Apparently I wasn't clear in my post. I have no trouble making judgments - even harsh judgments at times. I wholeheartedly agree that we make judgments and should do so (I even said so in my post.) Then again, I'm not the one that said that I will judge but not condemn. I questioned how that is possible.
But - I don't want to discuss that post anymore - it could derail the thread and I'm not doing that.
If need be that can become a separate thread.
*********************************************
Rhino, this line makes no sense to me:
So I still don't quite get all these 24 years Don spent in "professional therapeutic counseling" with these ex culties ... while he was trying to recover himself.
Where did that come from? Twenty-four years?
As far as everything else you've been writing - well I just don't know where you're coming from. You seem intent on placing blame even while you say, "I don't blame Don."
IMO - if you want answers you should be asking questions and not building scenarios that fit your assessment of what did and did not happen. (I'd say you're really past even that approach now.) This method of blaming while not blaming isn't working. I have tried and tried to read these posts and imagine concern and sympathy - and no matter what I do, I hear smugness and finger-pointing. That *just might* be why you're getting the responses you're getting.
We make choices for our life that involve Judgementsof the situation of people of the climate of anything we think will help or harm us .
that is easy to understand.
I chose a pink paint on my wall another chooses blue... I chose to work at this place another wants that type of job.
He is a PERSONAL Saviour we get to chose when we obey or not and how we live life.
Condemation is not judgement.
I hate you you deserve to die for liking the color blue. or as a gs crowd would understand , most of us like pink we hate blue so your wrong we are right.
nah it doesnt work that way in the real world.
we have laws and courts to convict crimes we have a series of standards accepted by society as a people ALL people.
Some have the christian standard of the bible and the theory we allow Jesus to Judge the many trials of God people.
we can and do make judgements for our own life mostly, and as a people we can judge another worthy of a certain punishment (time in jail) cant not drive a car etc. In America we are EQUALS.
In both cases we have decided a certain standard that has the boundarys in which we will obey or suffer consequences.
But we really connot condem one another .
I cant say be gone YOU who bothers me because I like the color PINK and you do not.
Nor can I say I think this about that person and it is found to be a truth in our courts of law or before the very throne of Jesus Christ.
Actually, I was amazed at the level of arrogance of people higher in the pecking order who (honestly) believed it was their right and duty to tell me what they believed was best in my life. How offended they could become when they were told to butt-out.
Getting back to DWBH's initial thoughts.
Women are groomed from a very young age to be people pleasers and this plays very heavily into sexual exploitation. Girls who have experienced emotional, sexual, and physical abuse see their bodies as instruments; there's nothing sacred about them. Predators, especially the ministerial types, exploit this error in thinking by attaching a sort of sacredness to the use of the women's bodies - in the context of servicing the ministry. This "specialness" attached to the act makes it worthwhile when otherwise you just become dead inside.
I have not talked to anyone who have been abused in TWI, but my guess is that the women felt sick about what was happening, but believed the reason for that feeling was because they felt unworthy of being "chosen" by the leaders. Because the females were young, they had no idea why they were chosen. I can only imagine that some only felt shame and humiliation when they discovered that they were not the only chosen one. Others felt the shame and humiliation after being cast aside. I don't think many felt the exploitation at the time. What I believe they felt was unworthy.
I was in my 30s before I realized how childhood sexual molesting had molded me; how it made me a target, how it robbed me of my innocence, how it kept me from seeing my body as the sacred thing that it is, and how I was exploited because of that. I have no memory of my body being mine alone as I was first touched inappropriately when I was around 2. I had no other point of reference. However, I started getting the idea that my body was sacred after PFAL - not that PFAL taught me that it was, but what PFAL did was get my mind into the teachings in the Bible, which frowns on adultery and fornication. That's why I found the sexual escapades of the corp on the field to be rather odd. Where were they getting the idea that this was OK? I talked to a couple who said they were taught that penetration before marriage was not OK, but everything else was acceptable. It was also OK to have sex with non-PFAL grads, but it wasn't OK after they took the class.
Apparently I wasn't clear in my post. I have no trouble making judgments - even harsh judgments at times.
I think you were clear, I was agreeing ... others disagreed.
Rhino, this line makes no sense to me:
So I still don't quite get all
these 24 years
Don spent in "professional therapeutic counseling" with these ex culties ... while he was trying to recover himself.
Where did that come from? Twenty-four years?
Don said ...
during the 24 years since may, 1984, i have spent thousands of hours with hundreds of people whom these men, and an unfortunately long list of other twi "leaders" have hurt, damaged, and destroyed during their careers as "christian leaders"! these have been hours spent in
developing and protecting professional, therapeutic relationships
with fellow human beings who still wear the scars and bear the burdens of the profound betrayal suffered at the hands of these sexual and "spiritual" predators! i choose not to betray the confidences of those who trust and expect me to keep confidential, the deeply personal information they have shared with me during these 24 years, in their desperate attempt to somehow make sense of what they experienced and endured.
As far as everything else you've been writing - well I just don't know where you're coming from. You seem intent on placing blame even while you say, "I don't blame Don."
IMO - if you want answers you should be asking questions and not building scenarios that fit your assessment of what did and did not happen. (I'd say you're really past even that approach now.) This method of blaming while not blaming isn't working. I have tried and tried to read these posts and imagine concern and sympathy - and no matter what I do, I hear smugness and finger-pointing. That *just might* be why you're getting the responses you're getting.
You don't know what responses I'm getting.
