Well, I certainly don`t see a lack of people taking responsibility for their own foolishness. Geemany who doesn`t feel stupid? But maybe, just maybe there were folks that were doing their very best to love God, and were naieve enough to believe that was everyone elses motive.
Maybe, part of being ....ed off at leaders isn`t because they sinned and were under greater scrutiny, but at the leader who took that which wasn`t theirs, that which they desired, in the name of the God that we were trying to love and serve.
They said God requires this, and You have to do this, and you have to do that , give this, eschew that, endure this brutality, suffer this shame and degradation in silence, jump when we say jump.... in order to love God, in order to be under his protection, in order to grow and become spiritual.
What we were required to do for God, we what was done to us in the name of God would have NEVER been tolerated from a man.
We were told that these men spoke for God, to disobey them, was to disobey God.
I am telling you, it isn`t about personal sins for me any way. Shoot, I could care less...that`s between them and God. It is when a leader seduced, broke up families, forced abortions, physically and sexually abused women and children, extorted money, and time, etc..under the guise of being GOD`S minister. I am the man of God, do this or you won`t have access to God....
Call me simplistic, or thinking in black and white, but I think that is the line of demarkation, the difference if you will between simply being *sinful* and down right evil.
I think THAT is the difference between the compassion that Jesus showed people and understanding of sin, like the woman caught in adultery, and the complete disgust with which he condemned the saducees and pharacees.
Pray for em if you want, but I hope they get whats coming to them for what they used God`s name to steal, and scriptures to facilitate and justify the sating of their lusts and perversions.
One of my favorite authors, William Tyndale has pointed out that if the truth; as it applies to turning from wickedness that is; is refused by anyone that they will get worse and worse instead of the "getting better" that God may have intended. This moral seems consistent with biblical records to me.
I'd be very interested in hearing a modern version of these things as it applies to therapy today.
how does being chosen by the great molester qualify anyone for anything? So if you got ordained by submitting to or having sex with vp .. does that mean all that had sex with vp are "qualified" to respond in this "health care thread"?
And how does that relate at all to the real health care professional world? TWI clergy are infamous for abuse ... though some may have tried to help, DESPITE their TWI training.
My non professional training would say if you are getting abused, get away from the abuser. There are even ads for hotlines to reports abuse now ... it is not always easy.
It does NOT seem to me Dot went to any of those "clergy" or TWI execs for counseling, she went to report abuse ... and get it stopped. Because clergy were submissive to vp and howard ... none were able or willing to stop anything ... instead they offered some "comfort" or just laughed her off.
Don's opening post discussed the turmoil in his life when he asked vp and howard and both refused to answer his questions. THAT is what this thread is about. Where do you go next? Don said he did not believe the first report ... but at some point he believed ...
Why would TWI clergy be especially qualified to discuss therapeutic relationships from TWI daze? The first post was about how unqualified they were.
Or why is current health care even vaguely related to what was occurring in the hotbed of TWI HQ, where threats and intimidation kept people from being released from sexual abuse and from leaving an abusive cult? Submission to the cult was the overriding problem, and that issue was not dealt with .. because the counselors had the same affliction.
There was known criminal behavior/gross abuse of power ... yet this "professional counseling" went on for six years ... with no real attempts to extract the victims or new victims from the source of damage?
These "professional counselors" were still dedicated followers of the abuser in chief ... it just doesn't add up to me ... it all seems to be just a way of keeping the victims placated enough to not leave or go to higher powers. What exactly they were counseled to do remains a mystery ... but it seems they were NOT advised to leave or confront ... at least that is not how they acted.
It seems a sham to me, to say that those that were "allegedly" being raped and abused were receiving professional therapeutic counseling the whole time. Only a counselor that would get them away from their abuser could be called competent to counsel. If the counselors still believed "The Way" was God's way, and placed that priority above the well being of "their patient", they were not really competent to counsel.
They were in a cult ... and still submissive to VP ... and still covering his tracks ... whether that was the best they could muster or not ...
(oh, well excie deleted hers, great ... well ... that's OK)
anyway ... as T-Bone said, the problem could not be fixed while people were still lost in the cult, blind leading the blind.
and as JeffSo says, it may be helpful to recognize past mistakes ... staying in and keeping abused people in the abuse was NOT therapeutic.
At least that is what appears abundantly clear to me ...
Maybe ann c has the answer ... she was a good RN ... and a good soul (with a good laugh) ... hope she is well.
Another Dan, I've a good mind to grill you on where you found that rare photo of me ….But seriously, I understand what you're saying – about we all sin, fall short of the glory of God and need forgiveness. I agree. But since I left TWI,I've thought a lot about how that was so shoved down out throats by vp – and in regards to his true character that has since come to light – I tend to think he used it as an excuse for some BIG sinning. Of course, this runs counter to his teaching in PFAL of all sin being the same. Imagine has a great thread on this:
Is all sin the same? Is the sin of telling a little white lie the same as murder? Well, speaking in general terms – sin is sin – cuz Romans 6 talks about the wages of sin is death. But to leave it at that is very simplistic, IMHO. I think some sins bring greater consequences to the sinner and some bear significant negative impact to others. The Old Testament addressed this in the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth code of justice in Exodus 21. There's enough references in Scripture that lead me to believe God doesn't view all sin the same – here's a few I thought of right off the bat: Exodus 32: 21-34 talks of Israel's idolatry as being a great sin; consequences being blotted out of God's book. Jesus said the one who delivered Him to Pilate had a greater sin than Pilate [John 19:11]. Galatians 5 talks about the deeds of the flesh [immorality, idolatry, drunkenness, sorcery, etc.] and warns that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Yes – we are all held to the same standard, as you pointed out…And that brings us back to the beginning of this thread – something occurred to me in thinking about the counseling methods promoted by vp and those of professionals – and what screams at me when comparing the two is vp's lack of any standards! Seeing how the Advanced Class agenda was his pride and joy – need an answer on something you just reach up into Daddy's Cookie Jar – I imagine many a "savvycounselor" enamored with vp's ways figured it's just a walk and presumed there'd be times where they'd have to pull an answer out of their a$$.
