.... trying to figure out what in the hell we had all just spent the previous 16 years of our lives "believing and doing"...........what were you doing during this time rhino????
It is good to hear that you had encouraged many of those people to go to authorities ... too bad none of them would. With all those lined up to tell their story, it would seem there was a willingness by many to get over it. Since you had stayed to counsel these many that you had developed this relationship with, were any counseled to get the heck out of Dodge?
Without hearing a peep for a decade from HQ central about the years of abuse and sexcapades that were practiced at TWI HQ .... (all kept quiet and dealt with in house) .... I decided on doctrinal issues and POP info and some more, to leave TWI cold turkey. I told all those in my fellowship and others that I knew ... we all left ... based on doctrinal tyranny mostly.
With knowledge of heinous criminal acts, certainly some word could have been gotten out to those on the field. "Quit sending money and people ... starve the beast". And all those victims ... weren't they at least counseled to run far far away? Sorry but it just doesn't add up to me, except that the counselors and all were "still in the cult". So "out of cult" thinking was not allowed.
Since the pitchforks are out ... I don't know I need to say much more ... the confidentiality rules you stated are as I stated ... and as I said, they could at least have been encouraged to go to authorities. Apparently you did that ... that is a lot of victims ... not one wanted to prosecute individually or as a group ... too bad.
I never was accusing you Don, but while you would be breaking a law to reveal something against their will, you'd also be breaking the law if there were children or elderly or mentally incompetent in danger, and you did not "report it" ... if you were acting in the counselor capacity. So I guess at least there were no children involved.
Were people counseled to leave HQ ... leave TWI ... "there is rampant unrepentant abuse occurring here" .... ? All this professional counseling going on, but victims were continuing in TWI .... with all its villains. I never claimed to be any spiritual guru, but getting people away from TWI, out of the corpse, out of TWI would have seemed obvious with all that knowledge ...
ALL "my people" left immediately ... with far less knowledge than was available at HQ central ... so sorry if it just doesn't add up that all these professional therapeutic relationships were ongoing, with people not getting out ... staying at HQ in the bowels of the beast, where counseling and abuse could continue.
The first response I heard about why more was not done was maybe the most honest "I was in a cult".
It's always so easy to sit back in one's comfiest chair and pontificate about how the doer of deeds should have done better, isn't it?
And, as the saying goes, when you're up to your azz in alligators, it's sometimes a little difficult to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp...
It's always so easy to sit back in one's comfiest chair and pontificate about how the doer of deeds should have done better, isn't it?
And, as the saying goes, when you're up to your azz in alligators, it's sometimes a little difficult to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp...
NP - however in after thought I realized there is also an exception in CA...hangs head for not being thorough (or was that throughly?). There are only two court approved reasons for divorce in CA; irreconcilable differences and incurable insanity (although it would seem to me that incurable insanity falls under irreconcilable differences). My attorney tried to explain the difference. I think, but do NOT recall exactly, that the incurable insanity argument is in the case where one of the spouses has already been diagnosed as such and hence there is no mediation. Not sure how pertinent that is to this thread but wanted to make sure I was as complete as possible...comes with being a scientist I suppose.
Holy crap...I just now read all five pages of this thread...and it took me a while because you guys type slow.
DWBH...Your opening post was one of the most revealing and informative posts that I have ever read on the GSC...
Some great responses...those of us who lived through this and understand what really happened are dumbstruck by the brutal disregard for people's lives, the self serving hedonistic ventures of Vic and his henchmen, and the truth of what these con men did. I'm thankful for those who escaped with little damage to their lives...but unfortunately, there were far too many who suffered greatly.
Any decent, compassionate, caring person has to ask...what kind of monster was Victor Paul Wierwille?...did you say grand daughter?...this guy was living in the septic tank of human morality.
I think hindsight is 20/20, in the instances of confronting the mogs and going further.
I also think the organization, vpw and the others involved in the sex practices were ruthless in their dealings with the victims whenever they were confronted with being outed.
I think vic earned his chops in that regard way before twi when he got his secretary in Van Wert pregnant. I don't believe for a minute that those leaders in charge of twi just became so viscous overnight in the '80's and '90's, I think they learned it from vic and coward long before that, the ruthlessness, the expendability of people, the purposeful usurary of women for sexual gratification, the humiliation and the disparagement of the individual, the playing of the "possesed" card, the supression of any stories leaking out, the refusal to answer direct questions concerning any victim, the refusal to talk to the victims if confrontational, the use of armed thugs, the use of rape drugs, the use of attack dogs to put the teeth behind their words, the protection of the ministry's and leader's image-the ministry be not blamed at all costs, the organization and the leaders being the most important and not the individual, and the swapping of love of God for corporate integrity. I believe all these things were born of VPW first and foremost, and any and all were used against the individual if anyone got out of controll and became confrontational or liable to talk.
I believe this is exactly why no one went to the cops, why vic needed body guards and dogs, why some were driven to committing suicide in dispair, and why no single victim's protests ever saw the light of day.
