Well Ben, I am not so sure about God always loving us. I mean doesn`t he talk about those he has turned over to darkness?
What about those with a seared conscience? Seared means they are burned ...damaged....no?
Isn`t there such a thing as an unforgivable sin?
How many twi people are seared and don`t even know it...our arrogance in our knowledge being the ticket that we think is going to get us into heaven?
Yes..... Matthew 12:31 (KJV)
Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
There seems to be a difference in the regard, treatment and punishment of a screw up, and the condemnation of one who is just plain evil.
What is it that constitutes evil...a seared conscience that God turns his back on?
Is it the arrogance, the refusal to recognize that we are wrong when confronted that differentiates between screw up and needs to be forgiven, or evil and needs to be condemned?? Is it when we move from practicing evil, to actively harming others that sets us apart? Is it when we lie or cheat or steal as in Annanias and Saphiras case?
Is this a definition of what we encountered in twi?
Backing away from the Biblical definitions ... it seems simple enough that the more systematic and premeditated the abuse of power is, the more "wicked" it becomes.
The more willing someone in power is to ride roughshod over those he "controls" ... the more "evil" he is.
In TWI it seemed some advanced by bringing in more people/revenue ... some were more like thugs/enforcers.
We've already pretty much judged vp ... but what of his power structure? Did LCM just follow blindly along ... maybe he failed because he was not quite smart enough or ruthless enough to be really dedicated to destroying his challengers. But he seemed willing to take advantage of people ... I don't know, but I think he is better off now ... (though he doesn't seem to get what he did wrong, from what we hear)
There were all levels ... and many seemed like great guys ... just don't get in their way. VP had his gang around him for support, and challengers were dealt with as if it was the Devil challenging God himself.
So were the adulterers that did not quite force themselves on their flock less guilty? What about the guys at trunk that just pulled women's tube tops down, all in good fun ... or bullied people a little, but with the best of intentions? Are there lines not crossed that made some yes men less "evil"?
I don't know ... but our judicial system is set up to judge wrong ... and it would judge people in more authority more harshly. The more premeditated, the worse the crime. The less the consideration for the victims, the more brutal the act. The deceit of using a minister position to take advantage of young women is perhaps the most heinous act.
The actions at the top in TWI were premeditated, systematic, deceitful and cruel ... and except for a little trouble with his denomination, it seems vp got away with it all ..I can't imagine any old wayfers being able to match him ...
When you say judge according to God's standards not the world's, I get that; however, we are not to judge because we don't know what's in a man's heart. In the cases of VPW and LCM, we have no right to judge them as good or bad, yet, we have the right to say that what they did was wrong--their fruits are bad, not they're bad people. You see, only God knows what those two were thinking and what led them to betray their sheep etc. Bottom line, we know part of their story, but certainly not all of it; therefore, we say they were wrong--it's God's place to judge.
Ben, God commands you to love Him with all of your heart-soul-MIND- and strength. He wants all of your reason and understanding as well as your tender heart. I really see your tenderness here. BUT Paul said:
2nd Cor :12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
He made a judgemet on these men. He wanted to cut the ground out from an under them! The reason it is sooooo tricky is because they were masquerading as Apostles of Christ. Did VP consider himself an Apostle? I heard that MANY times as he was bringing new light to the Church. I could be wrong, but that was the buzz I remember. Even if that is not 100% accurate, he acted the part. The reason I make such a judgement is VPW preached "Another" Gospel
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Again, Paul is judging those who preach "another" gospel.
Jesus commands us to use righteous judgement. John7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
Ben a good tree produces good fruit -- a corrupt tree corrupt fruit. We CAN know what kind of people they are. At least in VP's case--he came out of the church. That is a HUGE deal.
If we do not discern what kind of gospel is preached or by what kind of people-EXPOSED in the bible for us. We will go from one mess to another.
We have to be able to discern the emergent church-the peace and prosperitry gospel. False teachers. . . . .Benny Hinn is easy--what about someone like Joyce Myers?
Hebrews 5:14. . . . . . who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
People who come to Christ learn to discern truth from error and holy behavior from unholy behavior.
These are righteous judgements. I can't condemn VP to an eternity in hell. That is God's call. I can and MUST judge VP's gospel and his actions and his life which all tell me his heart and that he was NOT a Godly man--but a servant of evil.
Now, as far as LCM is concerned--here's one for you--He has been pulled away from TWI--his family -- lost all and is humbled. I hold out great hope for him. And I pray he repents.
Through illumination of the word the Holy Spirit provides His saints the capacity to discern divine truth, however, that doesn't mean we still don't need teachers or know it all--it takes hard work.
The danger is always judging . . . self-righteously. We had BETTER judge or discern these men spiritually or we end up in "The cult part 2" However, people with plain common sense know-good and evil as defined by the actions of VP.
Take Care
Wordwolf,
I didn't even think of that. It seems such an odd concept to me--that the betrayer of Jesus would be born again. We often lose the characteristic of God's that is the
most sobering--He is just. Jesus said he was a devil. We can make a good assumption from that. :)
Wow. I missed that one. Judas. hmmm. Was he just some poor sap that got caught up in all the drama, or was he some evil guy? Since being "born again" was technically not available until the day of Pentecost, and he had already been dead several weeks - and replaced, wouldn't it be a stretch to believe he was born again and heaven-bound?
The timeline just doesn't fit.
Did TWI teach that? And why does it matter whether he made it or not?
Ha! I shoulda known - yeah, it was twi that taught that. It made a huge impression on me regarding judging other people to hear that God was so just that he even forgave Judas because Judas repented and we'll see him at the bema... Velly intellestink!!! I'll have to rethink this.
My point of bringing Judas up was pretty much shot by the facts here - lol. But I still think the goal is to judge in terms of behaviors and not so much the people, although I admit I wouldn't invite lcm over to watch a movie, share a meal or go swimming with us.
Geisha - Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I agree with you, rascal - I think repentance is key. It makes my stomach turn every time I hear that line vpw used about wishing he were the man he knew to be - no he didn't - if he really wished that, he'd have done something about it.