How TWI even changedstandards was one of my points in post # 34. Jay Adams' stuff is big on confronting sin and holding all parties to the moral standards of the Bible [good stuff IMHO] – in the ministry, it morphed into promoting the ideals of TWI…In the context of counseling - we were taught to screen people through the template of an ideal TWI follower…How often is that person coming to twig? Why isn't that person sponsoring someone?...Oh, him! He still hasn't taken PFAL – don't waste anymore time with him!
Reading Don't Worry's post of confronting vp – it hit me as a kind of a weird bizarro flip flop of I Corinthians 5 – I imagine this is how it reads in the Original Grease Text:
It is actually reported that you thrive on sexual immorality in your motor coach, and of a kind that does not occur even among unbelievers who own RVs. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief, dethroned and put out of the fellowship, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And speaking of "gnashing of teeth" – take that dog with you!
rascal, excie (though you've deleted your posts, and I don't have the benefit of your words), rhino, and tbone (and Dot... I know you're there):
There is nothing more abhorrent than those who abuse their "authority" to satisfy their personal desires. I understand that. And the last thing that I would wish to do is to "blame the victim."
I kick myself for betraying the Truth. I was far too foolish and stupid to have remained a "member" of the Way for far too long. The ideals I subscribed to were read into what Dr.W had promulgated. I apologize for my last post if it seemed to you to require of you any repentance.... I meant it only towards myself, for my own stupidity. My journey has brought me face to face with my own sin, and my need for forgiveness. It may not be the right forum in which to express that (how the Way was woefully inadequate in dealing with "counseling" when they themselves were abusive) but it will have to do.
Ultimately, the death of ungodliness is the message of the cross. My own ungodliness is my concern, not yours'. (and tbone, that photo is of my little grill).
I love you all.
edit: danhaasathhome@yahoo.com is my email address..... my GSC mailbox is full
I'm not concerned with pointing fingers ... twenty years ago is a long time, or maybe ten for some.
But for any in any sort of abusive situation ... or threatened with intimidation ... finding a shelter from the abuse would be much better than being comforted while enduring continued domination and abuse.
The Way (especially root locations) seemed more like a large abusive home, where maybe the big brother tried to protect/help the younger abused sister. Or the wife saw the sexual abuse of the daughter but could not report it or leave. So instead they do what they can for each other, while the Father continues with his reign of terror.
reminds me a little of that movie Good Will Hunting ... "Robin Williams" finally reaches Will and tells him ..."It's not your fault" for things that occurred years earlier.
It seems many are still in denial of the wrongs that occurred, others hold various levels of guilt. The sooner an individual got out, the better. Those most closely associated with the oppression/abuse were harmed the most.
I won't try to rank who was most harmed, or who tried hardest to help ... many worked very diligently at something ... maybe mostly actions of denial or rationalization. Many left or were booted out if they were "trouble". I suppose there were some attempts from the outside at interventions.
Even after VP died it took some time for things to unwind, as various "leaders" started carving each other up to make their own niche, and major fault lines were revealed ... finally. Till then it was all mostly kept hidden to most, even some right at HQ.
It occurs to me that (at least in my case) I accepted some of the bad/wrong things that happened to others becuase all I had to offer was that phrase "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing"... kind of a 'shrug it off' mentality... rather than dealing with it.
There are many reasons why many people did not act more boldly ... "it was a cult" is a decent summary.
I don't believe confidentiality is a valid one ... people went to an authority for help to stop the abuse ... even for a certified counselor, continued abuse would have to be stopped. For a corporate executive ... even more so ...
This may come up in another cult some day ... might as well get the story straight.
Actually I don't know the psychiatrist I guess .. I knew the psychologist ... also sixth corps, lived around HQ, last name started with a C ... so I figured that was who he meant ... pretty sure he was not a psychiatrist.
AT THE TIME, there was no legal requirement for reporting the abuse of underage children. Patient confidentiality in that regard in this day and age does not exist, as it did then. In fact, now you can be prosecuted for not reporting abuse. As others have pointed out, sexual abuse of adults by people of position is more of an ethical situation, whereas if people thought they would get kicked out or harassed by their employer, that would land under the sexual harassment EOE jurisdiction. At that time sexual harassment was very hard to prove; not like it is now.
If your thinking and judgment are clouded (I believe RD referred to it as "stinking thinking") and if being "crazy" is the worst thing you could be, then the tendency to minimize would be very high.
I was aware of the Scientology type stance on psychology and psychiatry, which I chose to ignore. My husband had been taking prescription drugs for OCD for years and had been called out by JAL because of it. I basically told people it was none of their business.
In retrospect, the stance on psychiatry and psychology is common in people who need services and want a way to deflect. Most seriously (and hopelessly) mentally ill people deny they have a problem.
Many, if not most cults, shun the use of social sciences because they are at odds with the values of the cult.
I get the distinct impression that DWBH and others were trying to "fix" the problem from within and thought they had a handle on it.
which makes to me, the claims of some in offshoots, that *some* problems are due to debils, which may be *simply* cast out, or removed by ministering, highly suspect.
so you "cast out the spirits". Ever think that the victim just went along with the gag?
considering.. you've started out with an otherwise normal, healthy individual, somehow convinced them they're loaded to the gills with spirits, uncleanness and compromised thinking.. I think it's anti-psychiatry..
which makes to me, the claims of some in offshoots, that *some* problems are due to debils, which may be *simply* cast out, or removed by ministering, highly suspect.
so you "cast out the spirits". Ever think that the victim just went along with the gag?
considering.. you've started out with an otherwise normal, healthy individual, somehow convinced them they're loaded to the gills with spirits, uncleanness and compromised thinking.. I think it's anti-psychiatry..
Here's a disclaimer that was added. (in the AC, I think)
Supposedly, if one did not change the conditions which allowed the spirits to enter, the spirits would come right back in.
That throws it right back on the individual. Talk about guilt----
"Well, we cast them out. It's your fault they came back in." <_<
yes I agree the power was all about what peole could do.
Like magic spells .
witchcraft really.
you better stay away from that person he will zap you really hard (for God) remember that thinking you could not be worthy of a certion person or go to their meetings or fellowship because you only took the pfal class and had not gone corps or whatever?
