Well, I have been reading the posts and here is something to consider and think about.......
An alcoholic or addict.......in TWI.....It would have been termed as "possession".....Correct me if I am wrong.
In AA they call it a "disease"...........People get sober in AA and it is about the changing of the mind. But, there is nothing biblical per se, reciting scriptures etc, that is a part of that. So did they get freed of the demons? Or did they just put them to sleep? Still there, just not active???? Mind you, I don't know what I am actually talking about, this is asking a question.
I agree that most of us are afraid of the topic...demons and possession. And it is truth that they should be the ones afraid of us not the other way around. I know for me, I can't take any prize in demon identification or the casting out of them. I agree with someone when they said, if you look at the bible and the demon possession, it was like the Man in the tombs etc. I think alot of what was termed possession was actually oppreession.....coming from without not within.
And what I think is a lot of wrong behavior comes from the sin nature inside of a person. The wrong desires, the wrong choices, the lusting of the flesh etc.........At some point, it must cross a line......what do you think????
And I've heard different views.....A christian can be possessed, a christian can't be possessed.
I used to have dreams of flying, and it was always the same. I would be walking down my street, Clearbrook Lane, which was a long hill down to the culdesac where I lived. With massive oaks, towering tulip poplars and sycamore trees on the left and right, I would be skipping down the street , and it would always be on a sunny morning. And as I skipped along, I would get my stride right and then leap into the air and be carried light as a feather about fifteen to twenty feet up and for a distance of thirty or forty feet or so! And then I would touch down lightly, get my stride right and do it again and go even higher and farther each time. And always in the dream, I would say; "I knew I could do this! I just knew it! And I am doing it again!" And it seems so real when I have that dream. I have still had that dream into my adulthood, but it seems to be one that occurs less and less. Use to dream it alot when I was a kid.... :)
Jonny,
I have had a similar dream like that for years. A while back I saw a TV show that offered theories on what dreams meant. They offered a theory on this dream. It's a memory from child hood when an adult would pick you up and throw you up into the air (still holding on). That's why the sensation feels so real yet safe. This made sense to me and I actually remembered running and someone catching me and throwing me up over and over saying "whoops a daisy!"
Flying, yeah but only once or twice. The best one was when I climbed into a box kite and soared above my back yard. For years afterwards, I dreamed of getting one and trying it out for real. Lol, imagine my dissapointment when I finally got my hands on one, and it was only a couple feet tall and flimsy paper :)
The single most re occuring dream that I have is tornadoes and I am trying to get everyone to shelter.
It isn`t a disbelief of Jonny, it was more of discussion of other possible interpretations. Having had simialar experiences, I just wondered if the confidence that he gained as a christian gave him the peace to claim control, rather than paralysed by the fear.
Heck, Whether demons or no, it sounds like God was at work to me.
I used to have dreams of flying, and it was always the same. I would be walking down my street, Clearbrook Lane, which was a long hill down to the culdesac where I lived. With massive oaks, towering tulip poplars and sycamore trees on the left and right, I would be skipping down the street , and it would always be on a sunny morning. And as I skipped along, I would get my stride right and then leap into the air and be carried light as a feather about fifteen to twenty feet up and for a distance of thirty or forty feet or so! And then I would touch down lightly, get my stride right and do it again and go even higher and farther each time. And always in the dream, I would say; "I knew I could do this! I just knew it! And I am doing it again!" And it seems so real when I have that dream. I have still had that dream into my adulthood, but it seems to be one that occurs less and less. Use to dream it alot when I was a kid.... :)
Hi Johnny
You and I have had the same kind of flying dream--touch down and take off again. I remember feeling so good when I woke up!! I also knew that I could do it and had to take running steps. In mine I flew from high platform to platform. Hard to describe if you have never had one.
Now--It is nice that people support your account of possesion. I knew mine would be the less than popular answer. But, I really really want to share something with you from a heart that is overflowing with love for ex-way. I mean that. I think most Ex-way people have an earnest desire for God. In fact, there is much the church can learn from the zealous love of ex-way.
There is also something we can learn from the church. Does that seem reasonable? I know you adhere to much of the teaching you learned in TWI. I get that. It is still so on my heart to at least share something I have learned with you. Take it for what you will. In fact, I will use Dr Juedes words to explain it--He is much more learned than I. If you have a moment please doread it.
This is from an article he wrote for CRI Christian Research Institute Journal. I don't think it is on the website--it may be. If you don't think Vp was a false teacher--this will probably not speak to your heart--but considering never hurts--looking at the characteristics of a false teacher and how they lead the flock astray.
I see a zealousness in you--God is able and I just hope you will consider my words and Dr. Juedes in the manner I offer them--with love.
When we say we cast out demons in His name--we should consider His words when He says--Depart from me I never knew you. Matt:25
One Scripture passage (2 Cor. 11:2-4, 13-15) gives insight into the nature of this controversy, Wierwille's work, and his followers:
For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy, for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully....For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light; therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their deeds.
The Way began to grow significantly only when Wierwille traveled to California and recruited followers from the Jesus movement.[16] Like Eve and the Corinthians, these young believers (and many since the 1960s) were "virgins" with simple devotion to Christ, but were not grounded in Scripture and thus were easily led astray. They did not understand that Wierwille preached "another Jesus" (who was only a man) and "another spirit" (not the Holy Spirit personally indwelling them).
The apostle Paul warned of deceivers when he told the Ephesians, "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:29-30). Wierwille was not the only former minister to draw away young disciples -- David Berg was one of several others. Like Wierwille, Berg drew young people from the Jesus movement to form his own group, the Children of God (now called the Family of Love), which uses sexual promiscuity to win new followers. Like Wierwille, Berg's teachings became the ultimate authority, and when he committed adultery, he reinterpreted the Bible in order to defend his sinful practice.