Ham - Yeah, I think even the megalomaniac can be forgiven - not to be confused with trusted or welcomed back to the position with us they enjoyed before they showed they're not to be trusted, but forgiveness is for us - so that we don't carry that heavy and painful load of judgment around with it clouding up everything we're trying to do.
WordWolf - Wow - that's really interesting. I've now read a bunch off the internet about Judas. I'm reconsidering what I thought I knew about him as I said above to Tzaia. Again, thanks for taking the time to shed more light.
The time line is wrong, none of the disciples recieved holy spirit as a gift from God through Jesus because it was his Resurrection that enabled eternal life for all those who believe romans 10 and 9.
Also a interesting fact here is the fact Judas did kill his own self, he rejected Jesus as Lord , and his life ended when it all became to much .
I think those who reject Jesus today make the same choice. they live until life ends for them they hold no promise of the kingdom of the life God grants those who believe in Him . no eternal life just a life then death.
Judgement is not today we recieve consequences to be sure of bad choices, we are children of God growing up day by day. He is our father and the judgement is not for today if you believe in what Jesus christ did for mankind and for God you will have eternal life.
I do not know about folks who spend their days deciding who is the better christian and who sinned a bigger sin or for how long.. it seems to me that behaviour is exactly the problems Jesus had with the religous leaders and pharasee's who loved God and was pointing the finger at just how wrong the other guy was . it was the men and women who wanted to trick and scheme to bring judgements on others that Jesus said didnt know HIM and said their father was the devil.
In the very least so much energy spent deciding who is wrong and more wrong certainly takes away from the efort of loving one another which is to be our focus as Jesus clearly COMMANDS.
Im not talking about a pollly anna world either in which rose colored glass appear and everything is alright. What i Can and should judge is my own behaviour my own choices my own thoughts.
Is it ok for me to have sex with a married man, should I stay involved in an organizatio I know is capable of harm?
those are judgements we need to make for our own selfs. That is why the Lord is called a wonderful conselor because hhe does help us in making good choices and following His will for our life.
We are often warned of harm of people being sinners this is clear in the bible, no surprise to god when bad stuff happens to those he loves... He knows we are capable of following the wrong choice and getting into trouble here , that is exactly the reason He gave us a SAVIOUR.
Many involved in these groups particularly twi believe they are mini Jesus running the world today, with magic spells put on others and the ability to decide above God what another life was is or will be.
to take care of our own individual part in the body of this New creation is all god or Jesus asks and 9sorry to bust any bubble of ego) really all we can do for HIM.
Twi really taught some to focus on evil to think evil to give evil thoughts a name and a place in your life. it is the cult thinking of us vs them evil vs good (although the bible clearly states NONE are good) and in his last book life vs death.
the bible asks us to keep our mind on things ABOVE what this world has dished out , to think good thoughts and to do good unto all.
I mean if those who participate in this activity really think they are warning anyone about what vpw CAn do as far as sin it is a little late now he isnt capable of anymore harm.
so it seems to me it is only your time and your life your wasting away talking crap about another and trying real hard to white wash it with as a noble deed for mankind.
LCM is not the only one who has comminted adultry it seems to me it is so very common for those in position of authority to become corrupt today this is not a news flash for many today.
so what is the point I ask that one has to write a thread to decide who will be in the kingdom or who wont? I mean i believe I hope I will but tht is all it is a HOPE the story turns out alright I can not even know for certain it will be true in my own life. I just believe it to be so, it has not happened so I wont know till It happens.
why does it matter to YOU how big anothers sin is? why does it matter to YOU if a dead guy is going to be in the kingdom or not? all the threads in this world will never give you the power to decide any persons fate (thank God) .
Selling pfal is the core of this you know.. if you heard somone SIT you felt ou did God a favor you did a good thing for mankind.
not really god gives the increase so says the bible not YOU or PFAL and now this thinking has come full circle and you believe you can decide who will burn in hell and must discuss it .
I don't really have a dog in this fight but I did want to corroborate that VPW did teach that Judas was present at Pentecost.
My memory is very fuzzy on this one.
If I recall correctly, he was teaching on Pentecost , flew off the track, and started to babble about mathematical accuracy.
Then he went back to the Gospels and said that it doesn't say exactly WHEN he "hanged himself". Thus, by virtue of wierwillian logic, it allowed for the presence of Judas on The Day of Pentecost. Then of course, he used the record in Acts to prove he was "born-again" because there were no exclusions listed. Circular reasoning. And we all sat there enthralled with this new and unique twist on conventional thought because we were sure he must have gotten some sort of revelation. Remember how he was fond of saying, "Father told me" or something to that effect? I don't believe "Father" ever told him anything. He was a con artist who was adept at twisting words and feigning emotion.
he often went on about the prcision of what he thought the bible meant, and how it says what it means and means what it says, so in this case with judas he says well it must mean this ...
and it might not but like you said because he was a teacher we bought the sale.
father told him ? well the way i look at that is Father will tell me if i need to know. seriously maybe he did "tell" you but he didnt tell me does he love you more or something?
he often went on about the prcision of what he thought the bible meant, and how it says what it means and means what it says, so in this case with judas he says well it must mean this ...
and it might not but like you said because he was a teacher we bought the sale.
father told him ? well the way i look at that is Father will tell me if i need to know. seriously maybe he did "tell" you but he didnt tell me does he love you more or something?
I don't think Judas was there at Pentecost. I don't have my Bible with me now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it says straightway he went and hanged himself. Also, Peter, before Pentecost, met with the disciples and said, we need to choose someone to take his place, he called him the one appointed to destruction - something like that. So, they chose Mathias to take his place. Then we see the 12 - with Mathias - at Pentecost. Judas wasn't there.
I think an interesting point is, Jesus knew who Judas was. Yet, he loved him as the other disciples, let him carry the money, gave him every chance to repent, gave him the sop, signifying his love to him, at the last supper, i.e., treated him with loving kindness. Yet, man's heart can be hard and hateful against God. Judas refused the love of the Son of God and went out and betrayed him. What more could Christ have done?
