.
Precisely Geisha,
I had really hoped that this could be explored without simply it as a spring board into somebody`s favorite platform.
I am not interested in TWI`s version of why it just doesn`t matter one way or another. I think that there is ample evidence that there are different standards for different actions.
I have to wonder if living life according to twi doctrine really COULD rob us of our chance to enter that gate. I think that it bears examination.
Just to clear things up and avoid misunderstanding your position....
Do you think it's possible to forgive those despicable people for what they did,
and still discuss what they did, warn others to avoid the same trap,
and discuss what happened to help others understand why they had to leave
or were kicked out?
Or does your definition of "forgiveness" mean we would be forbidden to discuss
any of that, and accept that if anyone wants to wander into twi nowadays,
it's wrong for us to tell them what they're getting into?
It's possible you mean either position, and there's some assumptions about
what you mean taking place.
I agree that this should go on a doctrinal thread. I could write pages on the topic. Here's the short of it as I see it. Forgiveness doesn't mean they get away from what they did or the consequences. It also doesn't mean forgetting all that's happened, and walking right back into the same trap. What it means is release from our burdens.
When we carry around unforgiveness it's like having a ruck sack filled with rocks. And each time we have another grievance and we fail to forgive it's like adding rocks to that ruck until it gets to the point that we can't carry it anymore. Unforgiveness bog us down, wears us out, allows those who hurt us to still have control in our lives even if they're no longer around and it can potentially stall our lives as well as our walk with God.
I had really hoped that this could be explored without simply it as a spring board into somebody`s favorite platform.
I am not interested in TWI`s version of why it just doesn`t matter one way or another. I think that there is ample evidence that there are different standards for different actions.
I have to wonder if living life according to twi doctrine really COULD rob us of our chance to enter that gate. I think that it bears examination.
Hi Rascal--
Yes, I so agree, it does bear a humble examination. If we just assume these lecherous, vile, abusers, Who Executed GREAT EVIL, taught us the deep and meaningful truths of God--we are not even using plain common sense.
Perhaps they were not the humble and meek, whom God gives Himself to, so maybe it was twisted truths--lies. Including the "BIGGIES".
There are some very sobering things in the bible we cannot just "Spin" away, and say "My God is love." Don't get me wrong. . . HE IS, He loves us RIGHTLY, but, He is also JUST(THANK GOD FOR MERCY), Righteous, Holy, and expects obedience. He is worthy of it, so it is no less than He deserves.
He doesn't ask anything of us we are unable to give or that He is not worthy of. That is why grace is so important--we can mess up in our OBEDIENCE-God looks on the heart. Grace is not a free-for-all, lets party cause we are covered. That is a perversion of God's grace.
His love and our idea of what love should be may differ. His love is right, and a much loftier deeper version than that of TWI spin. He expects us to love as He does.
How can we love Him back if we don't know Him as He is? How can we love His ways and desire to walk in His statutes, if we minimize Him to a warm and fuzzy, "Waiter in the sky". We are His servants--He is God. The God of the Bible calls some of His saints to martyrdom. Now, how does that fit with the warm and fuzzy version? The God of the bible chastens all that He loves--but He is so worthy and so awesome and so amazing--we learn and grow from this and it is such a deep relationship that we end up thanking Him and asking for more. Don't get me wrong, it is not fun, but it is fulfilling. He fills us and it is enough in whatever circumstance we find ourselves in. I know I kinda ramble--but God is just beyond words. His ways are addictive!!LOL :)
We learn about the unforgivable sin in Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees. Although there are differing ideas on if it can be committed now, it is a sobering thought none-the-less. Jesus knew the difference in these men and the heart of the sinner who was burdened by their sin.
He called them what they were.
