Woulda - Coulda - Shoulda

[skyrider]

Why is it?...............at times, when a poster attempts to expose wierwille's "ministry" by delving into blatant disregard for scripture, or detailing vpw's lusts & drunken carnality, or a victim posts her incident of rape......that some "self-righteous soul" comes forward TO POINT OUT WHAT YOU WOULDA - COULDA - SHOULDA DONE.

Why is it?...............at times, when a poster is sharing his WOW or Corps experience that some "all-knowing individual" (who never went WOW or Corps) wants to point the finger right back at you....telling you what HE would have done in that situation!

Why is it?...............at times, that a poster wants to "bust the chops" of an ordained clergyman who STOOD TOE-TO-TOE CONFRONTING WIERWILLE OF HIS EVIL DOINGS.......insinuating that it wasn't enough.....and, had he "done better" there wouldn't have been this long line of twi victims.

Man.........wierwille was nearly 40 years older than me.....and had surrounded himself with an entourage of "yes-men," a couple of trained "bodyguards," an allure of "mog-ness," an isolated motorcoach world, a stage persona for glassy-eyed cult followers, access to finances & lawyers to cover his tracks, a teaching platform that thundered down on those who left twi "possessed," an "army of corps men and women" who followed his orders and reported back, an organized system of paranoia where "us versus them" included one's family, government, illuminati, seed men, and the devil himself........and the list goes on and on.

Or............martindale who was hand-picked by the mog-wierwille, and publically-displayed the mantle placed on his shoulders at the 40th Anniversary Celebration and the Elijah/Elisha references, the adulation that wierwille heaped upon him for years, the Corps Chalet that wierwille passed onto Craig and Donna as the "new president's home," the new motorcoach and image that was fashioned after the wierwille pyramid........etc. etc.

Or............cgeer who stepped into the void, claiming to have "the last will and testament of THE MOG" and given main stage to present his pop-paper, the same allure and isolation that wierwille fostered thru the years, attempting to speak and write posthumously "for wierwille," speaking in cryptic sentences and broad strokes to raise questions and mystique, and cleverly dividing the twi power base while gaining access to pfal copyrights........and so forth.

And, to this day........some postulate "why didn't YOU confront wierwille?".......or, "why did YOU stay after 1987" (even though MANY went into the John Lynn camp where Momentus and Nose Spiders were prevalent.....and the same downward spiral happened AGAIN)........or, "why did YOU allow that stinky, pudgy 60 year old wierwille to have sex with you".......or, "being in the corps surely YOU were on the inside track of this adultery stuff."

Sure, I saw things in twi as early as 1977 that "perplexed me about twi's christianity".......but being in my early 20s, I wasn't ready to confront or leave twi. Like so many have stated......I saw things, but NEVER thought that it was a TOP-DOWN EMPIRE OF EVIL.

Sure, had I known then what I know now.........I woulda done things differently.

Sure, had I known then what I know now.........I couda helped so many others, maybe.

Sure, had I known then what I know now.........I shoulda openly confronted wierwille for all to see...??

Or, maybe I did THE RIGHT THING by staying as long as I did.......getting my whole family out of twi intact.......posting my twi experiences of 1974-1998 for many others to see on Waydale / GS.......and helping scores of others LEAVE TWI by utilizing a systematic approach of logic and critical thinking whereby they too are able to unravel their own experiences in this cult of personality.

And, rather than getting thrown out on my ear .....like say, 1982 or whatever......maybe, just maybe I did THE RIGHT THING and all this "woulda, shoulda, coulda" questioning can go take a flying bite.

Edited July 27, 2008 by skyrider

[Dot Matrix]

And the choir said amen

[HAPe4me]

thank you Skyrider. I think you did well, then and now.

~HAP

[rhino]

Since Greaseyspot is also for those still in cults ... and for learning for those that were in ... why is it that any opinion or view of what might have been done ....is so offensive to some sensitive celebrities ... that a tirade of flaming and personal assault is leveled against that person, for not slobbering over the actions and efforts that were put forth?

Then whole threads and false claims are made in defense ... all because of a reevaluation of the events that might prove profitable to someone else.

What is wrong with learning from mistakes? Some seem way too defensive ... from the outside 20 years later, I think part of the psycho terror drama was sill being played out by those in some of the helping roles ... which kept a functioning body of people on life support, but still in the belly of the beast.