Im glad im old now and do not give a rats foot who you think you are anymore im here deal with it.
i like this life better.
and this thinking goes to professionals who want to analize me and i do not think they have a clue as well.
it takes a long time to become a real person and know what you know . pw was older and he had matured to the point he esteemed himself as adults do.
most of the believers were so young or damaged coming in it was easy to tell us the moon was made of green cheeses.
Another Dan, I'm not trying to give you a hard time – just trying to elaborate on some things – and put my additional 2 cents in…think I'm 12 cents into this thread now :) . I think the Matthew 7 reference in the context of your post maybe confuses the issues on this thread - or maybe it's just me. Reading the context of the "judge not" verse – I think it is most definitely applicable to counseling situations:
Matthew 7:1-5 NASB
1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
It seems the type of judging that's prohibited is hypocritical judging [going by verse 5]. Matter of fact, there are passages that suggest God expects people to make judgments: Psalm 37:30, the righteous will talk of judgment; Amos 5:14,15, hate evil, love good, establish judgment in the gate; Jeremiah 5 talks of seeking any who executes judgment and seeks the truth – which IMHO is the type of judgment condoned by God – we are to discern the truth in a matter. And most notably in John 7:24 Jesus said to judge righteous judgments.
Keying off what you were saying about folks in TWI were ill-equipped to counsel - I can relate both then and now. We've all got our own planks to yank out. But it's a lot easier now - unburdened by a blinding mindset. Jesus didn't say it couldn't be done. He said it SHOULD be done before helping someone deal with a speck in the eye. And I must say, I've received so much help here from folks that have removed the PFAL planks from their eyeballs - yeah - and watch out for splinters [splinter groups] ...All kidding aside - there's a lot of deep stuff to think about on perception from this passage - honesty & humility come in to play big time here [iMHO the TWI mindset was severely lacking in those two noble qualities].
Like Rhino was saying, I'm not into pointing fingers either…Maybe it all depends on how you look at things. What I see happening at Grease Spot for the most part is folks helping each other sort out the TWI experience. Yup – it's a judgment thing – each of us has to make the call on certain issues if we're going to make sense of this stuff. Sometimes it can get real messy. Folks may be harboring a lot of guilt, shame, anger, hopelessness…whatever. Grease Spot is a very therapeutic place. I've got a long way to go – but I don't find myself feeling as bitter, hopeless or confused about my TWI experience since I first joined Grease Spot. There's something very good that happens here – sort of a group therapy thing. I especially liked the latter part of post # 1 [pasted below] in light of what goes on here. I'm starting to appreciate the folks here a lot more – I'm trying not to be judgmental and to be more intent on helping us all sort out issues and find the truth of a matter:
...at present, i place great value and confidence in the millions of licensed, professional psychiatrists, psychologists, psychiatric nurse practitioners, licensed clinical social workers,and the various other disciplines at work in our mental health care system.........i respect them greatly because of the incredible demands and stressors their chosen fields put on them personally, as well as their loved ones.........i respect them for doing their best to help those who need their services, in spite of severe "underfunding" in their areas of expertise........i have watched them touch the untouchable, reach the unreachable, and minster to the sick and suffering........i have rejoiced at their successes, and i have sorrowed with them at their failures.........i have also witnessed them stare down some of the most vile, insanely evil, and despicable characters you'd ever imagine could remain living........and do so non-judgementally and objectively despite the personal revulsion of what they're looking at!........i never saw vic, or twi, or any of twi's "trustees" through the years ever come close to any of that!!..........imo, twi stood diametrically opposed to professional, therapeutic relationships, then and now!...........but i never thought, nor do i think today, that god and/or jesus opposes them................what do you think?.................................................peace.
...so I look into the mirror every morning and say "patient, heal thyself."
You're right, my sizzling medium rare friend. Paul wrote the Corinthians to judge amongst themselves -- and when it comes to fornication, you just can't "not judge." Nevertheless, that snip from the Sermon on the Mount gives me pause. Fornication? I judge it evil, but I will let the Lord condemn the man who does it. I'm simply not concerned with condemning another man or woman. My job is to love (even my enemy), forbear, entreat, etc. The Lord will do the condemning / forgiving with true judgment, I really (really) trust in him to do so, and things will be made right.
That said, we must protect the innocent, and ourselves.
You're right, my sizzling medium rare friend. Paul wrote the Corinthians to judge amongst themselves -- and when it comes to fornication, you just can't "not judge." Nevertheless, that snip from the Sermon on the Mount gives me pause. Fornication? I judge it evil, but I will let the Lord condemn the man who does it. I'm simply not concerned with condemning another man or woman. My job is to love (even my enemy), forbear, entreat, etc. The Lord will do the condemning / forgiving with true judgment, I really (really) trust in him to do so, and things will be made right.
That said, we must protect the innocent, and ourselves.
Yup – you've got no argument with me there, Another Brother. I love this discussion…I had a difficult time understanding the topic of judging right after I left TWI. Seems that all-or-nothing-thinking still clouded my thought process.
Matter of fact, it wasn't until I studied up on this judging thing that I felt more comfortable in sorting out my TWI experience. Not saying I've got it all figured out, nor am I consistent with putting it into practice. Honestly, it did take me awhile to grasp what you so eloquently expressed: that to condemn or forgive a soul in true judgment belongs to our sovereign Lord alone. But He expects us to judge thoughts, words, and deeds.
Which again brings me back to the ideas at the beginning of this thread – comparing TWI's counseling methods with professionals. Like I said in post # 107, TWI lacked good standards – so a counselor troubleshooting an issue with someone was often like volunteering to be a guide without a map & compass. It was hit & miss. At least, that's how I see it in retrospect.
I think most of us assumed we had the perfect standard – "the Word" – but to be honest, I usually worked at finding some Scripture to twist around in promoting the TWI lifestyle. It was God's ministry – it's all good. I think Jay Adams' stuff has a lot of good things – but as I said in post 34 – in the hands of a non-professional, it was okay for dealing with small issues.
But you know the TWI mindset – it has the amazing capacity to assume absolute knowledge. I think TWI latched onto Adams' stuff cuz it was based on the Bible. But with the Advanced Class grad syndrome, with that operating-all-nine-all-the-time-whine, we thought we had the God given authority to take somebody else's work a step further .