It is simple .... I quoted what Don himself said his state was at the time. And so given that, how can I blame him? He was on the edge ... he needed out, he did not want to deal with it, nor was he able to deal with it. He did what he should have as an executive and talked to VP and Howard ... and they let him know that was the end of the matter.
I believe the rest was Don in a cult, in survival mode. People were being controlled by a fanatical, cruel abuser ... but that was allowed to continue while some symptoms were treated. This is just putting band aids on the cuts ... but the victimization continued. I don't consider that non-treatment to be real professional therapeutic counseling. It was in house cult false comfort.
It continued in house, secret from the 99% of TWI on the field, mostly till after the yak twig. Till then The Way Tree chain of command was still in effect. So that was four to six years .. a long time to feed the beast, as I said. I don't blame Don for not breaking free ... he described his mental state. I strongly disagree with his portrayal of the event as being anything like professional counseling ... the boss was allowed to continue abusing the employees for the whole time ... band aids were applied to the wounds.
I don't know what professional therapeutic counseling was done for the next 20 years ... Don has not shown any professional credentials. It appears more like the back and forth that happens here at GSC. So I don't get why he has this emphasis on all his professional therapy ... given his assessmet of his state then, and some of the outbursts I pointed out, it seems he is like everyone else that was duped ... needing the professional help ...
As I stated, those most in were most harmed ... but I still see outbursts that are less than civil ... not just here.
So I am judging the situation and the reactions here ... that is what we do all the time. He misquoted and judged me .... I think I am more fair and more civil ... but flat out disagree with the band aid therapy that was going on.
It looks pretentious to me, to claim that was some professional therapeutic relationship ... it was fellow abused victim bonding, with the backdrop of being a TWI rockstar ... and a key player in the gas pump fantasy, with thousands of supporters around the world. GLORY DAYS .... on the one hand ... turmoil on the other. Cognitive dissonance.
Keeping the victims under the control of the maniac, and failure to inform the 99% of the ministry ... but rather painting everything as fine while those drunk liars sent drunk thieves and abusers out as leaders to ruin people's lives on the field ... I have to strongly disagree with those actions.
And I disagree with any revisionist history ... that professional therapy was ongoing, while this maniacal mad doctor carried on ... with all his henchmen. Somehow AFTER Don was kicked out of the yak ... then the word got out. So it was possible to get the word out ... but till people left TWI, that action seemed out of line. They were still submissive to The Way Tree ... even when it was the bus driver.
As waysider and others said .. we were all duped ... sure it is easier to see now ... but I prefer an honest history of events.
Don certainly does have a lot to say though ... but history has many viewpoints ...
My more than two cents... I think this is a dishonest way to review the actions of someone.
It is just about the actions ... not about who took them. But how do you separate those?
The Way Tree worked in VP's favor, protecting him from all comers. Whatever else went on, that power was not broken ... it should have been. I just don't see any underground movement to break the thang up .... till VP was gone ... THEN people were able to write letters and communicate to the rank and file TWI folks about the misdeeds.
That seems the important point as I see it. MOGFOT privilege was extended. It trumped everything else. There were NO HEROES. I believe it was because Don's state was as he said (others didn't even try or were part of the gulag enforcement) ... I don't believe it was that all these people went to Don or the others just for counseling ... and that there was some ongoing behind the scenes effort to clean the thing up ... there was inaction, people were buried in the system, some literally.
What do you think is dishonest? How else do you give a view of events as portrayed by someone else ... these were key people ... key events ... everyone in the ministry was burdened. Four to six years elders had knowledge ... not a peep ...
Then the finger was pointed at me ... "what did I do?" ... I believed what was coming from HQ ... and finally based on a little knowledge, got everyone in my space out. HQ secrets were kept from everyone till after VP ... they shouldn't have been.
Joh Lynn apologized for not acting sooner ... he was lost in group think ... that seems more honest, at least on that point. We have this pretty full disclosure on the open internet here now ... what if this initial post had been communicated in '82. Apparently there is nothing about client privilege or confidentiality that is an issue ... it is here for the world to see.
The Way Tree worked in VP's favor, protecting him from all comers. Whatever else went on, that power was not broken ... it should have been. I just don't see any underground movement to break the thang up .... till VP was gone ... THEN people were able to write letters and communicate to the rank and file TWI folks about the misdeeds.
I'm not sure this is significant or not, but MOST of those at HQ in 1984 were just kids when they met the 50 year old victoid.
I once mentioned to a counselor that for a long time I felt "stuck" at the same age that I was when I first got in twi. I believe someone mentioned something like that on either this thread or another.
So for many others perhaps this was true - along with that "father in the word" crap... vic tried to become a father figure of sorts. That bought him all sorts of "protection."
Going up against der victoid was not easy because there were so many surrounding him - no doubt many were vying for the future presidency by the time these abuse stories starting surfacing. Once he was gone there was a free-for-all scramble for power.
I applaud Don for not becoming part of the scramble and not starting some off-shoot.
... I don't believe it was that all these people went to Don or the others just for counseling ... and that there was some ongoing behind the scenes effort to clean the thing up ...
I just don't agree with your POV here. And whether you intended to or not - there is a unspoken accusation being made.
What do you think is dishonest? How else do you give a view of events as portrayed by someone else ... these were key people ... key events ... everyone in the ministry was burdened. Four to six years elders had knowledge ... not a peep ...
I don't see you only giving a view - I see a review - and commentary. You are making many more statements than asking questions. That says to me that you want to promote an idea more than you want to put a puzzle together.