If you read the Gospels (which VP discouraged), its very interesting to see exactly what it is that Jesus preaches. His main preaching is this: The Kingdom of God is coming. Believe on me, and freely enter in. Israel would not, yet we do see the Kingdom fulfilled in Revelation.
But the point is, I believe there is a new world, new kingdom coming. We can scoff, as Peter says in I or II Peter, but it will happen. Not everyone will enter. Judas rejected the offer.
As far as I know, when Satan needed to make sure something was done right, he so far has entered into/enters into only two people - Judas (to make sure the Messiah is killed, so the Kingdom cannot come, so Satans rule will never end); and the Antichrist to come - the Beast.
But no one can say Christ did not give Judas every opportunity to come to him.
Ben, God commands you to love Him with all of your heart-soul-MIND- and strength. He wants all of your reason and understanding as well as your tender heart. I really see your tenderness here. BUT Paul said:
2nd Cor :12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
He made a judgemet on these men. He wanted to cut the ground out from an under them! The reason it is sooooo tricky is because they were masquerading as Apostles of Christ. Did VP consider himself an Apostle? I heard that MANY times as he was bringing new light to the Church. I could be wrong, but that was the buzz I remember. Even if that is not 100% accurate, he acted the part. The reason I make such a judgement is VPW preached "Another" Gospel
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Again, Paul is judging those who preach "another" gospel.
Jesus commands us to use righteous judgement. John7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
Ben a good tree produces good fruit -- a corrupt tree corrupt fruit. We CAN know what kind of people they are. At least in VP's case--he came out of the church. That is a HUGE deal.
If we do not discern what kind of gospel is preached or by what kind of people-EXPOSED in the bible for us. We will go from one mess to another.
We have to be able to discern the emergent church-the peace and prosperitry gospel. False teachers. . . . .Benny Hinn is easy--what about someone like Joyce Myers?
Hebrews 5:14. . . . . . who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
People who come to Christ learn to discern truth from error and holy behavior from unholy behavior.
These are righteous judgements. I can't condemn VP to an eternity in hell. That is God's call. I can and MUST judge VP's gospel and his actions and his life which all tell me his heart and that he was NOT a Godly man--but a servant of evil.
Now, as far as LCM is concerned--here's one for you--He has been pulled away from TWI--his family -- lost all and is humbled. I hold out great hope for him. And I pray he repents.
Through illumination of the word the Holy Spirit provides His saints the capacity to discern divine truth, however, that doesn't mean we still don't need teachers or know it all--it takes hard work.
The danger is always judging . . . self-righteously. We had BETTER judge or discern these men spiritually or we end up in "The cult part 2" However, people with plain common sense know-good and evil as defined by the actions of VP.
Take Care
Wordwolf,
I didn't even think of that. It seems such an odd concept to me--that the betrayer of Jesus would be born again. We often lose the characteristic of God's that is the
most sobering--He is just. Jesus said he was a devil. We can make a good assumption from that. :)
Wordwolf:
I appreciate you challenging me. I'm not sure what version of the Bible you're using, but the KJV reads
2 Cor. 11:12-15 1. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15. Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
In these scriptures Paul isn't judging, he's warning us against false apostles and ministers--telling us what to look for. Also, Paul is saying that those who follow this path will reap what they sow, but I see no judgement here.
Satan inspires his ministers to imitate Christianity and even do miracles (Mt. 24:24, 2 Th. 2:8-12, Rev. 13; 16:13-16; 19:20).
John 2:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement. [\b]
This begs the questions what in context is this written and what is righteous judgement?
In these verses Jesus is rebuking inconsistent practices on the Sabbath.
ADAM CLARKE COMMENTARY
Attend to the law, not merely in the letter, but in its spirit and design. Learn that the law which commands men to rest on the Sabbath day is subordinate to the law of mercy and love, which requires them to be ever active to promote God's glory in the comfort and salvation of their fellow creatures; and endeavour to judge of the merit or demerit of an action, not from the first impression it may make upon your prejudices but from its tendency, and the motives of the person, as far as it is possible for you to acquaint yourselves with them; still believing the best, where you have no certain proof to the contrary.
JOHN GILL'S EXPOSITION ON THE BIBLE
Judge not according to the appearance…
Or through respect of persons, and so as to please men, the Scribes and Pharisees; who had condemned the action of Christ, in curing the diseased man on the sabbath day, and sought to kill him for it:
but judge righteous judgment;
give your sense and judgment of things, according to the truth and evidence of them; and do not find fault with that, which you yourselves allow of, and which Moses and his law, and your own practices, justify.
Matt. 7:1-5 1. Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
It seems to me that judgement is a risky endeavor with real consequences. Do we have the right to be casting stones?
Gal. 1:6-9 6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
In this context Paul is dealing with the things that the Galatians were doing wrong. I really don't feel like doing another list right now, so, I'm not going to go through it all. However, he was dealing with going back under the law and substituting it for the gospel, which was perverting the gospel of Christ. You see, the gospel had not only been preached to them, but they had received it and the benefits of it.
Going back to....
ADAM CLARKE
Verse 7. Which is not another
It is called a gospel, but it differs most essentially from the authentic narratives published by the evangelists. It is not gospel, i.e. good tidings, for it loads you again with the burdens from which the genuine Gospel has disencumbered you. Instead of giving you peace, it troubles you; instead of being a useful supplement to the Gospel of Christ, it perverts that Gospel. You have gained nothing but loss and damage by the change.
Verse 8. But though we, or an angel
That Gospel which I have already preached to you is the only true Gospel; were I to preach any other, I should incur the curse of God. If your false teachers pretend, as many in early times did, that they received their accounts by the ministry of an angel, let them be accursed; separate them from your company, and have no religious communion with them. Leave them to God who will show his displeasure against all who corrupt, all who add to, and all who take from the word of his revelation.
Verse 9. Let him be accursed
Perhaps this is not designed as an imprecation, but a simple direction; for the word here may be understood as implying that such a person should, have no countenance in his bad work, but let him, as Theodoret expresses it, αλλοτριοςεστωτουκοινουσωματοςτηςεκκλησιας, be separated from the communion of the Church. This, however, would also imply that unless the person repented, the Divine judgments would soon follow.