This present controversy is serving to alert "pure" believers that Wierwille and his successors are false apostles after all. Followers are now tasting the matured fruit of The Way Tree -- fruit of promiscuity, adultery, plagiarism (a form of lying), authoritarianism, false teaching, unfaithfulness, and lack of self-control. The false apostles' disguises are being pulled from their faces, and the "virgins" who were led astray are returning to the one true Jesus, Spirit, and gospel, and the church of Jesus Christ.
This is hard to accept for those who knew V.P. Wierwille as father, friend, and teacher, but both the Scriptures and the empirical evidence demand it.
The current turmoil surrounding The Way presents an excellent opportunity for Christians to befriend ex-Wayers and help them discover biblical truths they have forgotten or never known. Christian can also help (ex-) Wayers through four basic steps of reorientation: 1) expose, 2) emotional reaction, 3) relearning, and 4) reconstruction.
First, it is helpful to present facts of doctrinal, organizational, and personal error in Way leaders. This includes Wierwille's plagiarism, approval of adultery, authoritarianism, errors of scholarship and Bible interpretation, and so forth. If the person refuses to read or hear material which exposes such errors, then take the time to obtain the primary sources which demonstrate them and ask his or her opinion of them. Point out that Wierwille's adultery and lying (plagiarism) mark him a false teacher, not just a teacher with failings (Matt. 7:15).
Second, give ex-Wayers "space" to vent their emotions and hurts, and pray for them and their healing. Show love and patience throughout this trying time of change. It is common for ex-Wayers to take several years to fully separate from The Way and reorient their lives.
Third, help them to relearn. They have rejected some Christian teachings (such as the Trinity[17]) primarily because they have accepted Way caricatures and have not fully understood them. Explain teachings carefully, and give them time alone to read the Bible in a newer version (such as the New International Version or New American Standard) which has clearer wording and lacks Wierwille's marginal notes and deletions marked in their old King James Versions. If possible, use Way terminology and address Way thought patterns, or put them in touch with ex-Wayers who can.
Fourth, help them through the reconstruction of their Christian lives by introducing them to sincere, Bible-believing Christians, small group fellowships, and churches. This is a big hurdle, because V.P. Wierwille was always more effective at turning people away from the church of Jesus Christ than he was at turning people toward the Bible or The Way International.
The one true Jesus He speaks of here is not the same Jesus you were taught to cast out demons by. It is the Jesus of the church. We pulled ourselves out of the body--had our own Jesus--and claimed we were the true household with the real truth. All others were decieved. It was we who were decieved.
That is why I react as I do. It is a frightening thing to use His name and not aknowledge who He truly is. Does that make sense?
Either way--I do care about your story--just so much that I share this with you. I know it isn't the "Nice" thing to do--but I think it is the nicest thing to do--I really believe in eternity. I also believe He is able.
End of this topic for me--and they all breathed a great sigh of relief!!:) :)
Well it was good to read your post Geisha Girl..........I think this whole trinity thing is the thing that had kept me in "suspense"....not being able to get involved with a church etc........I've read and read and STILL can't see that Jesus is God.........I sense you do have a heart of compassion and understanding.....somehow you have come to an understanding that I am still searching for. Thanks for the post!!!
The following is from a section of a book I'm writing, so if it seems sort of canned, maye that's why. It needs to be edited and added to. I'd just like to say 1st that - you know - everyone is welcome to their opinion. Someone said that, in reality, possession is rare. I guess it depends on what is meant by possession. Someone else said that possession doesn't mean that one is always totally out of control. I agree with the latter, but I also think that possession happens much more often than most people think rather than rarely. This, however, is NOT the spotting a devil spirit in everyone who disagrees with you like many saw in TWI - especially in the later days.
How is it that Jesus went all about healing and delivering those possessed of devils - if they are not all about? But if we are not to be afraid of them, but them of us, you know, so what? The 1st time I remember dealing with spirits - other than my own that is - was at a fellowship where the guy running the thing had a couple in tow. It screwed up the fellowship. The 1st 4 people he called on to manifest. Afterwards, the fellow hid himself in his room. Father told me to go in & help him. Long story short, I cast out a spirit of hallucination and a spirit of fear. Nothing dramatic - the experience was no different than simple healing (not all are like that). I wondered afterward if it was even real or my imagination. So I went to the bc, told him what happened, & asked him what he thought.
He said that he had cast out the same 2 spirits the week before. Point is God CONFIRMS his word with signs following - confirms, as in establishing or strengthening with new evidence or facts. Then it becomes more than just an opinion of doctrine. There were people here & there in the early days with whom I would practice descerning of spirits. Why not? We practiced getting good at the other evidences - and every other thing we wanted to be good at. They're prideful birds - willing to show you their stuff & often talk with you. You know, we're NOT supposed to be afraid of them, right. God is more willing to teach us than we are to learn. Nuff said - here is part of the book; sorry it is so long:
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Long Island, NY
March 1972
Behold the Glory of the Lord.
“Look in the mirror and behold the glory of the Lord. This practice will put you in touch with the Christ in you,”
Or so I heard. It didn’t work for me when I tried it. When I looked into the mirror and said behold the glory of the Lord, something malevolent was staring back at me.
Shortly after I completed the PFAL class, I started to suspect that at least some, possibly most, of the spiritual revelations I had experienced were not from the true God but from the Adversary. I told Eddie my suspicions and asked him what do about it. He said that as I continued to grow in the Word any dark spirits would just leave, and, if there were any still around, we would deal with that also.
I was still very hesitant to speak for the Lord. Right about this time, early one morning, I ran into one of my old junkie acquaintances. He offered me some heroin, and, without really thinking about it, I got high with him. Heroin has a way of artificially getting rid of your fears; I spent the rest of the day having a grand old time telling people about the Lord. It was easy, natural, and fun.
