Actions proceed from the heart, yet we all make mistakes. That doesn't mean that is our intention or our heart. And I believe that is where Jesus was able to make the distinction. He knew their hearts.
However, forgiving even those who persecute us, still is important even if their heart is so evil. But I don't see anything wrong with calling things as it is, those with a seared conscience and an evil heart.
If God is our example, the one who ultimately we imitate, as Christ was the image, perfect imitation, of God, I think we have a great example. God's love still allows the adversary to live, still alives evil to exist, still allowed Cain, a murderer to survive. Sure, many were put to death also, but I think God's enduring love to allow them "another" chance can't be forgotten.
Doesn't mean they should go free though.. A price they ought to pay, and sometimes, that's in the ground to what could be calledl hell..
People for the longest time have been excusing or understanding the atrocities of what vpw, and his buddies did in light of ...well everyone sins and falls short...who are we to judge?
For the most part Ive been staying away from those arguments for years because they always seem to descend into circular logic and reasoning that go nowhere except toward frustration for people that are trying to talk sense to the situation.
Certainly people in all walks of life fall short, but most people dont go building religions and religious organizations to hide their acts behind either.
What if Wierwille and Martindale werent phony celebrities but....were clerks at Home Depot ..who were serial predators--what then? would it be the same dont be judgmental attitude?
I wonder if the "who are we to judge ' people have as much of this 'love' for the predator that lives in their very own neighborhood right now.
Do they go rushing in to his defense every time a teenage girl say they have been drugged,raped and abused-after it has happened several times saying --"o well-- everyone falls short"?
Then the excuse is often, "look at the apostle paul.. christian killer, etc, etc.."
but I think the example deserves to be addressed.
Yes, he was plain rabid, going after christian "flesh", and was evil. It took a REAL MIRACLE for him to change.. I think it took a "miracle" to the extent that he COULD NOT REFUSE to change.
I mean.. the lord himself appearing, saying in essence, "you're on the wrong team, fella.." what possible reply could one possibly have? "f you.."?
then he didn't return to iniquity either..
moving up to 1942.. just SUPPOSE for a moment, that the lord appeared to herr vicster, with an AUDIBLE VOICE. and corroborating mystic snow on the gas pumps..
he would have a choice. either "ok, let's go with it.." or "f you."
given that the appearance indeed did occur, every single time he laid a filthy paw on one of our sisters, he would know the reality of the lord being present.. hence, his answer, "f you. I'll do what I damn well please."
On the other hand, if the voice, and snow were a product of his imagination, he was *only* a twisted, evil, false prophet..
Rascal, I think this illustrates the difference between just being a "screw up" and "just plain evil".
One man could be FORCED to abandon iniquity, the other could not.
If you look at the Gospels, Christ loves the sinner but despises the self-righteous. You see, when we become arrogant we are hard to teach, but when we’re humble we take correction easier. That was the problem with the Pharisees, the were so convinced that had it spot on that Christ couldn’t do anything with them. In effect, they were all show, but no heart.
This is why humility is so important. When we remember who is God and where we came from we can be taught. However, if we are so full of ourselves that we think we have it all figured out, kinda like the teenage kid who looks at his/her parents as stupid, we don't learn; therefore, we don’t grow. We in turn, become hard hearted. Self-righteousness is placing oneself before God.
LCM is a good example of this. I don't believe the man started out evil, or ever intended to be evil. Perhaps, he started with good intentions; however I believe that his arrogance got the best of him. He was blinded by pride, which allowed the devil to come in to rob him and countless others.
Let me preface my statement about humility. Humility isn't humiliation, self loathing or a low self-esteem. Humility is remembering the fact that God picked us up out of the puke valley and set us on the mountain top. An example of this is my life. I grew up in The Way until I was 15 years old. When my father found out about the fraud he literally ripped everything I understood to be true about God out and replaced it with nothing. It was God who came into my life and picked me up. Now remember, I was only 15 at the time, I couldn't have done it on my own. This is just one example of God's miraculous power, and I have many more. The thing I keep in mind is this, I wouldn't be who I am or where I'm at if God hadn't brought me here. This reminds me daily why I must stay attuned to God and willing to accept his guidance no matter what position I am placed in. Without him I would most assuredly become like LCM.
Let me bring this full circle. Granted, there are consequences for our actions. LCM experienced some of those consequences; however, there is also mercy. Sometimes we make bad choices. We repent and God grants us forgiveness for our sin, but we still have to answer for what we've done. When we ask the Lord for mercy, we’re asking for release from the consequences. Every now and again we might get a yes, but at other times it’s no. It's funny, but the human beings have a tendency to learn more from their mistakes, failures and consequences than they do from the successes. Consequences also serve to remind us who is God, and God isn’t us.
The bottom line is we can have confidence and a good self-esteem, but we must be careful not to let it become arrogance.
Trust and obey, I could agree with you as far as normal people who screw up, repent, seek and receive forgiveness. What about the people who don`t give a damn who they hurt, and in their arrogance don`t see the need to change or repent?
I agree mstar, I think that wierwille and martindale hid their sins behind their religions and the religious organizations. Whether they started out with this in mind...I don`t know...wierwille it is pretty certain judging from history...I think he might have seduc4ed martindale who seems to have just been a big dumb jock.
Great point about Paul Mr. Ham...about given the chance to change and doing great things, or saying f u.
LOL OCW, UN witnessing. I once had a very vivid dream where I found myself on the wow field again...only THIS time I was just sick to realize that I didn`t believe any of it any more, but I had committed myself to one years and must follow through with my vow. In my dream just when I was the most desperate... God said to me...yohhhh your going to witness for me alright......it`s just that you are going to get people out of twi without being caught...lol undercover wow I guess :)
ihrleben...Can I call you ben for short?? Welcome to greasespot! Thanks for your reply.
So martindale starts out with good intentions, he learns arrogance and pride from wierwille...they both reject the Godly councel and reproof of any who were sent....In their arrogance they not only hurt others, but they taught others to abuse as well.
Would you say that the difference between a screw up and evil...is defined by who seeks repentance?
Why is it that some people are moved with sorrow and compassion when confronted by God like David and Paul who repented and changed? Why did some others engender great anger and vehement denouncment like the pharacees and money changers...or even God help us, the instantanious death of Annanias and Saphira?