I liked the realism Don't Worry brought up in post # 37 – there can be bad apples in the professional fields as well. That's why I say – it pays to do some research yourself…My wife was nagging me to go to a psychiatrist for a long time…[By the way, note to professionals – certain preexisting conditions and TWI don't mix. It usually makes matters worse :( ]. I think depression runs in my family. I wrestled with it before cult world – but that Mickey Mouse operation seemed to drive me deeper into a dark oppressive pit.
I began reading up on it. A good book I found was Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns – gets into cognitive therapy big time. It clued me into some "standards" that professionals more or less go by in diagnosing depression – with the 10 cognitive distortions it covers – I was armed and ready to JUDGE my own thinking patterns. That book inspired me to finally go to a psychiatrist – and helped me to help him help me [sounds like a Stuart Smalley line ]- since I was now familiar with some of the "standard" line of thinking on depression.
This guy was so cool – after I unloaded a bunch of my regrets over TWI stuff – he said one of the most enlightening things to me "you've got to quit beating yourself up over all that." That's interesting. He made a judgment call on my erroneous thought process. I felt he was genuinely concerned about my issues but did not judge me a whacko. I think just about every session we had something to laugh about too – he has the same dry sense of humor that I have…laughter is good medicine.
Dang, sorry to post so much on this thread – but I'm so doggone passionate on this stuff – hey, it's my head we're talking about here .
I'm not so sure the "judge not, lest ye be judged" admonition relates to our duty to serve on juries...
Rocky,
I was thinking about the following argument:
Fornication? I judge it evil, but I will let the Lord condemn the man who does it. I'm simply not concerned with condemning another man or woman. My job is to love (even my enemy), forbear, entreat, etc. The Lord will do the condemning / forgiving with true judgment, I really (really) trust in him to do so, and things will be made right.
That said, we must protect the innocent, and ourselves.
No offense meant to AnotherDan, but I had to carry out this logic to the most extreme case I could think of.
We all agree that murder is evil (it's even mentioned in the ten commandments) and we would judge it as such (as we should.)
Suppose you or I am asked to sit on a jury for a murderer. Now suppose the death penalty is a possible punishment. At what point does "judgement" become "condemnation"?
That said, what exactly is condemnation and how does it differ from judgement?
I'm not really looking to turn this into a doctrinal discussion - since I'm not equipped to do so anyway. I was just thinking... :blink: :blink:
Perhaps I should let the thread just go back to its regularly scheduled programming.
Suppose you or I am asked to sit on a jury for a murderer. Now suppose the death penalty is a possible punishment. At what point does "judgement" become "condemnation"?
That said, what exactly is condemnation and how does it differ from judgement?
We all make judgments all the time ... we judge people, especially in regards to how we want to associate with those people.
In other threads these other men from other splinter groups are being trounced for their lack of sincerity ... or their adherence to doctrines that VP stole from other men ... or their past knowledge of or participation in misconduct of all sorts. Since when has the refusal to judge been the gold standard at GSC?
Based on some of my statements that were uncomfortable to some in the deleted thread ... and then grossly misquoted in the opening of this thread, I was harshly judged as "utterly shallow and compassionless" ... "willfully ignorant" ... "haughty and lacking sincere concern" and having no concept of professional, therapeutic blah blah blah .... ha ...
Talk about using this bully pulpit for personal vindication ... it happens all the time here in these hallowed greasy halls. This is more mosh pit than a place for serious professional discussions of the health care profession.
This person does not know me or much about me ... this is the internet, and I generally have low regard for "flamers", so I find the pretense of civility insincere, becasue of this and other attacks on me and others. But I do know some of the history of trunk from many other people ... bullying and sexual misconduct, threats and intimidation, were common, VP ruled.
but Don sums up part of his thinking, at least as he reviews it now.
... so i again would be in the BRC with a room full of liars, adulterers, drunks, serial sexual predators, thieving, weasel bastards!........more
confusion, isolation, depression, fear of future gloom and doom
........what about all those patients???........who's gonna be there for them........who will provide their last, desperate hope for help and healing?........who's gonna come after me and my family???..........sorry folks!.......the best i could do was to refuse to stay at hq any longer..........the best i could come up with at that time of
total confusion, doubt and fear
was........"i gotta get back out on the field, please!"........
i can't handle it here any more!........let me go back to ny
........i just wanna
move the word
"!................i never asked to know this stuff!........why am i stuck with it?.........more importantly, what can i do about it???
Try as he might have, he was in no mental state to be capable to offer sound therapeutic counseling. He just wanted to "move the Word". It seems "release from his prisons" (and his family) was top priority ... good for him. These were Don's words, but they probably describe many that needed real counseling ... they need OUT.
As for the last desperate hope for health and healing of these patients ... I'm thinking they should have left like Don ... so I still don't see how they were really top priority. It seems they needed to leave their job with the abusive boss in the intimidating cult ... first and foremost. Then perhaps go to a legit' counselor that was NOT in the cult.
So I still don't quite get all these 24 years Don spent in "professional therapeutic counseling" with these ex culties ... while he was trying to recover himself. My free counsel is to not get counseled by someone that is not professionally trained and that is probably still recovering from the state quoted above. Don was a fellow victim ... (see above quote)
We judge and discuss our views and offer opinions. T-Bone makes sense to me ... he read, got "educated", and found someone that could help think things through. And as he said earlier ... that was impossible from within the main source of the problem ... TWI.
The most important point I see is that even when going for help, T-Bone seemed in control of his direction ... getting help does not mean turning everything over to our counselor any more than we should have turned anything over to the "man of gawd".
I previously used the example of the abusive family, and we acted as though it was the big brother or mother, comforting the child or sister endure the continuing abuse of the father. But we were adults ... this was not a real family situation, it was more an employee/boss problem.
I believe removing the "patient" from the source of the problem was not done only because the "professional counselors" were in the cult ... they prioritized the "move of the Word" ... and in their mind that still meant VP was the man of God. It was "a family, together we stand" ... VP as Father in da wuhrd ... mankind's freedom seemed at stake.
None were of sound mind to counsel ... as removing a person from that abusive boss was never counseled or done. It seems that keeping the person inside "VP's household" was a priority. And of course that is much clearer now than it was then ...