Later that evening, after dinner, I retired to my room. I realized that I did not know how the book, the Bible, ended. I didn’t know the end of the story. And I wanted to know, so I opened my bible to the last page and read it. I was amazed.
“And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the lamb. In the midst of it, and on either side of the river, the tree of life, which bear 12 manner of fruits, and yielded or fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall serve him. And they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the sun for the Lord God gives them light, and they shall reign forever and ever.”
It was beautiful, but I wanted now to know what came before this, so I turned to the second to the last page and began to read there.
“And I saw a new heaven and a new Earth for the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away, and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
So exquisitely beautiful it was that I kept reading backwards. I started to nod off, but I fought to stay awake. Then I heard a tinkling sound in the distance, and, as I listened, it became louder and until I recognized it as the sound of chains rattling. I wondered if I was having a flashback. I’d never experienced anything like that before. The sound went on long, loud, and clear enough that it could not be mistaken. It was the sound of chains rattling loudly. It sounded ghostlike and devilish. I became afraid. Then I heard the sound of a witch laughing. It was very close to the sound of the wicked witch of the West in the movie The Wizard of Oz, only much more realistic. Not anyone who has ever heard it will ever forget it. If you have never heard it, be thankful.
“I rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ,” I called out. It laughed at me again. Now I was afraid more than ever. I had used the name of Jesus Christ, and it did not work. Apparently, I had spoken without a heart of believing boldness but of fear. I felt defenseless. I had nothing else. I was at the nonexistent mercy of the devil. Then the devil spirit offered me a deal. I’ll not tell you what it was. But the devil spirit told me that if I did something, some very specific abominable thing, it would leave me alone.
Even though I felt powerless, God used my experience in the Street to help me. I recognized this deal has something that the Party Pals called the Chinese firecracker trick. When we were in fifth grade, we put together some money and tried to buy some firecrackers. This was illegal in New York, so we tried to buy illegally. We gave some money to this kid. He said he was going to go up into this apartment and come back with the firecrackers. We said we wanted to go with him, but he said the person in the apartment would not like that. As you might suspect, he never did come back, and, after that, we always knew that, on the Street, you never give money without having the goods in hand. We were never duped into arguing about lack of trust. It’s just not the way to do business.
I realized that if I did what the devil said, it would NOT leave me alone. I said, “You’re a liar,” more as a statement of recognition than an accusation. The devil immediately left. It was the power in the truth of the Word that saved me.
Rye Presbyrterian Church
Rye, NY
March 1972
The next day was Sunday. Every Sunday we had what we called a limb meeting at which all the believers from Long Island met with all the believers from the Rye Beach area. Junkies who have severe heroin habits, usually have two states, sick and normal. They cop heroin many times just to go from being sick to normal. Only very good dope, or a lot of it, will get them high. Since I hadn’t gotten high for a while, I had what might be called a heroin hangover. I felt pretty sluggish all day long. I thought about not going to the limb meeting, but I knew I needed it. By the time I roused myself enough out of the sluggish state I was in to get on the road to, it looked like I was going to the late to the meeting. But limb leader in Rye was a very charismatic fellow named Steve. He had a hard time getting all us young kids to get to the meeting on time. Write about this time, sort of as a joke, but to make his point, Steve resorted to pulling out a gun and shooting latecomers as they came in the door. Of course, the gun had blanks. We were all young enough not to be offended. But I certainly did not want to come in late.
But I did. As I approached the double doors to the main meeting room, I could hear Steve praying. A really didn’t want to walk in while Steve was praying. But even more so, I did not want to walk in after Steve had finished and take a bullet for being late. I thought maybe I could sneak in unnoticed, so I quietly and slowly opened the doors.
Steve was an amazing person. I remember him saying that we all naturally excel at a certain manifestations of the spirit. Some people found it hard to speak in tongues. We all understood what he was saying because most of us already spoken tongues. Others found it hard to discern spirits. Again, we all understood what Steve was saying. Many people found the idea of interacting with devil spirits fearful. Steve excelled at demonstrating the power that Christians have over evil spirits. I would learn that field just by listening to come talk at meetings. If I exercised a spiritual ear, I could see that he was addressing spirits and commanding them sometimes just by the words he said as he taught or prayed.
As I opened the doors, the first words I heard him praying for, “and I thank you Lord for removing the effects of the drug heroin.” Immediately, my sluggishness left. Busted! Steve, my small fellowship coordinator sitting about two-thirds of the way back on the left side, turned around and looked at me. Twice busted. A remarkable dynamic of the spirit of Jesus Christ can move through a body of believers when a number of them are awake spiritually.
I determined that I wasn’t going to leave that night without being sure that I was 100 percent delivered. After the fellowship onto the back of the church to find Steve. He was there, alone. I started to tell him the story of what happened the night before. When I got to the part about the spirit’s laughter, he stopped me. “I don’t want you to imitate the laughter for me,” he said. “I’ve heard it before – several times.” And he turned and started to walk out of the room. I couldn’t believe he wasn’t going to help me. I stammered, “Uh, Steve, d d don’t you think maybe I could use, that it would be good if maybe you would minister healing to me or something?” As soon as I said those words, I felt completely free; I knew at that exact time that the spirit left me. Steve didn’t answer my question. He turned to me, looked me in the eye, and said, “You just got it.”
I literally left the room skipping and leaping and running and praising God.
I can't seem to edit, so here are paragraphs 2 & 3 from the above post corrected:
How is it that Jesus went all about healing and delivering those possessed of devils - if they are not all about? But if we are not to be afraid of them, but them of us, you know, so what? The 1st time I remember dealing with spirits - other than my own that is - was at a fellowship where the guy running the thing had a couple in tow. It screwed up the fellowship. The 1st 4 people he called on to manifest, COULDN'T. Afterwards, the fellow hid himself in his room. Father told me to go in & help him. Long story short, I cast out a spirit of hallucination and a spirit of fear. Nothing dramatic - the experience was no different than simple healing (not all are like that). I wondered afterward if it was even real or my imagination. So I went to the bc, told him what happened, & asked him what he thought.
