I see your point rascal.. I think you're saying to rely on the abuser's system of ethics to judge, or just understand the abuser, just is insane to begin with. It's a carefully crafted belief system, that leaves the perpetrator above recrimination.. purposely leaves loopholes that the mogster can (generally) exclusively rely upon for escape..
He was angry, threw a fit, screamed and ripped some poor soul apart..
oh, he was *spiritually* angry. Maybe his *needs* weren't being met..
then the fornication and adultery (and worse) issue..
oh, he needs his *needs* met, so he's not distracted, so he can bring forth der mighty wordagawd..
can steal with practical impunity..
I came face to face with this kind of iniquity.. with confrontation, it hisses back.. it thinks that it's righteous..
Thanks Polar bear, I agree. VPW to me, is the epitome of the pharacees that Jesus so detested.
He, like they were polished, well educated, presented himself as the leader, the connection to God.
Did the pharacees teach the scritpture of their day? Did they extort money and goods in God`s name?
I saw a neat thing on the history channel one time. (I have shared this before) but it fits here as well.
There are STILL sepulchers...above ground tombs that are painted white in the Jeruselem cemetary. The guide was telling the tv host that the REASON the sepulchers were painted white was for when the person inside had died of a disease that might be spread. It was a warning, a warning to the living and healthy to avoid contact, to not get near because the disease inside could still infect and kill.
How telling is that?? To the people of Jeruselem that understood the significance of the whited sepulcher...the clean white shiny exterior, was filled with infectious disease and death on the inside.
Sounds like your description of VPW to me, Polar Bear.
Precisely Mr. Ham, and well said.
Geisha, you bring up some very interesting points to consider, I need some time to digest a few things.
He murdered them the folks who followed the teachings of christ he sought them as enemys and slaughterd many .
I would be afraid of Him.
then in His encouter with Jesus He changed his behaviour and well it is written.
now do ya think they woke up one day and said that Paul guy the ones who KILLED and seeks to murder us is now a changed man?
well they did. but i would have had doubts if one day he didnt slip and decide well this was a cult and Im going back to do Gods work and kill them all !
he didnt but he could have .
Jesus brought us a Grace in this time that is beyond measure, and as stated the motive must be love.. not loving to kill one another, so he lived met Jesus and God allowed him a ministry that changed the very course of all time.
he was a man who killed in his belief it was the right thing to do for GOD. He thought he was doing the right thing but was very wrong.
those who lost the people they loved had to forgive him to follow his teachings Im thinking some may have said well jesus is just alright with me but that Paul is another story and chose to not heed his leadership.
Um Pond...so what ??? You are talking about Guys who REPENTED when confronted by God....Paul REPENTED! So did David....they THEN became men who changed history...how could that in anyway compare with a guy who spent a lifetime of inflicting great evil throughout his entire lifetime, and never repented or made amends.
I don`t think we are on the same page here. You are talking about a man who repented and did good. I am talking about a person who did great evil, after he supposedly was working for a God, who did great evil in God`s name, who led people away from God...who NEVER repented...guess I figure this is a whole different ball of wax.
Preach on about Pauls greatness..I agree with you...but that isn`t what I am talking about here.
T&O..Jesus wasn`t angry when he chased the money changers out of the temple with whips and flipping over their tables? Or Jesus telling the pharacees that they were filled with death and disease inside while being pretty and shiny on the outside....
...
Aren`t there passages that talk about the things that God hates?? A proud look, a haughty something or other...Didn`t he instruct the judeans to kill entire nations of people...not only every single man woman and child, but their cattle and belongings as well.
...
Doesn`t sound like all loving all of the time to me. Like wise, it seems to me like there are stuff that moves one out of the category of screw up needing forgiveness and evil that needs to be condemned.
....
It seems like there is a point where Even God in all of his love gives up
....
As stated before, anger and love are not opposites. You can love and be angry quite easily at the same time. In fact, it's almost a normal thing when you have unruly kids! lol..