There was still major cult thinking going on ... even as victims were being ministered to at different levels. VP died with his cult mostly intact. Stories of heroism prior to that seem exaggerated and make me gag a little, as people fawn over their ex cult leaders ...

In hind sight ... is there nothing to learn?

And since some of this is obviously a personal attack on me, would you quote where I blamed Don for not doing more, or claimed that I would have?

Hope that helps clarify ...

[Ductape]

I spent 22 years in TWI, mainly stayed way out away from the fray. I started out the worst of the worst apologist for all things PFAL when I showed up at WayDale. I easily tossed the LCM doctrines after leaving. I was an ugly interrogator with the worst of them when someone would share their personal stories that went against my mental image of the MOG and I was also in huge denial of my own worship of "our father in da-verd".

Having left TWI 9 years ago without knowledge of lawsuits, but over my personal inability to live at the "level" LCM demanded; there are always some hard lessons to learn. Learning LCM wasn't the first pervert of the highest seat in TWI did not come easy. There are still unanswered questions and often belligerent discourse is the only thing that works to bring this stubborn old gray matter around. The brain shuts down when ever someone comes across like they are lecturing a child, or they sit in some great seat of authority. If they allude to those that stayed as lesser; no thoughts from them can break through.

From the land far away from headquarters the reputation of the leaders-away were tarnished because by the time it hit my area the power grabbers had grabbed the lists of whom they wanted to be in their new club. By the time I was invited it was by a guy who claimed 10 years faithful; 8 of those years no one saw him for dirt. I was suppose to trust a guy that lied about his time and even worse published a news letter about the great healing in his marriage as his wife had confessed her affair and they grew from this. CES was waiting for me, sort of after the fact.

Then there was also the guy threatening his wife with a knife, same wife that contacted top leaders at headquarters about my horrible leadership and her and her hubby should be the leaders. This was after the knife deal and then the word came down I was to be replaced. I called headquarters and the word got to of all the old perv himself and he put a stop to my removal. Now, the same guy that made this decision and turned loose the wrath of the LC on me on the word of a women he knew years before was suppose to be believable; yeah right.

We all came from different places and all "our" TWIs are different; why should we be expected to all be at the same place now? There is a constant drum beat of the required "group-think" here at the café'; this place can become as cultish as the cult ever was; complete with privileged posters and peons……

[skyrider]

I spent 22 years in TWI, mainly stayed way out away from the fray. I started out the worst of the worst apologist for all things PFAL when I showed up at WayDale. I easily tossed the LCM doctrines after leaving. I was an ugly interrogator with the worst of them when someone would share their personal stories that went against my mental image of the MOG and I was also in huge denial of my own worship of "our father in da-verd".

Having left TWI 9 years ago without knowledge of lawsuits, but over my personal inability to live at the "level" LCM demanded; there are always some hard lessons to learn. Learning LCM wasn't the first pervert of the highest seat in TWI did not come easy. There are still unanswered questions and often belligerent discourse is the only thing that works to bring this stubborn old gray matter around. The brain shuts down when ever someone comes across like they are lecturing a child, or they sit in some great seat of authority. If they allude to those that stayed as lesser; no thoughts from them can break through.

From the land far away from headquarters the reputation of the leaders-away were tarnished because by the time it hit my area the power grabbers had grabbed the lists of whom they wanted to be in their new club. By the time I was invited it was by a guy who claimed 10 years faithful; 8 of those years no one saw him for dirt. I was suppose to trust a guy that lied about his time and even worse published a news letter about the great healing in his marriage as his wife had confessed her affair and they grew from this. CES was waiting for me, sort of after the fact.

Then there was also the guy threatening his wife with a knife, same wife that contacted top leaders at headquarters about my horrible leadership and her and her hubby should be the leaders. This was after the knife deal and then the word came down I was to be replaced. I called headquarters and the word got to of all the old perv himself and he put a stop to my removal. Now, the same guy that made this decision and turned loose the wrath of the LC on me on the word of a women he knew years before was suppose to be believable; yeah right.

We all came from different places and all "our" TWIs are different; why should we be expected to all be at the same place now? There is a constant drum beat of the required "group-think" here at the café'; this place can become as cultish as the cult ever was; complete with privileged posters and peons……

Yes, I would agree that "we all came from different places and all our twi's were different." Plus.....different backgrounds, different emotional levels, different family situations, different EVERYTHING......really.