He said that he had cast out the same 2 spirits the week before. Point is God CONFIRMS his word with signs following - confirms, as in establishing or strengthening with new evidence or facts. Then it becomes more than just an opinion of doctrine. There were people here & there in the early days with whom I would practice descerning of spirits. Why not? We practiced getting good at the other evidences - and every other thing we wanted to be good at. They're prideful birds - willing to show you their stuff & often talk with you. You know, we're NOT supposed to be afraid of them, right? God is more willing to teach us than we are to learn. Nuff said - here is part of the book; sorry it is so long:
I learned a lot of different things from your post as I read and pondered it...I learned for one thing, that it is more than okay to sift out the bad and to retain the treasures and the truth!
I already knew this in my own way; but it was really nice to have you confirmed it in the loving way that You did!
Oh how I needed to hear Your post!!! Thanks again!!! See you in the sky!!! :)
I hope that You understand my reply; but if You don't it is okay...It's something GOD wanted me to understand for me and I know that if anyone else really understands this, it is
because they were seeking a similar answer themselves!
thanks Tom for your post.........I appreciate it alot!!! You know here's the thing....if a person has devil spirit or is being bothered by one......people should be compassionate and helping.....not critical because there is a problem. And I think that's where it got to in TWI......just being critical of the problem. I do believe that people can be delivered and that this should be happening frequently as needed. We need to know there is a deliverance available....and that we can have it.
thanks Tom for your post.........I appreciate it alot!!! You know here's the thing....if a person has devil spirit or is being bothered by one......people should be compassionate and helping.....not critical because there is a problem. And I think that's where it got to in TWI......just being critical of the problem. I do believe that people can be delivered and that this should be happening frequently as needed. We need to know there is a deliverance available....and that we can have it.
Thanks again for your post Tom!!
Well said Newlife,
What You, Mark Clark, Wordwolf, Jonny Lingo and Tom have said have been the most personally understandable to me from my life and my experience! I appreciate everyone elses posts here throughout; but we all apply what we find the most fitting!
And I think that's where it got to in TWI......just being critical of the problem
.
Absolutely!!! Not only that, but people saw spirits where there was no problem.
And not only that, but I think that - not saying this is discerning of spirits - not saying that it is not, but I'd bet money that - you know, here's Martindale screaming about the latest move of the Adversary throughout the ministry, maybe spirits of bondage, for example. Maybe that wasn't revelation from God because of Martindale's infallable spiritual perception and awareness. Seems more likely to me that his "awareness" of bondage was a personal problem.
Not only that, but his teaching was the overflow of that spirit's [his own personal bondage spirit - a 5-star general] input as the spirit, a ruling spirit, through Martindale's teaching, was opening the doors of entrance for bondage spirits to move in packs through the ministry as loyal TWI/Martindale believers listened to the God-man speak the words of "God." That's how the ministry so quickly torgued toward its demise like a cockroach you might flush down the toilet. At the bottom of the swirling water, there ain't no way that cockroach is getting out.
Everytime (near the end) that Martindale opened his mouth, evil moved exponentially through TWI. End of story.
No, newlife, I'm very appreciative that you started this thread. I knew a lot of this phoney accusation was going on, but I really wasn't aware how ubiqitous it became. That's rather shocking to me. I know I was delivering people, some of whom had been captive spiritually in certain areas of their lives for many years - right up to the end when I got booted out in umm, maybe 1995 (some things are nice to forget so precisely), but I also know there were some believers that the "higher powers" pressured me into - you know, there are spirits active in your life - do this or else. My only comfort there is that I didn't become a major hit man for the Adversary as things went South, & that as I worked things out, the Adversary figured I'd be more of a hindrance than as asset to his purposes & got rid of me - no doubt pegged as possessed (there, I'm on topic :).
Topically burned & more than ever thankful for Sonscreen,
Third, help them to relearn. They have rejected some Christian teachings (such as the Trinity[17]) primarily because they have accepted Way caricatures and have not fully understood them. Explain teachings carefully, and give them time alone to read the Bible in a newer version (such as the New International Version or New American Standard) which has clearer wording and lacks Wierwille's marginal notes and deletions marked in their old King James Versions. If possible, use Way terminology and address Way thought patterns, or put them in touch with ex-Wayers who can.
Many ex-Ways have done this and been more fully convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. This was not a unique Way doctrine; there are, and have been for centuries, other groups which do not accept the Trinity. If it were based only on what VPW taught, I probably woldn't believe it either, as his arguments were rather weak. But having studied what a number of more competent scholars have written, I realize that in spite of VPW's lack of scholarship, he managed to stumble onto at least one thing that was right. And having looked into it extensively I still find no solid Biblical evidence of the Trinity, which historically did not exist until two hundred or more years after Christ.
I can't help but wonder, how much of the argument against the Trinity have you encountered, other than what VPW taught? I don't want to get into a doctrinal debate here. The doctrinal forum is for that, and it would derail the point of this thread. But many (including Dr. Juedes) have assumed that a disbelief in the Trinity is a "Way thing" and have argued only against VPW's weak arguments without taking on the serious considerations of other Biblical Unitarians.
As for casting out demons in the name of a false Jesus, Matthew 12:26-27 comes to mind. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges." I believe God is big enough and compassionate enough to deliver someone who genuinely turned to Him, even if they unwittingly believed false doctrines. Whether or not he believed in the Trinity is not a determining factor in whether his deliverance was genuine.