How would you handle this if you and Don were sitting at a counter having a few beers? No audience and no peanut gallery... That would be an honest approach - not this.
Then the finger was pointed at me ... "what did I do?" ... I believed what was coming from HQ ... and finally based on a little knowledge, got everyone in my space out. HQ secrets were kept from everyone till after VP ... they shouldn't have been.
Then again - you didn't have kids to raise and feed - did you? You weren't held under house arrest for days with guns and dogs threatening your young family - were you? Add to that that your "space" was smaller. AND- you had the luxury of leaving after all these other events were old and had been sorted out. Someone had to do the sorting out. By the time you got everyone in your space out - the real hard work had been done.
I can't speak for anyone and certainly not Don- but if he believed as many of us did at the time- that Gawd had any part of the ministry at any time, then that would have dictated some sorting out before flying off the handle.
Joh Lynn apologized for not acting sooner ... he was lost in group think ... that seems more honest, at least on that point.
Oh yea... JAL... the guy who still thinks twi was the best thing since sliced bread. Uh-huh... yea
While you're giving your honest opinion - why not try being honestly empathetic.
Yes, Dooj, whether in the church or in court, there are times when responsibility to judge comes into play. I could have been clearer about that. Pilate was "given" authority, and we may find ourselves in positions to decide right from wrong, and act accordingly.
Just so you know, I'm mainly concerned about what my "job" is, and I'm still figuring that out. I believe we are gifted in various ways, and likewise our varied experiences equip us and may even disqualify us from certain roles. DWBH may (for all I know) currently be in perfect correspondence with his God-given responsibilities and gifts -- an active member of the Body of Christ, in subjection to the Head and acting in concert with Him. For reasons more varied than I can discuss, I'm not in a position to be much of a judge.... and yet, I'm sure it must seem, I "judge the judgers." Forgive me this duplicity. It's just what I'm working out in my own life.
"I get to use my brain and common sense and assess people and situations as they arise."
Indeed. Too bad I didn't do that sooner in my Way journey. (Possibly because I was uncommonly not possessed of common sense.) You seem to have a considerable portion!
edited to add the italicized word, which didn't make the statement all that clearer
Tbone, I missed your last post. I'd like to put a little spin on something you said:
But He expects us to judge thoughts, words, and deeds.
You make it clear you understand what I'm going to say later in your post.... TWIers, especially those in authority, all too often thought the could look into a person's soul and make a judgment based upon "the Word." I saw it happen destructively at times. For that reason, I'm particularly sensitive to being that way with anyone, so I would not say that God expects me to "judge thoughts" unless we were talking about my OWN thoughts. Once another's thoughts become words or deeds, then perhaps I should, or at least can, judge (in a godly way, of course) -- like, as I said before, in the case of fornication, which Paul dealt with (to use Dooj's word) "harshly." But I'm VERY careful -- perhaps too careful, not to presume to know the thoughts and intents of the heart, nor what may have driven a person to abuse food or narcotics or to forsake all that is good in the pursuit of money or "success." Things like Columbine and 911 confound me, as do many lesser things.
But (and now I speak to y'all) that's just me. Party on.
That's a good perspective ADan - and an honest approach.
I agree that in twi many of us thought we had some back door entrance into what was really going on in another's heart and soul - even more than they did themselves.
I applaud Don for not becoming part of the scramble and not starting some off-shoot.
I just don't agree with your POV here. And whether you intended to or not - there is a unspoken accusation being made.
Yes ... Vic was the higher power ... Don was not able to stand up to him ... I think that is fact, not accusation. He tried and then found up what he was really up against ... Don describes it pretty well, doesn't he?
I don't see you only giving a view - I see a review - and commentary. You are making many more statements than asking questions. That says to me that you want to promote an idea more than you want to put a puzzle together.
How would you handle this if you and Don were sitting at a counter having a few beers? No audience and no peanut gallery... That would be an honest approach - not this.
this is a forum ... sure, face to face at a bar would be different, but we are in a forum ... it can be honest here also. Why am I only allowed to ask questions, in your rule book? I was sending in money and people ... why is the perspective of the 99% of TWI that was on the field not important?
This idea that other TWI clergy have greater insight seems bogus ... maybe they have lesser insight. Being clergy was shown to not mean much of anything in TWI ... and some seem to still think there was some greater understanding at HQ ... I see it as greater confusion.
Then again - you didn't have kids to raise and feed - did you? You weren't held under house arrest for days with guns and dogs threatening your young family - were you? Add to that that your "space" was smaller. AND- you had the luxury of leaving after all these other events were old andhad been sorted out. Someone had to do the sorting out. By the time you got everyone in your space out - the real hard work had been done.
Exactly, it was and is easier for me to have a different maybe clearer perspective ... I was not so owned and controlled by doc vic ... but we are talking about four years at HQ, not just those couple of incidents ... starting in '82 I think.
Don stuck around to see what orders the bus driver was going to pass down. Trying to hold the ministry together was still important. I'm trying to reconcile all that.
Oh yea... JAL... the guy who still thinks twi was the best thing since sliced bread. Uh-huh... yea
While you're giving your honest opinion - why not try being honestly empathetic.
That was from the Jalvis letter in '88 ... I said he was at least right on that point. I'm not sure he STILL thinks TWI was great, that may just be his latest tack. It seems he was united with some others at that point.
I AM being empathetic ... I'm empathetic toward all those that suffered through those last four to six years when several exec's at HQ knew of the hypocrisy and lies and drunks and abuse ... but chose to keep it a secret.