Don is chief at pointing out the inadequacies of VP doctrine, as well as VP himself ... yet at that point he wanted to just go move the Word. The "root problem" was not being addressed, it was actually being reinforced. Endure the abuse for the sake of the Word ... that the ministry be not blamed ... yuch ... so clear now.
I can't judge whether I would have done more or less ... I can't imagine I would have let abuse continue, knowing how systemic the problems were ... but inside HQ world, brains were quite twisted under the heat and pressure ... which is maybe why I was not there in the first place.
But I will disagree with actions that were taken ... but given Don's paragraph above, if that is at all accurate, I can hardly blame Don. Despite his position of power, it was clear there were higher powers running the show.
You don't have to turn it into a doctrinal discussion--good old common sense prevails.
Does Hannibal Lecter get a bunch of babysitting gigs? No, why not?
Would you let the neighorhood sex offender run Sunday School?
Does a blind man drive the school bus?
We make judgements EVERYDAY about people. We are careful with our children. We teach them to be careful. Why?
There are bad people and we have to judge them according to what they do--to stay safe
Seems simple enough--We have a mind and reason--keeps us SAFE and our children safe. We have laws which carry penalties if we fail to do this with good old
common sense. Why on earth would God expect less from us than the state?
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rascal
Well, I certainly don`t see a lack of people taking responsibility for their own foolishness. Geemany who doesn`t feel stupid? But maybe, just maybe there were folks that were doing their very best to love God, and were naieve enough to believe that was everyone elses motive.
Maybe, part of being ....ed off at leaders isn`t because they sinned and were under greater scrutiny, but at the leader who took that which wasn`t theirs, that which they desired, in the name of the God that we were trying to love and serve.
They said God requires this, and You have to do this, and you have to do that , give this, eschew that, endure this brutality, suffer this shame and degradation in silence, jump when we say jump.... in order to love God, in order to be under his protection, in order to grow and become spiritual.
What we were required to do for God, we what was done to us in the name of God would have NEVER been tolerated from a man.
We were told that these men spoke for God, to disobey them, was to disobey God.
I am telling you, it isn`t about personal sins for me any way. Shoot, I could care less...that`s between them and God. It is when a leader seduced, broke up families, forced abortions, physically and sexually abused women and children, extorted money, and time, etc..under the guise of being GOD`S minister. I am the man of God, do this or you won`t have access to God....
Call me simplistic, or thinking in black and white, but I think that is the line of demarkation, the difference if you will between simply being *sinful* and down right evil.
I think THAT is the difference between the compassion that Jesus showed people and understanding of sin, like the woman caught in adultery, and the complete disgust with which he condemned the saducees and pharacees.
Pray for em if you want, but I hope they get whats coming to them for what they used God`s name to steal, and scriptures to facilitate and justify the sating of their lusts and perversions.
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JeffSjo
One of my favorite authors, William Tyndale has pointed out that if the truth; as it applies to turning from wickedness that is; is refused by anyone that they will get worse and worse instead of the "getting better" that God may have intended. This moral seems consistent with biblical records to me.
I'd be very interested in hearing a modern version of these things as it applies to therapy today.
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excathedra
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excathedra
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rhino
yeah ... what excie said ...
how does being chosen by the great molester qualify anyone for anything? So if you got ordained by submitting to or having sex with vp .. does that mean all that had sex with vp are "qualified" to respond in this "health care thread"?
And how does that relate at all to the real health care professional world? TWI clergy are infamous for abuse ... though some may have tried to help, DESPITE their TWI training.
My non professional training would say if you are getting abused, get away from the abuser. There are even ads for hotlines to reports abuse now ... it is not always easy.
It does NOT seem to me Dot went to any of those "clergy" or TWI execs for counseling, she went to report abuse ... and get it stopped. Because clergy were submissive to vp and howard ... none were able or willing to stop anything ... instead they offered some "comfort" or just laughed her off.
Don's opening post discussed the turmoil in his life when he asked vp and howard and both refused to answer his questions. THAT is what this thread is about. Where do you go next? Don said he did not believe the first report ... but at some point he believed ...
Why would TWI clergy be especially qualified to discuss therapeutic relationships from TWI daze? The first post was about how unqualified they were.
Or why is current health care even vaguely related to what was occurring in the hotbed of TWI HQ, where threats and intimidation kept people from being released from sexual abuse and from leaving an abusive cult? Submission to the cult was the overriding problem, and that issue was not dealt with .. because the counselors had the same affliction.
There was known criminal behavior/gross abuse of power ... yet this "professional counseling" went on for six years ... with no real attempts to extract the victims or new victims from the source of damage?
These "professional counselors" were still dedicated followers of the abuser in chief ... it just doesn't add up to me ... it all seems to be just a way of keeping the victims placated enough to not leave or go to higher powers. What exactly they were counseled to do remains a mystery ... but it seems they were NOT advised to leave or confront ... at least that is not how they acted.
It seems a sham to me, to say that those that were "allegedly" being raped and abused were receiving professional therapeutic counseling the whole time. Only a counselor that would get them away from their abuser could be called competent to counsel. If the counselors still believed "The Way" was God's way, and placed that priority above the well being of "their patient", they were not really competent to counsel.
They were in a cult ... and still submissive to VP ... and still covering his tracks ... whether that was the best they could muster or not ...
(oh, well excie deleted hers, great ... well ... that's OK)
anyway ... as T-Bone said, the problem could not be fixed while people were still lost in the cult, blind leading the blind.
and as JeffSo says, it may be helpful to recognize past mistakes ... staying in and keeping abused people in the abuse was NOT therapeutic.
At least that is what appears abundantly clear to me ...
Maybe ann c has the answer ... she was a good RN ... and a good soul (with a good laugh) ... hope she is well.