Also as stated before, God's love is not about being nice and friendly. It's about taking care and giving people what they need. Sometimes a friendly smile, sometimes a stern look, sometimes a good face melting to help you see the seriousness of the situation. And when there is nothing more you can give them that will help, removing them may be the only choice in hopes that others will learn from it.. That's all.. Love. Yes, not as the world teaches, but as God demonstrates day after day.
Was Vp evil, sure.. Did he repent, doubtfull. But withholding forgiveness because you wish to prosecute him YOURSELF, really does no good for you. To hold onto that resentment, anger, and what else. Only hurts you my friend, only hurts you. Doesn't do anything for him, he's dead. Doesn't mean you stop informing others of his evil deeds to warn them, it just means, you've given it to God to handle his final judgment. From there, warning others, helping others, that's what God has us here for. But if we never forgive those who persecute us, then we're only hurting ourselves, and that's why God says to forgive, He wants to help you, because God loves you!
Paul, if one believes the story, had an encounter with the Almighty.
Now if I had such an encounter, "hey dude, you're in the wrong profession here.." might it have a little bearing on my conduct after the encounter?
Now the victoid claimed to have had a life-changing encounter with the almighty. I can only see two possibilities..
1. he lied to gain trust, to legitimatize his false ministry.
2. he told the truth. but in his case, he got worse.. "mere" adultery turned to unabashed abuse, druggings, cruel manipulation.. in this case, unlike Paul, the almighty proved powerless to produce any kind of change. The vicster would be then the kind of character that COULDN'T change.
It's a valid comparison.. Paul proved to be faithful.. the vicster proved to be only faithful to his lusts..
I can't give chapter and verse, but it seems to me there's something important about our own behavior, our own conversation, regardless of what those around us do and say. I'm not excusing bad behavior, I'm just saying that I feel like I'm only gonna be held responsible for what I do and say, not what anyone else (unless it's my child younger than the age of reason).
And again, forgiveness does not mean you allow that person that abused back in close enough to be able to hurt you again. It means you no longer have to keep their crud in the forefront of YOUR mind. It FREES YOU. It may appear to free them, but it's really all about freeing YOU so you're able to move forward.
and like a *true* pharisee, he compassed land and sea to find that one, *special*, dedicated disciple, whom he could make two-fold the child of hell that he himself proved to be..
I dunno.. forgive a blood-sucking megalomaniac? I don't know if one really can.. if he goes on to wrong one's own brothers and sisters, and never repents, isn't it the same as doing the same thing to you again?
I really hate the saying "chapter and verse", but umm, I have to say, I don't think you'll find that anywhere in the scriptures, that "OUR" hearts are only evil continuously.. Now, maybe you are referring to prior to the flood and it mentions that "THEIR" hearts were. Thus the reason for the flood. But umm, our hearts.. No.. I think you are mistaken in that. And if you don't agree, that's fine. I can agree to disagree. I just don't see any evidence scripturally for that.
Hi, no problem--Rusty on bible gothcha though. . . . these are theological discussions and must have an authoritative referee. However, you do understand the concept that Jesus came to reveal the human heart don't you? The questions He asked and how He brought it back to the human condition --well I am always awestruck. I know what you are saying about the flood--so how is this for you-- Ephesians 4:18 We are excluded from the life of God because of the hardness of our hearts. It was also prophesied in the OT that He would take our STONY heart and give us a new heart.Ezekiel 36:26 You really should probably look into the condition of the human heart a bit deeper. The nature of man is NOT good. Mark 7:21We all know that after the flood everyones heart was magically better and we no longer needed a savior???