But, no........I do not think that "this place can become as cultish as the cult ever was; complete with privileged posters and peons..." The twi that I left.......was ruthlessly micro-managed from the top-down by the mid-to-late 90s. Time schedule sheets were to be filled out in 15-minute increments and faithfully faxed to branch/limb/region/trunk personnel. All traveling had to have twi leadership approval.....traveling to another state involved at least a 7-day notice to that limb coordinator. For full-time corps: no pregnancies without stated permission, no pets, no karate lessons for your kids, etc......full disclosure of finances. No home ownership.

Etc. etc..............

Today, it's supposedly "kinder and gentler."

NO..............GS is not ANYTHING like the cult I left.

Edited July 27, 2008 by skyrider

[Shellon]

..... all this "woulda, shoulda, coulda" questioning can go take a flying bite.

I'm with ya

[doojable]

There have been threads questioning why we did what we did?, how come we stayed so long?, why did we not see what we should have seen?...

It's one thing to look back and ask some honest questions. It's quite another when the questions sound accusatory. You can say you're not accusing all day long - but still sound like you're picking meat off of bones.

I still say that there are times when this form of communication is inefficient. What I hear in my head when I write, "Why didn't you do such and such..?" may sound like a sincere question to me but a finger-pointing-in-your-face confrontation to someone else.

IMO that's when the dialog has to go to "solution mode" and "sarcasm mode."

[excathedra]

Why is it?...............at times, that a poster wants to "bust the chops" of an ordained clergyman who STOOD TOE-TO-TOE CONFRONTING WIERWILLE OF HIS EVIL DOINGS.......insinuating that it wasn't enough.....and, had he "done better" there wouldn't have been this long line of twi victims.

sky, i love you and respect you for the person you are.

I just don't understand the part about an "ordained clergyman." Ordained clergyman?? Ordained by the vic man makes absolutely no sense to me. I guess I just can't put much stock in that. Forgive me, it's not meant to be an insult.

(Sidenote: Since there are all these discussions going on, I'm almost afraid to post because I see I am not getting my point across and I do feel misunderstood, and I KNOW I'm not the only one. Just decided to say that on your thread, sorry.)

--

and I'm extremely grateful and thankful (without a way to even express it) for Don39 and you and anyone else who stood up for damaged people. and that's from my heart.

--

and continue to stand up

[HAPe4me]

you expressed it very well Excat, if THAT is misunderstood by anyone, woe unto them.

[doojable]

It seems to me that almost anyone that admits they were twi clergy (ordained by madmen) might as well pin a "Kick Me!' sign on their avatar.

With few exceptions, I don't see lots of arrogance here when it comes to admitting one was once considered clergy. In fact - notice I said, "ADMIT" and not "boast." It's almost like fessing up.

It's not so much that the ordination means a damn thing anymore. We don't stand when anyone enters a thread and we don't put water and mints on their keyboard so they can enlighten us with their special wisdom.

I actually think that more of those that think they deserve special privileges as *clergy* lurk than post.

[waysider]

We don't stand when anyone enters a thread and we don't put water and mints on their keyboard so they can enlighten us with their special wisdom.

Oh, swell.

NOW you tell me!

[excathedra]

i don't see arrogance in that way. that wasn't my point.

see what i mean? lol

i've lost the art of communicating. lol

i'll go read competent to communicate ;)

[rhino]

It's one thing to look back and ask some honest questions. It's quite another when the questions sound accusatory. You can say you're not accusing all day long - but still sound like you're picking meat off of bones.

That may be ... but here is this story ... and I get to ask some questions about what in the world was going on ... I think my questions have clarified some things that seemed ambiguous or unclear or defensive or wrong.

What I feel worst about from those days are people I either sent or knew well and did not stop from going into the corpse ... I don't think asking some direct questions hurts anything ... except a lot of people explode ... meaning this still is not a settled issue for many folks.

No matter how accusative I might sound ... well adjusted people would not be so rankled ... the trashing of anyone asking the wrong questions or coming up with different conclusions ... is quite ummm ... remarkable.

Also I said I didn't BLAME Don ... not that I didn't disagree with any of the actions he took. But no one can separate those things .... apparently only praise and worship and agreement is acceptable here ... at least with many that attacked me .... at least on certain subjects or with certain people.

[Ductape]

Yes, I would agree that "we all came from different places and all our twi's were different." Plus.....different backgrounds, different emotional levels, different family situations, different EVERYTHING......really.