There seems to be a difference in the regard, treatment and punishment of a screw up, and the condemnation of one who is just plain evil.
What is it that constitutes evil...a seared conscience that God turns his back on?
Is it the arrogance, the refusal to recognize that we are wrong when confronted that differentiates between screw up and needs to be forgiven, or evil and needs to be condemned?? Is it when we move from practicing evil, to actively harming others that sets us apart? Is it when we lie or cheat or steal as in Annanias and Saphiras case?
Is this a definition of what we encountered in twi?
Would you say that the difference between a screw up and evil...is defined by who seeks repentance?
Well, no. A good person is just as capable of evil as a bad person. Let's take this a step further, and define evil and screw up as the same thing--sin. All sin is evil in God's eyes because it goes against his nature, but it does not stop him from loving us. As a parent, my kids have moments of disobedience, but it doesn't mean I toss them out on the street. However, what we do once we've realized we sinned will determine whether we continue to live in sin (evil).
Why is it that some people are moved with sorrow and compassion when confronted by God like David and Paul? Why did some engende great anger and vehement denouncing like the pharacees and money changers...or even God help us, the instantanious death of Annanias and Saphira?
Some people are willing to admit their mistakes, take responsibility for them, ask for forgiveness, and determine to make a change so as not to make the same mistake again.
Others, like the Pharisees or the money changers, were arrogant and didn't want to be corrected. They weren't taking care of others, but taking care of themselves at the expense of others--selfishness.
There seems to be a difference in the punishment of a screw up, and the condemnation of one who is just plain evil. Is it the arrogance, the refusal to recognise that we are wrong when confronted that differentiates between screw up and needs to be forgiven, or evil and needs to be condemned?? Is it when we move from practicing evil, to actively harming others that sets us apart? Is it when we lie or cheat or steal as in Annanias and Saphiras case?
Again, it is the heart condition of the individual. Will they confess, take responsibility, ask for forgiveness and seek change. Let me make this very clear, God doesn't stop loving his creation no matter how messed up they may be. Believe it or not, God still loves LCM. If he chose to repent for the harm he's caused, and was willing to do what it takes to correct his past, you better believe God would welcome him back with open arms. That's what repentance is, sincere change.
Sometimes, we hurt others unwittingly. It happens. So what we do when we realize it makes the difference. Individuals who recognize the pain they are causing others, and do nothing about it are, shall we say, set aside until such time as they are willing to change. God doesn't work against the human will, and if we choose to live according to a certain lifestyle, despite the obvious road signs were wrong, he's not going to force us to stop. Yet, they will at some point pay a heavy price for their actions (consequences). If God wanted a bunch of willing robots to follow his every command, he would've created us that way. Instead he gave us freedom of choice going all the way back to the garden of Eden.
It all comes down to choices. God created us to worship, and we will (GUARANTEED!) worship something, whether it be ourselves, money, our car or Him.
If you're wondering why bad things sometimes happen to good people, I don't have that answer. I can't explain why a child molester is allowed to sexually abuse a child (the molester is making a choice), and that child has to suffer the consequences of that abuse. What I can tell you is if that child is willing, God can and does heal! What's more, if the molester repents (change), God will help them to change and will welcome them back. But that doesn't mean the molester doesn't receive consequences.
Hope this helps. Oh yeah, you can call me "ben" for short.
Thanks Ben, I guess that I have seen and read of great evil practiced by VPW and those he taught, including LCM. When the harm is deliberate and malicious, perpetrated in God`s name. These guys were confronted with the evil that they were doing, and instead of sorrow and Godly repentance....threw out and maligned those who tried to hold them accountable for their actions.
I wonder if that is what *seared conscience* means...obviously these people were too arrogant in their self rightiousness to think that they needed to change. Apparently God does give up onn people at some point and turns them over to darkness.
I don`t remember Jesus showing great compassion to the pharacees. Were they any doing any differently than lcm and vpw?
Christ loves the sinner but despises the self-righteous
Thanks for that, I would agree completely. His approach as recorded to certain people and circumstance can be understood in that light. Sin in and of itself can't exclude us from the love of God or His purposes, as it's said that while everyone has in fact been a sinner, God so loved the world that He gave, etc. A lot of effort can be done to explain why and how that doesn't mean what it clearly states, but in fact it does state that and the clearest meaning is taken at face value. The "sinner" is lost and requires finding and "saving". When there's resistance it's difficult. But resisting what we don't know or understand is easy to do.The worst kind of resistance seemed to be that of religious findings and faith that take that which is God's and make it one's own - "self-righteous".
Trust and obey, I could agree with you as far as normal people who screw up, repent, seek and receive forgiveness. What about the people who don`t give a damn who they hurt, and in their arrogance don`t see the need to change or repent?
Even them, rascal, even them..
Forgiveness doesn't take away all the penalty or the all consequences of their actions and their evil ways. It's just letting it go, taking the burden off your shoulder, the vengeance and consequence you might dish out, and saying here God, vengeance is yours, you take care of this in your holy and perfect way. If that means God has mercy, in his longsuffering, or whether it's swift punishment, what good does it do us to hold onto the reins? Give it to God, and move on.
Just because Adam sinned, and therefore the consequence of that sin passed upon all men, never meant the consequences disapeared. No, instead God had to send his Son to pay to release us from some of that consequence, and redeem us from our enslavement. (We became slaves to sin and the consequences of that). Forgiveness didn't relieve us. There was still a consequence. But the forgiveness was granted the day Adam repented. It wasn't forgiveness that Christ paid for, because that was available since day one. And the day we repent and receive God's forgiveness doesn't mean we get out of the consequence of our actions. Nor does it mean, your forgiveness of your enemies means they can now go clean and free with no consequence. It just means, you have released your judgement on them and given it to the perfect Judge to rule on.
Doesn't mean we don't warn others, doesn't mean we necessarily forget either. We just give the reins and responsibility of their judgement to God. Doesn't mean we don't try and stop them either.. But we still are asked to forgive them and love them. And love as God loves, not as the world considers love,
I don`t know t&o, I didn`t see Jesus exhorting folks to do that to the pharacees that hurt people in God`s name. He called them vipers, and whited sepulchers filled with death and disease. It seems to me like there was a different standard or criteria for what we were supposed to do.
Wow, hubby and I are sitting here reading the first post and we just love how very astute this question is.