I also think most still believed the ministry was from and of God, that they still believed it was a ministry of deliverance because they personally had been delivered in their beginning years in the ministry, believed God is what drew them to the ministry in the first place and therefore were not after the destruction of twi or those in charge. Rather, I think those involved wanted to help fix it or just leave it and not wage war.
Back then, I don't think everyone had really put 2 and 2 together and determined the Word we were all taught and believed was so twisted and convoluted, and from a plagerized cocktail of sources. That came much later, a victims head would have been swimming just from the betrayal of vp, et al, especially since those of us in the Corpse all thought of the ministry as furthering our purpose in life, and the vehicle for word over the world, etc., where else could you go, what else could ever measure up to that cult status?
I also think that most female victims would internalize their feelings and blame themselves as a majority of sex victims do, the need to set it right and lash out at the purpetrator might be a male thing to do, but not necesarily what females do as victims of something so intimate and damaging to themselves.
Hey Groucho, I know for a fact that king okie did the same as vic - to teenage daughters. So gross and disgusting, the guy should be roasted over a pit.
during my in-rez corps "training", the only "pastoral" responsibilities vic taught us way corps as a group, were how to perform weddings and funerals........the concept of "pastoral" or "christian" counseling was never introduced or even mentioned! .......the only kind of "counseling" we were ever exposed to was via the advanced class or the several advanced class "specials" which were taught at "summer school" in 1974, 1975, and 1976, on "word of knowledge", "word of wisdom", and "discerning of spirits", respectively!.......and, as the quote recounted above demonstrates, vic regarded the fields of psychiatry and psychology with utter disdain and condescending disgust.......teaching basically, that both fields were "of the devil", and not to be relied upon to provide anything of benefit to "god's people"!
Just to clarify our credentials, as Don has stated, wc and clergy were not professional healthcare practitioners nor counselors. The above paragraph pretty much sums it up as far as our "training" or "credentials" go.
For example, I can hang out my shingle, claim to be an attorney, and "counsel" clients, if I can get them and even charge them. But, if one of my clients says he or she is going to kill someone and I don't inform the authorities, I can't be disbarred because I'm not an attorney!
Thanks for the topic, Don.
I never knew you and your family went through that--under house arrest. For gawd's sake. If I'd only known, I'd have been outta there b4 '89...I am sooooo sorry you all went through that.
That is so sad...so sick. I remember how staunchly I defended the ministry and these guys. How offended I was when anyone tried to tell me that the ministry was a cult...or that vp was anything other than the most kindest, generous, noble, gallant hero in the world...
God what a fool I was. Not only was he fornicating his brains out, committing adultery...but pushing perversions on mothers daughters and grand daughters...it was so much worse than anyone...even the most vehement of twi attackers ever realized :(
For example, I can hang out my shingle, claim to be an attorney, and "counsel" clients, if I can get them and even charge them. But, if one of my clients says he or she is going to kill someone and I don't inform the authorities, I can't be disbarred because I'm not an attorney!
You might be in trouble for claiming to be an attorney ... and though not disbarred, there may be a requirement to inform authorities to prevent a crime, even if you are not an attorney. I'm not sure ... it would probably not be prosecuted, unless you were complicit somehow ... I'm guessing.
But I don't know what shingle Don or others that were counseling hung out.
What appears to me is many went to a TWI executive with claims of serious abuse. VP was confronted ... based on some of that knowledge. I think Dot listed the numerous TWI employees she went to ... at the time, those that did nothing maybe were culpable, I don't know. Those that actively helped hide her story or intimidate her from telling, were more guilty.
But it is the action of a TWI executive that I wonder about ... apparently Don was not given knowledge in that capacity, but as a counselor/minister. I think the counselor rules also apply to a minister ... if there is an expectation of privacy. So while he might encourage them to go forward .. he could not without their agreement.
But if they went to a TWI executive to get the actions stopped, that seems a different situation to me. So who were the counselors and ministers and who were the executives ... some were both ... but some executives deflected witnesses. Some witnesses were sent out of TWI town on a rail ... which was a very coordinated TWI org action.
Also was it possible to generally inform the 20,000 or so "on the field" without giving specifics ... without breaking any trust? That probably would have required an attorney outside of TWI. For years people were still sending money and people .. with no knowledge from top TWI execs of the high level of corruption.
But I believe that the priority was still to keep it quiet, because HQ was still sacred ground ... it was considered better to try to keep the ministry intact ... right up through the yak twig ... after which all those therapeutic relationships abruptly ended for any that left. The rest of TWI carried on with their "adultery is okey dokey" doctrine ...
I'm glad it wasn't me in that situation ... but it is good to review. Threats and intimidation by power figures happen all the time in the real world ... but the cult think ... "keeping the living Word alive" head trip is not involved ... though there are all kinds of head trips.
Do I understand you correctly that you consider going to Dr. about the problems a mistake? I think it was honest and brave, maybe even necessary. (TWO CENTS) What would have better in your opinion?
