TWI VS. THERAPEUTIC RELATIONSHIPS

[geisha779]

Thinking about this recent discussion again…and reviewing the Spiritual Abuse book…Geisha got me thinking about how natural and necessary it is to judge – whether it's for the safety & security of our children or ourselves…heck, even thinking about "surviving" day-to-day, the faculty of judgment must be constantly tasked…assessing a business deal before you sign the dotted line, or bargain shopping – what constitutes a good buy? Perhaps it's a given that folks have their own criteria for decision-making on lots of things.

Maybe we're not always aware of an extensive checklist or criteria and I'm sure our emotions add levels of complexity in our thinking. One of the most complicated "rituals" I can think of is the whole dating/choosing-a-mate-process. Especially nowadays – of course, I'm out of touch but I'm thinking how mobile and disconnected some are from their roots – it then becomes more challenging for a couple to check each other out. I'm not putting down dating services or anything – just think there's a lot more to the classic marrying-your-childhood-sweetheart thing than meets the eye. Yeah, it was just a looooong, slooooow detailed process of checking each other out.

I like the practical aspects of judgment that Geisha brought up. Therefore, it makes sense that the "atmosphere" of TWI tended to incapacitate our faculty of judgment. It was a system of predators setting up victims by getting them to turn off parts of their natural defense system. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse nails the subversive methods of The Way International – I'm tempted to think the authors plagiarized from a little known book by vp called How I did it! The learned powerlessness, shame-based relationships, focus on performance, manipulation, idolatry, preoccupation with fault & blame, obscured reality, power-posturing, unspoken rules, the "can't talk" rule, [okay that's just from pages 53 to 69, better stop there so my post ain't too long :) ] continually pounded away at our faculties – rendering folks into an homogenized group of punch-drunk followers. Yeeech!!!!

IMHO, a therapeutic relationship is one that is respectful of the individual…not violating boundaries…not ramrodding ideas into the heart…not encasing the soul in a life-sucking organizational cocoon. I speak from experience – not as a professional therapist but as a patient. And from my side of the couch, I think the professional really hits the therapeutic mark when they succeed in getting the patient to start engaging reality. I thank God for professional therapeutic relationships – and think they do a lot more for mental health than TWI ever did. Who knows – if I could borrow from the Lazarus account in John 11, maybe in a way Jesus is standing behind the professional, as he calls someone out of the cult's cave and helps them peel off the captivating layers of grave clothes.

John 11: 43, 44 NIV

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

Wow--no wonder it takes so long to heal. Even after all this time I still have to revisit this stuff. It took someone contacting us for me to fall right back into remembering. That is why I came here. It is so funny to me that this stuff is STILL coming up for me. It is the boundries thing that hubby and I still struggle with.

I have kids so I make judgements--I am a mother--that kicks in, but I still struggle with defining boundries.

I see it in my husband as well. We allow too much influence even still. Although, I will say we did have a backlash the other way for awhile--we would not even take wise council from loved ones. LOL I went so far as not believing in God for awhile. That didn't last too long.

I have to really look at this again--maybe for the last time--and really consider what it was that caused me to fall for it all. Is there anything left that leaves me open? Youth doesn't explain it all away--I have a son who is my age when I got in--He is amazing. Kinda sad--we look up to him!!

That was a very nice--well thought out post. It actually stirred some real thoughts in me.

Thank-you

Edited August 4, 2008 by geisha779

[Tzaia]

Tzaia, what did you enjoy about this book?

How is it different from others on forgiveness that you've read?

I'm not sure if I can do steps books--as in the 9 steps to forgiveness--sounds too much like a formula.

Could I borrow yours? I don't spend money on books like that anymore.

I gave my copy away to MGraeser. The reason why I liked it so much was that it wasn't along the lines of simply get over it, or even necessarily restoration. It took into account anger and the fact that this isn't an overnight process.

I'll see what I can do about getting you a copy. It'll be a while as I'm taking a grueling class right now and time is pretty valuable.

[socks]

i've always wondered why it was so much easier to leave once he kicked. I must have thought he was a real MOG father for our day and time, or it just got easier to leave (peer pressure guilt) once the ball got rolling

Interesting observation, exnorski. I see in my family's lives, it was a timing and aging factor, really. We were growing up, and just as when we were kidsters, "the times they are a-changing" - always. Some thngs stayed the same, others changed. Inevitably, IMPO - many of us would have moved into different kinds of endeavors. It was already happening while he was alive, slow/fast but with purpose.

[finallyunderstand]

Proverbs 21

Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts.

--

Thank God for that. No other way to tell what somebody really meant when they did what they did.

[waterbuffalo]

I gave my copy away to MGraeser. The reason why I liked it so much was that it wasn't along the lines of simply get over it, or even necessarily restoration. It took into account anger and the fact that this isn't an overnight process.

I'll see what I can do about getting you a copy. It'll be a while as I'm taking a grueling class right now and time is pretty valuable.

That does sound good! How kind of you to offer, but I'll check at the library and see if they have it :-)

[rascal]

Really finallyunderstand? It was my impression that the exhortation to examine the fruit in a persons life, was given as a measuring stick where by we determine whether a person is *of the spirit* or *of the flesh* whether or not they had any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, and whether we should be around them for any reason.

I don`t think God meant us to be stupid about false prophets or wolves in sheep`s clothing, or he wouldn`t have given us the tools to recognize and address such people.