But, no........I do not think that "this place can become as cultish as the cult ever was; complete with privileged posters and peons..." The twi that I left.......was ruthlessly micro-managed from the top-down by the mid-to-late 90s. Time schedule sheets were to be filled out in 15-minute increments and faithfully faxed to branch/limb/region/trunk personnel. All traveling had to have twi leadership approval.....traveling to another state involved at least a 7-day notice to that limb coordinator. For full-time corps: no pregnancies without stated permission, no pets, no karate lessons for your kids, etc......full disclosure of finances. No home ownership.

Etc. etc..............

Today, it's supposedly "kinder and gentler."

NO..............GS is not ANYTHING like the cult I left.

I meant more figuratively than literally. Like the way we had to take Loy Boy's new classes if we wanted to stick around; no old wineskins! The prevailing present truth and don't forget if we wanted to participate we had to write letters of praise every time a leader farted our direction.

That was more what I was thinking, one mindedness of praising the privileged posters only allowed and then the ones needing to hear the other side of the story booted because they don't agree.

Hello, my name is Ductape and I was a Wierwille apologists. Now its name calling for some one else to call me that………….

[skyrider]

sky, i love you and respect you for the person you are.

I just don't understand the part about an "ordained clergyman." Ordained clergyman?? Ordained by the vic man makes absolutely no sense to me. I guess I just can't put much stock in that. Forgive me, it's not meant to be an insult.

(Sidenote: Since there are all these discussions going on, I'm almost afraid to post because I see I am not getting my point across and I do feel misunderstood, and I KNOW I'm not the only one. Just decided to say that on your thread, sorry.)

--

and I'm extremely grateful and thankful (without a way to even express it) for Don39 and you and anyone else who stood up for damaged people. and that's from my heart.

--

and continue to stand up

exie........I love and respect you too.

Unraveling one's twi experience and various commitments is a daunting task, for sure. To express my pov in its simplest terms, I believe that God looks on the heart.........it's not a corps nametag, a clergy status, or having the uppermost seats in the marketplace.......it's from A PERSPECTIVE OF SERVICE.

For some here..........perhaps, the corps should wear a "target of ridicule" for going into the corps program. Didn't we realize that it was wierwille's indoctrinational process for nazi corps?????? Perhaps, all who accepted twi ordination should hang their heads in shame for aspiring to the level of I Timothy 3 and all that????

I dunno............it's all a matter of one's perspective, isn't it?

IMO.......it's NOT a pecking order here, but rather a clarification of one's position within twi. If we are going to expose twi's underbelly to help ex-twiers and/or current twiers........it seems logical to speak in terms of their understanding. Besides.........in cult mentality, only the TOP LEADER wields the power to sway "present truth" and dictate the dogma for the followers. It's obvious that even in wierwille's day......harry and ermal were mere figureheads in those trustee meetings.

I, for one, am so thankful for DontWorry coming here to GS.......sharing insight and perspective.

Seems that some 380 or so former twi clergy have stayed SILENT ALL THESE YEARS........of course, many have their own little splinter groups where fawning followers come "to worship" and stay in a mode of offshoot conformity. And others?.......choosing to "cut all ties" and make fast tracks into business/career adventures.......having no desire to take any time to "build a bridge for others to cross over the chasm of cultdom to wholesome living."

Is it any wonder why the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" insignia lingers for some????????

[rhino]

That was more what I was thinking, one mindedness of praising the privileged posters only allowed and then the ones needing to hear the other side of the story booted because they don't agree.

... I agree ...

of course we are posting our current 20/20 thoughts ... are we supposed to teleport back to a 20 year old mental state ... and only communicate in terms of reverence for the ordained ... I do perceive that a little at times in some...

I think for myself in terms of what I know today ... and those are the thoughts I post. Hindsight is probably not 20/20, or we'd all agree ... some things get blurred and denied ... especially from psycho trauma cult world.

I see flaming and juvenille posts that indicate to me ... some are stuck ... at least when they enter this little GSC retro world. Others with all the yeah yeah .. amen ... to the post that tells people to take their current opinions and "take a flying bite" ...

Well take your own flying bite ... and bite the high horse you rode in on too ... is that really the way it is? The royal WE ... ordained by TWI clergy ... don't want to hear what shoulda/mighta been done? ...