Again let me say thank you. I remember thinking that the yak twig was our best hope. That is what I was told. But it is very sad that the truth and integrity was undercut in such a nasty fashion. And over such nasty business.
(edited for spelling, and a little was added too.)
It's not about sexual abuse, but it is about abuse and neglect of someone obviously in need of some professional help.
A couple of snips:
I was going off into a psychotic episode (because I'm bipolar but I wasn't diagnosed at the time). I had had episodes before that went undiagnosed and untreated but since I was in the Word now, my mind was healed, right?
So I bacame a total lunatic and by the time we got to Amarillo, Barq took me to the bus depot, told me the guy behind the counter "was my mother" and put me on a bus to Rochester, telling me there would be people to meet me there. Except, my parents were in Del Mar, CA. In my confusion, I thought they were in Rochester, so off I went on a bus to Rochester.
One of my most vivid memories of that 1st year in 8th corps residence is of this first few weeks at the beginning of the year when we were all falling asleep all the time. One time in Kenyon Hall, somebody was teaching, one of those founding people, (the guy who made wine in his cellar ? George Jess? maybe) but NOBODY could stay awake. People were just nodding off everywhere. He was going on about Abraham went here, and then he went there.... and off I went to Nod.
Gexxald Wxxx got SO MAD that his solution was to make us all sleep less and work and exercise more. I have NEVER been more TIRED in my entire life than during that week when we were being PUNISHED for falling asleep. Oh, and we had to get up early and meet in the circle drive and do exercises, including these things called "rabbits." Somebody showed up in a rabbit costume later on while we were doing those things. ha ha ha thanks for the laugh.
I was up in the Abassador room with a couple other people from my twig and we were moving stuff around and I laid down on the floor and was TOTALLY wiped out. The MOST tired I have ever been, EVER.
Ah but we must PUSH OURSELVES through our BREAKING POINT. And there was the "stride." We were supposed to reach that "stride" as a Corps and were we there yet??? No not yet, gotta get to that STRIDE..
I found Rinse and I started telling him everything that I knew God had showed me. I was manic so I was talking really fast. For some reason I felt it was Rinse I was supposed to tell all this to. He told me to sit on a nearby golf cart and wait for him there. So I sat there on this golf cart and thought "Wow, now I'm one of the cool people who gets to sit in a golf cart" Then Rinse came back with Mot and "Pot Limb". We were still in one of the tents and they had me sit in a chair. The three of them stood over me and started in on the reproof. Pot asked me if I wanted to be there out on the street. Huh? Why would I? Pot asked me if I'd been moking dope. I said I hadn't smoked a joint since 1973. That seemed to be answer enough. Mot started reproving me for what a failure I'd been all year, and I said, "What about how I got Wayne in the class?" and he said "That was grace!"
So then they took me up to some room and I was asked if I knew if there was a place I could go. I used the phone there and called my parents in CA to ask them if I could come home.
You know what's funny? Nobody prayed for me or ministered to me. Here I was at Corps Week with ALL of the MOST SPIRITUAL people on the planet (I say that facetiously) in one place and not one of them thought to pray or minister to their wacked-out Corps sister. To them, I was worthless because I wasn't together enough. I wasntt worthy of being there. Some people say it didn't get really bad until the 90's? This was 1982. Maybe I wouldn't have prayed or ministered either at that point if it was some one else needing it. I'm just saying that we were losing the ministry already by then.
i believe it was a "mistake" because i actually expected an honest, or at least a more considered response than the one i got!........that was my mistake!..........i believed then, and i believe now, that given the request by the person involved with vic's abuse of her, and her family, that i did the right thing..........but, the fact that i thought that there might have been a response which may have encouraged or produced some kind of positive change leading to some kind of just resolution to this deep-rooted "problen"..........or that "god's word would prevail" in this situation and the many other similar situations that were snowballing into the light of day........that was a huge mistake!..........symptomatic of the self-delusion that the "cult mindset" had poisoned my "god-consciousness" with!.......all it did was set the well organized twi spin machine into ratcheting up the pressure on those beginning to demand justice from the vic loyalists and protectors!.........but, again, "hindsight is 20/20", isn't it??
and belle!..........thanks for bringing up that thread where outandabout shared her story!..........definitely a most compelling account of what she experienced during her 15 years in twi!.............and a truly poignant example of how utterly incapable twi and its "top leadership" was, of providing any real help to its most faithful and innocent followers!...........those in dire need of at least some genuine christ-like compassion, as well as readily available professional psychiatric care!........another vivid example of the utter nonsense that comprised the "spiritual meat" of twi's core belief and "ministering" systems!!!............................peace.
....and a truly poignant example of how utterly incapable twi and its "top leadership" was, of providing any real help to its most faithful and innocent followers!...........those in dire need of at least some genuine christ-like compassion, as well as readily available professional psychiatric care!........another vivid example of the utter nonsense that comprised the "spiritual meat" of twi's core belief and "ministering" systems!!!............................peace.