Again, I don't see judgement here. He's telling the people to walk away if they need to, and not to commune with them that teach falsely lest they be corrupted. I see the pointing out of wrongs, and the consequences that will follow if they continue. It is left to God to meet out Divine judgement.
Moving on....
Gal. 6:1-8 1. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5. For every man shall bear his own burden. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
This whole section is key in dealing with TWI, but pay close attention to verses seven and eight....
What we see are two destinies. One of living according to the spirit and one according to the flesh, but no judgements on Paul's part. These are consequences of bad choices.
It's about choices...
Just as surely as everything in nature reproduces after its kind, harvests being as sure as the sowings, so every man will reap what he sows and be responsible for his one destiny. It is folly to talk about reaping eternal life when one sows to the flesh; just as, it is folly to talk about reaping flesh if one sows to the spirit.
I just have one thing to add on a much simpler note.
since we brought up the fact of 50 or something or other I say Now I am willing to step back and consider...
the impulse of youth grants indulgence of learning, and I have had more than one lesson I will NEVER go through THAT experience again.
so I learned.
my point is
I have confessed to be a christian for forty years now, and when i was youger days I could point a finger and say right wrong right wrong.. not so today I have learned the Lord works in some crazy mixed up fried and any other word you want world.
He is able He truly is, and to "get the job done" he works within a mix of souls blessing us all .
I would be amiss to say I get all people or understand all people but I can clearly know the LORD does and he works with each of his children just were they are at hence it makes for a new creation like I have yet to understand or at times even like but do indeed recognize.
I preach not tolerance but understanding the ways of god are a mystery to us as it should be or we would tell the enemy satan all the secrets to get us out of this "fleshy " thought process and he in turn would fight harder and more bastardly to hurt the mission that Jesus seeks today.
It was my post not Wordwolf's and apparently you didn't quite catch it all.
I said:"These are righteous judgements. I can't condemn VP to an eternity in hell. That is God's call. I can and MUST judge VP's gospel and his actions and his life which all tell me his heart and that he was NOT a Godly man--but a servant of evil."
Fair enough Ben--you and I see things differently, or we are both parsing words.
Just wanted to add this--although what you said didn't really oppose my thread(I don't think you really fully read it)--you seem intent we not judge men like VP.(Meaning call them exactly what they are) Not doing so from a common sense point is absurd and from a biblical standpoint wrong as well. As I said--we better judge them according to their fruit--and we had better know their FALSE gospel. Discern --not condemn them to hell (God's Call). But. . . call them who they are and warn others. We have to make a right judgement to do this.
Is it okay if we call them. . . . . "the first born of Satan?"
I don`t think that we can condemn them to hell. I DO think however, that we can know what their hearts were by examining the fruit in their lives. Galatians 5 says point blankk that anyone who does what wierwille does....is of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Whether we forgive them or love them or hate them...that is what they are and the consequences of being who they are. They themselves have earned the condemnation of God.
I think that in the scriptures, there are instances of great love, compassion and forgivness demonstrated, likewise there are seem to be situations where there were no exhortations to forgive or love...but even warnings to stay away from certain people.
The doctrine we were taught of all love, all forgiveness, no consequences because we are in the grace administration WERE taught by a very evil person who wished to seek coorboration and justification for refusing the walk of a christian.
Suniesis, I have great respect for your understanding of the scriptures. Have you read the manuscripts about Judas? I can`t remember the details, but there are many many manuscripts that were rejected by the counsel that chose which ones were to be cannonized.
In this book as I remember reading about it, Judas was actually a hero. It was necessary for Jesus to be betrayed, in order for the new birth to be available. Jesus asked Judas to do it, basically is the gist as I remember it.
Any chance this fits in with the scriptures and love that Jesus displayed?
the events of the crucifixion had to be played out in the manner they were, Jesus had to be betrayed, to be arrested , go to court and be brought before his own people who decided he was the one to die.
It was not the ruler of the city(he found nothing to try the man) who convicted Jesus he brought him to the crowd of JEWS who condemed Jesus it was his own people who BETRAYED their own Christ. He was crowned King of the JEWS and tried for blahphemy
Jesus was murdered by Gods people they had the choice to allow one man to go free and they chose to crucify Jesus that day and allow the man who was conficted of murder to go free.
that is why the apostles and discliples HID inthe upper room for fear of the jews.
It was not the enemy of God who killed His only begotten Son it was his own people.
he was considered guilty of blasphemy and sentenced to die for it. this was his own religous people demanding Justice.
you speak of betrayal? it was those who saw and witnessed in person his miricles his love his ministryhis teachings who said he deserved to die.
We all have consequence in life, that is why we seek Jeuss as Lord and need a God, consequences are due to the fact we make CHOICES that involve pain and hurt. God does not punish anyone today nor does Jesus Christ he is the Saviour of mankind not the mafia leader.
it would change the topic to begin about rewards and damation at the throne of Jesus now on this thread.. but suffice to say it has nothing to do with how we should behave towards another now , our commandment is clear we are to love and serve one another. to seek God etc. or be as those who crucified the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God once again.
the events of the crucifixion had to be played out in the manner they were, Jesus had to be betrayed, to be arrested , go to court and be brought before his own people who decided he was the one to die.
It was not the ruler of the city(he found nothing to try the man) who brought him to the crowd of JEWS who condemed Jesus it was his own people who BETRAYED their own Christ.
Jesus was murdered by Gods people they had the choice to allow one man to go free and they chose to crucify Jesus that day and allow the man who was conficted of murder to go free.
that is why the apostles and discliples HID inthe upper room for fear of the jews.
It was not the enemy of God who killed His only begotten Son it was his own people.
Actually Pond--one could easily come to the more accepted conclusion. It was God who killed Him--for you and I. An innocent sacrifice--which is what makes it so amazing. That is the love He has for us. That is the true gospel.