"We were kings .... how dare any of the little people come and question ANY of our actions ... (in our wonderful cult with all the rapes and lies and abuse)" ...

holy cow ... there is that sense ... as the deleted (to save the guilty) and the last couple threads partially demonstrate.

Outside opinion or disagreement from people with different current 2008 perspective ... posting as adults here ... the position of skyrider is "take a flying bite"

and we got a lot of "Amen ... hallelujah" .... on that ... from the choir ... in the church ... of Greasespot Cafe ...

YIKES ...

(yes, I'm glad to hear all the details of what happened ... but I have no sense of obligation to agree withANY of what went on, not idolize any for their former position in the destructive cult ... just the facts ma'am)

[doojable]

That may be ... but here is this story ... and I get to ask some questions about what in the world was going on ... I think my questions have clarified some things that seemed ambiguous or unclear or defensive or wrong.

What I feel worst about from those days are people I either sent or knew well and did not stop from going into the corpse ... I don't think asking some direct questions hurts anything ... except a lot of people explode ... meaning this still is not a settled issue for many folks.

No matter how accusative I might sound ... well adjusted people would not be so rankled ... the trashing of anyone asking the wrong questions or coming up with different conclusions ... is quite ummm ... remarkable.

Also I said I didn't BLAME Don ... not that I didn't disagree with any of the actions he took. But no one can separate those things .... apparently only praise and worship and agreement is acceptable here ... at least with many that attacked me .... at least on certain subjects or with certain people.

You know rhino, I keep getting this memory of the old show "Hogan's Heros." You know, that show where POW's in a German camp help the Allies by thwarting the enemy and using their tunnels to get supplies and information. Yea - it's a comedy - but some of the analogy works in my weirdo mind. Here's why:

I just looked at the timeline and Don started to see a how pervasive the problem was by 1982

....then, beginning in 1983, there were situations that arose during the professional counselng these two doctors were providing for certain corps grads and spouses of twi "leaders" whom myself and others had referred to them, which began to "break open" the revered "lockbox" so meticulously and secretively developed and maintained by vic, king okie, and the other members of twi's BOT, as well as various "leaders" in sensitive, upper level twi "management" positions!..........this presented those men, and myself with a huge ethical dilemma!........what to do with the confidential doctor/patient "information" that was now beginning to come out of these previously secure "lockboxes"? ........each of us had legal and professional responsibilities to maintain and protect the absolute "right to privacy" and confidentiality of the patients/clients who were receiving professional services from us!.......yet, as corps grads, and "clergy", we each felt a distinct, moral and "spiritual" obligation to confront those who were responsible for the severe psychoemotional and "spiritual" trauma inflicted on this now growing number of victims of physical and sexual abuse!

The PoOP hit the fan in 1986. So for 4 years people were helped by SL, before twi's house of cards started to tumble down. People who normally wouldn't have sought counsel from a psychiatrist were it not twi sanctioned were helped. IMHO these people were the priority at that time. They needed to be "tunneled to safety." Had Don opened up the can of worms too early, he definitely would have been in a difficult position to help any of these abused people. Had he been booted out, he would have been declared possessed and the abused would have been stranded behind enemy lines.

I don't know, but I assume from the tone of his posts that Don hoped against hope that it was possible to salvage the ministry. He had to pick his battles - as well all do at times - he chose to do what he could to help the hurting.

Did you see any sexual misconduct? If so, did you confront it?

I saw some - but I thought it was an isolated incident of one jerk trying to come after me. I confronted the person but I didn't sound an alarm. To this day, I wish I had done more. It would have saved a lot of people from some very bad stuff.

[Ductape]

Yeah Rhino I get where you are coming from. Its like on that other thread the question keeps annoying me about laws requiring authorities be notified when children are at risk and it was also posted teens and a granddaughter were molested. So, aren’t teens kids to? But, because of the warm understanding treatment you got; how dare anyone ask questions?

Skyrider I have no “beef” with you and always enjoy your insight and posts. Heck I really don’t care about the corpes only site; but I do object to posts here about what a wonderful place that is, or a check this out and a link posted where many can’t get there from here because they never went corpes. I can also respect those that stayed and were near the top and wanted to “fix” the ministry. We thought we had something and some even got Loy’s oath he would stop sticking it where it didn’t belong.

The mind set of no one touches da-verd or the MOG is still very fresh in my memory. I would think a former inner circler would allow others the grace they demand (not that you were one of them)

[excathedra]

duct, i liked that about grace

i will read the rest later

sorry, gotta go

[rhino]

Did you see any sexual misconduct? If so, did you confront it?