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T-Bone
Another Dan, I've a good mind to grill you on where you found that rare photo of me
….But seriously, I understand what you're saying – about we all sin, fall short of the glory of God and need forgiveness. I agree. But since I left TWI, I've thought a lot about how that was so shoved down out throats by vp – and in regards to his true character that has since come to light – I tend to think he used it as an excuse for some BIG sinning. Of course, this runs counter to his teaching in PFAL of all sin being the same. Imagine has a great thread on this:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=423433
Is all sin the same? Is the sin of telling a little white lie the same as murder? Well, speaking in general terms – sin is sin – cuz Romans 6 talks about the wages of sin is death. But to leave it at that is very simplistic, IMHO. I think some sins bring greater consequences to the sinner and some bear significant negative impact to others. The Old Testament addressed this in the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth code of justice in Exodus 21. There's enough references in Scripture that lead me to believe God doesn't view all sin the same – here's a few I thought of right off the bat: Exodus 32: 21-34 talks of Israel's idolatry as being a great sin; consequences being blotted out of God's book. Jesus said the one who delivered Him to Pilate had a greater sin than Pilate [John 19:11]. Galatians 5 talks about the deeds of the flesh [immorality, idolatry, drunkenness, sorcery, etc.] and warns that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Yes – we are all held to the same standard, as you pointed out…And that brings us back to the beginning of this thread – something occurred to me in thinking about the counseling methods promoted by vp and those of professionals – and what screams at me when comparing the two is vp's lack of any standards! Seeing how the Advanced Class agenda was his pride and joy – need an answer on something you just reach up into Daddy's Cookie Jar – I imagine many a "savvy counselor" enamored with vp's ways figured it's just a walk and presumed there'd be times where they'd have to pull an answer out of their a$$.
How TWI even changed standards was one of my points in post # 34. Jay Adams' stuff is big on confronting sin and holding all parties to the moral standards of the Bible [good stuff IMHO] – in the ministry, it morphed into promoting the ideals of TWI…In the context of counseling - we were taught to screen people through the template of an ideal TWI follower…How often is that person coming to twig? Why isn't that person sponsoring someone?...Oh, him! He still hasn't taken PFAL – don't waste anymore time with him!
Reading Don't Worry's post of confronting vp – it hit me as a kind of a weird bizarro flip flop of I Corinthians 5 – I imagine this is how it reads in the Original Grease Text:
It is actually reported that you thrive on sexual immorality in your motor coach, and of a kind that does not occur even among unbelievers who own RVs. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief, dethroned and put out of the fellowship, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And speaking of "gnashing of teeth" – take that dog with you!
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anotherDan
rascal, excie (though you've deleted your posts, and I don't have the benefit of your words), rhino, and tbone (and Dot... I know you're there):
There is nothing more abhorrent than those who abuse their "authority" to satisfy their personal desires. I understand that. And the last thing that I would wish to do is to "blame the victim."
I kick myself for betraying the Truth. I was far too foolish and stupid to have remained a "member" of the Way for far too long. The ideals I subscribed to were read into what Dr.W had promulgated. I apologize for my last post if it seemed to you to require of you any repentance.... I meant it only towards myself, for my own stupidity. My journey has brought me face to face with my own sin, and my need for forgiveness. It may not be the right forum in which to express that (how the Way was woefully inadequate in dealing with "counseling" when they themselves were abusive) but it will have to do.
Ultimately, the death of ungodliness is the message of the cross. My own ungodliness is my concern, not yours'. (and tbone, that photo is of my little grill).
I love you all.
edit: danhaasathhome@yahoo.com is my email address..... my GSC mailbox is full
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dmiller
Hey there Another Dan --- Don't you be kicking yourself, eh?? :)
Life goes on, we live and learn, take lumps sometimes, and;
water flows under the bridge to never return, and stuff happens.
Like the water under the bridge, we all started *upstream*,
and hit a few *rough spots* in our journey's.
Make the most of where you are *flowing* now. :)
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rhino
I'm not concerned with pointing fingers ... twenty years ago is a long time, or maybe ten for some.
But for any in any sort of abusive situation ... or threatened with intimidation ... finding a shelter from the abuse would be much better than being comforted while enduring continued domination and abuse.
The Way (especially root locations) seemed more like a large abusive home, where maybe the big brother tried to protect/help the younger abused sister. Or the wife saw the sexual abuse of the daughter but could not report it or leave. So instead they do what they can for each other, while the Father continues with his reign of terror.
reminds me a little of that movie Good Will Hunting ... "Robin Williams" finally reaches Will and tells him ..."It's not your fault" for things that occurred years earlier.
It seems many are still in denial of the wrongs that occurred, others hold various levels of guilt. The sooner an individual got out, the better. Those most closely associated with the oppression/abuse were harmed the most.
I won't try to rank who was most harmed, or who tried hardest to help ... many worked very diligently at something ... maybe mostly actions of denial or rationalization. Many left or were booted out if they were "trouble". I suppose there were some attempts from the outside at interventions.
Even after VP died it took some time for things to unwind, as various "leaders" started carving each other up to make their own niche, and major fault lines were revealed ... finally. Till then it was all mostly kept hidden to most, even some right at HQ.
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anotherDan
mr miller: thanks
you're a good man
rhino: I think you're right
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Tom Strange
It occurs to me that (at least in my case) I accepted some of the bad/wrong things that happened to others becuase all I had to offer was that phrase "it's the stones in the brook that make it sing"... kind of a 'shrug it off' mentality... rather than dealing with it.
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Tzaia
AT THE TIME, there was no legal requirement for reporting the abuse of underage children. Patient confidentiality in that regard in this day and age does not exist, as it did then. In fact, now you can be prosecuted for not reporting abuse. As others have pointed out, sexual abuse of adults by people of position is more of an ethical situation, whereas if people thought they would get kicked out or harassed by their employer, that would land under the sexual harassment EOE jurisdiction. At that time sexual harassment was very hard to prove; not like it is now.
If your thinking and judgment are clouded (I believe RD referred to it as "stinking thinking") and if being "crazy" is the worst thing you could be, then the tendency to minimize would be very high.
I was aware of the Scientology type stance on psychology and psychiatry, which I chose to ignore. My husband had been taking prescription drugs for OCD for years and had been called out by JAL because of it. I basically told people it was none of their business.
In retrospect, the stance on psychiatry and psychology is common in people who need services and want a way to deflect. Most seriously (and hopelessly) mentally ill people deny they have a problem.
Many, if not most cults, shun the use of social sciences because they are at odds with the values of the cult.
I get the distinct impression that DWBH and others were trying to "fix" the problem from within and thought they had a handle on it.