"Hindsight is 20/20" …I'll say!!!! After reading your post and mulling over the rest of this thread, a couple of verses kept popping up in my head.
Matthew 9:17 NASB
"Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."
Matthew 15:14 NASB
"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
Like everyone else, I like to play Quantum Leap and troubleshoot my TWI experience with what I know and believe now…IMHO, the reason any therapeutic methods failed was due to having the sights aimed at symptoms and not the causes. For if indeed the heart of the problem was targeted – I believe the changes necessary to resolve the issues would have caused the organization as we know it to cease from existence.
I think any noble "therapeutic" efforts from within the confines of the TWI paradigm fell short on two counts: we were all blind leading the blind AND no one addressed TWI's problematic core belief system…I think most folks who left that insanity were surprised by how much clearer they saw the nature of the beast once the blinders [mindset] began to fall away…I believe a healthy paradigm and the TWI mindset are incompatible – and pouring a healthy dose of honesty, compassion, humility and sanity into that old wineskin will just make it burst.
"Hindsight is 20/20" …I'll say!!!! After reading your post and mulling over the rest of this thread, a couple of verses kept popping up in my head.
Matthew 9:17 NASB
"Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."
Matthew 15:14 NASB
"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
Like everyone else, I like to play Quantum Leap and troubleshoot my TWI experience with what I know and believe now…IMHO, the reason any therapeutic methods failed was due to having the sights aimed at symptoms and not the causes. For if indeed the heart of the problem was targeted – I believe the changes necessary to resolve the issues would have caused the organization as we know it to cease from existence.
I think any noble "therapeutic" efforts from within the confines of the TWI paradigm fell short on two counts: we were all blind leading the blind AND no one addressed TWI's problematic core belief system…I think most folks who left that insanity were surprised by how much clearer they saw the nature of the beast once the blinders [mindset] began to fall awayI believe a healthy paradigm and the TWI mindset are incompatible – and pouring a healthy dose of honesty, compassion, humility and sanity into that old wineskin will just make it burst.
Great post, T-Bone. Running on empty comes to mind when I think of how it felt to counsel or to be counseled in wayworld. I'm sure Don did his best and probably no one could have done more in that situation.
Great post, T-Bone. Running on empty comes to mind when I think of how it felt to counsel or to be counseled in wayworld. I'm sure Don did his best and probably no one could have done more in that situation.
Thanks, Water Buffalo - yup, that Jackson Browne song fits us all to a T.....And I agree - Don't Worry was - and stillis one of the good guys - I sure hope he or anyone else doesn't interpret my post as a slight against him. I just wanted to say that anyone with even the best of intentions was fighting a losing battle fromwithin the system.
..........but, the fact that i thought that there might have been a response which may have encouraged or produced some kind of positive change leading to some kind of just resolution to this deep-rooted "problen"..........or that "god's word would prevail" in this situation and the many other similar situations that were snowballing into the light of day........that was a huge mistake!........
Imagine that!...Looking for a godly response from the leaders of a "Christian ministry"...whose credo was "it is written"...
I can still hear Vic bellowing under the big top..."it's the word baby, the word the word and nothing but the word"...when actually, the "word" was twisted and perverted by his insane, self delusional, narcisstic and hedonistic views. The "word" meant whatever Vic decided it meant...Vic took the place of the absent Christ and led sincere young Christians into the bowels of depravity...
...but there are still some today who feel that Vic would be proud of them!....I think the whole bunch of them should be seeking professional help...
A word I used in describing some of the cult actions to someone else the other day ... was sublimate. I'm not sure of the exact use, but I think it fits somewhat ...
b. To divert the energy associated with (an unacceptable impulse or drive) into a personally and socially acceptable activity.
In normal society, that is a good thing usually ... but in TWI land, our impulses were sublimated to actions acceptable to the MOGFOT. It was mostly subconscious ... enforced by our belief that maybe VP was mogfot ... and at HQ especially, pushed along with the cattle prod of threats and intimidation.
Thanks, Water Buffalo - yup, that Jackson Browne song fits us all to a T.....And I agree - Don't Worry was - and stillis one of the good guys - I sure hope he or anyone else doesn't interpret my post as a slight against him. I just wanted to say that anyone with even the best of intentions was fighting a losing battle fromwithin the system.
Right. It astonishes me that someone in DW's position didn't know. But, I believe him and it helps me to believe that most people didn't know since he, of all people, didn't know for the majority of his involvement with the "ministry." It helps alleviate the shame, for lack of a better word, of having been involved with and used by such an organization. Having said that, the joy of having helped a number of people, even preventing one girl from commiting suicide one night with my WOW sister, are the kind of things I can still be proud of. I just don't talk about my involvement, ever, because of not wanting anyone to ask me the name of the ministry, lol.