Jesus gave up his life, he could have lived, he was offered the entire world by satans hand , and said no he wanted to be with His Fathers will. He always obeyed . Jesus gave HIS LIFE because he loves us that much. God didnt Kill anyone , it was again the CHOICE of Jesus Christ to die because HE believed God would raise him from DEATH and guess what He was spot on RIGHT>
he won the victory HE WON what? ETERNAL LIFE FOR ALL OF MANKIND if YOU believe GOD made Jesus LORD of mankind by raising him from the DEATH of Mankind.
God didnt KILL anyone He gave us all life . even after we chose DEATH for our own self , he gives us another chance through Jesus to live with Him for eternity.
In my splinter group and I'm certain in TWI the reasonings like God loves us all, don't be legalistic, HE HAS A MINISTRY AFTER ALL, and the spiritual can handle this right so it's not really sin all were used to hide very nasty, dishonest, and wicked business.
IMO this type of ignoring sin based on some kind of FALSE idea of the Grace of God has been catostrophic for many of us.
In my splinter group and I'm certain in TWI the reasonings like God loves us all, don't be legalistic, HE HAS A MINISTRY AFTER ALL, and the spiritual can handle this right so it's not really sin all were used to hide very nasty, dishonest, and wicked business.
IMO this type of ignoring sin based on some kind of FALSE idea of the Grace of God has been catostrophic for many of us.
I agree God would not have his people ignorant . WE are to be aware yet innocent .
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ihrleben
Yes..... Matthew 12:31 (KJV)
Wherefore I say unto you, all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
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WordWolf
I think it's VERY interesting that 2 people in the Bible are called "the son of perdition" (or "the son of ruin" depending on your
translator), and that's Judas Iscariot, and the man of sins, spoken of as yet to come,
who opposes and exalts himself above God and all that is worshipped, so that he sits in the holy of holies,
and puts forth that he HIMSELF is God.
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rhino
Backing away from the Biblical definitions ... it seems simple enough that the more systematic and premeditated the abuse of power is, the more "wicked" it becomes.
The more willing someone in power is to ride roughshod over those he "controls" ... the more "evil" he is.
In TWI it seemed some advanced by bringing in more people/revenue ... some were more like thugs/enforcers.
We've already pretty much judged vp ... but what of his power structure? Did LCM just follow blindly along ... maybe he failed because he was not quite smart enough or ruthless enough to be really dedicated to destroying his challengers. But he seemed willing to take advantage of people ... I don't know, but I think he is better off now ... (though he doesn't seem to get what he did wrong, from what we hear)
There were all levels ... and many seemed like great guys ... just don't get in their way. VP had his gang around him for support, and challengers were dealt with as if it was the Devil challenging God himself.
So were the adulterers that did not quite force themselves on their flock less guilty? What about the guys at trunk that just pulled women's tube tops down, all in good fun ... or bullied people a little, but with the best of intentions? Are there lines not crossed that made some yes men less "evil"?
I don't know ... but our judicial system is set up to judge wrong ... and it would judge people in more authority more harshly. The more premeditated, the worse the crime. The less the consideration for the victims, the more brutal the act. The deceit of using a minister position to take advantage of young women is perhaps the most heinous act.
The actions at the top in TWI were premeditated, systematic, deceitful and cruel ... and except for a little trouble with his denomination, it seems vp got away with it all ..I can't imagine any old wayfers being able to match him ...
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geisha779
Hi Ben
A couple of things . . . .You said. . . .
When you say judge according to God's standards not the world's, I get that; however, we are not to judge because we don't know what's in a man's heart. In the cases of VPW and LCM, we have no right to judge them as good or bad, yet, we have the right to say that what they did was wrong--their fruits are bad, not they're bad people. You see, only God knows what those two were thinking and what led them to betray their sheep etc. Bottom line, we know part of their story, but certainly not all of it; therefore, we say they were wrong--it's God's place to judge.
Ben, God commands you to love Him with all of your heart-soul-MIND- and strength. He wants all of your reason and understanding as well as your tender heart. I really see your tenderness here. BUT Paul said:
2nd Cor :12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
He made a judgemet on these men. He wanted to cut the ground out from an under them! The reason it is sooooo tricky is because they were masquerading as Apostles of Christ. Did VP consider himself an Apostle? I heard that MANY times as he was bringing new light to the Church. I could be wrong, but that was the buzz I remember. Even if that is not 100% accurate, he acted the part. The reason I make such a judgement is VPW preached "Another" Gospel
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Again, Paul is judging those who preach "another" gospel.
Jesus commands us to use righteous judgement. John7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
Ben a good tree produces good fruit -- a corrupt tree corrupt fruit. We CAN know what kind of people they are. At least in VP's case--he came out of the church. That is a HUGE deal.
If we do not discern what kind of gospel is preached or by what kind of people-EXPOSED in the bible for us. We will go from one mess to another.
We have to be able to discern the emergent church-the peace and prosperitry gospel. False teachers. . . . .Benny Hinn is easy--what about someone like Joyce Myers?
Hebrews 5:14. . . . . . who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
People who come to Christ learn to discern truth from error and holy behavior from unholy behavior.
These are righteous judgements. I can't condemn VP to an eternity in hell. That is God's call. I can and MUST judge VP's gospel and his actions and his life which all tell me his heart and that he was NOT a Godly man--but a servant of evil.
Now, as far as LCM is concerned--here's one for you--He has been pulled away from TWI--his family -- lost all and is humbled. I hold out great hope for him. And I pray he repents.
Through illumination of the word the Holy Spirit provides His saints the capacity to discern divine truth, however, that doesn't mean we still don't need teachers or know it all--it takes hard work.
The danger is always judging . . . self-righteously. We had BETTER judge or discern these men spiritually or we end up in "The cult part 2" However, people with plain common sense know-good and evil as defined by the actions of VP.
Take Care
Wordwolf,
I didn't even think of that. It seems such an odd concept to me--that the betrayer of Jesus would be born again. We often lose the characteristic of God's that is the
most sobering--He is just. Jesus said he was a devil. We can make a good assumption from that. :)
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bowtwi
Ha! I shoulda known - yeah, it was twi that taught that. It made a huge impression on me regarding judging other people to hear that God was so just that he even forgave Judas because Judas repented and we'll see him at the bema... Velly intellestink!!! I'll have to rethink this.