We all soldiered on while the thumbs up was the message given from trunk. While I can understand Don's state, I can not agree that it was a conscious and correct decision to keep the 99% on the field in the dark ... nor to not push harder for a change. It was guided by confusion and fear of VP.
What needed to be revealed wasn't confidential knowledge .. Jalvis talked about it in 1988 ... we are talking about it now ... Don didn't want "the burden" ... he didn't ask for it, he just wanted to go back to NY and "move the Word".
I think there needs to be more than one perspective ... that one coming from deep inside "identity confusion" in the middle of HQ. There is nothing dishonest about that ... and there is empathy for Don's state, not blame .... he described it well ...
... how could we protect ourselves and our families??.......how could we have been so duped??........how could we survive outside "god's household".......how could we not speak up??........what could we do for work?, how would we support our families?... raise our children?........how could we stay in twi?........how could we leave?..........talk about identity confusion!!!!!
Edit: somehow I missed a bunch of posts that have now magically appeared, and again, some wonderful discussion/ comments. Really, really good stuff. My favorite, though, was Juan's.... enjoy your vacation!
Thanks, Dan.
I re-read my post. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Vacation was great except for the love of my life winding up in the hospital with pneumonia from a boogie-board/big wave induced cracked rib. A nurse said they "get that all the time." (!)
If we were still in the Way..... well, she would have been just as sick... in just as much pain.... and maybe not had insurance....and all wondering about her believing ... hoping no one insisted on 'ministering healing' to her... (an empty sordid spectacle)
post-Way? she was heroic, not letting it spoil any one else's time. No one wondered a bit what "Father" had to do with it or should do with it.. or why she was "attacked".... or why she didn't heal faster than unbelievers... or how to spin it into a testimony to the advantages of being a grad.... (oh, how twisted it all was)
guess I'm off topic... hmmmm, well, everyone should know where to go for some counseling... and, if you've never gone.... why not? no issues? no pain? no traumas, tragedies? no need to improve communication anywhere?
there, now I'm on topic. good for me. I deserve a Klondike ice cream bar.
Peace,
Juan
"Todos serán bien, y todos serán bien, y todo tipo de cosas serán bien." Santa Juliana de Norwich
Juan, you make another good point. We didn't really prepare people for when s h i t happens. And yet, it does.
Because it was never supposed to happen, and if it did you brought it on yourself - as I had someone explain to me when my baby was born severely ill. God was punishing me for (obviously) not abundantly sharing enough. I said I refused to worship a god who would hurt a child over a money issue.
Some good points, folks! Got me thinking about The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuseby David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen. Talking about learned powerlessness on page 55:
"People learn to be or act powerless by experiencing relationships that have either prepared them to be abused, or not prepared them to not be abused."
also, i think one really great thought was NOT to go for counseling with someone who was IN THE CULT.
I agree. That's something don't (aka don39) confronted me on very recently, and I appreciate that.
And it also goes for all of us here, I believe.
I've not been able to take ex-wayers too seriously regarding counseling, especially someone who minimalizes someone else's experience. I think someone who has been in a cult and realized how bad it was could offer some insight.
Here's a great forgiveness book. I thought it would be a great addition to the CES bookstore and gave my copy to MG. I'm going to get another as it was a great book.
You don't have to turn it into a doctrinal discussion--good old common sense prevails.
Does Hannibal Lecter get a bunch of babysitting gigs? No, why not?
Would you let the neighorhood sex offender run Sunday School?
Does a blind man drive the school bus?
We make judgements EVERYDAY about people. We are careful with our children. We teach them to be careful. Why?
There are bad people and we have to judge them according to what they do--to stay safe
Seems simple enough--We have a mind and reason--keeps us SAFE and our children safe. We have laws which carry penalties if we fail to do this with good old
common sense. Why on earth would God expect less from us than the state?
Thinking about this recent discussion again…and reviewing the Spiritual Abuse book…Geisha got me thinking about how natural and necessary it is to judge – whether it's for the safety & security of our children or ourselves…heck, even thinking about "surviving" day-to-day, the faculty of judgment must be constantly tasked…assessing a business deal before you sign the dotted line, or bargain shopping – what constitutes a good buy? Perhaps it's a given that folks have their own criteria for decision-making on lots of things.
Maybe we're not always aware of an extensive checklist or criteria and I'm sure our emotions add levels of complexity in our thinking. One of the most complicated "rituals" I can think of is the whole dating/choosing-a-mate-process. Especially nowadays – of course, I'm out of touch but I'm thinking how mobile and disconnected some are from their roots – it then becomes more challenging for a couple to check each other out. I'm not putting down dating services or anything – just think there's a lot more to the classic marrying-your-childhood-sweetheart thing than meets the eye. Yeah, it was just a looooong, slooooow detailed process of checking each other out.
I like the practical aspects of judgment that Geisha brought up. Therefore, it makes sense that the "atmosphere" of TWI tended to incapacitate our faculty of judgment. It was a system of predators setting up victims by getting them to turn off parts of their natural defense system. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abusenails the subversive methods of The Way International – I'm tempted to think the authors plagiarized from a little known book by vp called How I did it!The learned powerlessness, shame-based relationships, focus on performance, manipulation, idolatry, preoccupation with fault & blame, obscured reality, power-posturing, unspoken rules, the "can't talk" rule, [okay that's just from pages 53 to 69, better stop there so my post ain't too long :) ] continually pounded away at our faculties – rendering folks into an homogenized group of punch-drunk followers. Yeeech!!!!