We should have NO problem calling VP what he was. For me VPW is what the bible talks about. I am more hesitant to call LCM anything. Not because I don't think he did what is said here, but I look at his life now and I have hope for him. He has been ripped from TWI and fallen from a great height. Oddly enough, that makes me think that maybe God is afoot in his life. I hold out hope and prayers he will repent. He has been humbled and it SEEMS God is working. I could be wrong, but I still pray for him. Never to minimize or to dismiss the pain he has caused. It is because I don't want to see ANYONE spend an eternity from God. A more horrible thing is not even to be contemplated and forgivness is our calling. I just ask on his behalf and let God deal with it.
VPW came out of the church--out from among us. Scary huh?
Probably more than you wanted to hear--hope I didn't overstep!:) I just really love to talk about God. He is life--not about life--He is lfe :) :)
Just to clear things up and avoid misunderstanding your position....
Do you think it's possible to forgive those despicable people for what they did,
and still discuss what they did, warn others to avoid the same trap,
and discuss what happened to help others understand why they had to leave
or were kicked out?
Or does your definition of "forgiveness" mean we would be forbidden to discuss
any of that, and accept that if anyone wants to wander into twi nowadays,
it's wrong for us to tell them what they're getting into?
It's possible you mean either position, and there's some assumptions about
what you mean taking place.
Absolutely! Like I said in some of my previous posts, talking and educating are fine, yet, I'm seeing pain here. I'm seeing a lot of people living with that pain and unable to let it go. It's not a matter of one day your in and the next day your out--no big deal. Healing is a process, and we need to continue healing; otherwise, we get stuck at one point and that affects the rest of our lives. It almost seems like there are those individuals who are stuck, and need help to continue on the path of healing.
I'VE NEVER SAID IT WAS A PROBLEM DISCUSSING OR EDUCATING, but I'm seeing more than just discussing and educating going on. I'm seeing some, not all, hurting people who need help forgiving so they may be made whole.
Many of us here have a pretty good understanding of what forgiveness is, so, why is this so tough to hear? Is it because there are those that are afraid that if they do forgive than what they experienced isn't valid, or that VP and LCM get away with what they've done? Forgiveness doesn't allow them to get away with what they've done, nor does it invalidate what we've gone through. It's real! It happened! We were betrayed! And it hurts....
But, when do we stop drinking the poisons of anger, bitterness, fear, sadness and hopelessness? When do we stop believing that drinking these poisons into our own souls somehow affects them?
If you believe vpw "belongs to the church" as you say that means he will be in the kingdom and be healed at the throne of Jesus and we are to forgive him as Jesus did.
the church is the body of christ .
no not at all scary not at all it is the most beautiful gift Jesus ever paid for me and you and vpw.
The body of Christ does sin indeed given in this day we have choices and two natures to chose from that is why we can ask forgivness and receive it as the power of the risen christ grants us all such priviledge.
is that scary to you? I know you do not like it lol
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pond
your position is one of Jesus being God. I also understand the position but disagree.
in your post you leave the man Jesus no choice to live or die and actualy claim your God is the one who planned and orchestrated a murder with His Hand.
My God is love and not in a mystical love what does that mean kind of love. I mean He loves me He created me as he must have created Jeuss in your mind to KILL HIM?
I reject the notion. I believe Jesus is seperate from God a real live man a second adam of sorts and Jesus made the choice to lay down his life in obedience to Gods will to show us how to trust and obey a God who cares so very deeply for us all. I believe He lives in much authority today in this world and the one to come because of that very choice.
It was not Gods choice it was adams in the garden to chose . he chose wrong all of mankind got into a mess with sin which is death itself.
God wanted that fact that Bad choice of adams to stop to go away he didntwant his children to die EVER!
The first Adam made the choice and God loves him so much He can not just UNDO it, so the second man came the second adam got another shot at listening to Gods will and obeying and he succeeded and what was the outcome? LIFE FOR all! who believe Jesus christ did the fathers will and was RAISED from DEATH. Death is God arch enemy and Jesus WON the victory over what? DEATH! no my God knows how many hairs I have on my head and would NEVER harm me.