My point of bringing Judas up was pretty much shot by the facts here - lol. But I still think the goal is to judge in terms of behaviors and not so much the people, although I admit I wouldn't invite lcm over to watch a movie, share a meal or go swimming with us.
Geisha - Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I agree with you, rascal - I think repentance is key. It makes my stomach turn every time I hear that line vpw used about wishing he were the man he knew to be - no he didn't - if he really wished that, he'd have done something about it.
Ham - Yeah, I think even the megalomaniac can be forgiven - not to be confused with trusted or welcomed back to the position with us they enjoyed before they showed they're not to be trusted, but forgiveness is for us - so that we don't carry that heavy and painful load of judgment around with it clouding up everything we're trying to do.
WordWolf - Wow - that's really interesting. I've now read a bunch off the internet about Judas. I'm reconsidering what I thought I knew about him as I said above to Tzaia. Again, thanks for taking the time to shed more light.
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pond
Concerning Judas
The time line is wrong, none of the disciples recieved holy spirit as a gift from God through Jesus because it was his Resurrection that enabled eternal life for all those who believe romans 10 and 9.
Also a interesting fact here is the fact Judas did kill his own self, he rejected Jesus as Lord , and his life ended when it all became to much .
I think those who reject Jesus today make the same choice. they live until life ends for them they hold no promise of the kingdom of the life God grants those who believe in Him . no eternal life just a life then death.
Judgement is not today we recieve consequences to be sure of bad choices, we are children of God growing up day by day. He is our father and the judgement is not for today if you believe in what Jesus christ did for mankind and for God you will have eternal life.
I do not know about folks who spend their days deciding who is the better christian and who sinned a bigger sin or for how long.. it seems to me that behaviour is exactly the problems Jesus had with the religous leaders and pharasee's who loved God and was pointing the finger at just how wrong the other guy was . it was the men and women who wanted to trick and scheme to bring judgements on others that Jesus said didnt know HIM and said their father was the devil.
In the very least so much energy spent deciding who is wrong and more wrong certainly takes away from the efort of loving one another which is to be our focus as Jesus clearly COMMANDS.
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pond
Im not talking about a pollly anna world either in which rose colored glass appear and everything is alright. What i Can and should judge is my own behaviour my own choices my own thoughts.
Is it ok for me to have sex with a married man, should I stay involved in an organizatio I know is capable of harm?
those are judgements we need to make for our own selfs. That is why the Lord is called a wonderful conselor because hhe does help us in making good choices and following His will for our life.
We are often warned of harm of people being sinners this is clear in the bible, no surprise to god when bad stuff happens to those he loves... He knows we are capable of following the wrong choice and getting into trouble here , that is exactly the reason He gave us a SAVIOUR.
Many involved in these groups particularly twi believe they are mini Jesus running the world today, with magic spells put on others and the ability to decide above God what another life was is or will be.
to take care of our own individual part in the body of this New creation is all god or Jesus asks and 9sorry to bust any bubble of ego) really all we can do for HIM.
Twi really taught some to focus on evil to think evil to give evil thoughts a name and a place in your life. it is the cult thinking of us vs them evil vs good (although the bible clearly states NONE are good) and in his last book life vs death.
the bible asks us to keep our mind on things ABOVE what this world has dished out , to think good thoughts and to do good unto all.
I mean if those who participate in this activity really think they are warning anyone about what vpw CAn do as far as sin it is a little late now he isnt capable of anymore harm.
so it seems to me it is only your time and your life your wasting away talking crap about another and trying real hard to white wash it with as a noble deed for mankind.
LCM is not the only one who has comminted adultry it seems to me it is so very common for those in position of authority to become corrupt today this is not a news flash for many today.
so what is the point I ask that one has to write a thread to decide who will be in the kingdom or who wont? I mean i believe I hope I will but tht is all it is a HOPE the story turns out alright I can not even know for certain it will be true in my own life. I just believe it to be so, it has not happened so I wont know till It happens.
why does it matter to YOU how big anothers sin is? why does it matter to YOU if a dead guy is going to be in the kingdom or not? all the threads in this world will never give you the power to decide any persons fate (thank God) .
Selling pfal is the core of this you know.. if you heard somone SIT you felt ou did God a favor you did a good thing for mankind.
not really god gives the increase so says the bible not YOU or PFAL and now this thinking has come full circle and you believe you can decide who will burn in hell and must discuss it .
some things for some people never change.
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waysider
I don't really have a dog in this fight but I did want to corroborate that VPW did teach that Judas was present at Pentecost.
My memory is very fuzzy on this one.
If I recall correctly, he was teaching on Pentecost , flew off the track, and started to babble about mathematical accuracy.
Then he went back to the Gospels and said that it doesn't say exactly WHEN he "hanged himself". Thus, by virtue of wierwillian logic, it allowed for the presence of Judas on The Day of Pentecost. Then of course, he used the record in Acts to prove he was "born-again" because there were no exclusions listed. Circular reasoning. And we all sat there enthralled with this new and unique twist on conventional thought because we were sure he must have gotten some sort of revelation. Remember how he was fond of saying, "Father told me" or something to that effect? I don't believe "Father" ever told him anything. He was a con artist who was adept at twisting words and feigning emotion.
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pond
waysider
he often went on about the prcision of what he thought the bible meant, and how it says what it means and means what it says, so in this case with judas he says well it must mean this ...
and it might not but like you said because he was a teacher we bought the sale.
father told him ? well the way i look at that is Father will tell me if i need to know. seriously maybe he did "tell" you but he didnt tell me does he love you more or something?
and that is how the dam elistist crap was.
i wish i was 50 when i was 20 .
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waysider
I just wish I was 50 NOW!
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Sunesis
I don't think Judas was there at Pentecost. I don't have my Bible with me now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it says straightway he went and hanged himself. Also, Peter, before Pentecost, met with the disciples and said, we need to choose someone to take his place, he called him the one appointed to destruction - something like that. So, they chose Mathias to take his place. Then we see the 12 - with Mathias - at Pentecost. Judas wasn't there.