To also say God is able to cause all he chooses to repent, must also be taken with the fact that God will not force a person against their will. So while he could probably force everyone to, that's another topic. How do you know Paul's heart wasn't in the right? Religiously misguided, killing Christians, sure.. But that's doesn't mean his motive, his intent, his heart was to go against God. Could be just the opposite. In fact, I consider him a man that had a love to do God's will, a Pharisee of the Pharisee, did everything to the T he knew was right, sat at the feet of the greats to learn and to act, only to be led by them vipers to do what he didn't realize was against God and did their evil will. And it took Christ actually appearing to him to make him realize, the ones whom He was persecuting wasn't the ones in the wrong. Sometimes, it takes that. Only God knows. That's why we leave it up to Him to lead, because he knows what each person needs.
I never said anything different--why do you think God chose Paul. But, Paul was aware and called himself cheif among sinners. What did God do to get Paul to repent? He still does it today--shows Himself--God appointed Paul for a purpose--God's purpose. It is the goodness of God which leads US to repentence, ---the convicting work of the Holy Spirit--not our own power-never. You have not chosen me I have chosen you. I cannot imagine you are going to tell me that those whom God chooses He is unable to cause repentance in? Does He choose some for vessels of wrath or destruction? You tell me. Is God unjust? God's purpose His plan--He tells me to discern. I didn't once--I do now.
Also, just to make the distinction here, the topic of the thread. There is a distinction between those who repent with their mouths and actions, but have no repented from the heart. Many who look and act holy sometimes are the most vile people in the world, and sometimes those whose heart is to help can make mistakes that can cost people their lives. And yes, by their fruit we will know. Not their actions. There is a difference.
So how does that preclude us from righteous Godly judgement?--Paul had no problem judging a false prophets fate? That is what we are talking about here. A distinction between those Jesus revealed Himself to and those He condemns
The Vicster.. Well, his fruits are now known. The Way, being the fruit of his labor, is a terrible place for many. Unfortunately, most didn't know the actions that caused the fruit until now. And that's a shame. Because I think most of those actions were pretty blatant, but sometimes all we have is his fruit to see, and someone was sure labeling those rotten apples as sweet peaches..
Well, here I totally disagree-the fruit was NOT all we had to judge by. We had the truth of WHO Jesus is--We missed it by a mile. That is my shame--to ever have denied His deity. Loving Christians tried to tell me. What a foolish girl I was. .
When I first got to the greasespot one of the first things that I shared with you was my desire to not judge because of my own shortcomings. As a man I've been in situations with women that were wrong, plain and simple. One of my concerns then was that how could I speak against TWI leadership knowing that I have had inapropriate lust for women in my heart too.
But my life is not the life of TWI leadership.
I learned from them and credited them with the things that I've learned that have stood the test of time for me. Dr. Wierwille lied when he said the things he learned were from years of study using the bible as his only reference. To me, GOD IS GENUINE, Dr. Wierwille lied.
I have been with single and willing women and am now sorry for it. Dr. Wierwille abused young women who were under his control and lied about it until his death. And his insane disciples continue to do everything in their power to quelch the truth of this matter.
For me to fight for truth and honesty in these matters is something that I already have come to grips with for myself to the best of my ability.
To stand against the continued abuse of TWI victims is A TOTAL NO-BRAINER.
What do you believe about Judas? Jesus knew before Judas betrayed him what was going to happen. Jesus sat and ate with him the night before, even.
Do you believe Judas was born again, heaven-bound and all hell can't stop him? Would betraying Jesus fit in the category of all hell which can't stop him?
I'm not trying to argue, my intention is discussion.
I've heard it said that Judas was born again and as such, heaven-bound...
I'm not totally sure what I believe.
And Ham, forgiveness is not the same thing as putting one's self back in the same danger once one learns of that danger. Just thinking out loud here, but in the case of vpw, who is dead and not about to assault anyone else, forgiveness would be easier to try to pull off. lcm, on the other hand, although I believe it's best for us to forgive (not to be confused with forget), would be harder to deal with.
I'm just not sure what we can do to protect future possible victims beyond posting our stories here and pray. That's what I do. Besides, we're all going to be judged in the end by a fair judge, not someone as limited as myself.