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Ham
which makes to me, the claims of some in offshoots, that *some* problems are due to debils, which may be *simply* cast out, or removed by ministering, highly suspect.
so you "cast out the spirits". Ever think that the victim just went along with the gag?
considering.. you've started out with an otherwise normal, healthy individual, somehow convinced them they're loaded to the gills with spirits, uncleanness and compromised thinking.. I think it's anti-psychiatry..
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waysider
Here's a disclaimer that was added. (in the AC, I think)
Supposedly, if one did not change the conditions which allowed the spirits to enter, the spirits would come right back in.
That throws it right back on the individual. Talk about guilt----
"Well, we cast them out. It's your fault they came back in." <_<
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pond
yes I agree the power was all about what peole could do.
Like magic spells .
witchcraft really.
you better stay away from that person he will zap you really hard (for God) remember that thinking you could not be worthy of a certion person or go to their meetings or fellowship because you only took the pfal class and had not gone corps or whatever?
Im glad im old now and do not give a rats foot who you think you are anymore im here deal with it.
i like this life better.
and this thinking goes to professionals who want to analize me and i do not think they have a clue as well.
it takes a long time to become a real person and know what you know . pw was older and he had matured to the point he esteemed himself as adults do.
most of the believers were so young or damaged coming in it was easy to tell us the moon was made of green cheeses.
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T-Bone
Another Dan, I'm not trying to give you a hard time – just trying to elaborate on some things – and put my additional 2 cents in…think I'm 12 cents into this thread now :) . I think the Matthew 7 reference in the context of your post maybe confuses the issues on this thread - or maybe it's just me. Reading the context of the "judge not" verse – I think it is most definitely applicable to counseling situations:
Matthew 7:1-5 NASB
1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
It seems the type of judging that's prohibited is hypocritical judging [going by verse 5]. Matter of fact, there are passages that suggest God expects people to make judgments: Psalm 37:30, the righteous will talk of judgment; Amos 5:14,15, hate evil, love good, establish judgment in the gate; Jeremiah 5 talks of seeking any who executes judgment and seeks the truth – which IMHO is the type of judgment condoned by God – we are to discern the truth in a matter. And most notably in John 7:24 Jesus said to judge righteous judgments.
Keying off what you were saying about folks in TWI were ill-equipped to counsel - I can relate both then and now. We've all got our own planks to yank out. But it's a lot easier now - unburdened by a blinding mindset. Jesus didn't say it couldn't be done. He said it SHOULD be done before helping someone deal with a speck in the eye. And I must say, I've received so much help here from folks that have removed the PFAL planks from their eyeballs - yeah - and watch out for splinters [splinter groups]
...All kidding aside - there's a lot of deep stuff to think about on perception from this passage - honesty & humility come in to play big time here [iMHO the TWI mindset was severely lacking in those two noble qualities].
Like Rhino was saying, I'm not into pointing fingers either…Maybe it all depends on how you look at things. What I see happening at Grease Spot for the most part is folks helping each other sort out the TWI experience. Yup – it's a judgment thing – each of us has to make the call on certain issues if we're going to make sense of this stuff. Sometimes it can get real messy. Folks may be harboring a lot of guilt, shame, anger, hopelessness…whatever. Grease Spot is a very therapeutic place. I've got a long way to go – but I don't find myself feeling as bitter, hopeless or confused about my TWI experience since I first joined Grease Spot. There's something very good that happens here – sort of a group therapy thing. I especially liked the latter part of post # 1 [pasted below] in light of what goes on here. I'm starting to appreciate the folks here a lot more – I'm trying not to be judgmental and to be more intent on helping us all sort out issues and find the truth of a matter:
...so I look into the mirror every morning and say "patient, heal thyself."
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skyrider
Good stuff there.....T-Bone.
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anotherDan
You're right, my sizzling medium rare friend. Paul wrote the Corinthians to judge amongst themselves -- and when it comes to fornication, you just can't "not judge." Nevertheless, that snip from the Sermon on the Mount gives me pause. Fornication? I judge it evil, but I will let the Lord condemn the man who does it. I'm simply not concerned with condemning another man or woman. My job is to love (even my enemy), forbear, entreat, etc. The Lord will do the condemning / forgiving with true judgment, I really (really) trust in him to do so, and things will be made right.
That said, we must protect the innocent, and ourselves.
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doojable
Just a thought:
If you carry out the "I won't condemn" thing too far you have a problem.
What about sitting on a jury for a murderer?
I'm more willing to say that I get to use my brain and common sense and assess people and situations as they arise.
Will I always get it right? Nope.
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T-Bone
Yup – you've got no argument with me there, Another Brother. I love this discussion…I had a difficult time understanding the topic of judging right after I left TWI. Seems that all-or-nothing-thinking still clouded my thought process.
Matter of fact, it wasn't until I studied up on this judging thing that I felt more comfortable in sorting out my TWI experience. Not saying I've got it all figured out, nor am I consistent with putting it into practice. Honestly, it did take me awhile to grasp what you so eloquently expressed: that to condemn or forgive a soul in true judgment belongs to our sovereign Lord alone. But He expects us to judge thoughts, words, and deeds.
Which again brings me back to the ideas at the beginning of this thread – comparing TWI's counseling methods with professionals. Like I said in post # 107, TWI lacked good standards – so a counselor troubleshooting an issue with someone was often like volunteering to be a guide without a map & compass. It was hit & miss. At least, that's how I see it in retrospect.
I think most of us assumed we had the perfect standard – "the Word" – but to be honest, I usually worked at finding some Scripture to twist around in promoting the TWI lifestyle. It was God's ministry – it's all good. I think Jay Adams' stuff has a lot of good things – but as I said in post 34 – in the hands of a non-professional, it was okay for dealing with small issues.
But you know the TWI mindset – it has the amazing capacity to assume absolute knowledge. I think TWI latched onto Adams' stuff cuz it was based on the Bible. But with the Advanced Class grad syndrome, with that operating-all-nine-all-the-time-whine, we thought we had the God given authority to take somebody else's work a step further
.