I think an interesting point is, Jesus knew who Judas was. Yet, he loved him as the other disciples, let him carry the money, gave him every chance to repent, gave him the sop, signifying his love to him, at the last supper, i.e., treated him with loving kindness. Yet, man's heart can be hard and hateful against God. Judas refused the love of the Son of God and went out and betrayed him. What more could Christ have done?
If you read the Gospels (which VP discouraged), its very interesting to see exactly what it is that Jesus preaches. His main preaching is this: The Kingdom of God is coming. Believe on me, and freely enter in. Israel would not, yet we do see the Kingdom fulfilled in Revelation.
But the point is, I believe there is a new world, new kingdom coming. We can scoff, as Peter says in I or II Peter, but it will happen. Not everyone will enter. Judas rejected the offer.
As far as I know, when Satan needed to make sure something was done right, he so far has entered into/enters into only two people - Judas (to make sure the Messiah is killed, so the Kingdom cannot come, so Satans rule will never end); and the Antichrist to come - the Beast.
But no one can say Christ did not give Judas every opportunity to come to him.
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waysider
I never thought he was there either.
It says he hanged himself but I'm not sure about the straightway part
My point was that VP used his convoluted logic to teach something that defied conventional thought.
And, that we bought into it many times because we falsely believed he had some sort of insider information.
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ihrleben
Wordwolf:
I appreciate you challenging me. I'm not sure what version of the Bible you're using, but the KJV reads
2 Cor. 11:12-15 1. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15. Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
In these scriptures Paul isn't judging, he's warning us against false apostles and ministers--telling us what to look for. Also, Paul is saying that those who follow this path will reap what they sow, but I see no judgement here.
16 Marks of false ministers in 2 Cor.
1. Hold secret things of shame (4:2)
2. Walk in craftiness (4:2)
3. Handle Word deceitfully (4:2)
4. Walk and war after the flesh (10:3)
5. Look on outward appearance (10:7, 1 Sam. 16:7, Mt. 23:27-28)
6. Commend selves to others (10:12)
7. Compare selves to others (10:12)
8. Prey on works of others (10:15-16)
9. Greedy of income (11:7-12)
10. False: Seek highest offices (11:13)
11. Deceitful workers (11:13)
12. Counterfeit apostleship (11:13)
13. Pose as righteous ministers (11:15)
14. Seek occasion to glory (11:12)
15. Boastful and self-exalting (11:18)
16. Destitute of apostolic signs (12:12)
Satan inspires his ministers to imitate Christianity and even do miracles (Mt. 24:24, 2 Th. 2:8-12, Rev. 13; 16:13-16; 19:20).
John 2:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement. [\b]
This begs the questions what in context is this written and what is righteous judgement?
In these verses Jesus is rebuking inconsistent practices on the Sabbath.
ADAM CLARKE COMMENTARY
Attend to the law, not merely in the letter, but in its spirit and design. Learn that the law which commands men to rest on the Sabbath day is subordinate to the law of mercy and love, which requires them to be ever active to promote God's glory in the comfort and salvation of their fellow creatures; and endeavour to judge of the merit or demerit of an action, not from the first impression it may make upon your prejudices but from its tendency, and the motives of the person, as far as it is possible for you to acquaint yourselves with them; still believing the best, where you have no certain proof to the contrary.
JOHN GILL'S EXPOSITION ON THE BIBLE
Judge not according to the appearance…
Or through respect of persons, and so as to please men, the Scribes and Pharisees; who had condemned the action of Christ, in curing the diseased man on the sabbath day, and sought to kill him for it:
but judge righteous judgment;
give your sense and judgment of things, according to the truth and evidence of them; and do not find fault with that, which you yourselves allow of, and which Moses and his law, and your own practices, justify.
Matt. 7:1-5 1. Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
It seems to me that judgement is a risky endeavor with real consequences. Do we have the right to be casting stones?
Gal. 1:6-9 6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
In this context Paul is dealing with the things that the Galatians were doing wrong. I really don't feel like doing another list right now, so, I'm not going to go through it all. However, he was dealing with going back under the law and substituting it for the gospel, which was perverting the gospel of Christ. You see, the gospel had not only been preached to them, but they had received it and the benefits of it.
Going back to....
ADAM CLARKE
Verse 7. Which is not another
It is called a gospel, but it differs most essentially from the authentic narratives published by the evangelists. It is not gospel, i.e. good tidings, for it loads you again with the burdens from which the genuine Gospel has disencumbered you. Instead of giving you peace, it troubles you; instead of being a useful supplement to the Gospel of Christ, it perverts that Gospel. You have gained nothing but loss and damage by the change.
Verse 8. But though we, or an angel
That Gospel which I have already preached to you is the only true Gospel; were I to preach any other, I should incur the curse of God. If your false teachers pretend, as many in early times did, that they received their accounts by the ministry of an angel, let them be accursed; separate them from your company, and have no religious communion with them. Leave them to God who will show his displeasure against all who corrupt, all who add to, and all who take from the word of his revelation.
Verse 9. Let him be accursed
Perhaps this is not designed as an imprecation, but a simple direction; for the word here may be understood as implying that such a person should, have no countenance in his bad work, but let him, as Theodoret expresses it, αλλοτριοςεστωτουκοινουσωματοςτηςεκκλησιας, be separated from the communion of the Church. This, however, would also imply that unless the person repented, the Divine judgments would soon follow.
Again, I don't see judgement here. He's telling the people to walk away if they need to, and not to commune with them that teach falsely lest they be corrupted. I see the pointing out of wrongs, and the consequences that will follow if they continue. It is left to God to meet out Divine judgement.
Moving on....
Gal. 6:1-8 1. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4. But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5. For every man shall bear his own burden. 6. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
This whole section is key in dealing with TWI, but pay close attention to verses seven and eight....
What we see are two destinies. One of living according to the spirit and one according to the flesh, but no judgements on Paul's part. These are consequences of bad choices.
It's about choices...
Just as surely as everything in nature reproduces after its kind, harvests being as sure as the sowings, so every man will reap what he sows and be responsible for his one destiny. It is folly to talk about reaping eternal life when one sows to the flesh; just as, it is folly to talk about reaping flesh if one sows to the spirit.