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geisha779
Hi Pond,
Got it now. . . . I do forget sometimes. I will leave you alone now--but finish with this. The reality is---that is what MOST Christians consider a "False Gospel" and "Another Jesus"--
HOWEVER, it is what I believed for years.
It is what leads us down seperate paths.
I too believe Jesus was fully human as well as fully God.
I mean you NO disrespect,(None, Not a drop) but, I would not be true to what I know if I did not say. . .
I find that a very scary understanding of the most amazing event in human history.
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pond
I agree with that and understand how frightening it would be to deny Jesus as God if one believes in the trinity .
absolutly. it would mean I deny God and reject his will for life.
possibly burn in hell I suppose by your terms . thank you for loving me in your post.
but Im convinced and I also believe many of those who believe Jesus is God may see the very grace Jesus paid for with his choice of obeying God till the very end.
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ihrleben
Let me be clear, I'm not saying that what they did was right. It was clearly WRONG. Their fruits were rotten. I've also said that it is ok to walk away, educate others against their teachings etc. Common sense says what they've done is wrong, however, we are not without sin either. Although you and I do not agree on the judging bit, which is fine, I think we can agree upon the egregious nature of their actions. I choose not to judge, because I'm far from perfect and have no right to "cast stones." That being said, I will say that they were wrong.
Trust me when I tell you I've spent years unlearning TWI gospel. It's insidious. It gets into the cracks of your mind, in places that you don't recognize and affects life in ways we hardly recognize until it's pointed out to us.
Sometimes we get so bent on judging that we forget forgiving. These people, as terrible as their actions were, still have control in our lives as long as we carry this burden around with us by saying we have the right to judge them has horrible people. It shows that we're still hurt and angry for what they've done.
Our focus shouldn't be upon how wrong they were, but on how do we help ourselves and those around us to forgive the sins that were committed against us and others.
We can stand around all day pointing fingers, or we can choose to begin the process of healing for our sakes and for the sakes of others. I'm new to this site, and have only written in this thread, but it's clear there are a lot of hurting people here who need the love of the Lord and healing. Not preoccupation with judgment.
If anything, I feel compassion for those VP and LCM ripped apart and deceived. However, I also feel compassion these men because they too were deceived by Satan and the price they pay is absolutely terrible even though they brought it upon themselves. Be careful in your judgments and anger so as not to become as guilty as they are.
This thread started out by asking the difference between sin and evil. The bottom line is sin is evil in God's eyes, because it goes against his very nature. VP, LCM, you, me and others have all sinned. So if you judge VP and LCM as evil and as bad people do you include yourself in that category?
Judge not lest ye be judged.... He who is without sin let him cast the first stone.... Take the beam out of your own eye.... etc, etc, etc....
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waysider
I feel no compassion for them.(VP and LCM)
They chose the paths they followed.
Likewise I feel no compassion for Hitler, Noreaga, Idi Amin or Musolini because they were "deceived by Satan".
Anger for what they did or judgment of their actions could never make me "become as guilty as they are".
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Ben
Are you aware that VPW had direct ties to white supremacy/anti Semitic organizations, sympathized with Hitler and openly taught that The Holocaust was a fraud?
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ihrleben
Waysider,
No problem. I get why you don't feel compassion for these individuals.
My biggest point is what ever happened to forgiveness?
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pond
ordained yes indeed ordained YET it was a choice . Jesus could have said I aint giving my life for no one they aint worth it .
but he did not , he loved us as sinners when we were in fact worthy of the death adam sought in the garden. Jesus christ is the ONLY as in ONLY ONE begotten Son. He did the Fathers will and obeyed because he so loved us.
I have great difficulty reconciling the fact you believe God would murder His only child who loved and obeyed Him for a butch of sinners who proved they could not or would not listen to Him. I would be afraid of your God I would run from that type of God .
the frame is love see for me, God loved Jesus so much He promised Him eternal life and the eternal life of mankind if he would only believe He (God) loved us. Jesus loved us so much He obeyed till the death knowing full well it met torture and having to be away from those he cared so deeply about . He trusted God and loved us . enough to trust God and he didnt know He would rise again He didnt know the gift to us would come till after he was risen . He just trusted God so very much he laid down his life for a maybe something good will come out of it. He wanted good things for us his peeps I smile as I gleefully exclaim and praise His holy name because he sure won the big prize for us all.