I think most folks who left that insanity were surprised by how much clearer they saw the nature of the beast once the blinders [mindset] began to fall away…I believe a healthy paradigm and the TWI mindset are incompatible – and pouring a healthy dose of honesty, compassion, humility and sanity into that old wineskin will just make it burst.
Dear T-Bone,
In my mind there is wisdom in your words, but in my MOOD I'm thinking, "WINESKINS.....BUBBLES.....WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? JUST POUR IT ON AND LET 'EM BURST!
A few days ago I "shouted out" something about dancing shoes being more fun than snake boots. It seems to me that you were expecting a dance, but got a snake.
After reading your post, I said to myself, TWI was just plain down evil. I've never thought that before or said it before......but I totally believe now it was not something good gone bad, it was not something bad, it was something evil. And unfortunately, we bought it hook, line and sinker.
After reading more and more posts, I have compassion on some of the leadership. I am so sorry you have had to endure all this crap. I think my story is sometimes horrifying, but doesn't come even close to some of the leaders here.
My eyes get opened alittle more.....this process is just that.....a process of seeing a little here and alittle there to help complete the picture.
I had forgotten all about how against TWI was on the counseling aspect. How could you help, when you couldn't get help?
Right. It astonishes me that someone in DW's position didn't know. But, I believe him and it helps me to believe that most people didn't know since he, of all people, didn't know for the majority of his involvement with the "ministry." It helps alleviate the shame, for lack of a better word, of having been involved with and used by such an organization. Having said that, the joy of having helped a number of people, even preventing one girl from commiting suicide one night with my WOW sister, are the kind of things I can still be proud of. I just don't talk about my involvement, ever, because of not wanting anyone to ask me the name of the ministry, lol.
On a small scale - I'm of the opinion that God often worked through the honorable efforts of good people like Don't Worry ...or you in preventing a suicide. But in addressing the problems that plagued the whole ministry, no herculean efforts could [or should] save this whacked out cult! Of course, all this has been just my take on things, never held a key position...I was just a leaf on a mighty diseased tree….and I suppose God often worked things out in spite of the efforts of certain unscrupulous men. The aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch comes to mind - I think God was behind that grand meltdown for sure - lots of people left in that time frame - that's when my wife and I did!
Where did I get the intellectual wherewithal to leave? I dunno….God's grace, I guess. I was a wimp - so submissive - I'm still amazed I could muster up enough strength & good sense to leave when I did! God sure made it easy for us to leave - the ministry was a boiling pot of controversy & confusion - don't think our exit was even noticed.
Of my 12 years in TWI, the last part of it was spent in Family Corps training. I was a relative newbie to ministry leadership. And considering my personality type – that I wasn't suited for a managerial or pastoral role – I think if I would have gotten involved in the can of worms that Don't Worry was in the thick of – it would have more than likely fried my faith. It's not until years later at Grease Spot – that I've been able to see the insanity & moral depravity of the cult "in all its ineffable greatness and ga-lowry" – to accept that I was deceived…that I was a facilitator, blindly lending my support for the secret agenda of those bozos!...Sometimes I pray for the victims...sometimes I pray for forgiveness.
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Dot Matrix
Writing in the thought of Rummies post
The problem is mostly you are in therapy with the victim not the perp.
If vp were getting treatment then maybe someone could report him or enter him in a facility
On 2nd thought I guess a victim may want to hurt themselves or vic - but that would not involve the police
None of this involves police does it? More like mental institutions
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rhino
It is good to hear that you had encouraged many of those people to go to authorities ... too bad none of them would. With all those lined up to tell their story, it would seem there was a willingness by many to get over it. Since you had stayed to counsel these many that you had developed this relationship with, were any counseled to get the heck out of Dodge?
Without hearing a peep for a decade from HQ central about the years of abuse and sexcapades that were practiced at TWI HQ .... (all kept quiet and dealt with in house) .... I decided on doctrinal issues and POP info and some more, to leave TWI cold turkey. I told all those in my fellowship and others that I knew ... we all left ... based on doctrinal tyranny mostly.
With knowledge of heinous criminal acts, certainly some word could have been gotten out to those on the field. "Quit sending money and people ... starve the beast". And all those victims ... weren't they at least counseled to run far far away? Sorry but it just doesn't add up to me, except that the counselors and all were "still in the cult". So "out of cult" thinking was not allowed.
Since the pitchforks are out ... I don't know I need to say much more ... the confidentiality rules you stated are as I stated ... and as I said, they could at least have been encouraged to go to authorities. Apparently you did that ... that is a lot of victims ... not one wanted to prosecute individually or as a group ... too bad.
I never was accusing you Don, but while you would be breaking a law to reveal something against their will, you'd also be breaking the law if there were children or elderly or mentally incompetent in danger, and you did not "report it" ... if you were acting in the counselor capacity. So I guess at least there were no children involved.
Were people counseled to leave HQ ... leave TWI ... "there is rampant unrepentant abuse occurring here" .... ? All this professional counseling going on, but victims were continuing in TWI .... with all its villains. I never claimed to be any spiritual guru, but getting people away from TWI, out of the corpse, out of TWI would have seemed obvious with all that knowledge ...