IMHO, a therapeutic relationship is one that is respectful of the individual…not violating boundaries…not ramrodding ideas into the heart…not encasing the soul in a life-sucking organizational cocoon. I speak from experience – not as a professional therapist but as a patient. And from my side of the couch, I think the professional really hits the therapeutic mark when they succeed in getting the patient to start engaging reality. I thank God for professional therapeutic relationships – and think they do a lot more for mental health than TWI ever did. Who knows – if I could borrow from the Lazarus account in John 11, maybe in a way Jesus is standing behind the professional, as he calls someone out of the cult's cave and helps them peel off the captivating layers of grave clothes.
John 11: 43, 44 NIV
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."
i've always wondered why it was so much easier to leave once he kicked. I must have thought he was a real MOG father for our day and time, or it just got easier to leave (peer pressure guilt) once the ball got rolling
--
TZ so sorry about your baby. and i loved what you said about God not making your dear baby sick due to a money issue (how gross)
Here's a great forgiveness book. I thought it would be a great addition to the CES bookstore and gave my copy to MG. I'm going to get another as it was a great book.
Tzaia, what did you enjoy about this book?
How is it different from others on forgiveness that you've read?
I'm not sure if I can do steps books--as in the 9 steps to forgiveness--sounds too much like a formula.
Could I borrow yours? I don't spend money on books like that anymore.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
18
11
9
9
Popular Days
Jul 26
49
Jul 27
30
Aug 2
27
Jul 31
11
Top Posters In This Topic
rhino 18 posts
doojable 11 posts
T-Bone 9 posts
anotherDan 9 posts
Popular Days
Jul 26 2008
49 posts
Jul 27 2008
30 posts
Aug 2 2008
27 posts
Jul 31 2008
11 posts
doojable
Apparently I wasn't clear in my post. I have no trouble making judgments - even harsh judgments at times. I wholeheartedly agree that we make judgments and should do so (I even said so in my post.) Then again, I'm not the one that said that I will judge but not condemn. I questioned how that is possible.
But - I don't want to discuss that post anymore - it could derail the thread and I'm not doing that.
If need be that can become a separate thread.
*********************************************
Rhino, this line makes no sense to me:
Where did that come from? Twenty-four years?
As far as everything else you've been writing - well I just don't know where you're coming from. You seem intent on placing blame even while you say, "I don't blame Don."
IMO - if you want answers you should be asking questions and not building scenarios that fit your assessment of what did and did not happen. (I'd say you're really past even that approach now.) This method of blaming while not blaming isn't working. I have tried and tried to read these posts and imagine concern and sympathy - and no matter what I do, I hear smugness and finger-pointing. That *just might* be why you're getting the responses you're getting.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
We make choices for our life that involve Judgementsof the situation of people of the climate of anything we think will help or harm us .
that is easy to understand.
I chose a pink paint on my wall another chooses blue... I chose to work at this place another wants that type of job.
He is a PERSONAL Saviour we get to chose when we obey or not and how we live life.
Condemation is not judgement.
I hate you you deserve to die for liking the color blue. or as a gs crowd would understand , most of us like pink we hate blue so your wrong we are right.
nah it doesnt work that way in the real world.
we have laws and courts to convict crimes we have a series of standards accepted by society as a people ALL people.
Some have the christian standard of the bible and the theory we allow Jesus to Judge the many trials of God people.
we can and do make judgements for our own life mostly, and as a people we can judge another worthy of a certain punishment (time in jail) cant not drive a car etc. In America we are EQUALS.
In both cases we have decided a certain standard that has the boundarys in which we will obey or suffer consequences.
But we really connot condem one another .
I cant say be gone YOU who bothers me because I like the color PINK and you do not.
Nor can I say I think this about that person and it is found to be a truth in our courts of law or before the very throne of Jesus Christ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
We all got duped-----All of us.
When we handed someone our pen to sign the now infamous "green card", we were part of it.
When we sat in front of the twig and expounded on the amazing (cough) "law" of believing, we were part of it.
When we went door-to-door or mall witnessing to entice people to sign up for PLAF (The Wonder Class), we were part of it.
When we refused to allow a brother or sister to voice a "negative" but rather insisted they "renew their mind", we were part of it.
And------------- we thought that what we were doing was helping people.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Actually, I was amazed at the level of arrogance of people higher in the pecking order who (honestly) believed it was their right and duty to tell me what they believed was best in my life. How offended they could become when they were told to butt-out.
Getting back to DWBH's initial thoughts.
Women are groomed from a very young age to be people pleasers and this plays very heavily into sexual exploitation. Girls who have experienced emotional, sexual, and physical abuse see their bodies as instruments; there's nothing sacred about them. Predators, especially the ministerial types, exploit this error in thinking by attaching a sort of sacredness to the use of the women's bodies - in the context of servicing the ministry. This "specialness" attached to the act makes it worthwhile when otherwise you just become dead inside.
I have not talked to anyone who have been abused in TWI, but my guess is that the women felt sick about what was happening, but believed the reason for that feeling was because they felt unworthy of being "chosen" by the leaders. Because the females were young, they had no idea why they were chosen. I can only imagine that some only felt shame and humiliation when they discovered that they were not the only chosen one. Others felt the shame and humiliation after being cast aside. I don't think many felt the exploitation at the time. What I believe they felt was unworthy.