What about the differences and how do we handle them? First VP is dead, and he has his judgement. He cannot repent of his sins.
I want no one to suffer an eternity void of God. VP is judged by God, who is able to lead to repentance whom He wishes.
But, why does it seem Jesus made a distinction? He was so incredibly tender to the woman at the well, who had all the husbands. He revealed Himself to her. I fall
so in love with Him when I see His heart here. But, when He dealt with the Pharisees it seemed an entirely different animal.
What was it the Pharisees did that was so unforgivable? Is there such a thing as an unforgivable sin? Is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, meaning to consciously
reject His incontrovertable testimony to the truth of the Gospel? Paul blasphemed the Son of Man prior to his Damascus road experience, had he rejected that
experience he would have blasphemed the Spirit. Paul was forgiven his actions against Jesus, as his unbelief stemmed from ignorance. However, the Pharisees
witnessed firsthand the miracles He did, knew the truth of His claims and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit because they rejected the fullest possible revelation of God.
Even Nineveh repented!
Doesn't the bible tell us we have all fallen short? What is the difference? Once you know the truth and reject it.
What seperates out VPW? This one is tough. VP taught "another" Jesus, and "another" Gospel. What does Paul say about this? 2Cor11:13-15 For such people
are false Apostles deceitful workers disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ. And no wonder for Satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. so it is no
great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, their destiny will be according to their works.
Paul had no problem proclaiming their judgement. I am less bold and leave that to God, but I have no problem speaking out on the evil done by them in
the God of TWI's name. It is NOT the same God. We rejected all things Christian in TWI. Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The CROSS, --the Church or Body of Christ (true
Christians), the preexistence of Jesus, remember-Jesus a man with a fallen nature yet without sin. Another Jesus.
Where did we learn all that? From a man who came out of the church.
At some point if we still seek God, we have to start learning just how EVIL TWI is and was. That is a must to avoid another jaunt into apostasy. It is also a must
to seek Jesus and for Him to reveal God to us.
We should be screaming from the rafters. I still believe in eternity.
You know? in formulating an answer for another thread, I got to thinking about something.
People for the longest time have been excusing or understanding the atrocities of what vpw, and his buddies did in light of ...well everyone sins and falls short...who are we to judge?
Ummm...not all of us...I've been screeming at the top of my lungs for years now...that VP Wierwille was a scum bag who destroyed the lives of many people...
Who am I to judge?...Aren't we supposed to be able to tell right from wrong?...From what I've seen, we were had. Let's face it, following twi was a total waste of time.
I wanted to address some of the questions posed to me before I head downrange. I'll be gone for a few days, but I'll be back.
Thanks Ben, I guess that I have seen and read of great evil practiced by VPW and those he taught, including LCM. When the harm is deliberate and malicious, perpetrated in God`s name. These guys were confronted with the evil that they were doing, and instead of sorrow and Godly repentance....threw out and maligned those who tried to hold them accountable for their actions.
I wonder if that is what *seared conscience* means...obviously these people were too arrogant in their self rightiousness to think that they needed to change. Apparently God does give up onn people at some point and turns them over to darkness.
I don`t remember Jesus showing great compassion to the pharacees. Were they any doing any differently than lcm and vpw?
God never gives up on his creation, rather, we give up on him. If the Pharisees had repented, or showed a repentant heart Christ would've accepted them. The key here is, they weren't repentant. They were blinded by their own selfish desires and arrogance. There comes a point where we as must shake the dust from our feet and offer it up to the Good Lord; however, that doesn't mean God quit. He loves us no matter what, just like a parent who loves an errant child. Granted, there are consequences for the decisions that child makes, but as a parent God never stops loving.
Ummm...not all of us...I've been screeming at the top of my lungs for years now...that VP Wierwille was a scum bag who destroyed the lives of many people...
Who am I to judge?...Aren't we supposed to be able to tell right from wrong?...From what I've seen, we were had. Let's face it, following twi was a total waste of time.
Granted, Groucho, we are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. What that doesn't mean is judge. Judge not, lest ye be judged.
As Christians we can choose to help those who are in the wrong, pray for them to see the light, educate others against the wrong or even walk away, but that doesn't mean judge. Judgement is best left up to God, because only God knows the true intentions of a person's heart. As human beings we are often limited by what we see, "know them by their fruits," and sometimes what we see can be deceiving. It's like the homeless man who's lying drunk on the street or pandering for money. His fruits clearly aren't good, but we have a choice, do we judge this man as worthless? For all we know he may be a veteran who suffered terrible losses during war, experienced mental illness due to what he saw, and as a result lost everything. In effect this veteran paid the ultimate price for his country. So, is this person really worthless, or are they someone we should show compassion? On the one hand are eyes are saying trash of society, but only God knows the full extent of this individual's condition.
No, judgement as to whom gets to heaven and who doesn't is God's and God's alone. The fruits allow us to determine whether it's right or wrong, but not level judgement.
Do you mind if I talk to you for just a moment--I may be confused by your post a bit--if so I am sorry--so I just want to mention a few things--hope it is okay??
If the Pharisees had repented, or showed a repentant heart Christ would've accepted them. The key here is, they weren't repentant. They were blinded by their own selfish desires and arrogance. There comes a point where we as must shake the dust from our feet and offer it up to the Good Lord; however, that doesn't mean God quit. He loves us no matter what, just like a parent who loves an errant child. Granted, there are consequences for the decisions that child makes, but as a parent God never stops loving.
How did Paul repent? Was he on the road to Damascus to repent? No, it took the presence of the Lord to cause him to repent. God is able to cause all he chooses to--repent. It is nothing within ourselves that can do this--for the bible tells us that our hearts are only evil continuosly. So, how would the Pharisees repent? Nicodemus came to the Lord at night--drawn to His goodness. Who drew him, how did he see?
Granted, Groucho, we are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. What that doesn't mean is judge. Judge not, lest ye be judged.
This does not prohibit all kinds of judging. There is a righteous kind of judgement we should be exercising with discernment. While Jesus forbids harsh judgement that legalism promotes. He demanded the exercise of moral and theological discernment, in order to fufill the commandment to discern dogs and hogs from ones own brethern. The same thing Rascal and Groucho are talking about. They are right on the money. This principle governs how one handles the gospel in the face of those who twist the truth. What we must be aware of is condemning others while overlooking our own sin--which leads to self-righteousness. This is so very important to understand because it can lead one into apostasy--AGAIN!