God is God he created us, I do not believe he made his creation to kill them.
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waysider
Maybe this is better suited to the doctrinal forum but, I think one must examine the meaning of "forgiveness" before committing to subjecting to it.
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ihrleben
I agree that this should go on a doctrinal thread. I could write pages on the topic. Here's the short of it as I see it. Forgiveness doesn't mean they get away from what they did or the consequences. It also doesn't mean forgetting all that's happened, and walking right back into the same trap. What it means is release from our burdens.
When we carry around unforgiveness it's like having a ruck sack filled with rocks. And each time we have another grievance and we fail to forgive it's like adding rocks to that ruck until it gets to the point that we can't carry it anymore. Unforgiveness bog us down, wears us out, allows those who hurt us to still have control in our lives even if they're no longer around and it can potentially stall our lives as well as our walk with God.
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waysider
I like your "ruck sack" analogy, Ben, though "diddy bag" might be more appropriate for the current guests of GSC.
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excathedra
I can write one post on this. I'm not God, or Jesus, so I don't get a lot of it.
For you Bible people, this may sound like a "cop-out" (yuck for the phrase).
We'll see where I hope to be going. lol
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geisha779
Hi Pond,
Yes, He had a choice. I never said He didn't. That is what makes it more precious. What does it mean to you--when you hear that God has ordained something? Just curious. My tone is soft and kind--no malice. I know that is hard to get online, so I want to let you know that upfront.
I never said God MURDERED His Son. You are putting words there that are not there. I said the more accepted explanation would be God killed Him. I now realize that was QUITE the wrong way to word this. But, boiling it down --- bear in mind God is sovereign---who sacrificed Him? Did we make that call while dead in sins and offer up a perfect sacrifice? Why did He have to be sacrificed? Not the easy answer "because of our sins" But, why does a God who created us require a sacrifice? He required them of Israel--He required one for us. . . Why? What was the purpose? Whose plan of redemption was it? If God made us Pond, what is it about Him that makes us so unworthy on our own? Why is sin such a big deal?
It was God's plan His purpose. Adam--all of it.
. . . this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
The act itself was carried out by evil men--still held responsible for their actions,I agree, but it was the providence of God, His redemptive plan----Pond. I know you don't like it--you think I make God scary--and in many respects He is. Not that we must be afraid of Him--but, we must recognize who He is.
--God is not a warm and fuzzy. . . . . . He is God
The frame for me is love as well. If you have a hard time recognizing that God would sacrifice His perfect Son for a bunch of worthless sinners(you are right we are) You may be missing out on the INCREDIBLE love --God is capable of and has for you. Think about it.
If you don't believe that God(Jesus) stepped into time from eternity to make this sacrifice then I do understand how it might make God look scary. I think it makes it amazing.
If you don't understand that Jesus is eternal--there with God always--and not a created being. These are hard concepts--I get that. Jesus with His last few dying breaths saw to the care of His mother. He is truly amazing and reveals to us God.
It wasn't a crapshoot for Jesus--He knew who He was and His purpose.
Do you believe that God poured out His wrath on Jesus? Do you believe that God has wrath? Or why? Have you ANY concept at all about what that would be like? No man could withstand that Pond. No man can see His full glory. Moses had to wear a veil after seeing the back of God's glory. His glowing face was too much for the children of Israel.
Can I ask you one more thing? Do you see the way God used the evil acts of men for good--His providence, His purpose?
For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done
I know you don't like it--this is why I judge Vp as evil I do.
Take Care :) :) :)
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pond
IM not trying to blow off a discussion.. I do not have time.
but if Jesus is God and God killed Jesus your saying God killed His self to help His creation?