To judge or not to judge that is the question.
Whew, my head hurts!
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pond
Nice post Ben I hope you feel better soon.
I just have one thing to add on a much simpler note.
since we brought up the fact of 50 or something or other I say Now I am willing to step back and consider...
the impulse of youth grants indulgence of learning, and I have had more than one lesson I will NEVER go through THAT experience again.
so I learned.
my point is
I have confessed to be a christian for forty years now, and when i was youger days I could point a finger and say right wrong right wrong.. not so today I have learned the Lord works in some crazy mixed up fried and any other word you want world.
He is able He truly is, and to "get the job done" he works within a mix of souls blessing us all .
I would be amiss to say I get all people or understand all people but I can clearly know the LORD does and he works with each of his children just were they are at hence it makes for a new creation like I have yet to understand or at times even like but do indeed recognize.
I preach not tolerance but understanding the ways of god are a mystery to us as it should be or we would tell the enemy satan all the secrets to get us out of this "fleshy " thought process and he in turn would fight harder and more bastardly to hurt the mission that Jesus seeks today.
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geisha779
Hey Ben
It was my post not Wordwolf's and apparently you didn't quite catch it all.
I said:"These are righteous judgements. I can't condemn VP to an eternity in hell. That is God's call. I can and MUST judge VP's gospel and his actions and his life which all tell me his heart and that he was NOT a Godly man--but a servant of evil."
Fair enough Ben--you and I see things differently, or we are both parsing words.
Fool me once. . . . .
Take Care
Geisha
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excathedra
nice post pond #65
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geisha779
Hi Ben,
Just wanted to add this--although what you said didn't really oppose my thread(I don't think you really fully read it)--you seem intent we not judge men like VP.(Meaning call them exactly what they are) Not doing so from a common sense point is absurd and from a biblical standpoint wrong as well. As I said--we better judge them according to their fruit--and we had better know their FALSE gospel. Discern --not condemn them to hell (God's Call). But. . . call them who they are and warn others. We have to make a right judgement to do this.
Is it okay if we call them. . . . . "the first born of Satan?"
That one was for you ID :)
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rascal
I don`t think that we can condemn them to hell. I DO think however, that we can know what their hearts were by examining the fruit in their lives. Galatians 5 says point blankk that anyone who does what wierwille does....is of the flesh and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Whether we forgive them or love them or hate them...that is what they are and the consequences of being who they are. They themselves have earned the condemnation of God.
I think that in the scriptures, there are instances of great love, compassion and forgivness demonstrated, likewise there are seem to be situations where there were no exhortations to forgive or love...but even warnings to stay away from certain people.
The doctrine we were taught of all love, all forgiveness, no consequences because we are in the grace administration WERE taught by a very evil person who wished to seek coorboration and justification for refusing the walk of a christian.
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rascal
Suniesis, I have great respect for your understanding of the scriptures. Have you read the manuscripts about Judas? I can`t remember the details, but there are many many manuscripts that were rejected by the counsel that chose which ones were to be cannonized.
In this book as I remember reading about it, Judas was actually a hero. It was necessary for Jesus to be betrayed, in order for the new birth to be available. Jesus asked Judas to do it, basically is the gist as I remember it.
Any chance this fits in with the scriptures and love that Jesus displayed?
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pond
the events of the crucifixion had to be played out in the manner they were, Jesus had to be betrayed, to be arrested , go to court and be brought before his own people who decided he was the one to die.
It was not the ruler of the city(he found nothing to try the man) who convicted Jesus he brought him to the crowd of JEWS who condemed Jesus it was his own people who BETRAYED their own Christ. He was crowned King of the JEWS and tried for blahphemy
Jesus was murdered by Gods people they had the choice to allow one man to go free and they chose to crucify Jesus that day and allow the man who was conficted of murder to go free.
that is why the apostles and discliples HID inthe upper room for fear of the jews.
It was not the enemy of God who killed His only begotten Son it was his own people.
he was considered guilty of blasphemy and sentenced to die for it. this was his own religous people demanding Justice.
you speak of betrayal? it was those who saw and witnessed in person his miricles his love his ministryhis teachings who said he deserved to die.
We all have consequence in life, that is why we seek Jeuss as Lord and need a God, consequences are due to the fact we make CHOICES that involve pain and hurt. God does not punish anyone today nor does Jesus Christ he is the Saviour of mankind not the mafia leader.
it would change the topic to begin about rewards and damation at the throne of Jesus now on this thread.. but suffice to say it has nothing to do with how we should behave towards another now , our commandment is clear we are to love and serve one another. to seek God etc. or be as those who crucified the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God once again.
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geisha779
Actually Pond--one could easily come to the more accepted conclusion. It was God who killed Him--for you and I. An innocent sacrifice--which is what makes it so amazing. That is the love He has for us. That is the true gospel.
I have to get off the internet!!!--LOL :) :)
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pond
Jesus gave up his life, he could have lived, he was offered the entire world by satans hand , and said no he wanted to be with His Fathers will. He always obeyed . Jesus gave HIS LIFE because he loves us that much. God didnt Kill anyone , it was again the CHOICE of Jesus Christ to die because HE believed God would raise him from DEATH and guess what He was spot on RIGHT>
he won the victory HE WON what? ETERNAL LIFE FOR ALL OF MANKIND if YOU believe GOD made Jesus LORD of mankind by raising him from the DEATH of Mankind.
God didnt KILL anyone He gave us all life . even after we chose DEATH for our own self , he gives us another chance through Jesus to live with Him for eternity.
suffice to say we wholly disagree on that!
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JeffSjo
Dear friends,
In my splinter group and I'm certain in TWI the reasonings like God loves us all, don't be legalistic, HE HAS A MINISTRY AFTER ALL, and the spiritual can handle this right so it's not really sin all were used to hide very nasty, dishonest, and wicked business.
IMO this type of ignoring sin based on some kind of FALSE idea of the Grace of God has been catostrophic for many of us.
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pond
I agree God would not have his people ignorant . WE are to be aware yet innocent .
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