As Christians we can choose to help those who are in the wrong, pray for them to see the light, educate others against the wrong or even walk away, but that doesn't mean judge. Judgement is best left up to God, because only God knows the true intentions of a person's heart. As human beings we are often limited by what we see, "know them by their fruits," and sometimes what we see can be deceiving.
Whoa wait a minute, we are to know them by their fruits period. Two gates-Two ways-Two destinations-Two Groups of people-Two kinds of trees-two kinds of fruit-two kinds of builders-and two kinds of foundations. Matthew 7--Some judging and discerning better be going on. Judge according to Gods standards not mans. We don't rush to judge--we are aware.
It's like the homeless man who's lying drunk on the street or pandering for money. His fruits clearly aren't good, but we have a choice, do we judge this man as worthless? For all we know he may be a veteran who suffered terrible losses during war, experienced mental illness due to what he saw, and as a result lost everything. In effect this veteran paid the ultimate price for his country. So, is this person really worthless, or are they someone we should show compassion? On the one hand are eyes are saying trash of society, but only God knows the full extent of this individual's condition.
Vp was not someone laying in the street he was out there pushing people through the wrong gate. We feed the homeless man -- we love him--we give him all we have--Vp is another story entirely.
No, judgement as to whom gets to heaven and who doesn't is God's and God's alone. The fruits allow us to determine whether it's right or wrong, but not level judgement.
Again--by their fruits you will know them--if they don't know Jesus as Lord--the right Jesus--we can know their destination and we can seek to pull them from the fire of apostsy by telling them the true gospel. We better know this stuff. And in the mean time we best be judging ourselves as well.
You sound like a loving Christian--it is nice to speak with you!
Groucho, I wasn`t thinking of you when I made my post. I remember you all the way back to way dale. You have never wavered in your denouncement of wierwille and twi...lol It just took a few years for some of us to catch on is all :)
God is able to cause all he chooses to--repent. It is nothing within ourselves that can do this--for the bible tells us that our hearts are only evil continuosly. So, how would the Pharisees repent? Nicodemus came to the Lord at night--drawn to His goodness. Who drew him, how did he see?
Geisha,
I really hate the saying "chapter and verse", but umm, I have to say, I don't think you'll find that anywhere in the scriptures, that "OUR" hearts are only evil continuously.. Now, maybe you are referring to prior to the flood and it mentions that "THEIR" hearts were. Thus the reason for the flood. But umm, our hearts.. No.. I think you are mistaken in that. And if you don't agree, that's fine. I can agree to disagree. I just don't see any evidence scripturally for that.
To also say God is able to cause all he chooses to repent, must also be taken with the fact that God will not force a person against their will. So while he could probably force everyone to, that's another topic. How do you know Paul's heart wasn't in the right? Religiously misguided, killing Christians, sure.. But that's doesn't mean his motive, his intent, his heart was to go against God. Could be just the opposite. In fact, I consider him a man that had a love to do God's will, a Pharisee of the Pharisee, did everything to the T he knew was right, sat at the feet of the greats to learn and to act, only to be led by them vipers to do what he didn't realize was against God and did their evil will. And it took Christ actually appearing to him to make him realize, the ones whom He was persecuting wasn't the ones in the wrong. Sometimes, it takes that. Only God knows. That's why we leave it up to Him to lead, because he knows what each person needs.
Also, just to make the distinction here, the topic of the thread. There is a distinction between those who repent with their mouths and actions, but have no repented from the heart. Many who look and act holy sometimes are the most vile people in the world, and sometimes those whose heart is to help can make mistakes that can cost people their lives. And yes, by their fruit we will know. Not their actions. There is a difference.
The Vicster.. Well, his fruits are now known. The Way, being the fruit of his labor, is a terrible place for many. Unfortunately, most didn't know the actions that caused the fruit until now. And that's a shame. Because I think most of those actions were pretty blatant, but sometimes all we have is his fruit to see, and someone was sure labeling those rotten apples as sweet peaches..
And rascal,
While you don`t see Jesus exhorting folks to forgive and love the pharisees that hurt people in God`s name. He did. He said to love those persecute you. Love your enemies and hate them not. Sure he called them what they were. Vile, whited sepulcres. But he still said to love, because he knew God still loves them. Doesn't like their actions or fruit, but love isn't about being nice and cozy and even going along with evil. God's love which is mixed up as worldly love today is just the opposite. It is seeing the needs of others and giving to meet that need. What does the homeless need? What do you or a friend need? And what does the evil men need? We all have a need, and God's love is to meet that need. Not greed. Not lust. And sometimes the need is for them to be put in prison, hanged, whatever. God's the judge. We are here to be lights. to love and care for. Not to cater to evil, but to love it and help lead it to God who can ultimately help.
Well Ben, I am not so sure about God always loving us. I mean doesn`t he talk about those he has turned over to darkness?
What about those with a seared conscience? Seared means they are burned ...damaged....no?
Isn`t there such a thing as an unforgivable sin?
How many twi people are seared and don`t even know it...our arrogance in our knowledge being the ticket that we think is going to get us into heaven?
Rascal,
I know you were talking to Ben. But, while God may turn people to their own destruction, their own evil and the consqeuences people bring on themselves. He still loves them, and sometimes that love is to stop them. Just as a misbehaving child you sometimes have to take out of the game. Anger and love are not antonyms. Neither are they emotions. Well, unless you want to define it as such, but then we are no longer talking about God's love, we are talking about the world's love, and the world's anger. Greek thinking places thoughts and emotions into words, Hebrew thinking was concrete, things you can see, taste, and touch. See my previous post about love.
Yes, there are those who walk so far away, their hearts turned from God and it doesn't matter what God will do, they will not repent, thus unforgivable. Not by God's choice, but by their own choice. God is always willing, but people are not. Just like our own children. We can love them, care for them, watch over them, but some, they walk away and will have nothing to do with their parents. They get that whif of freedom and doing things their own way, and care not to do those things you say, no matter what. Then those who may walk away, taste of the good life, and then realize, gee, my parents were right. Well, we're always there for them at any step, but for those who hate their parents, and walk further and further away, they soon get to that place where it's about impossible for them to ever change and come back full circle. Yeah, it hurts, but it's possible for kids to do that. Many times, it those kids who even come back to say Hi, but their hearts could care less what you say and do. Their actions look nice, but they really don't love you, they are just 'pleasing you' to get their way..