And not only that, but I think that - not saying this is discerning of spirits - not saying that it is not, but I'd bet money that - you know, here's Martindale screaming about the latest move of the Adversary throughout the ministry, maybe spirits of bondage, for example. Maybe that wasn't revelation from God because of Martindale's infallable spiritual perception and awareness. Seems more likely to me that his "awareness" of bondage was a personal problem.
I remember it was taught that the devil, or demon-influenced people, often accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. I wonder how many instances of "casting out devil spirits" was really that. (Although I believe some instances were genuine.)
I was told the Sprout was possessed and should be kicked out like a mad dog.
Some of the coldest hardest hearts that ever lived flourish in TWI.
WG
Dear Watered Garden,
In my opinion they are no more the most wicked than they were "the best."
Just minor hurtful wicked dogs. At least they are in the "pen" of twi and not roaming loose. I think Osama Bin Laden and others show vp for the craven simpering small-time-wicked thing he was.
And I am sure the judgment of the Lord will be just for the wicked deeds committed. For me, that's a major part of the Hope :)
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Well, I have been reading the posts and here is something to consider and think about.......
An alcoholic or addict.......in TWI.....It would have been termed as "possession".....Correct me if I am wrong.
In AA they call it a "disease"...........People get sober in AA and it is about the changing of the mind. But, there is nothing biblical per se, reciting scriptures etc, that is a part of that. So did they get freed of the demons? Or did they just put them to sleep? Still there, just not active???? Mind you, I don't know what I am actually talking about, this is asking a question.
I agree that most of us are afraid of the topic...demons and possession. And it is truth that they should be the ones afraid of us not the other way around. I know for me, I can't take any prize in demon identification or the casting out of them. I agree with someone when they said, if you look at the bible and the demon possession, it was like the Man in the tombs etc. I think alot of what was termed possession was actually oppreession.....coming from without not within.
And what I think is a lot of wrong behavior comes from the sin nature inside of a person. The wrong desires, the wrong choices, the lusting of the flesh etc.........At some point, it must cross a line......what do you think????
And I've heard different views.....A christian can be possessed, a christian can't be possessed.
Just another 2 cents from me..........
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finallyunderstand
Jonny,
I have had a similar dream like that for years. A while back I saw a TV show that offered theories on what dreams meant. They offered a theory on this dream. It's a memory from child hood when an adult would pick you up and throw you up into the air (still holding on). That's why the sensation feels so real yet safe. This made sense to me and I actually remembered running and someone catching me and throwing me up over and over saying "whoops a daisy!"
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rascal
Flying, yeah but only once or twice. The best one was when I climbed into a box kite and soared above my back yard. For years afterwards, I dreamed of getting one and trying it out for real. Lol, imagine my dissapointment when I finally got my hands on one, and it was only a couple feet tall and flimsy paper :)
The single most re occuring dream that I have is tornadoes and I am trying to get everyone to shelter.
That and losing track of one of the kids :)
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Tom
Jonny Lingo,
For what it's worth, I believe you. Thanks for sharing your deliverence.
Tom
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Belle
Jonny, I believe you, too. :)
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rascal
It isn`t a disbelief of Jonny, it was more of discussion of other possible interpretations. Having had simialar experiences, I just wondered if the confidence that he gained as a christian gave him the peace to claim control, rather than paralysed by the fear.
Heck, Whether demons or no, it sounds like God was at work to me.
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geisha779
Hi Johnny
You and I have had the same kind of flying dream--touch down and take off again. I remember feeling so good when I woke up!! I also knew that I could do it and had to take running steps. In mine I flew from high platform to platform. Hard to describe if you have never had one.
Now--It is nice that people support your account of possesion. I knew mine would be the less than popular answer. But, I really really want to share something with you from a heart that is overflowing with love for ex-way. I mean that. I think most Ex-way people have an earnest desire for God. In fact, there is much the church can learn from the zealous love of ex-way.
There is also something we can learn from the church. Does that seem reasonable? I know you adhere to much of the teaching you learned in TWI. I get that. It is still so on my heart to at least share something I have learned with you. Take it for what you will. In fact, I will use Dr Juedes words to explain it--He is much more learned than I. If you have a moment please doread it.
This is from an article he wrote for CRI Christian Research Institute Journal. I don't think it is on the website--it may be. If you don't think Vp was a false teacher--this will probably not speak to your heart--but considering never hurts--looking at the characteristics of a false teacher and how they lead the flock astray.
I see a zealousness in you--God is able and I just hope you will consider my words and Dr. Juedes in the manner I offer them--with love.
When we say we cast out demons in His name--we should consider His words when He says--Depart from me I never knew you. Matt:25
One Scripture passage (2 Cor. 11:2-4, 13-15) gives insight into the nature of this controversy, Wierwille's work, and his followers:
For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy, for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully....For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light; therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their deeds.
The Way began to grow significantly only when Wierwille traveled to California and recruited followers from the Jesus movement.[16] Like Eve and the Corinthians, these young believers (and many since the 1960s) were "virgins" with simple devotion to Christ, but were not grounded in Scripture and thus were easily led astray. They did not understand that Wierwille preached "another Jesus" (who was only a man) and "another spirit" (not the Holy Spirit personally indwelling them).
The apostle Paul warned of deceivers when he told the Ephesians, "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:29-30). Wierwille was not the only former minister to draw away young disciples -- David Berg was one of several others. Like Wierwille, Berg drew young people from the Jesus movement to form his own group, the Children of God (now called the Family of Love), which uses sexual promiscuity to win new followers. Like Wierwille, Berg's teachings became the ultimate authority, and when he committed adultery, he reinterpreted the Bible in order to defend his sinful practice.