I do not believe it .
do i believe god is Good yes always and He can turn evil situation or behaviours into Good if one choses to OBEY His will.
I believe God gives us all including Jesus a choice to Worship or not.
oh i happen to believe God is a warm and fuzzy very warm and fuzzy and most of all Right.
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geisha779
Fair enough--I have a lazy Saturday and am just hanging out--but I understand busy.
I kindly laid out the gospel message to you and you boil it down to an odd rationalization about God killing Himself. BTW-I worship Jesus.
I guess we can chuck all of Romans and that pesky OT for the kinder---gentler--warm and fuzzy version.
Be careful not to reject out of hand the gospel of salvation--the one Paul preached--for a more comfortable fit.
This thread started by asking why Jesus treated some one way and others another???
This is why. This is EXACTLY why. Vp taught us a false gospel. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for something similar--Paul called the false teachers of his day servants
of satan. They knew that this stuff robbed people of the narrow gate.
Take Care Pond--I hope for you the very best God has to give---Himself.
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kimberly
Hello, and we care what or why? How old are we? Are we mature desiring the meat of the Word? Who is VP? Who is LCM? Yippy skippy, they gave their life for me. Hibble scribble dibble dabby jooby! Who and what is my focus? Aaahh, but who do you say that I am, Peter? Who do you say is the Lord Jesus Christ?
After how many years folks are still full of animosity and hurt? Then God Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ obviously do not have their rightful place in folks life.
Oh, you guys are hurt? Well, Jesus Christ was hurt. And maybe just a little bit more...duh ya think... He didn't go on and on and on and on and blame anybody and everybody else. Guess what...if we walk in the footsteps of Jesus Christ we will be hurt. Ya think when Peter denied him and their eyes met He wasn't hurt? Well, what did the Lord Jesus Christ do? You guessed it. He cried and moaned and whined (for years and years) that the people he depended on and trusted disappointed Him. If you want to know how He healed from it just ask Him. Then again, if you do then this site would cease to exist.
Puhhhhlllleeezzzz.............
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rascal
Why thank you, I could just FEEL the love and compassion of Christ just ooozing from that last post :)
I suppose hurt and suffering and pain and damage ARE the result after all of being used, betrayed, assaulted, robbed raped, and cast aside like so much garbage...shrug Maybe that is why God takes such a dim view of it, and quite possibly the consequences of doing these things in his name are so dire.
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rascal
Precisely Geisha,
I had really hoped that this could be explored without simply it as a spring board into somebody`s favorite platform.
I am not interested in TWI`s version of why it just doesn`t matter one way or another. I think that there is ample evidence that there are different standards for different actions.
I have to wonder if living life according to twi doctrine really COULD rob us of our chance to enter that gate. I think that it bears examination.
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WordWolf
Just to clear things up and avoid misunderstanding your position....
Do you think it's possible to forgive those despicable people for what they did,
and still discuss what they did, warn others to avoid the same trap,
and discuss what happened to help others understand why they had to leave
or were kicked out?
Or does your definition of "forgiveness" mean we would be forbidden to discuss
any of that, and accept that if anyone wants to wander into twi nowadays,
it's wrong for us to tell them what they're getting into?
It's possible you mean either position, and there's some assumptions about
what you mean taking place.
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cman
Excellent points WordWolf.
I get tired of the accusations just because these things need to be discussed.
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geisha779
Hi Rascal--
Yes, I so agree, it does bear a humble examination. If we just assume these lecherous, vile, abusers, Who Executed GREAT EVIL, taught us the deep and meaningful truths of God--we are not even using plain common sense.
Perhaps they were not the humble and meek, whom God gives Himself to, so maybe it was twisted truths--lies. Including the "BIGGIES".
There are some very sobering things in the bible we cannot just "Spin" away, and say "My God is love." Don't get me wrong. . . HE IS, He loves us RIGHTLY, but, He is also JUST(THANK GOD FOR MERCY), Righteous, Holy, and expects obedience. He is worthy of it, so it is no less than He deserves.