[excathedra]

I have a son who is my age when I got in--He is amazing. Kinda sad--we look up to him!!

not sad at all geisha !!!!! that's awesome

not to mention a credit to you guys !!!!!

[anotherDan]

I ditto excie's last comment regarding Geisha.... I also look up to my children!

Rascal, while I agree with you on some level, I mostly use the "measuring stick" against myself.

[geisha779]

not sad at all geisha !!!!! that's awesome

not to mention a credit to you guys !!!!!

Thanks for saying that. Another Dan too. It was my sons faithful witness that helped hubby and I back to God. We got out the month before he was born and he was never in TWI. Raised--basically by other Christians--as we sent him off to all the schools and camps-while we still held onto way teaching. He was so patient and faithful to God--and little did we know--he had an army praying for us. That kid moves my heart like no other.

I get NO credit. LOL

If you met him--you would just be so comfortable and you would know love right away. The most non-judgmental person I know. Truly.

Okay--since you INSIST--one story. When he was 15 all on his own, he planned a Tsunmai benefit concert--no help--got a bunch of bands together and did it up right.

He raised a ton of money. He has been planning events ever since.

He is a truly gifted musician and knows many of the "Big" Christian artists--but it never sways or changes him. He has played with some well known guys-and is just as happy playing at church.

Our kids--you gotta love em--they say this generation doesn't know anything but consumership--I beg to differ!!

Edited August 5, 2008 by geisha779

[Shellon]

Amen our kids!

My kids teach me more than ANY Bible class, psych class or anything, anytime, anywhere.

[penworks]

hi greasespotters!

many posts through the years here at the spot, have detailed the spotty "doctrines and practices" of the approved methodology of "pastoral" or "christian" counseling employed and promoted by twi and its "leadership" during its various incarnations

imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?.................................................peace.

Hello DWBH and everyone here,

I've been on vacation so am just now catching up. Boy, this is a critical topic to any discussion of twi, IMO. It is a CRITICAL area of ANY ministry.

I was in an early Corps, before DWBH, and had no focused teaching on counseling people other than using the Dale Carnegie class principles mixed with the Bible. Like when you're counseling a person, "Try to see things honestly from the other person's point of view" and tell them things like, "Live in day tight compartments" to overcome worry. To that, we'd add things like, "Think the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word." The idea was to keep people focused on positive not negative thoughts and we'd point out appropriate Bible verses for them to "renew their mind" in whatever catagory they had a problem. That, of course, fosters denial of stupendous proportions. In that scenario, problems are not really addressed and resolved, only covered over with a bandaid. I can testify to that!

When I graduated from the Corps in 1973, got married, and went to L.A. for our first assignment, I was scared to death of counseling. It was not clear how to go about handling people's problems except to encourage them to renew their mind to the Way teachings and love one another - and use those Carnegie keys. It's a shame, really. I shudder to think how many people I tried to "help" with these pitiful tools and hope I didn't do too much damage, telling people to just "get committed to the Word" or "let go and let God" so that their problems would be solved. Geez. I did all that myself and I KNOW my problems many times were not solved!

I do remember that any counseling by "outsiders" like psychologists or psychiatrists was definitely "off the Word." You couldn't forbid anyone from gaining that help, but it was labeled as "sense knowledge" and even worse, as DWBH mentioned, vpw said it had its roots in spiritualism (the devil's country), not the accuracy of The Word. So I never suggested that to anyone; we just tried to discern any devil spirits and pray for people.

One thing I was confused about was regarding the manifestations of the spirit, like discerning of devil spirits, which we were supposed to "operate" in order to help people. If, for instance, being homosexual automatically meant a person had a devil spirit of homosexuality, but the only way you (as their leader) could know whether that person had such a devil spirit was by "operating discerning of spirits" then how come by just looking at them or being around them you could tell they were gay? What do I need discerning of spirits for? My 5 senses told me the situation clear enough. I didn't need to "operate" a manifestation of the spirit. I just didn't understand how to tell the difference. I often felt weak spiritually because I was unsure. It just did not add up. BTW - I had a family member who was gay and I resented this whole teaching! I loved that person and accepted her the way she was. I could not accept that she was possessed.

The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that.

Let's all hope people get the kind of help they need when they need it...it's not always easy and sometimes it takes awhile to find the right sort of counsel. But for heaven's sake, who can honestly think Jesus or God or Buddha, or anyone spiritually minded would label people who are trying to provide mental health solutions to others as "of the devil." Let's crawl out of the dark ages...

Peace

Edited August 5, 2008 by penworks

[Watered Garden]

When we were in Charleston, there was a wonderful, bright young woman named An**la Le* who ended up getting a Ph.D. and her license in psychology. She wanted to specialize in child psychology and even offered to help out if Sprout needed some therapy.

She married a man whose name was I think Pe**y Pr**ster, and to my knowledge never practiced. Last I knew, which was many years ago, they were on staff in the bookstore or in printing or something at HQ. What a waste! She was smart, beautiful and gifted.

I personally think God gives people the talent and abilities to help people in many categories and that was hers, then she gets tricked out of it by the narrow minded, stupid, ignorant dingbats at TWI.

What a pity!

WGT

[excathedra]

truly a pity WG

thanks penworks for your wonderful post

--

geisha, anotherd, shell, i'm with you on the kid stuff sniff so thankful