This present controversy is serving to alert "pure" believers that Wierwille and his successors are false apostles after all. Followers are now tasting the matured fruit of The Way Tree -- fruit of promiscuity, adultery, plagiarism (a form of lying), authoritarianism, false teaching, unfaithfulness, and lack of self-control. The false apostles' disguises are being pulled from their faces, and the "virgins" who were led astray are returning to the one true Jesus, Spirit, and gospel, and the church of Jesus Christ.
This is hard to accept for those who knew V.P. Wierwille as father, friend, and teacher, but both the Scriptures and the empirical evidence demand it.
The current turmoil surrounding The Way presents an excellent opportunity for Christians to befriend ex-Wayers and help them discover biblical truths they have forgotten or never known. Christian can also help (ex-) Wayers through four basic steps of reorientation: 1) expose, 2) emotional reaction, 3) relearning, and 4) reconstruction.
First, it is helpful to present facts of doctrinal, organizational, and personal error in Way leaders. This includes Wierwille's plagiarism, approval of adultery, authoritarianism, errors of scholarship and Bible interpretation, and so forth. If the person refuses to read or hear material which exposes such errors, then take the time to obtain the primary sources which demonstrate them and ask his or her opinion of them. Point out that Wierwille's adultery and lying (plagiarism) mark him a false teacher, not just a teacher with failings (Matt. 7:15).
Second, give ex-Wayers "space" to vent their emotions and hurts, and pray for them and their healing. Show love and patience throughout this trying time of change. It is common for ex-Wayers to take several years to fully separate from The Way and reorient their lives.
Third, help them to relearn. They have rejected some Christian teachings (such as the Trinity[17]) primarily because they have accepted Way caricatures and have not fully understood them. Explain teachings carefully, and give them time alone to read the Bible in a newer version (such as the New International Version or New American Standard) which has clearer wording and lacks Wierwille's marginal notes and deletions marked in their old King James Versions. If possible, use Way terminology and address Way thought patterns, or put them in touch with ex-Wayers who can.
Fourth, help them through the reconstruction of their Christian lives by introducing them to sincere, Bible-believing Christians, small group fellowships, and churches. This is a big hurdle, because V.P. Wierwille was always more effective at turning people away from the church of Jesus Christ than he was at turning people toward the Bible or The Way International.
The one true Jesus He speaks of here is not the same Jesus you were taught to cast out demons by. It is the Jesus of the church. We pulled ourselves out of the body--had our own Jesus--and claimed we were the true household with the real truth. All others were decieved. It was we who were decieved.
That is why I react as I do. It is a frightening thing to use His name and not aknowledge who He truly is. Does that make sense?
Either way--I do care about your story--just so much that I share this with you. I know it isn't the "Nice" thing to do--but I think it is the nicest thing to do--I really believe in eternity. I also believe He is able.
End of this topic for me--and they all breathed a great sigh of relief!!:) :)
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newlife
Well it was good to read your post Geisha Girl..........I think this whole trinity thing is the thing that had kept me in "suspense"....not being able to get involved with a church etc........I've read and read and STILL can't see that Jesus is God.........I sense you do have a heart of compassion and understanding.....somehow you have come to an understanding that I am still searching for. Thanks for the post!!!
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Tom
The following is from a section of a book I'm writing, so if it seems sort of canned, maye that's why. It needs to be edited and added to. I'd just like to say 1st that - you know - everyone is welcome to their opinion. Someone said that, in reality, possession is rare. I guess it depends on what is meant by possession. Someone else said that possession doesn't mean that one is always totally out of control. I agree with the latter, but I also think that possession happens much more often than most people think rather than rarely. This, however, is NOT the spotting a devil spirit in everyone who disagrees with you like many saw in TWI - especially in the later days.
How is it that Jesus went all about healing and delivering those possessed of devils - if they are not all about? But if we are not to be afraid of them, but them of us, you know, so what? The 1st time I remember dealing with spirits - other than my own that is - was at a fellowship where the guy running the thing had a couple in tow. It screwed up the fellowship. The 1st 4 people he called on to manifest. Afterwards, the fellow hid himself in his room. Father told me to go in & help him. Long story short, I cast out a spirit of hallucination and a spirit of fear. Nothing dramatic - the experience was no different than simple healing (not all are like that). I wondered afterward if it was even real or my imagination. So I went to the bc, told him what happened, & asked him what he thought.
He said that he had cast out the same 2 spirits the week before. Point is God CONFIRMS his word with signs following - confirms, as in establishing or strengthening with new evidence or facts. Then it becomes more than just an opinion of doctrine. There were people here & there in the early days with whom I would practice descerning of spirits. Why not? We practiced getting good at the other evidences - and every other thing we wanted to be good at. They're prideful birds - willing to show you their stuff & often talk with you. You know, we're NOT supposed to be afraid of them, right. God is more willing to teach us than we are to learn. Nuff said - here is part of the book; sorry it is so long:
Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Long Island, NY
March 1972
Behold the Glory of the Lord.
“Look in the mirror and behold the glory of the Lord. This practice will put you in touch with the Christ in you,”
Or so I heard. It didn’t work for me when I tried it. When I looked into the mirror and said behold the glory of the Lord, something malevolent was staring back at me.
Shortly after I completed the PFAL class, I started to suspect that at least some, possibly most, of the spiritual revelations I had experienced were not from the true God but from the Adversary. I told Eddie my suspicions and asked him what do about it. He said that as I continued to grow in the Word any dark spirits would just leave, and, if there were any still around, we would deal with that also.
I was still very hesitant to speak for the Lord. Right about this time, early one morning, I ran into one of my old junkie acquaintances. He offered me some heroin, and, without really thinking about it, I got high with him. Heroin has a way of artificially getting rid of your fears; I spent the rest of the day having a grand old time telling people about the Lord. It was easy, natural, and fun.
Later that evening, after dinner, I retired to my room. I realized that I did not know how the book, the Bible, ended. I didn’t know the end of the story. And I wanted to know, so I opened my bible to the last page and read it. I was amazed.