OK socks, God despises the sin...at what point does the sin cause God to turn someone over to darkness? At what point is the point of seared conscience reached? Is that why Jesus couldn`t stand the pharacees?
It seems like there are going to be people that approach Jesus for entry into the kingdom of heaven, and in spite of knowing who he is, having prophesied in his name, having cast demons out in his name....they are going to be told to *depart for I knew you not* They weren`t given the opportunity to repent then.
It seems like there is a point where Even God in all of his love gives up.
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TrustAndObey
I think it all has to do with the heart..
Actions proceed from the heart, yet we all make mistakes. That doesn't mean that is our intention or our heart. And I believe that is where Jesus was able to make the distinction. He knew their hearts.
However, forgiving even those who persecute us, still is important even if their heart is so evil. But I don't see anything wrong with calling things as it is, those with a seared conscience and an evil heart.
If God is our example, the one who ultimately we imitate, as Christ was the image, perfect imitation, of God, I think we have a great example. God's love still allows the adversary to live, still alives evil to exist, still allowed Cain, a murderer to survive. Sure, many were put to death also, but I think God's enduring love to allow them "another" chance can't be forgotten.
Doesn't mean they should go free though.. A price they ought to pay, and sometimes, that's in the ground to what could be calledl hell..
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mstar1
For the most part Ive been staying away from those arguments for years because they always seem to descend into circular logic and reasoning that go nowhere except toward frustration for people that are trying to talk sense to the situation.
Certainly people in all walks of life fall short, but most people dont go building religions and religious organizations to hide their acts behind either.
What if Wierwille and Martindale werent phony celebrities but....were clerks at Home Depot ..who were serial predators--what then? would it be the same dont be judgmental attitude?
I wonder if the "who are we to judge ' people have as much of this 'love' for the predator that lives in their very own neighborhood right now.
Do they go rushing in to his defense every time a teenage girl say they have been drugged,raped and abused-after it has happened several times saying --"o well-- everyone falls short"?
<_<
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Ham
Then the excuse is often, "look at the apostle paul.. christian killer, etc, etc.."
but I think the example deserves to be addressed.
Yes, he was plain rabid, going after christian "flesh", and was evil. It took a REAL MIRACLE for him to change.. I think it took a "miracle" to the extent that he COULD NOT REFUSE to change.
I mean.. the lord himself appearing, saying in essence, "you're on the wrong team, fella.." what possible reply could one possibly have? "f you.."?
then he didn't return to iniquity either..
moving up to 1942.. just SUPPOSE for a moment, that the lord appeared to herr vicster, with an AUDIBLE VOICE. and corroborating mystic snow on the gas pumps..
he would have a choice. either "ok, let's go with it.." or "f you."
given that the appearance indeed did occur, every single time he laid a filthy paw on one of our sisters, he would know the reality of the lord being present.. hence, his answer, "f you. I'll do what I damn well please."
On the other hand, if the voice, and snow were a product of his imagination, he was *only* a twisted, evil, false prophet..
Rascal, I think this illustrates the difference between just being a "screw up" and "just plain evil".
One man could be FORCED to abandon iniquity, the other could not.
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cheranne
I agree mstrar! It is not so much we are judging as we are trying to WARN other people of those
errors.
I witnessed to people ,ran classes, and was gun ho about the whole thing,now I am doing the
opposite ,trying to warn people "don't do it"
Been there done that. YOu will be sorrry(with a death skull by the side of the forked road)
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ihrleben
Greetings:
Here’s my take on the subject....
If you look at the Gospels, Christ loves the sinner but despises the self-righteous. You see, when we become arrogant we are hard to teach, but when we’re humble we take correction easier. That was the problem with the Pharisees, the were so convinced that had it spot on that Christ couldn’t do anything with them. In effect, they were all show, but no heart.
This is why humility is so important. When we remember who is God and where we came from we can be taught. However, if we are so full of ourselves that we think we have it all figured out, kinda like the teenage kid who looks at his/her parents as stupid, we don't learn; therefore, we don’t grow. We in turn, become hard hearted. Self-righteousness is placing oneself before God.
LCM is a good example of this. I don't believe the man started out evil, or ever intended to be evil. Perhaps, he started with good intentions; however I believe that his arrogance got the best of him. He was blinded by pride, which allowed the devil to come in to rob him and countless others.
Let me preface my statement about humility. Humility isn't humiliation, self loathing or a low self-esteem. Humility is remembering the fact that God picked us up out of the puke valley and set us on the mountain top. An example of this is my life. I grew up in The Way until I was 15 years old. When my father found out about the fraud he literally ripped everything I understood to be true about God out and replaced it with nothing. It was God who came into my life and picked me up. Now remember, I was only 15 at the time, I couldn't have done it on my own. This is just one example of God's miraculous power, and I have many more. The thing I keep in mind is this, I wouldn't be who I am or where I'm at if God hadn't brought me here. This reminds me daily why I must stay attuned to God and willing to accept his guidance no matter what position I am placed in. Without him I would most assuredly become like LCM.
Let me bring this full circle. Granted, there are consequences for our actions. LCM experienced some of those consequences; however, there is also mercy. Sometimes we make bad choices. We repent and God grants us forgiveness for our sin, but we still have to answer for what we've done. When we ask the Lord for mercy, we’re asking for release from the consequences. Every now and again we might get a yes, but at other times it’s no. It's funny, but the human beings have a tendency to learn more from their mistakes, failures and consequences than they do from the successes. Consequences also serve to remind us who is God, and God isn’t us.
The bottom line is we can have confidence and a good self-esteem, but we must be careful not to let it become arrogance.
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rascal
Trust and obey, I could agree with you as far as normal people who screw up, repent, seek and receive forgiveness. What about the people who don`t give a damn who they hurt, and in their arrogance don`t see the need to change or repent?
I agree mstar, I think that wierwille and martindale hid their sins behind their religions and the religious organizations. Whether they started out with this in mind...I don`t know...wierwille it is pretty certain judging from history...I think he might have seduc4ed martindale who seems to have just been a big dumb jock.
Great point about Paul Mr. Ham...about given the chance to change and doing great things, or saying f u.