Bottom line to me is I feel better when I don't hold all that anger inside me. God's much better equipped to handle that kind of heavy load than I am. I'd never let anyone have that kind of control over me in the future, and that's about the best I can hope for.
I kinda think the vicster is in a backroom somewhere, getting the beating of his life from some kind of "committee" because this time through life he didn't "get it".. I think there are a lot more powerful souls than he..
Now Judas.. I dunno. I've heard a few varying viewpoints, and not all strictly biblical.. not sure what to think yet.
I don't hold in anger either.. you may not pick that up from my posts.
I think the problem is that we are dealing with "collective" sins- sins and transgressions, not against individuals, but practically against a whole collective body of individuals, maybe even against humanity.. The betrayal of trust for the victims is horrendous, but what about the rest who buy the public personna, and extoll the virtues of der manogawd for the world? We were all damaged.. some irrepairably.. some sing the vicster's virtues despite hearing the truth..
I think it's a whole different category of iniquity involved here.
If it were just me.. I think it would be far easier to just let it go. Like the guy who "borrowed" seventy dollars from me in 1975, who I haven't seen for dust since.. so what. I let go of that, even without an apology.. or explanation..
I just read through II Peter 2, the entire chapter, to get the context of II Peter 2:19-22, which WordWolf found for me earlier on this thread. I'll post it in the Doctrinal forum so as not to derail this thread any further. I think it's very cool and totally applicable to this subject. I read it in the NASB version - just for fun.
moving up to 1942.. just SUPPOSE for a moment, that the lord appeared to herr vicster, with an AUDIBLE VOICE. and corroborating mystic snow on the gas pumps..
The first time I heard that, I leaned over to my husband and said, "We have a name for that where I come from - schizophrenia."
He heard a voice and saw something that couldn't be there, and people thought that was miraculous?
What do you believe about Judas? Jesus knew before Judas betrayed him what was going to happen. Jesus sat and ate with him the night before, even.
Do you believe Judas was born again, heaven-bound and all hell can't stop him? Would betraying Jesus fit in the category of all hell which can't stop him?
I'm not trying to argue, my intention is discussion.
I've heard it said that Judas was born again and as such, heaven-bound...
I know you didn't ask me, but...
Wow. I missed that one. Judas. hmmm. Was he just some poor sap that got caught up in all the drama, or was he some evil guy? Since being "born again" was technically not available until the day of Pentecost, and he had already been dead several weeks - and replaced, wouldn't it be a stretch to believe he was born again and heaven-bound?
The timeline just doesn't fit.
Did TWI teach that? And why does it matter whether he made it or not?
I know you didn't ask me either--take this for whatever you want, but it is an answer from John MacArthur. He did his seminary thesis on Judas. Really good pastor BTW.
Not wanting to derail-but what a fascinating question. I remember TWI said he was there on Pentecost-right?
Was Judas saved?
Answer
I wrote my thesis in seminary on that subject—on the subject of Judas Iscariot—because I was fascinated by him. Let me show you the several views. There are, incidentally, people who believe Judas was saved. There are many views.
1. The first view is what’s called the patriotic view, recorded in an Apocryphal book entitled, “The Story of Joseph of Arimathea.”
There were a lot of books written after the New Testament that were Apocryphal books, and one of them was this one, “The Story of Joseph of Arimathea.” And in that book, Judas is presented as the brother of Caiaphas, the high priest. He was persuaded by the Jewish leaders to become a member of Jesus’ inner circle. And when he got into Jesus’ inner circle as the brother of Caiaphas, he was a spy. And the reason the people, the leaders of Israel were always giving Jesus a hard time was because there was a guy in the camp who was always telling them what was going on. He was a member of the Sikkarii (sp?), which were the wild revolutionaries who were setting about to destroy Jesus.
Now that view is that Judas, poor soul, was a misguided patriot. The poor guy was working for the high priest. What better place for a guy to be. This guy was devoted to the high priest, and surely God would see him simply as a misguided patriot.