I was in my 30s before I realized how childhood sexual molesting had molded me; how it made me a target, how it robbed me of my innocence, how it kept me from seeing my body as the sacred thing that it is, and how I was exploited because of that. I have no memory of my body being mine alone as I was first touched inappropriately when I was around 2. I had no other point of reference. However, I started getting the idea that my body was sacred after PFAL - not that PFAL taught me that it was, but what PFAL did was get my mind into the teachings in the Bible, which frowns on adultery and fornication. That's why I found the sexual escapades of the corp on the field to be rather odd. Where were they getting the idea that this was OK? I talked to a couple who said they were taught that penetration before marriage was not OK, but everything else was acceptable. It was also OK to have sex with non-PFAL grads, but it wasn't OK after they took the class.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
I think you were clear, I was agreeing ... others disagreed.
Don said ...
You don't know what responses I'm getting.
It is simple .... I quoted what Don himself said his state was at the time. And so given that, how can I blame him? He was on the edge ... he needed out, he did not want to deal with it, nor was he able to deal with it. He did what he should have as an executive and talked to VP and Howard ... and they let him know that was the end of the matter.
I believe the rest was Don in a cult, in survival mode. People were being controlled by a fanatical, cruel abuser ... but that was allowed to continue while some symptoms were treated. This is just putting band aids on the cuts ... but the victimization continued. I don't consider that non-treatment to be real professional therapeutic counseling. It was in house cult false comfort.
It continued in house, secret from the 99% of TWI on the field, mostly till after the yak twig. Till then The Way Tree chain of command was still in effect. So that was four to six years .. a long time to feed the beast, as I said. I don't blame Don for not breaking free ... he described his mental state. I strongly disagree with his portrayal of the event as being anything like professional counseling ... the boss was allowed to continue abusing the employees for the whole time ... band aids were applied to the wounds.
I don't know what professional therapeutic counseling was done for the next 20 years ... Don has not shown any professional credentials. It appears more like the back and forth that happens here at GSC. So I don't get why he has this emphasis on all his professional therapy ... given his assessmet of his state then, and some of the outbursts I pointed out, it seems he is like everyone else that was duped ... needing the professional help ...
As I stated, those most in were most harmed ... but I still see outbursts that are less than civil ... not just here.
So I am judging the situation and the reactions here ... that is what we do all the time. He misquoted and judged me .... I think I am more fair and more civil ... but flat out disagree with the band aid therapy that was going on.
It looks pretentious to me, to claim that was some professional therapeutic relationship ... it was fellow abused victim bonding, with the backdrop of being a TWI rockstar ... and a key player in the gas pump fantasy, with thousands of supporters around the world. GLORY DAYS .... on the one hand ... turmoil on the other. Cognitive dissonance.
Keeping the victims under the control of the maniac, and failure to inform the 99% of the ministry ... but rather painting everything as fine while those drunk liars sent drunk thieves and abusers out as leaders to ruin people's lives on the field ... I have to strongly disagree with those actions.
And I disagree with any revisionist history ... that professional therapy was ongoing, while this maniacal mad doctor carried on ... with all his henchmen. Somehow AFTER Don was kicked out of the yak ... then the word got out. So it was possible to get the word out ... but till people left TWI, that action seemed out of line. They were still submissive to The Way Tree ... even when it was the bus driver.
As waysider and others said .. we were all duped ... sure it is easier to see now ... but I prefer an honest history of events.
Don certainly does have a lot to say though ... but history has many viewpoints ...
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Actually - that part of the post wasn't directed to you. I was responding to geisha. No problem- but you see how it goes...
I only know the responses that are posted. So, I guess you're right - I don't know what responses you're getting.
My more than two cents... I think this is a dishonest way to review the actions of someone.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I was responding to "Another Dan" your post was clear as a bell--I was agreeing with you. :)
Geisha
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
It is just about the actions ... not about who took them. But how do you separate those?
The Way Tree worked in VP's favor, protecting him from all comers. Whatever else went on, that power was not broken ... it should have been. I just don't see any underground movement to break the thang up .... till VP was gone ... THEN people were able to write letters and communicate to the rank and file TWI folks about the misdeeds.
That seems the important point as I see it. MOGFOT privilege was extended. It trumped everything else. There were NO HEROES. I believe it was because Don's state was as he said (others didn't even try or were part of the gulag enforcement) ... I don't believe it was that all these people went to Don or the others just for counseling ... and that there was some ongoing behind the scenes effort to clean the thing up ... there was inaction, people were buried in the system, some literally.
What do you think is dishonest? How else do you give a view of events as portrayed by someone else ... these were key people ... key events ... everyone in the ministry was burdened. Four to six years elders had knowledge ... not a peep ...
Then the finger was pointed at me ... "what did I do?" ... I believed what was coming from HQ ... and finally based on a little knowledge, got everyone in my space out. HQ secrets were kept from everyone till after VP ... they shouldn't have been.
Joh Lynn apologized for not acting sooner ... he was lost in group think ... that seems more honest, at least on that point. We have this pretty full disclosure on the open internet here now ... what if this initial post had been communicated in '82. Apparently there is nothing about client privilege or confidentiality that is an issue ... it is here for the world to see.
That is my honest opinion ...
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
LOL! Like I said- see how it goes?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I'm not sure this is significant or not, but MOST of those at HQ in 1984 were just kids when they met the 50 year old victoid.
I once mentioned to a counselor that for a long time I felt "stuck" at the same age that I was when I first got in twi. I believe someone mentioned something like that on either this thread or another.