LOL OCW, UN witnessing. I once had a very vivid dream where I found myself on the wow field again...only THIS time I was just sick to realize that I didn`t believe any of it any more, but I had committed myself to one years and must follow through with my vow. In my dream just when I was the most desperate... God said to me...yohhhh your going to witness for me alright......it`s just that you are going to get people out of twi without being caught...lol undercover wow I guess :)
ihrleben...Can I call you ben for short?? Welcome to greasespot! Thanks for your reply.
So martindale starts out with good intentions, he learns arrogance and pride from wierwille...they both reject the Godly councel and reproof of any who were sent....In their arrogance they not only hurt others, but they taught others to abuse as well.
Would you say that the difference between a screw up and evil...is defined by who seeks repentance?
Why is it that some people are moved with sorrow and compassion when confronted by God like David and Paul who repented and changed? Why did some others engender great anger and vehement denouncment like the pharacees and money changers...or even God help us, the instantanious death of Annanias and Saphira?
There seems to be a difference in the regard, treatment and punishment of a screw up, and the condemnation of one who is just plain evil.
What is it that constitutes evil...a seared conscience that God turns his back on?
Is it the arrogance, the refusal to recognize that we are wrong when confronted that differentiates between screw up and needs to be forgiven, or evil and needs to be condemned?? Is it when we move from practicing evil, to actively harming others that sets us apart? Is it when we lie or cheat or steal as in Annanias and Saphiras case?
Is this a definition of what we encountered in twi?
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ihrleben
Well, no. A good person is just as capable of evil as a bad person. Let's take this a step further, and define evil and screw up as the same thing--sin. All sin is evil in God's eyes because it goes against his nature, but it does not stop him from loving us. As a parent, my kids have moments of disobedience, but it doesn't mean I toss them out on the street. However, what we do once we've realized we sinned will determine whether we continue to live in sin (evil).
Some people are willing to admit their mistakes, take responsibility for them, ask for forgiveness, and determine to make a change so as not to make the same mistake again.
Others, like the Pharisees or the money changers, were arrogant and didn't want to be corrected. They weren't taking care of others, but taking care of themselves at the expense of others--selfishness.
Again, it is the heart condition of the individual. Will they confess, take responsibility, ask for forgiveness and seek change. Let me make this very clear, God doesn't stop loving his creation no matter how messed up they may be. Believe it or not, God still loves LCM. If he chose to repent for the harm he's caused, and was willing to do what it takes to correct his past, you better believe God would welcome him back with open arms. That's what repentance is, sincere change.
Sometimes, we hurt others unwittingly. It happens. So what we do when we realize it makes the difference. Individuals who recognize the pain they are causing others, and do nothing about it are, shall we say, set aside until such time as they are willing to change. God doesn't work against the human will, and if we choose to live according to a certain lifestyle, despite the obvious road signs were wrong, he's not going to force us to stop. Yet, they will at some point pay a heavy price for their actions (consequences). If God wanted a bunch of willing robots to follow his every command, he would've created us that way. Instead he gave us freedom of choice going all the way back to the garden of Eden.
It all comes down to choices. God created us to worship, and we will (GUARANTEED!) worship something, whether it be ourselves, money, our car or Him.
If you're wondering why bad things sometimes happen to good people, I don't have that answer. I can't explain why a child molester is allowed to sexually abuse a child (the molester is making a choice), and that child has to suffer the consequences of that abuse. What I can tell you is if that child is willing, God can and does heal! What's more, if the molester repents (change), God will help them to change and will welcome them back. But that doesn't mean the molester doesn't receive consequences.
Hope this helps. Oh yeah, you can call me "ben" for short.
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rascal
Thanks Ben, I guess that I have seen and read of great evil practiced by VPW and those he taught, including LCM. When the harm is deliberate and malicious, perpetrated in God`s name. These guys were confronted with the evil that they were doing, and instead of sorrow and Godly repentance....threw out and maligned those who tried to hold them accountable for their actions.
I wonder if that is what *seared conscience* means...obviously these people were too arrogant in their self rightiousness to think that they needed to change. Apparently God does give up onn people at some point and turns them over to darkness.
I don`t remember Jesus showing great compassion to the pharacees. Were they any doing any differently than lcm and vpw?
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socks
Thanks for that, I would agree completely. His approach as recorded to certain people and circumstance can be understood in that light. Sin in and of itself can't exclude us from the love of God or His purposes, as it's said that while everyone has in fact been a sinner, God so loved the world that He gave, etc. A lot of effort can be done to explain why and how that doesn't mean what it clearly states, but in fact it does state that and the clearest meaning is taken at face value. The "sinner" is lost and requires finding and "saving". When there's resistance it's difficult. But resisting what we don't know or understand is easy to do.The worst kind of resistance seemed to be that of religious findings and faith that take that which is God's and make it one's own - "self-righteous".
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TrustAndObey
Even them, rascal, even them..
Forgiveness doesn't take away all the penalty or the all consequences of their actions and their evil ways. It's just letting it go, taking the burden off your shoulder, the vengeance and consequence you might dish out, and saying here God, vengeance is yours, you take care of this in your holy and perfect way. If that means God has mercy, in his longsuffering, or whether it's swift punishment, what good does it do us to hold onto the reins? Give it to God, and move on.
Just because Adam sinned, and therefore the consequence of that sin passed upon all men, never meant the consequences disapeared. No, instead God had to send his Son to pay to release us from some of that consequence, and redeem us from our enslavement. (We became slaves to sin and the consequences of that). Forgiveness didn't relieve us. There was still a consequence. But the forgiveness was granted the day Adam repented. It wasn't forgiveness that Christ paid for, because that was available since day one. And the day we repent and receive God's forgiveness doesn't mean we get out of the consequence of our actions. Nor does it mean, your forgiveness of your enemies means they can now go clean and free with no consequence. It just means, you have released your judgement on them and given it to the perfect Judge to rule on.
Doesn't mean we don't warn others, doesn't mean we necessarily forget either. We just give the reins and responsibility of their judgement to God. Doesn't mean we don't try and stop them either.. But we still are asked to forgive them and love them. And love as God loves, not as the world considers love,
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excathedra
.
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Rejoice
I don't think of it as judging, I think it is discernment and then avoiding them as i warn others.
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excathedra
.