ALL "my people" left immediately ... with far less knowledge than was available at HQ central ... so sorry if it just doesn't add up that all these professional therapeutic relationships were ongoing, with people not getting out ... staying at HQ in the bowels of the beast, where counseling and abuse could continue.
The first response I heard about why more was not done was maybe the most honest "I was in a cult".
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George Aar
It's always so easy to sit back in one's comfiest chair and pontificate about how the doer of deeds should have done better, isn't it?
And, as the saying goes, when you're up to your azz in alligators, it's sometimes a little difficult to remember that your objective was to drain the swamp...
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RumRunner
George if you got any grumpier you'd be me
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RumRunner
NP - however in after thought I realized there is also an exception in CA...hangs head for not being thorough (or was that throughly?). There are only two court approved reasons for divorce in CA; irreconcilable differences and incurable insanity (although it would seem to me that incurable insanity falls under irreconcilable differences). My attorney tried to explain the difference. I think, but do NOT recall exactly, that the incurable insanity argument is in the case where one of the spouses has already been diagnosed as such and hence there is no mediation. Not sure how pertinent that is to this thread but wanted to make sure I was as complete as possible...comes with being a scientist I suppose.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Holy crap...I just now read all five pages of this thread...and it took me a while because you guys type slow.
DWBH...Your opening post was one of the most revealing and informative posts that I have ever read on the GSC...
Some great responses...those of us who lived through this and understand what really happened are dumbstruck by the brutal disregard for people's lives, the self serving hedonistic ventures of Vic and his henchmen, and the truth of what these con men did. I'm thankful for those who escaped with little damage to their lives...but unfortunately, there were far too many who suffered greatly.
Any decent, compassionate, caring person has to ask...what kind of monster was Victor Paul Wierwille?...did you say grand daughter?...this guy was living in the septic tank of human morality.
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now I see
I think hindsight is 20/20, in the instances of confronting the mogs and going further.
I also think the organization, vpw and the others involved in the sex practices were ruthless in their dealings with the victims whenever they were confronted with being outed.
I think vic earned his chops in that regard way before twi when he got his secretary in Van Wert pregnant. I don't believe for a minute that those leaders in charge of twi just became so viscous overnight in the '80's and '90's, I think they learned it from vic and coward long before that, the ruthlessness, the expendability of people, the purposeful usurary of women for sexual gratification, the humiliation and the disparagement of the individual, the playing of the "possesed" card, the supression of any stories leaking out, the refusal to answer direct questions concerning any victim, the refusal to talk to the victims if confrontational, the use of armed thugs, the use of rape drugs, the use of attack dogs to put the teeth behind their words, the protection of the ministry's and leader's image-the ministry be not blamed at all costs, the organization and the leaders being the most important and not the individual, and the swapping of love of God for corporate integrity. I believe all these things were born of VPW first and foremost, and any and all were used against the individual if anyone got out of controll and became confrontational or liable to talk.
I believe this is exactly why no one went to the cops, why vic needed body guards and dogs, why some were driven to committing suicide in dispair, and why no single victim's protests ever saw the light of day.
I also think most still believed the ministry was from and of God, that they still believed it was a ministry of deliverance because they personally had been delivered in their beginning years in the ministry, believed God is what drew them to the ministry in the first place and therefore were not after the destruction of twi or those in charge. Rather, I think those involved wanted to help fix it or just leave it and not wage war.
Back then, I don't think everyone had really put 2 and 2 together and determined the Word we were all taught and believed was so twisted and convoluted, and from a plagerized cocktail of sources. That came much later, a victims head would have been swimming just from the betrayal of vp, et al, especially since those of us in the Corpse all thought of the ministry as furthering our purpose in life, and the vehicle for word over the world, etc., where else could you go, what else could ever measure up to that cult status?
I also think that most female victims would internalize their feelings and blame themselves as a majority of sex victims do, the need to set it right and lash out at the purpetrator might be a male thing to do, but not necesarily what females do as victims of something so intimate and damaging to themselves.
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now I see
Hey Groucho, I know for a fact that king okie did the same as vic - to teenage daughters. So gross and disgusting, the guy should be roasted over a pit.
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waterbuffalo
Just to clarify our credentials, as Don has stated, wc and clergy were not professional healthcare practitioners nor counselors. The above paragraph pretty much sums it up as far as our "training" or "credentials" go.
For example, I can hang out my shingle, claim to be an attorney, and "counsel" clients, if I can get them and even charge them. But, if one of my clients says he or she is going to kill someone and I don't inform the authorities, I can't be disbarred because I'm not an attorney!
Thanks for the topic, Don.
I never knew you and your family went through that--under house arrest. For gawd's sake. If I'd only known, I'd have been outta there b4 '89...I am sooooo sorry you all went through that.