2. There is a second view, and that is what’s called the kingdom view.
This view is the liberal view, the view of liberal theologians today, and they say that the reason Judas betrayed Jesus was because he wanted to force Jesus into a situation where he would have to set up the kingdom. Judas was tired of everyone hassling Jesus. Judas was tired of the Romans ruling the world, the world in which they lived. And Judas just wanted to help Jesus get the kingdom going, so he betrayed him so he could get him in a position to do what he did. And he had a pure, positive, wonderful motive. And then when the kingdom didn’t happen, he went out and killed himself in terrible disappointment.
But that doesn’t make it. The patriotic view doesn’t make it because we have absolutely no evidence, and the second view of the kingdom aspect doesn’t make it because Jesus said, “One of you is a”—what—“is a devil—one of you is a devil.” And Jesus said, “It was better for that man if he’d never been”—what—“born.”
3. No, there was only one reason that Judas betrayed Jesus, and it was simple. It was greed. Greed.
He was an ungodly, ambitious, selfish man. He could have come to Jesus, but he didn’t. He is the greatest story of lost opportunity the world has ever, ever heard.
I forget who it was that wrote, “Man as of old by himself is priced. For thirty pieces Judas sold himself, not Christ.” And that’s right. He was a man totally dominated by greed. There are some who want to imagine that Judas was saved, but there’s no evidence whatsoever. “One of you is a devil,” said Jesus. And when he died, it says he went to his what? "His own place."
No, I don’t believe Judas was saved. He is even called the son of perdition
Is that a judgment for you to make? Could there not have been a cry out to God for forgiveness amid the anguish that led him to take his life?
Hi,
You will have to take that up with Pastor MacArthur Oenophile--his words not mine. But, I am pretty sure he didn't pass judgement on Judas--just said he didn't believe he was saved. That is called an opinion.
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Ham
I see your point rascal.. I think you're saying to rely on the abuser's system of ethics to judge, or just understand the abuser, just is insane to begin with. It's a carefully crafted belief system, that leaves the perpetrator above recrimination.. purposely leaves loopholes that the mogster can (generally) exclusively rely upon for escape..
He was angry, threw a fit, screamed and ripped some poor soul apart..
oh, he was *spiritually* angry. Maybe his *needs* weren't being met..
then the fornication and adultery (and worse) issue..
oh, he needs his *needs* met, so he's not distracted, so he can bring forth der mighty wordagawd..
can steal with practical impunity..
I came face to face with this kind of iniquity.. with confrontation, it hisses back.. it thinks that it's righteous..
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rascal
Thanks Polar bear, I agree. VPW to me, is the epitome of the pharacees that Jesus so detested.
He, like they were polished, well educated, presented himself as the leader, the connection to God.
Did the pharacees teach the scritpture of their day? Did they extort money and goods in God`s name?
I saw a neat thing on the history channel one time. (I have shared this before) but it fits here as well.
There are STILL sepulchers...above ground tombs that are painted white in the Jeruselem cemetary. The guide was telling the tv host that the REASON the sepulchers were painted white was for when the person inside had died of a disease that might be spread. It was a warning, a warning to the living and healthy to avoid contact, to not get near because the disease inside could still infect and kill.
How telling is that?? To the people of Jeruselem that understood the significance of the whited sepulcher...the clean white shiny exterior, was filled with infectious disease and death on the inside.
Sounds like your description of VPW to me, Polar Bear.
Precisely Mr. Ham, and well said.
Geisha, you bring up some very interesting points to consider, I need some time to digest a few things.
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waysider
I'm not really sure anymore.
That might be a good topic for a thread.
(Probably already been done, somewhere in here.)
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pond
I do think of Paul and his conversion.
He murdered them the folks who followed the teachings of christ he sought them as enemys and slaughterd many .