So for many others perhaps this was true - along with that "father in the word" crap... vic tried to become a father figure of sorts. That bought him all sorts of "protection."
Going up against der victoid was not easy because there were so many surrounding him - no doubt many were vying for the future presidency by the time these abuse stories starting surfacing. Once he was gone there was a free-for-all scramble for power.
I applaud Don for not becoming part of the scramble and not starting some off-shoot.
I just don't agree with your POV here. And whether you intended to or not - there is a unspoken accusation being made.I don't see you only giving a view - I see a review - and commentary. You are making many more statements than asking questions. That says to me that you want to promote an idea more than you want to put a puzzle together.
How would you handle this if you and Don were sitting at a counter having a few beers? No audience and no peanut gallery... That would be an honest approach - not this.
Then again - you didn't have kids to raise and feed - did you? You weren't held under house arrest for days with guns and dogs threatening your young family - were you? Add to that that your "space" was smaller. AND- you had the luxury of leaving after all these other events were old and had been sorted out. Someone had to do the sorting out. By the time you got everyone in your space out - the real hard work had been done.I can't speak for anyone and certainly not Don- but if he believed as many of us did at the time- that Gawd had any part of the ministry at any time, then that would have dictated some sorting out before flying off the handle.
Oh yea... JAL... the guy who still thinks twi was the best thing since sliced bread. Uh-huh... yea
While you're giving your honest opinion - why not try being honestly empathetic.
I think I'm done with this subject for a while...
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Yes, Dooj, whether in the church or in court, there are times when responsibility to judge comes into play. I could have been clearer about that. Pilate was "given" authority, and we may find ourselves in positions to decide right from wrong, and act accordingly.
Just so you know, I'm mainly concerned about what my "job" is, and I'm still figuring that out. I believe we are gifted in various ways, and likewise our varied experiences equip us and may even disqualify us from certain roles. DWBH may (for all I know) currently be in perfect correspondence with his God-given responsibilities and gifts -- an active member of the Body of Christ, in subjection to the Head and acting in concert with Him. For reasons more varied than I can discuss, I'm not in a position to be much of a judge.... and yet, I'm sure it must seem, I "judge the judgers." Forgive me this duplicity. It's just what I'm working out in my own life.
"I get to use my brain and common sense and assess people and situations as they arise."
Indeed. Too bad I didn't do that sooner in my Way journey. (Possibly because I was uncommonly not possessed of common sense.) You seem to have a considerable portion!
edited to add the italicized word, which didn't make the statement all that clearer
Edited by anotherDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Geisha, thanks for the input. I respect your POV.
Tbone, I missed your last post. I'd like to put a little spin on something you said:
You make it clear you understand what I'm going to say later in your post.... TWIers, especially those in authority, all too often thought the could look into a person's soul and make a judgment based upon "the Word." I saw it happen destructively at times. For that reason, I'm particularly sensitive to being that way with anyone, so I would not say that God expects me to "judge thoughts" unless we were talking about my OWN thoughts. Once another's thoughts become words or deeds, then perhaps I should, or at least can, judge (in a godly way, of course) -- like, as I said before, in the case of fornication, which Paul dealt with (to use Dooj's word) "harshly." But I'm VERY careful -- perhaps too careful, not to presume to know the thoughts and intents of the heart, nor what may have driven a person to abuse food or narcotics or to forsake all that is good in the pursuit of money or "success." Things like Columbine and 911 confound me, as do many lesser things.
But (and now I speak to y'all) that's just me. Party on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
That's a good perspective ADan - and an honest approach.
I agree that in twi many of us thought we had some back door entrance into what was really going on in another's heart and soul - even more than they did themselves.
What arrogant bs that was.
Thanks for your response.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i'm getting lost again trying to catch up.
yeah, i know i said i wouldn't be reading on here, but i'm a liar.
TZ thank you for your excellent thoughts
--
also, i think one really great thought was NOT to go for counseling with someone who was IN THE CULT.
I agree. That's something don't (aka don39) confronted me on very recently, and I appreciate that.
And it also goes for all of us here, I believe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Proverbs 21
Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.
--
maybe i should start a new tombstone thread
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
Yes ... Vic was the higher power ... Don was not able to stand up to him ... I think that is fact, not accusation. He tried and then found up what he was really up against ... Don describes it pretty well, doesn't he?
this is a forum ... sure, face to face at a bar would be different, but we are in a forum ... it can be honest here also. Why am I only allowed to ask questions, in your rule book? I was sending in money and people ... why is the perspective of the 99% of TWI that was on the field not important?
This idea that other TWI clergy have greater insight seems bogus ... maybe they have lesser insight. Being clergy was shown to not mean much of anything in TWI ... and some seem to still think there was some greater understanding at HQ ... I see it as greater confusion.
Exactly, it was and is easier for me to have a different maybe clearer perspective ... I was not so owned and controlled by doc vic ... but we are talking about four years at HQ, not just those couple of incidents ... starting in '82 I think.
Don stuck around to see what orders the bus driver was going to pass down. Trying to hold the ministry together was still important. I'm trying to reconcile all that.
That was from the Jalvis letter in '88 ... I said he was at least right on that point. I'm not sure he STILL thinks TWI was great, that may just be his latest tack. It seems he was united with some others at that point.
I AM being empathetic ... I'm empathetic toward all those that suffered through those last four to six years when several exec's at HQ knew of the hypocrisy and lies and drunks and abuse ... but chose to keep it a secret.