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rascal
That is so sad...so sick. I remember how staunchly I defended the ministry and these guys. How offended I was when anyone tried to tell me that the ministry was a cult...or that vp was anything other than the most kindest, generous, noble, gallant hero in the world...
God what a fool I was. Not only was he fornicating his brains out, committing adultery...but pushing perversions on mothers daughters and grand daughters...it was so much worse than anyone...even the most vehement of twi attackers ever realized :(
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rhino
You might be in trouble for claiming to be an attorney ... and though not disbarred, there may be a requirement to inform authorities to prevent a crime, even if you are not an attorney. I'm not sure ... it would probably not be prosecuted, unless you were complicit somehow ... I'm guessing.
But I don't know what shingle Don or others that were counseling hung out.
What appears to me is many went to a TWI executive with claims of serious abuse. VP was confronted ... based on some of that knowledge. I think Dot listed the numerous TWI employees she went to ... at the time, those that did nothing maybe were culpable, I don't know. Those that actively helped hide her story or intimidate her from telling, were more guilty.
But it is the action of a TWI executive that I wonder about ... apparently Don was not given knowledge in that capacity, but as a counselor/minister. I think the counselor rules also apply to a minister ... if there is an expectation of privacy. So while he might encourage them to go forward .. he could not without their agreement.
But if they went to a TWI executive to get the actions stopped, that seems a different situation to me. So who were the counselors and ministers and who were the executives ... some were both ... but some executives deflected witnesses. Some witnesses were sent out of TWI town on a rail ... which was a very coordinated TWI org action.
Also was it possible to generally inform the 20,000 or so "on the field" without giving specifics ... without breaking any trust? That probably would have required an attorney outside of TWI. For years people were still sending money and people .. with no knowledge from top TWI execs of the high level of corruption.
But I believe that the priority was still to keep it quiet, because HQ was still sacred ground ... it was considered better to try to keep the ministry intact ... right up through the yak twig ... after which all those therapeutic relationships abruptly ended for any that left. The rest of TWI carried on with their "adultery is okey dokey" doctrine ...
I'm glad it wasn't me in that situation ... but it is good to review. Threats and intimidation by power figures happen all the time in the real world ... but the cult think ... "keeping the living Word alive" head trip is not involved ... though there are all kinds of head trips.
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JeffSjo
Dear DWBH,
Just a couple of things.
Do I understand you correctly that you consider going to Dr. about the problems a mistake? I think it was honest and brave, maybe even necessary. (TWO CENTS) What would have better in your opinion?
Again let me say thank you. I remember thinking that the yak twig was our best hope. That is what I was told. But it is very sad that the truth and integrity was undercut in such a nasty fashion. And over such nasty business.
(edited for spelling, and a little was added too.)
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Belle
If you want to see first hand what TWI taught leadership to do regarding really helping people, read this incredible story of survival:
There I was
It's not about sexual abuse, but it is about abuse and neglect of someone obviously in need of some professional help.
A couple of snips:
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DontWorryBeHappy
hiya JeffSjo!
i believe it was a "mistake" because i actually expected an honest, or at least a more considered response than the one i got!........that was my mistake!..........i believed then, and i believe now, that given the request by the person involved with vic's abuse of her, and her family, that i did the right thing..........but, the fact that i thought that there might have been a response which may have encouraged or produced some kind of positive change leading to some kind of just resolution to this deep-rooted "problen"..........or that "god's word would prevail" in this situation and the many other similar situations that were snowballing into the light of day........that was a huge mistake!..........symptomatic of the self-delusion that the "cult mindset" had poisoned my "god-consciousness" with!.......all it did was set the well organized twi spin machine into ratcheting up the pressure on those beginning to demand justice from the vic loyalists and protectors!.........but, again, "hindsight is 20/20", isn't it??
and belle!..........thanks for bringing up that thread where outandabout shared her story!..........definitely a most compelling account of what she experienced during her 15 years in twi!.............and a truly poignant example of how utterly incapable twi and its "top leadership" was, of providing any real help to its most faithful and innocent followers!...........those in dire need of at least some genuine christ-like compassion, as well as readily available professional psychiatric care!........another vivid example of the utter nonsense that comprised the "spiritual meat" of twi's core belief and "ministering" systems!!!............................peace.
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T-Bone
"Hindsight is 20/20" …I'll say!!!! After reading your post and mulling over the rest of this thread, a couple of verses kept popping up in my head.
Matthew 9:17 NASB
"Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved."
Matthew 15:14 NASB
"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
Like everyone else, I like to play Quantum Leap and troubleshoot my TWI experience with what I know and believe now…IMHO, the reason any therapeutic methods failed was due to having the sights aimed at symptoms and not the causes. For if indeed the heart of the problem was targeted – I believe the changes necessary to resolve the issues would have caused the organization as we know it to cease from existence.