I would be afraid of Him.
then in His encouter with Jesus He changed his behaviour and well it is written.
now do ya think they woke up one day and said that Paul guy the ones who KILLED and seeks to murder us is now a changed man?
well they did. but i would have had doubts if one day he didnt slip and decide well this was a cult and Im going back to do Gods work and kill them all !
he didnt but he could have .
Jesus brought us a Grace in this time that is beyond measure, and as stated the motive must be love.. not loving to kill one another, so he lived met Jesus and God allowed him a ministry that changed the very course of all time.
he was a man who killed in his belief it was the right thing to do for GOD. He thought he was doing the right thing but was very wrong.
those who lost the people they loved had to forgive him to follow his teachings Im thinking some may have said well jesus is just alright with me but that Paul is another story and chose to not heed his leadership.
This is Gods record of events not mine.
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rascal
Um Pond...so what ??? You are talking about Guys who REPENTED when confronted by God....Paul REPENTED! So did David....they THEN became men who changed history...how could that in anyway compare with a guy who spent a lifetime of inflicting great evil throughout his entire lifetime, and never repented or made amends.
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pond
well he spent a good many years killing and being wrong, nd as far as repentance what did he do exactly? He had a ministry.
I am not the one who forgives sin Rascal , Jesus is by his very life. how many times can a person be forgiven?
you sure ?
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rascal
I don`t think we are on the same page here. You are talking about a man who repented and did good. I am talking about a person who did great evil, after he supposedly was working for a God, who did great evil in God`s name, who led people away from God...who NEVER repented...guess I figure this is a whole different ball of wax.
Preach on about Pauls greatness..I agree with you...but that isn`t what I am talking about here.
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TrustAndObey
As stated before, anger and love are not opposites. You can love and be angry quite easily at the same time. In fact, it's almost a normal thing when you have unruly kids! lol..
Also as stated before, God's love is not about being nice and friendly. It's about taking care and giving people what they need. Sometimes a friendly smile, sometimes a stern look, sometimes a good face melting to help you see the seriousness of the situation. And when there is nothing more you can give them that will help, removing them may be the only choice in hopes that others will learn from it.. That's all.. Love. Yes, not as the world teaches, but as God demonstrates day after day.
Was Vp evil, sure.. Did he repent, doubtfull. But withholding forgiveness because you wish to prosecute him YOURSELF, really does no good for you. To hold onto that resentment, anger, and what else. Only hurts you my friend, only hurts you. Doesn't do anything for him, he's dead. Doesn't mean you stop informing others of his evil deeds to warn them, it just means, you've given it to God to handle his final judgment. From there, warning others, helping others, that's what God has us here for. But if we never forgive those who persecute us, then we're only hurting ourselves, and that's why God says to forgive, He wants to help you, because God loves you!
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Ham
Paul, if one believes the story, had an encounter with the Almighty.
Now if I had such an encounter, "hey dude, you're in the wrong profession here.." might it have a little bearing on my conduct after the encounter?
Now the victoid claimed to have had a life-changing encounter with the almighty. I can only see two possibilities..
1. he lied to gain trust, to legitimatize his false ministry.
2. he told the truth. but in his case, he got worse.. "mere" adultery turned to unabashed abuse, druggings, cruel manipulation.. in this case, unlike Paul, the almighty proved powerless to produce any kind of change. The vicster would be then the kind of character that COULDN'T change.
It's a valid comparison.. Paul proved to be faithful.. the vicster proved to be only faithful to his lusts..
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bowtwi
I can't give chapter and verse, but it seems to me there's something important about our own behavior, our own conversation, regardless of what those around us do and say. I'm not excusing bad behavior, I'm just saying that I feel like I'm only gonna be held responsible for what I do and say, not what anyone else (unless it's my child younger than the age of reason).
And again, forgiveness does not mean you allow that person that abused back in close enough to be able to hurt you again. It means you no longer have to keep their crud in the forefront of YOUR mind. It FREES YOU. It may appear to free them, but it's really all about freeing YOU so you're able to move forward.