He doesn't ask anything of us we are unable to give or that He is not worthy of. That is why grace is so important--we can mess up in our OBEDIENCE-God looks on the heart. Grace is not a free-for-all, lets party cause we are covered. That is a perversion of God's grace.
His love and our idea of what love should be may differ. His love is right, and a much loftier deeper version than that of TWI spin. He expects us to love as He does.
How can we love Him back if we don't know Him as He is? How can we love His ways and desire to walk in His statutes, if we minimize Him to a warm and fuzzy, "Waiter in the sky". We are His servants--He is God. The God of the Bible calls some of His saints to martyrdom. Now, how does that fit with the warm and fuzzy version? The God of the bible chastens all that He loves--but He is so worthy and so awesome and so amazing--we learn and grow from this and it is such a deep relationship that we end up thanking Him and asking for more. Don't get me wrong, it is not fun, but it is fulfilling. He fills us and it is enough in whatever circumstance we find ourselves in. I know I kinda ramble--but God is just beyond words. His ways are addictive!!LOL :)
We learn about the unforgivable sin in Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees. Although there are differing ideas on if it can be committed now, it is a sobering thought none-the-less. Jesus knew the difference in these men and the heart of the sinner who was burdened by their sin.
He called them what they were.
We should have NO problem calling VP what he was. For me VPW is what the bible talks about. I am more hesitant to call LCM anything. Not because I don't think he did what is said here, but I look at his life now and I have hope for him. He has been ripped from TWI and fallen from a great height. Oddly enough, that makes me think that maybe God is afoot in his life. I hold out hope and prayers he will repent. He has been humbled and it SEEMS God is working. I could be wrong, but I still pray for him. Never to minimize or to dismiss the pain he has caused. It is because I don't want to see ANYONE spend an eternity from God. A more horrible thing is not even to be contemplated and forgivness is our calling. I just ask on his behalf and let God deal with it.
VPW came out of the church--out from among us. Scary huh?
Probably more than you wanted to hear--hope I didn't overstep!:) I just really love to talk about God. He is life--not about life--He is lfe :) :)
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ihrleben
Absolutely! Like I said in some of my previous posts, talking and educating are fine, yet, I'm seeing pain here. I'm seeing a lot of people living with that pain and unable to let it go. It's not a matter of one day your in and the next day your out--no big deal. Healing is a process, and we need to continue healing; otherwise, we get stuck at one point and that affects the rest of our lives. It almost seems like there are those individuals who are stuck, and need help to continue on the path of healing.
I'VE NEVER SAID IT WAS A PROBLEM DISCUSSING OR EDUCATING, but I'm seeing more than just discussing and educating going on. I'm seeing some, not all, hurting people who need help forgiving so they may be made whole.
Many of us here have a pretty good understanding of what forgiveness is, so, why is this so tough to hear? Is it because there are those that are afraid that if they do forgive than what they experienced isn't valid, or that VP and LCM get away with what they've done? Forgiveness doesn't allow them to get away with what they've done, nor does it invalidate what we've gone through. It's real! It happened! We were betrayed! And it hurts....
But, when do we stop drinking the poisons of anger, bitterness, fear, sadness and hopelessness? When do we stop believing that drinking these poisons into our own souls somehow affects them?
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cman
That is an accusation.
Who are you saying is doing this?
And why do YOU think this way.
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pond
If you believe vpw "belongs to the church" as you say that means he will be in the kingdom and be healed at the throne of Jesus and we are to forgive him as Jesus did.
the church is the body of christ .
no not at all scary not at all it is the most beautiful gift Jesus ever paid for me and you and vpw.
The body of Christ does sin indeed given in this day we have choices and two natures to chose from that is why we can ask forgivness and receive it as the power of the risen christ grants us all such priviledge.
is that scary to you? I know you do not like it lol
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