I think any noble "therapeutic" efforts from within the confines of the TWI paradigm fell short on two counts: we were all blind leading the blind AND no one addressed TWI's problematic core belief system…I think most folks who left that insanity were surprised by how much clearer they saw the nature of the beast once the blinders [mindset] began to fall away…I believe a healthy paradigm and the TWI mindset are incompatible – and pouring a healthy dose of honesty, compassion, humility and sanity into that old wineskin will just make it burst.
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waterbuffalo
Great post, T-Bone. Running on empty comes to mind when I think of how it felt to counsel or to be counseled in wayworld. I'm sure Don did his best and probably no one could have done more in that situation.
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T-Bone
Thanks, Water Buffalo - yup, that Jackson Browne song fits us all to a T.....And I agree - Don't Worry was - and still is one of the good guys - I sure hope he or anyone else doesn't interpret my post as a slight against him. I just wanted to say that anyone with even the best of intentions was fighting a losing battle from within the system.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Imagine that!...Looking for a godly response from the leaders of a "Christian ministry"...whose credo was "it is written"...
I can still hear Vic bellowing under the big top..."it's the word baby, the word the word and nothing but the word"...when actually, the "word" was twisted and perverted by his insane, self delusional, narcisstic and hedonistic views. The "word" meant whatever Vic decided it meant...Vic took the place of the absent Christ and led sincere young Christians into the bowels of depravity...
...but there are still some today who feel that Vic would be proud of them!....I think the whole bunch of them should be seeking professional help...
snow on the gas pumps...good grief!
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rhino
A word I used in describing some of the cult actions to someone else the other day ... was sublimate. I'm not sure of the exact use, but I think it fits somewhat ...
b. To divert the energy associated with (an unacceptable impulse or drive) into a personally and socially acceptable activity.
In normal society, that is a good thing usually ... but in TWI land, our impulses were sublimated to actions acceptable to the MOGFOT. It was mostly subconscious ... enforced by our belief that maybe VP was mogfot ... and at HQ especially, pushed along with the cattle prod of threats and intimidation.
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waterbuffalo
Right. It astonishes me that someone in DW's position didn't know. But, I believe him and it helps me to believe that most people didn't know since he, of all people, didn't know for the majority of his involvement with the "ministry." It helps alleviate the shame, for lack of a better word, of having been involved with and used by such an organization. Having said that, the joy of having helped a number of people, even preventing one girl from commiting suicide one night with my WOW sister, are the kind of things I can still be proud of. I just don't talk about my involvement, ever, because of not wanting anyone to ask me the name of the ministry, lol.
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JeffSjo
Dear T-Bone,
In my mind there is wisdom in your words, but in my MOOD I'm thinking, "WINESKINS.....BUBBLES.....WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? JUST POUR IT ON AND LET 'EM BURST!
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JeffSjo
Dear DWBH,
A few days ago I "shouted out" something about dancing shoes being more fun than snake boots. It seems to me that you were expecting a dance, but got a snake.
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newlife
Thanks for Posting this DWBH.........
After reading your post, I said to myself, TWI was just plain down evil. I've never thought that before or said it before......but I totally believe now it was not something good gone bad, it was not something bad, it was something evil. And unfortunately, we bought it hook, line and sinker.
After reading more and more posts, I have compassion on some of the leadership. I am so sorry you have had to endure all this crap. I think my story is sometimes horrifying, but doesn't come even close to some of the leaders here.
My eyes get opened alittle more.....this process is just that.....a process of seeing a little here and alittle there to help complete the picture.
I had forgotten all about how against TWI was on the counseling aspect. How could you help, when you couldn't get help?
God Bless You DWBH!!!
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T-Bone
On a small scale - I'm of the opinion that God often worked through the honorable efforts of good people like Don't Worry ...or you in preventing a suicide. But in addressing the problems that plagued the whole ministry, no herculean efforts could [or should] save this whacked out cult! Of course, all this has been just my take on things, never held a key position...I was just a leaf on a mighty diseased tree….and I suppose God often worked things out in spite of the efforts of certain unscrupulous men. The aftermath of Passing of the Patriarch comes to mind - I think God was behind that grand meltdown for sure - lots of people left in that time frame - that's when my wife and I did!
Where did I get the intellectual wherewithal to leave? I dunno….God's grace, I guess. I was a wimp - so submissive - I'm still amazed I could muster up enough strength & good sense to leave when I did! God sure made it easy for us to leave - the ministry was a boiling pot of controversy & confusion - don't think our exit was even noticed.
Of my 12 years in TWI, the last part of it was spent in Family Corps training. I was a relative newbie to ministry leadership. And considering my personality type – that I wasn't suited for a managerial or pastoral role – I think if I would have gotten involved in the can of worms that Don't Worry was in the thick of – it would have more than likely fried my faith. It's not until years later at Grease Spot – that I've been able to see the insanity & moral depravity of the cult "in all its ineffable greatness and ga-lowry" – to accept that I was deceived…that I was a facilitator, blindly lending my support for the secret agenda of those bozos!...Sometimes I pray for the victims...sometimes I pray for forgiveness.
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