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Ham
and like a *true* pharisee, he compassed land and sea to find that one, *special*, dedicated disciple, whom he could make two-fold the child of hell that he himself proved to be..
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Ham
I dunno.. forgive a blood-sucking megalomaniac? I don't know if one really can.. if he goes on to wrong one's own brothers and sisters, and never repents, isn't it the same as doing the same thing to you again?
just a thought..
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geisha779
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JeffSjo
Dear Rascal,
When I first got to the greasespot one of the first things that I shared with you was my desire to not judge because of my own shortcomings. As a man I've been in situations with women that were wrong, plain and simple. One of my concerns then was that how could I speak against TWI leadership knowing that I have had inapropriate lust for women in my heart too.
But my life is not the life of TWI leadership.
I learned from them and credited them with the things that I've learned that have stood the test of time for me. Dr. Wierwille lied when he said the things he learned were from years of study using the bible as his only reference. To me, GOD IS GENUINE, Dr. Wierwille lied.
I have been with single and willing women and am now sorry for it. Dr. Wierwille abused young women who were under his control and lied about it until his death. And his insane disciples continue to do everything in their power to quelch the truth of this matter.
For me to fight for truth and honesty in these matters is something that I already have come to grips with for myself to the best of my ability.
To stand against the continued abuse of TWI victims is A TOTAL NO-BRAINER.
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bowtwi
Rascal & Ham,
What do you believe about Judas? Jesus knew before Judas betrayed him what was going to happen. Jesus sat and ate with him the night before, even.
Do you believe Judas was born again, heaven-bound and all hell can't stop him? Would betraying Jesus fit in the category of all hell which can't stop him?
I'm not trying to argue, my intention is discussion.
I've heard it said that Judas was born again and as such, heaven-bound...
I'm not totally sure what I believe.
And Ham, forgiveness is not the same thing as putting one's self back in the same danger once one learns of that danger. Just thinking out loud here, but in the case of vpw, who is dead and not about to assault anyone else, forgiveness would be easier to try to pull off. lcm, on the other hand, although I believe it's best for us to forgive (not to be confused with forget), would be harder to deal with.
I'm just not sure what we can do to protect future possible victims beyond posting our stories here and pray. That's what I do. Besides, we're all going to be judged in the end by a fair judge, not someone as limited as myself.
Bottom line to me is I feel better when I don't hold all that anger inside me. God's much better equipped to handle that kind of heavy load than I am. I'd never let anyone have that kind of control over me in the future, and that's about the best I can hope for.
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Ham
I'm not entirely sure of what I believe, either..
:)
I kinda think the vicster is in a backroom somewhere, getting the beating of his life from some kind of "committee" because this time through life he didn't "get it".. I think there are a lot more powerful souls than he..
Now Judas.. I dunno. I've heard a few varying viewpoints, and not all strictly biblical.. not sure what to think yet.
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Ham
I don't hold in anger either.. you may not pick that up from my posts.
I think the problem is that we are dealing with "collective" sins- sins and transgressions, not against individuals, but practically against a whole collective body of individuals, maybe even against humanity.. The betrayal of trust for the victims is horrendous, but what about the rest who buy the public personna, and extoll the virtues of der manogawd for the world? We were all damaged.. some irrepairably.. some sing the vicster's virtues despite hearing the truth..
I think it's a whole different category of iniquity involved here.
If it were just me.. I think it would be far easier to just let it go. Like the guy who "borrowed" seventy dollars from me in 1975, who I haven't seen for dust since.. so what. I let go of that, even without an apology.. or explanation..
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bowtwi
I just read through II Peter 2, the entire chapter, to get the context of II Peter 2:19-22, which WordWolf found for me earlier on this thread. I'll post it in the Doctrinal forum so as not to derail this thread any further. I think it's very cool and totally applicable to this subject. I read it in the NASB version - just for fun.
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Ham
Here's something Lennon wrote about one of these "menogawd" that couldn't keep his zipper up..