I saw some - but I thought it was an isolated incident of one jerk trying to come after me. I confronted the person but I didn't sound an alarm. To this day, I wish I had done more. It would have saved a lot of people from some very bad stuff.

First I never pretended I was more capable then, than anyone else. But I can have a view now ... and discuss it ...

I had no direct knowledge of any real sexcapades .. I privately told you one minor incident, if that is what you are hinting at. It was a grab .. not sex. Someone else that was a problem ... was really being used by men in your fair city ... I think ... don't think I really knew that then.

But now we can look back and try to unravel some things. ... so why not?

So four years ... I don't know the doctors, nor do I know Don's position ... if he was working "behind enemy lines" ... he still should have been shipping victims to freedom ...as I see it.

But what I really believe ... since I have no reason to pat Don on the head, and tell him what a good boy he was ... (and I'm sure he doesn't need that) is that it all took place under the umbrella of Vic's control. It was still in the cult box thinking ... and the rest is rationalization. ...understandable ... but still not the 20/20 hindsight best course of action.

It looks to me like there was an inability to break from the cult, not so much a willful decision ... so the good hearted helping/counseling came under that "vic umbrella" ... under the vic influence.

As for going toe to toe ... it started that way ... but vic won in a knockout in 31 seconds (I forget that fight, Liston versus the ear biter?)

Money and people were being sent to this evil place ... but inside HQ ... it was a different world ... it was their whole world ... it was where the whole move of Gawd's Word ... that mankind depended on .. was emanating from ... what a mind pluck ...

I think VP and gang would have folded like a cheap suit when confronted with law enforcement and a few witnesses ... but the charade was enough to keep it going ... and unfortunately these few leaders that were trying to be honest were also hooked in the cult ... so in a sense they enabled Vic ... they played out their own little "in the cult" drama ... it was exciting ... important ... but it kept the ministry alive ... kept the wuhrd alive (as it had not been known since the first century .. can't be losin' that)

But people stayed in the cult ... there were more victims ... four years .. man .. that is a long time to keep feeding the beast. So maybe I sent some women to be counseled ... but they had to get raped first ... four years of money and people fed to the beast ...

But there were those professional relationships to maintain ... so the abuse and counseling continued ... :unsure:

Anyway ... that is my instant analysis ... off the cuff ... no doubt not all right ... but the view of those in the middle of HQ craziness ... is also jaundiced ... so there you have it ...

flame away ... I don't claim any of that is factual ... it just portrays what I see .. questions I have ... another perspective to consider ... maybe one point adds some light ... or maybe it is a word of knowledge ... from above ....

yeah ... that's it ... that' the ticket ...

(now I see made a good post over there I think)

[doojable]

First I never pretended I was more capable then, than anyone else. But I can have a view now ... and discuss it ...

I had no direct knowledge of any real sexcapades .. I privately told you one minor incident, if that is what you are hinting at. It was a grab .. not sex. Someone else that was a problem ... was really being used by men in your fair city ... I think ... don't think I really knew that then.

No rhino. I wasn't hinting at anything. I asked a direct question because I had my one isolated incident and I had a question. - See how things can get misconstrued?

But - can you also see how many blindspots we had? Then you saw a grab and it didn't send up any red flags. I got groped - but since I thought it was just the one jerk I had no red flags fly. Not so today tho, huh? Today, with the benefit of hindsight lots of things are clear. Lots of things would have us all doing things much much differently.

Edited July 28, 2008 by doojable

[alfakat]

First I never pretended I was more capable then, than anyone else. But I can have a view now ... and discuss it ...

I had no direct knowledge of any real sexcapades .. I privately told you one minor incident, if that is what you are hinting at. It was a grab .. not sex. Someone else that was a problem ... was really being used by men in your fair city ... I think ... don't think I really knew that then.

But now we can look back and try to unravel some things. ... so why not?

So four years ... I don't know the doctors, nor do I know Don's position ... if he was working "behind enemy lines" ... he still should have been shipping victims to freedom ...as I see it.

But what I really believe ... since I have no reason to pat Don on the head, and tell him what a good boy he was ... (and I'm sure he doesn't need that) is that it all took place under the umbrella of Vic's control. It was still in the cult box thinking ... and the rest is rationalization. ...understandable ... but still not the 20/20 hindsight best course of action.