I liked the realism Don't Worry brought up in post # 37 – there can be bad apples in the professional fields as well. That's why I say – it pays to do some research yourself…My wife was nagging me to go to a psychiatrist for a long time…[By the way, note to professionals – certain preexisting conditions and TWI don't mix. It usually makes matters worse :( ]. I think depression runs in my family. I wrestled with it before cult world – but that Mickey Mouse operation seemed to drive me deeper into a dark oppressive pit.
I began reading up on it. A good book I found was Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns – gets into cognitive therapy big time. It clued me into some "standards" that professionals more or less go by in diagnosing depression – with the 10 cognitive distortions it covers – I was armed and ready to JUDGE my own thinking patterns. That book inspired me to finally go to a psychiatrist – and helped me to help him help me [sounds like a Stuart Smalley line
]- since I was now familiar with some of the "standard" line of thinking on depression.
This guy was so cool – after I unloaded a bunch of my regrets over TWI stuff – he said one of the most enlightening things to me "you've got to quit beating yourself up over all that." That's interesting. He made a judgment call on my erroneous thought process. I felt he was genuinely concerned about my issues but did not judge me a whacko. I think just about every session we had something to laugh about too – he has the same dry sense of humor that I have…laughter is good medicine.
Dang, sorry to post so much on this thread – but I'm so doggone passionate on this stuff – hey, it's my head we're talking about here
.
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Rocky
I'm not so sure the "judge not, lest ye be judged" admonition relates to our duty to serve on juries...
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doojable
Rocky,
I was thinking about the following argument:
No offense meant to AnotherDan, but I had to carry out this logic to the most extreme case I could think of.
We all agree that murder is evil (it's even mentioned in the ten commandments) and we would judge it as such (as we should.)
Suppose you or I am asked to sit on a jury for a murderer. Now suppose the death penalty is a possible punishment. At what point does "judgement" become "condemnation"?
That said, what exactly is condemnation and how does it differ from judgement?
I'm not really looking to turn this into a doctrinal discussion - since I'm not equipped to do so anyway. I was just thinking... :blink: :blink:
Perhaps I should let the thread just go back to its regularly scheduled programming.
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rhino
We all make judgments all the time ... we judge people, especially in regards to how we want to associate with those people.
In other threads these other men from other splinter groups are being trounced for their lack of sincerity ... or their adherence to doctrines that VP stole from other men ... or their past knowledge of or participation in misconduct of all sorts. Since when has the refusal to judge been the gold standard at GSC?
Based on some of my statements that were uncomfortable to some in the deleted thread ... and then grossly misquoted in the opening of this thread, I was harshly judged as "utterly shallow and compassionless" ... "willfully ignorant" ... "haughty and lacking sincere concern" and having no concept of professional, therapeutic blah blah blah .... ha ...
Talk about using this bully pulpit for personal vindication ... it happens all the time here in these hallowed greasy halls. This is more mosh pit than a place for serious professional discussions of the health care profession.
This person does not know me or much about me ... this is the internet, and I generally have low regard for "flamers", so I find the pretense of civility insincere, becasue of this and other attacks on me and others. But I do know some of the history of trunk from many other people ... bullying and sexual misconduct, threats and intimidation, were common, VP ruled.
but Don sums up part of his thinking, at least as he reviews it now.
Try as he might have, he was in no mental state to be capable to offer sound therapeutic counseling. He just wanted to "move the Word". It seems "release from his prisons" (and his family) was top priority ... good for him. These were Don's words, but they probably describe many that needed real counseling ... they need OUT.
As for the last desperate hope for health and healing of these patients ... I'm thinking they should have left like Don ... so I still don't see how they were really top priority. It seems they needed to leave their job with the abusive boss in the intimidating cult ... first and foremost. Then perhaps go to a legit' counselor that was NOT in the cult.
So I still don't quite get all these 24 years Don spent in "professional therapeutic counseling" with these ex culties ... while he was trying to recover himself. My free counsel is to not get counseled by someone that is not professionally trained and that is probably still recovering from the state quoted above. Don was a fellow victim ... (see above quote)
We judge and discuss our views and offer opinions. T-Bone makes sense to me ... he read, got "educated", and found someone that could help think things through. And as he said earlier ... that was impossible from within the main source of the problem ... TWI.
The most important point I see is that even when going for help, T-Bone seemed in control of his direction ... getting help does not mean turning everything over to our counselor any more than we should have turned anything over to the "man of gawd".
I previously used the example of the abusive family, and we acted as though it was the big brother or mother, comforting the child or sister endure the continuing abuse of the father. But we were adults ... this was not a real family situation, it was more an employee/boss problem.
I believe removing the "patient" from the source of the problem was not done only because the "professional counselors" were in the cult ... they prioritized the "move of the Word" ... and in their mind that still meant VP was the man of God. It was "a family, together we stand" ... VP as Father in da wuhrd ... mankind's freedom seemed at stake.
None were of sound mind to counsel ... as removing a person from that abusive boss was never counseled or done. It seems that keeping the person inside "VP's household" was a priority. And of course that is much clearer now than it was then ...
Don is chief at pointing out the inadequacies of VP doctrine, as well as VP himself ... yet at that point he wanted to just go move the Word. The "root problem" was not being addressed, it was actually being reinforced. Endure the abuse for the sake of the Word ... that the ministry be not blamed ... yuch ... so clear now.
I can't judge whether I would have done more or less ... I can't imagine I would have let abuse continue, knowing how systemic the problems were ... but inside HQ world, brains were quite twisted under the heat and pressure ... which is maybe why I was not there in the first place.
But I will disagree with actions that were taken ... but given Don's paragraph above, if that is at all accurate, I can hardly blame Don. Despite his position of power, it was clear there were higher powers running the show.
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geisha779
Hi,
You don't have to turn it into a doctrinal discussion--good old common sense prevails.
Does Hannibal Lecter get a bunch of babysitting gigs? No, why not?
Would you let the neighorhood sex offender run Sunday School?
Does a blind man drive the school bus?
We make judgements EVERYDAY about people. We are careful with our children. We teach them to be careful. Why?
There are bad people and we have to judge them according to what they do--to stay safe
Seems simple enough--We have a mind and reason--keeps us SAFE and our children safe. We have laws which carry penalties if we fail to do this with good old
common sense. Why on earth would God expect less from us than the state?
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