We all soldiered on while the thumbs up was the message given from trunk. While I can understand Don's state, I can not agree that it was a conscious and correct decision to keep the 99% on the field in the dark ... nor to not push harder for a change. It was guided by confusion and fear of VP.
What needed to be revealed wasn't confidential knowledge .. Jalvis talked about it in 1988 ... we are talking about it now ... Don didn't want "the burden" ... he didn't ask for it, he just wanted to go back to NY and "move the Word".
I think there needs to be more than one perspective ... that one coming from deep inside "identity confusion" in the middle of HQ. There is nothing dishonest about that ... and there is empathy for Don's state, not blame .... he described it well ...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Juan Cruz
Thanks, Dan.
I re-read my post. It's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Vacation was great except for the love of my life winding up in the hospital with pneumonia from a boogie-board/big wave induced cracked rib. A nurse said they "get that all the time." (!)
If we were still in the Way..... well, she would have been just as sick... in just as much pain.... and maybe not had insurance....and all wondering about her believing ... hoping no one insisted on 'ministering healing' to her... (an empty sordid spectacle)
post-Way? she was heroic, not letting it spoil any one else's time. No one wondered a bit what "Father" had to do with it or should do with it.. or why she was "attacked".... or why she didn't heal faster than unbelievers... or how to spin it into a testimony to the advantages of being a grad.... (oh, how twisted it all was)
guess I'm off topic... hmmmm, well, everyone should know where to go for some counseling... and, if you've never gone.... why not? no issues? no pain? no traumas, tragedies? no need to improve communication anywhere?
there, now I'm on topic. good for me. I deserve a Klondike ice cream bar.
Peace,
Juan
"Todos serán bien, y todos serán bien, y todo tipo de cosas serán bien." Santa Juliana de Norwich
Edited by Juan CruzLink to comment
Share on other sites
anotherDan
Juan, you make another good point. We didn't really prepare people for when s h i t happens. And yet, it does.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Because it was never supposed to happen, and if it did you brought it on yourself - as I had someone explain to me when my baby was born severely ill. God was punishing me for (obviously) not abundantly sharing enough. I said I refused to worship a god who would hurt a child over a money issue.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Some good points, folks! Got me thinking about The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen. Talking about learned powerlessness on page 55:
"People learn to be or act powerless by experiencing relationships that have either prepared them to be abused, or not prepared them to not be abused."
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
I've not been able to take ex-wayers too seriously regarding counseling, especially someone who minimalizes someone else's experience. I think someone who has been in a cult and realized how bad it was could offer some insight.
Here's a great forgiveness book. I thought it would be a great addition to the CES bookstore and gave my copy to MG. I'm going to get another as it was a great book.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Thinking about this recent discussion again…and reviewing the Spiritual Abuse book…Geisha got me thinking about how natural and necessary it is to judge – whether it's for the safety & security of our children or ourselves…heck, even thinking about "surviving" day-to-day, the faculty of judgment must be constantly tasked…assessing a business deal before you sign the dotted line, or bargain shopping – what constitutes a good buy? Perhaps it's a given that folks have their own criteria for decision-making on lots of things.
Maybe we're not always aware of an extensive checklist or criteria and I'm sure our emotions add levels of complexity in our thinking. One of the most complicated "rituals" I can think of is the whole dating/choosing-a-mate-process. Especially nowadays – of course, I'm out of touch but I'm thinking how mobile and disconnected some are from their roots – it then becomes more challenging for a couple to check each other out. I'm not putting down dating services or anything – just think there's a lot more to the classic marrying-your-childhood-sweetheart thing than meets the eye. Yeah, it was just a looooong, slooooow detailed process of checking each other out.
I like the practical aspects of judgment that Geisha brought up. Therefore, it makes sense that the "atmosphere" of TWI tended to incapacitate our faculty of judgment. It was a system of predators setting up victims by getting them to turn off parts of their natural defense system. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse nails the subversive methods of The Way International – I'm tempted to think the authors plagiarized from a little known book by vp called How I did it! The learned powerlessness, shame-based relationships, focus on performance, manipulation, idolatry, preoccupation with fault & blame, obscured reality, power-posturing, unspoken rules, the "can't talk" rule, [okay that's just from pages 53 to 69, better stop there so my post ain't too long :) ] continually pounded away at our faculties – rendering folks into an homogenized group of punch-drunk followers. Yeeech!!!!
IMHO, a therapeutic relationship is one that is respectful of the individual…not violating boundaries…not ramrodding ideas into the heart…not encasing the soul in a life-sucking organizational cocoon. I speak from experience – not as a professional therapist but as a patient. And from my side of the couch, I think the professional really hits the therapeutic mark when they succeed in getting the patient to start engaging reality. I thank God for professional therapeutic relationships – and think they do a lot more for mental health than TWI ever did. Who knows – if I could borrow from the Lazarus account in John 11, maybe in a way Jesus is standing behind the professional, as he calls someone out of the cult's cave and helps them peel off the captivating layers of grave clothes.
John 11: 43, 44 NIV
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i've always wondered why it was so much easier to leave once he kicked. I must have thought he was a real MOG father for our day and time, or it just got easier to leave (peer pressure guilt) once the ball got rolling
--
TZ so sorry about your baby. and i loved what you said about God not making your dear baby sick due to a money issue (how gross)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
Tzaia, what did you enjoy about this book?
How is it different from others on forgiveness that you've read?
I'm not sure if I can do steps books--as in the 9 steps to forgiveness--sounds too much like a formula.
Could I borrow yours? I don't spend money on books like that anymore.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.