It looks to me like there was an inability to break from the cult, not so much a willful decision ... so the good hearted helping/counseling came under that "vic umbrella" ... under the vic influence.

As for going toe to toe ... it started that way ... but vic won in a knockout in 31 seconds (I forget that fight, Liston versus the ear biter?)

Money and people were being sent to this evil place ... but inside HQ ... it was a different world ... it was their whole world ... it was where the whole move of Gawd's Word ... that mankind depended on .. was emanating from ... what a mind pluck ...

I think VP and gang would have folded like a cheap suit when confronted with law enforcement and a few witnesses ... but the charade was enough to keep it going ... and unfortunately these few leaders that were trying to be honest were also hooked in the cult ... so in a sense they enabled Vic ... they played out their own little "in the cult" drama ... it was exciting ... important ... but it kept the ministry alive ... kept the wuhrd alive (as it had not been known since the first century .. can't be losin' that)

But people stayed in the cult ... there were more victims ... four years .. man .. that is a long time to keep feeding the beast. So maybe I sent some women to be counseled ... but they had to get raped first ... four years of money and people fed to the beast ...

But there were those professional relationships to maintain ... so the abuse and counseling continued ... :unsure:

Anyway ... that is my instant analysis ... off the cuff ... no doubt not all right ... but the view of those in the middle of HQ craziness ... is also jaundiced ... so there you have it ...

flame away ... I don't claim any of that is factual ... it just portrays what I see .. questions I have ... another perspective to consider ... maybe one point adds some light ... or maybe it is a word of knowledge ... from above ....

yeah ... that's it ... that' the ticket ...

(now I see made a good post over there I think)

Well, rhino my lad, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride....sure, NOW, We ALL know different. BUT, the only thing that counts is, we knew precious little back then.

Well, I would have and they should have and we could have and so on and so on and .....SO????

Sure, we all want to be the one that saved the day BUT it just did not happen that way. END OF STORY. I am thankful what happened happened and what further misery was spared, was spared. You really expect more could have been done considering the incredible manifest insanity of most at the top...??!! REALLY?? in what comic-book world would that be, pray tell???

[skyrider]

Skyrider I have no “beef” with you and always enjoy your insight and posts. Heck I really don’t care about the corpes only site; but I do object to posts here about what a wonderful place that is, or a check this out and a link posted where many can’t get there from here because they never went corpes.

Ductape......I have no "beef" with you either. And, just so you know...........I have chosen NOT to sign-on with that corps only site. I've never gone there. Personally, I just don't get "warm fuzzies" to those inrez days or whatever.

I've stated my opinion MANY times on GS.......to me, the corps program was A WIERWILLE INDOCTRINATION PROGRAM, not christian leadership training. For the past eight years, on Waydale and GS.....I've posted my experiences and viewpoints of the wierwille-idolatry.

And, in following twi's chain of command for over two decades...........I certainly have no desire to be grilled and/or questioned of my motives of heart. I had no knowledge of wierwille's sexual predation......or anything that resembled a "top-down path of corruption." But once I came face-to-face with that 1998 Advanced Class situation with martindale and a married corps woman..........and then further info.......THE SCALES FELL FROM MY EYES.

I guess......at this stage of life, after jumping thru those twi hoops......I have little desire to do those mental gymnastics of "woulda, coulda, shoulda" scenarios. To me, any dialogue that opens areas of understanding is acceptable........at times, it's gut-wrenching to even re-visit this stuff again.

Peace.

[geisha779]

Oh I get it now Rhino--I am dense. You think it is because Don't Worry was a big player, some still carry that worship over today? Am I wrong? No malicious voice

or tone.

I figured out who it was--remembered him, and feel real empathy for what he MIGHT still carry. I could not imagine being in the middle of that storm.

A life altering event for both victim and those who were putting their finger in the hole trying to stop the flood. He seems to have shown real care and concern

some 20 years later. Who am I to add to his memories with questions of Why? I am just glad he got out when he did--lead my hubby and I right out--chain reaction.

But, as a muckety muck--who cares?? As a human being I do care enough to offer a few words of kindness--TWI hurt me--but I never had to stand up to guns

and dogs while trying to care for my little kids. Empathy and understanding with a backing of forgivness to one who has real concern for the OTHER Men's

victims. Seems more well adjusted than not??

Oh, hubby had a gun pulled on him once though--a wacky limb leader--

Take Care--no malice or tone meant at all.