“And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the lamb. In the midst of it, and on either side of the river, the tree of life, which bear 12 manner of fruits, and yielded or fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall serve him. And they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the sun for the Lord God gives them light, and they shall reign forever and ever.”
It was beautiful, but I wanted now to know what came before this, so I turned to the second to the last page and began to read there.
“And I saw a new heaven and a new Earth for the first heaven and the first Earth were passed away, and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
So exquisitely beautiful it was that I kept reading backwards. I started to nod off, but I fought to stay awake. Then I heard a tinkling sound in the distance, and, as I listened, it became louder and until I recognized it as the sound of chains rattling. I wondered if I was having a flashback. I’d never experienced anything like that before. The sound went on long, loud, and clear enough that it could not be mistaken. It was the sound of chains rattling loudly. It sounded ghostlike and devilish. I became afraid. Then I heard the sound of a witch laughing. It was very close to the sound of the wicked witch of the West in the movie The Wizard of Oz, only much more realistic. Not anyone who has ever heard it will ever forget it. If you have never heard it, be thankful.
“I rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ,” I called out. It laughed at me again. Now I was afraid more than ever. I had used the name of Jesus Christ, and it did not work. Apparently, I had spoken without a heart of believing boldness but of fear. I felt defenseless. I had nothing else. I was at the nonexistent mercy of the devil. Then the devil spirit offered me a deal. I’ll not tell you what it was. But the devil spirit told me that if I did something, some very specific abominable thing, it would leave me alone.
Even though I felt powerless, God used my experience in the Street to help me. I recognized this deal has something that the Party Pals called the Chinese firecracker trick. When we were in fifth grade, we put together some money and tried to buy some firecrackers. This was illegal in New York, so we tried to buy illegally. We gave some money to this kid. He said he was going to go up into this apartment and come back with the firecrackers. We said we wanted to go with him, but he said the person in the apartment would not like that. As you might suspect, he never did come back, and, after that, we always knew that, on the Street, you never give money without having the goods in hand. We were never duped into arguing about lack of trust. It’s just not the way to do business.
I realized that if I did what the devil said, it would NOT leave me alone. I said, “You’re a liar,” more as a statement of recognition than an accusation. The devil immediately left. It was the power in the truth of the Word that saved me.
Rye Presbyrterian Church
Rye, NY
March 1972
The next day was Sunday. Every Sunday we had what we called a limb meeting at which all the believers from Long Island met with all the believers from the Rye Beach area. Junkies who have severe heroin habits, usually have two states, sick and normal. They cop heroin many times just to go from being sick to normal. Only very good dope, or a lot of it, will get them high. Since I hadn’t gotten high for a while, I had what might be called a heroin hangover. I felt pretty sluggish all day long. I thought about not going to the limb meeting, but I knew I needed it. By the time I roused myself enough out of the sluggish state I was in to get on the road to, it looked like I was going to the late to the meeting. But limb leader in Rye was a very charismatic fellow named Steve. He had a hard time getting all us young kids to get to the meeting on time. Write about this time, sort of as a joke, but to make his point, Steve resorted to pulling out a gun and shooting latecomers as they came in the door. Of course, the gun had blanks. We were all young enough not to be offended. But I certainly did not want to come in late.
But I did. As I approached the double doors to the main meeting room, I could hear Steve praying. A really didn’t want to walk in while Steve was praying. But even more so, I did not want to walk in after Steve had finished and take a bullet for being late. I thought maybe I could sneak in unnoticed, so I quietly and slowly opened the doors.
Steve was an amazing person. I remember him saying that we all naturally excel at a certain manifestations of the spirit. Some people found it hard to speak in tongues. We all understood what he was saying because most of us already spoken tongues. Others found it hard to discern spirits. Again, we all understood what Steve was saying. Many people found the idea of interacting with devil spirits fearful. Steve excelled at demonstrating the power that Christians have over evil spirits. I would learn that field just by listening to come talk at meetings. If I exercised a spiritual ear, I could see that he was addressing spirits and commanding them sometimes just by the words he said as he taught or prayed.
As I opened the doors, the first words I heard him praying for, “and I thank you Lord for removing the effects of the drug heroin.” Immediately, my sluggishness left. Busted! Steve, my small fellowship coordinator sitting about two-thirds of the way back on the left side, turned around and looked at me. Twice busted. A remarkable dynamic of the spirit of Jesus Christ can move through a body of believers when a number of them are awake spiritually.
I determined that I wasn’t going to leave that night without being sure that I was 100 percent delivered. After the fellowship onto the back of the church to find Steve. He was there, alone. I started to tell him the story of what happened the night before. When I got to the part about the spirit’s laughter, he stopped me. “I don’t want you to imitate the laughter for me,” he said. “I’ve heard it before – several times.” And he turned and started to walk out of the room. I couldn’t believe he wasn’t going to help me. I stammered, “Uh, Steve, d d don’t you think maybe I could use, that it would be good if maybe you would minister healing to me or something?” As soon as I said those words, I felt completely free; I knew at that exact time that the spirit left me. Steve didn’t answer my question. He turned to me, looked me in the eye, and said, “You just got it.”
I literally left the room skipping and leaping and running and praising God.
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Tom
I can't seem to edit, so here are paragraphs 2 & 3 from the above post corrected:
How is it that Jesus went all about healing and delivering those possessed of devils - if they are not all about? But if we are not to be afraid of them, but them of us, you know, so what? The 1st time I remember dealing with spirits - other than my own that is - was at a fellowship where the guy running the thing had a couple in tow. It screwed up the fellowship. The 1st 4 people he called on to manifest, COULDN'T. Afterwards, the fellow hid himself in his room. Father told me to go in & help him. Long story short, I cast out a spirit of hallucination and a spirit of fear. Nothing dramatic - the experience was no different than simple healing (not all are like that). I wondered afterward if it was even real or my imagination. So I went to the bc, told him what happened, & asked him what he thought.