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Tzaia
The first time I heard that, I leaned over to my husband and said, "We have a name for that where I come from - schizophrenia."
He heard a voice and saw something that couldn't be there, and people thought that was miraculous?
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Tzaia
I know you didn't ask me, but...
Wow. I missed that one. Judas. hmmm. Was he just some poor sap that got caught up in all the drama, or was he some evil guy? Since being "born again" was technically not available until the day of Pentecost, and he had already been dead several weeks - and replaced, wouldn't it be a stretch to believe he was born again and heaven-bound?
The timeline just doesn't fit.
Did TWI teach that? And why does it matter whether he made it or not?
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geisha779
BowTwi
I know you didn't ask me either--take this for whatever you want, but it is an answer from John MacArthur. He did his seminary thesis on Judas. Really good pastor BTW.
Not wanting to derail-but what a fascinating question. I remember TWI said he was there on Pentecost-right?
Was Judas saved?
Answer
I wrote my thesis in seminary on that subject—on the subject of Judas Iscariot—because I was fascinated by him. Let me show you the several views. There are, incidentally, people who believe Judas was saved. There are many views.
1. The first view is what’s called the patriotic view, recorded in an Apocryphal book entitled, “The Story of Joseph of Arimathea.”
There were a lot of books written after the New Testament that were Apocryphal books, and one of them was this one, “The Story of Joseph of Arimathea.” And in that book, Judas is presented as the brother of Caiaphas, the high priest. He was persuaded by the Jewish leaders to become a member of Jesus’ inner circle. And when he got into Jesus’ inner circle as the brother of Caiaphas, he was a spy. And the reason the people, the leaders of Israel were always giving Jesus a hard time was because there was a guy in the camp who was always telling them what was going on. He was a member of the Sikkarii (sp?), which were the wild revolutionaries who were setting about to destroy Jesus.
Now that view is that Judas, poor soul, was a misguided patriot. The poor guy was working for the high priest. What better place for a guy to be. This guy was devoted to the high priest, and surely God would see him simply as a misguided patriot.
2. There is a second view, and that is what’s called the kingdom view.
This view is the liberal view, the view of liberal theologians today, and they say that the reason Judas betrayed Jesus was because he wanted to force Jesus into a situation where he would have to set up the kingdom. Judas was tired of everyone hassling Jesus. Judas was tired of the Romans ruling the world, the world in which they lived. And Judas just wanted to help Jesus get the kingdom going, so he betrayed him so he could get him in a position to do what he did. And he had a pure, positive, wonderful motive. And then when the kingdom didn’t happen, he went out and killed himself in terrible disappointment.
But that doesn’t make it. The patriotic view doesn’t make it because we have absolutely no evidence, and the second view of the kingdom aspect doesn’t make it because Jesus said, “One of you is a”—what—“is a devil—one of you is a devil.” And Jesus said, “It was better for that man if he’d never been”—what—“born.”
3. No, there was only one reason that Judas betrayed Jesus, and it was simple. It was greed. Greed.
He was an ungodly, ambitious, selfish man. He could have come to Jesus, but he didn’t. He is the greatest story of lost opportunity the world has ever, ever heard.
I forget who it was that wrote, “Man as of old by himself is priced. For thirty pieces Judas sold himself, not Christ.” And that’s right. He was a man totally dominated by greed. There are some who want to imagine that Judas was saved, but there’s no evidence whatsoever. “One of you is a devil,” said Jesus. And when he died, it says he went to his what? "His own place."
No, I don’t believe Judas was saved. He is even called the son of perdition
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oenophile
Is that a judgment for you to make? Could there not have been a cry out to God for forgiveness amid the anguish that led him to take his life?
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geisha779
Hi,
You will have to take that up with Pastor MacArthur Oenophile--his words not mine. But, I am pretty sure he didn't pass judgement on Judas--just said he didn't believe he was saved. That is called an opinion.
Take Care
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