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rascal
I don`t know t&o, I didn`t see Jesus exhorting folks to do that to the pharacees that hurt people in God`s name. He called them vipers, and whited sepulchers filled with death and disease. It seems to me like there was a different standard or criteria for what we were supposed to do.
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geisha779
Wow, hubby and I are sitting here reading the first post and we just love how very astute this question is.
What about the differences and how do we handle them? First VP is dead, and he has his judgement. He cannot repent of his sins.
I want no one to suffer an eternity void of God. VP is judged by God, who is able to lead to repentance whom He wishes.
But, why does it seem Jesus made a distinction? He was so incredibly tender to the woman at the well, who had all the husbands. He revealed Himself to her. I fall
so in love with Him when I see His heart here. But, when He dealt with the Pharisees it seemed an entirely different animal.
What was it the Pharisees did that was so unforgivable? Is there such a thing as an unforgivable sin? Is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, meaning to consciously
reject His incontrovertable testimony to the truth of the Gospel? Paul blasphemed the Son of Man prior to his Damascus road experience, had he rejected that
experience he would have blasphemed the Spirit. Paul was forgiven his actions against Jesus, as his unbelief stemmed from ignorance. However, the Pharisees
witnessed firsthand the miracles He did, knew the truth of His claims and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit because they rejected the fullest possible revelation of God.
Even Nineveh repented!
Doesn't the bible tell us we have all fallen short? What is the difference? Once you know the truth and reject it.
What seperates out VPW? This one is tough. VP taught "another" Jesus, and "another" Gospel. What does Paul say about this? 2Cor11:13-15 For such people
are false Apostles deceitful workers disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ. And no wonder for Satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. so it is no
great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, their destiny will be according to their works.
Paul had no problem proclaiming their judgement. I am less bold and leave that to God, but I have no problem speaking out on the evil done by them in
the God of TWI's name. It is NOT the same God. We rejected all things Christian in TWI. Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The CROSS, --the Church or Body of Christ (true
Christians), the preexistence of Jesus, remember-Jesus a man with a fallen nature yet without sin. Another Jesus.
Where did we learn all that? From a man who came out of the church.
At some point if we still seek God, we have to start learning just how EVIL TWI is and was. That is a must to avoid another jaunt into apostasy. It is also a must
to seek Jesus and for Him to reveal God to us.
We should be screaming from the rafters. I still believe in eternity.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ummm...not all of us...I've been screeming at the top of my lungs for years now...that VP Wierwille was a scum bag who destroyed the lives of many people...
Who am I to judge?...Aren't we supposed to be able to tell right from wrong?...From what I've seen, we were had. Let's face it, following twi was a total waste of time.
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ihrleben
I wanted to address some of the questions posed to me before I head downrange. I'll be gone for a few days, but I'll be back.
God never gives up on his creation, rather, we give up on him. If the Pharisees had repented, or showed a repentant heart Christ would've accepted them. The key here is, they weren't repentant. They were blinded by their own selfish desires and arrogance. There comes a point where we as must shake the dust from our feet and offer it up to the Good Lord; however, that doesn't mean God quit. He loves us no matter what, just like a parent who loves an errant child. Granted, there are consequences for the decisions that child makes, but as a parent God never stops loving.Granted, Groucho, we are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. What that doesn't mean is judge. Judge not, lest ye be judged.
As Christians we can choose to help those who are in the wrong, pray for them to see the light, educate others against the wrong or even walk away, but that doesn't mean judge. Judgement is best left up to God, because only God knows the true intentions of a person's heart. As human beings we are often limited by what we see, "know them by their fruits," and sometimes what we see can be deceiving. It's like the homeless man who's lying drunk on the street or pandering for money. His fruits clearly aren't good, but we have a choice, do we judge this man as worthless? For all we know he may be a veteran who suffered terrible losses during war, experienced mental illness due to what he saw, and as a result lost everything. In effect this veteran paid the ultimate price for his country. So, is this person really worthless, or are they someone we should show compassion? On the one hand are eyes are saying trash of society, but only God knows the full extent of this individual's condition.
No, judgement as to whom gets to heaven and who doesn't is God's and God's alone. The fruits allow us to determine whether it's right or wrong, but not level judgement.
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polar bear
Amazing thoughts Rascal.
Yep Der Vicster was a wolf in sheeps clothing. Many people still haven't seen it.
He sure could put on a good show. But inside evil, evil, evil.
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geisha779
Hi Ben,
Do you mind if I talk to you for just a moment--I may be confused by your post a bit--if so I am sorry--so I just want to mention a few things--hope it is okay??
If the Pharisees had repented, or showed a repentant heart Christ would've accepted them. The key here is, they weren't repentant. They were blinded by their own selfish desires and arrogance. There comes a point where we as must shake the dust from our feet and offer it up to the Good Lord; however, that doesn't mean God quit. He loves us no matter what, just like a parent who loves an errant child. Granted, there are consequences for the decisions that child makes, but as a parent God never stops loving.
How did Paul repent? Was he on the road to Damascus to repent? No, it took the presence of the Lord to cause him to repent. God is able to cause all he chooses to--repent. It is nothing within ourselves that can do this--for the bible tells us that our hearts are only evil continuosly. So, how would the Pharisees repent? Nicodemus came to the Lord at night--drawn to His goodness. Who drew him, how did he see?
Granted, Groucho, we are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. What that doesn't mean is judge. Judge not, lest ye be judged.
This does not prohibit all kinds of judging. There is a righteous kind of judgement we should be exercising with discernment. While Jesus forbids harsh judgement that legalism promotes. He demanded the exercise of moral and theological discernment, in order to fufill the commandment to discern dogs and hogs from ones own brethern. The same thing Rascal and Groucho are talking about. They are right on the money. This principle governs how one handles the gospel in the face of those who twist the truth. What we must be aware of is condemning others while overlooking our own sin--which leads to self-righteousness. This is so very important to understand because it can lead one into apostasy--AGAIN!
As Christians we can choose to help those who are in the wrong, pray for them to see the light, educate others against the wrong or even walk away, but that doesn't mean judge. Judgement is best left up to God, because only God knows the true intentions of a person's heart. As human beings we are often limited by what we see, "know them by their fruits," and sometimes what we see can be deceiving.