He said that he had cast out the same 2 spirits the week before. Point is God CONFIRMS his word with signs following - confirms, as in establishing or strengthening with new evidence or facts. Then it becomes more than just an opinion of doctrine. There were people here & there in the early days with whom I would practice descerning of spirits. Why not? We practiced getting good at the other evidences - and every other thing we wanted to be good at. They're prideful birds - willing to show you their stuff & often talk with you. You know, we're NOT supposed to be afraid of them, right? God is more willing to teach us than we are to learn. Nuff said - here is part of the book; sorry it is so long:
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RainbowsGirl
Tom Thank You!!!
I learned a lot of different things from your post as I read and pondered it...I learned for one thing, that it is more than okay to sift out the bad and to retain the treasures and the truth!
I already knew this in my own way; but it was really nice to have you confirmed it in the loving way that You did!
Oh how I needed to hear Your post!!! Thanks again!!! See you in the sky!!! :)
I hope that You understand my reply; but if You don't it is okay...It's something GOD wanted me to understand for me and I know that if anyone else really understands this, it is
because they were seeking a similar answer themselves!
With Love, RainbowsGirl
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Tom
Thanks for the thank you RainbowsGirl! Isn't it cool?
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newlife
thanks Tom for your post.........I appreciate it alot!!! You know here's the thing....if a person has devil spirit or is being bothered by one......people should be compassionate and helping.....not critical because there is a problem. And I think that's where it got to in TWI......just being critical of the problem. I do believe that people can be delivered and that this should be happening frequently as needed. We need to know there is a deliverance available....and that we can have it.
Thanks again for your post Tom!!
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RainbowsGirl
Well said Newlife,
What You, Mark Clark, Wordwolf, Jonny Lingo and Tom have said have been the most personally understandable to me from my life and my experience! I appreciate everyone elses posts here throughout; but we all apply what we find the most fitting!
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Tom
Absolutely!!! Not only that, but people saw spirits where there was no problem.
And not only that, but I think that - not saying this is discerning of spirits - not saying that it is not, but I'd bet money that - you know, here's Martindale screaming about the latest move of the Adversary throughout the ministry, maybe spirits of bondage, for example. Maybe that wasn't revelation from God because of Martindale's infallable spiritual perception and awareness. Seems more likely to me that his "awareness" of bondage was a personal problem.
Not only that, but his teaching was the overflow of that spirit's [his own personal bondage spirit - a 5-star general] input as the spirit, a ruling spirit, through Martindale's teaching, was opening the doors of entrance for bondage spirits to move in packs through the ministry as loyal TWI/Martindale believers listened to the God-man speak the words of "God." That's how the ministry so quickly torgued toward its demise like a cockroach you might flush down the toilet. At the bottom of the swirling water, there ain't no way that cockroach is getting out.
Everytime (near the end) that Martindale opened his mouth, evil moved exponentially through TWI. End of story.
No, newlife, I'm very appreciative that you started this thread. I knew a lot of this phoney accusation was going on, but I really wasn't aware how ubiqitous it became. That's rather shocking to me. I know I was delivering people, some of whom had been captive spiritually in certain areas of their lives for many years - right up to the end when I got booted out in umm, maybe 1995 (some things are nice to forget so precisely), but I also know there were some believers that the "higher powers" pressured me into - you know, there are spirits active in your life - do this or else. My only comfort there is that I didn't become a major hit man for the Adversary as things went South, & that as I worked things out, the Adversary figured I'd be more of a hindrance than as asset to his purposes & got rid of me - no doubt pegged as possessed (there, I'm on topic :).
Topically burned & more than ever thankful for Sonscreen,
Tom
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Mark Clarke
Many ex-Ways have done this and been more fully convinced that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. This was not a unique Way doctrine; there are, and have been for centuries, other groups which do not accept the Trinity. If it were based only on what VPW taught, I probably woldn't believe it either, as his arguments were rather weak. But having studied what a number of more competent scholars have written, I realize that in spite of VPW's lack of scholarship, he managed to stumble onto at least one thing that was right. And having looked into it extensively I still find no solid Biblical evidence of the Trinity, which historically did not exist until two hundred or more years after Christ.
I can't help but wonder, how much of the argument against the Trinity have you encountered, other than what VPW taught? I don't want to get into a doctrinal debate here. The doctrinal forum is for that, and it would derail the point of this thread. But many (including Dr. Juedes) have assumed that a disbelief in the Trinity is a "Way thing" and have argued only against VPW's weak arguments without taking on the serious considerations of other Biblical Unitarians.
As for casting out demons in the name of a false Jesus, Matthew 12:26-27 comes to mind. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges." I believe God is big enough and compassionate enough to deliver someone who genuinely turned to Him, even if they unwittingly believed false doctrines. Whether or not he believed in the Trinity is not a determining factor in whether his deliverance was genuine.
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Mark Clarke
I remember it was taught that the devil, or demon-influenced people, often accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. I wonder how many instances of "casting out devil spirits" was really that. (Although I believe some instances were genuine.)
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Mark Clarke
"The trouble with being on a quest for demonic evil is that it's hard to pinpoint it through the background noise of human meanness and conniving."
--from Pibgorn, an online comic by Brooke McEldowney
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RainbowsGirl
Mark,
Excellant quote!
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Kit Sober
In my opinion they are no more the most wicked than they were "the best."
Just minor hurtful wicked dogs. At least they are in the "pen" of twi and not roaming loose. I think Osama Bin Laden and others show vp for the craven simpering small-time-wicked thing he was.
And I am sure the judgment of the Lord will be just for the wicked deeds committed. For me, that's a major part of the Hope :)
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