Whoa wait a minute, we are to know them by their fruits period. Two gates-Two ways-Two destinations-Two Groups of people-Two kinds of trees-two kinds of fruit-two kinds of builders-and two kinds of foundations. Matthew 7--Some judging and discerning better be going on. Judge according to Gods standards not mans. We don't rush to judge--we are aware.
It's like the homeless man who's lying drunk on the street or pandering for money. His fruits clearly aren't good, but we have a choice, do we judge this man as worthless? For all we know he may be a veteran who suffered terrible losses during war, experienced mental illness due to what he saw, and as a result lost everything. In effect this veteran paid the ultimate price for his country. So, is this person really worthless, or are they someone we should show compassion? On the one hand are eyes are saying trash of society, but only God knows the full extent of this individual's condition.
Vp was not someone laying in the street he was out there pushing people through the wrong gate. We feed the homeless man -- we love him--we give him all we have--Vp is another story entirely.
No, judgement as to whom gets to heaven and who doesn't is God's and God's alone. The fruits allow us to determine whether it's right or wrong, but not level judgement.
Again--by their fruits you will know them--if they don't know Jesus as Lord--the right Jesus--we can know their destination and we can seek to pull them from the fire of apostsy by telling them the true gospel. We better know this stuff. And in the mean time we best be judging ourselves as well.
You sound like a loving Christian--it is nice to speak with you!
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rascal
Well Ben, I am not so sure about God always loving us. I mean doesn`t he talk about those he has turned over to darkness?
What about those with a seared conscience? Seared means they are burned ...damaged....no?
Isn`t there such a thing as an unforgivable sin?
How many twi people are seared and don`t even know it...our arrogance in our knowledge being the ticket that we think is going to get us into heaven?
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rascal
Groucho, I wasn`t thinking of you when I made my post. I remember you all the way back to way dale. You have never wavered in your denouncement of wierwille and twi...lol It just took a few years for some of us to catch on is all :)
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TrustAndObey
Geisha,
I really hate the saying "chapter and verse", but umm, I have to say, I don't think you'll find that anywhere in the scriptures, that "OUR" hearts are only evil continuously.. Now, maybe you are referring to prior to the flood and it mentions that "THEIR" hearts were. Thus the reason for the flood. But umm, our hearts.. No.. I think you are mistaken in that. And if you don't agree, that's fine. I can agree to disagree. I just don't see any evidence scripturally for that.
To also say God is able to cause all he chooses to repent, must also be taken with the fact that God will not force a person against their will. So while he could probably force everyone to, that's another topic. How do you know Paul's heart wasn't in the right? Religiously misguided, killing Christians, sure.. But that's doesn't mean his motive, his intent, his heart was to go against God. Could be just the opposite. In fact, I consider him a man that had a love to do God's will, a Pharisee of the Pharisee, did everything to the T he knew was right, sat at the feet of the greats to learn and to act, only to be led by them vipers to do what he didn't realize was against God and did their evil will. And it took Christ actually appearing to him to make him realize, the ones whom He was persecuting wasn't the ones in the wrong. Sometimes, it takes that. Only God knows. That's why we leave it up to Him to lead, because he knows what each person needs.
Also, just to make the distinction here, the topic of the thread. There is a distinction between those who repent with their mouths and actions, but have no repented from the heart. Many who look and act holy sometimes are the most vile people in the world, and sometimes those whose heart is to help can make mistakes that can cost people their lives. And yes, by their fruit we will know. Not their actions. There is a difference.
The Vicster.. Well, his fruits are now known. The Way, being the fruit of his labor, is a terrible place for many. Unfortunately, most didn't know the actions that caused the fruit until now. And that's a shame. Because I think most of those actions were pretty blatant, but sometimes all we have is his fruit to see, and someone was sure labeling those rotten apples as sweet peaches..
And rascal,
While you don`t see Jesus exhorting folks to forgive and love the pharisees that hurt people in God`s name. He did. He said to love those persecute you. Love your enemies and hate them not. Sure he called them what they were. Vile, whited sepulcres. But he still said to love, because he knew God still loves them. Doesn't like their actions or fruit, but love isn't about being nice and cozy and even going along with evil. God's love which is mixed up as worldly love today is just the opposite. It is seeing the needs of others and giving to meet that need. What does the homeless need? What do you or a friend need? And what does the evil men need? We all have a need, and God's love is to meet that need. Not greed. Not lust. And sometimes the need is for them to be put in prison, hanged, whatever. God's the judge. We are here to be lights. to love and care for. Not to cater to evil, but to love it and help lead it to God who can ultimately help.
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TrustAndObey
Rascal,
I know you were talking to Ben. But, while God may turn people to their own destruction, their own evil and the consqeuences people bring on themselves. He still loves them, and sometimes that love is to stop them. Just as a misbehaving child you sometimes have to take out of the game. Anger and love are not antonyms. Neither are they emotions. Well, unless you want to define it as such, but then we are no longer talking about God's love, we are talking about the world's love, and the world's anger. Greek thinking places thoughts and emotions into words, Hebrew thinking was concrete, things you can see, taste, and touch. See my previous post about love.
Yes, there are those who walk so far away, their hearts turned from God and it doesn't matter what God will do, they will not repent, thus unforgivable. Not by God's choice, but by their own choice. God is always willing, but people are not. Just like our own children. We can love them, care for them, watch over them, but some, they walk away and will have nothing to do with their parents. They get that whif of freedom and doing things their own way, and care not to do those things you say, no matter what. Then those who may walk away, taste of the good life, and then realize, gee, my parents were right. Well, we're always there for them at any step, but for those who hate their parents, and walk further and further away, they soon get to that place where it's about impossible for them to ever change and come back full circle. Yeah, it hurts, but it's possible for kids to do that. Many times, it those kids who even come back to say Hi, but their hearts could care less what you say and do. Their actions look nice, but they really don't love you, they are just 'pleasing you' to get their way..
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rascal
OK socks, God despises the sin...at what point does the sin cause God to turn someone over to darkness? At what point is the point of seared conscience reached? Is that why Jesus couldn`t stand the pharacees?
It seems like there are going to be people that approach Jesus for entry into the kingdom of heaven, and in spite of knowing who he is, having prophesied in his name, having cast demons out in his name....they are going to be told to *depart for I knew you not* They weren`t given the opportunity to repent then.
It seems like there is a point where Even God in all of his love gives up.
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